From Bullying Gays to Gays who bully...

[SlaverTickler]

Found this, looks like it goes both ways. Not that either is right, but this is really Haynes.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56577
http://digg.com/news/offbeat/Lesbian_Gang_Targets_Young_Schoolgirls_for_Rape_and_Sodomy
http://www.tldm.org/news10/lesbiangangsrapinggirls.htm

And this is how GLAAD responds
http://americansfortruth.com/news/m...ad-tries-to-block-airing-of-news-segment.html

In it's defence older members of the GTO group claim they came together in prison to support and look out for each other. However any group that has the words Taking Over in it's name leaves a sinister ringing in my ear.

 

[Dave Pavet]

bullied by a girl gang...where do I sign up?

 

[LD_Tickler]

The world is full of pyschos and bad apples. Why it surprises some people that this fact extends to every pocket of humanity, I'll never know.

 

[MrMidnyte]

wow

 

[gitcheycoocoo]

All bully's need to be bullied.

 

[goddess_nemesis]

Since those articles are 3 years old, I don't know how much of a concern that really is now.

But bullying is wrong no matter who does it.

 

[sasaxrah]

Um, looking at the sources, I'm calling bullshit. This is not real, nor is it in any way comparable to the bullying gay kids experience every day. The majority of gay kids report being uncomfortable or feeling unsafe at school. It is inconsiderate to post this fake news that obscures the real issue.

 

[emilyemilyemily]

Um, looking at the sources, I'm calling bullshit. This is not real, nor is it in any way comparable to the bullying gay kids experience every day. The majority of gay kids report being uncomfortable or feeling unsafe at school. It is inconsiderate to post this fake news that obscures the real issue.

this. also, try harder to spell things right. thaaaanks!

 

[Capnmad]

A while back, a coupla' (Literally. ...two.) guys stood in front of a polling station in Philadelphia. One of 'em had a night stick. They never stopped anyone from going in, but they were perceived accurately as being potentially intimidating, and they were removed by Philly police. End of story? No. The right wing media spun this into a national wave of The New Black Panther Party that was threatening democracy everywhere. Those two guys do get around, don't they?

The kernel of truth in the story you've posted is probably that people of similar identifiers tend to form social groups -- including gangs -- and so, among black, white, hispanic, and asian gangs -- the vast majority of which are straight -- there are probably a few gangs which may center on a different orientation. Further, tight-knit, insulated social groups like gangs, cults, some religious movements, and some sets of political ideologues have a tendency to say and do bad things, sometimes because of the apparent benefits of unethical behavior, but more often simply because their points of view remain unchallenged because of a lack of opposition within the group, and the echo chamber effect among people all thinking the same thing.

But this is not news.

Also not news, but bothersome and inflammatory is how one example can get blown up and used for political purposes to conflate a sexual orientation with criminal activity.

When a gang-related rape occurs, do we suggest that it happened because the gang was a "straight" gang, and boy oh boy, you've gotta' watch out for them straights? Of course not. We note that they're gang members -- which, given what I said above about insular social groups -- says enough.

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Sadly, the great thrust of politically-motivated media today isn't to raise people of any political stripe -- even their own -- to a higher standard of behavior. It is only to create false equivalencies so they don't have to. In this way, they hold themselves and their followers only to the standard of the lowest common denominator. Continuing in this way improves nothing, but it's an effective deflection tactic...

People wanna complain about Guantanamo detainees? Point to North Korea's abuses. People complain about massive political donations from unknown sources? Find even one example of nondisclosure on the other side, and spin it into seeming like it makes everything equal.

Sexual orientation-based bullying provokes a rash of suicides? Find even one example of someone bullying from the other side, and you'll have people post the story to internet forums to bait the reasonable into saying that bullying in any fashion is unacceptable, while glossing over the matters of false equivalency and disproportion. Thus, the false equivalency appears true, people assume everything's even, "what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander" and what not, and move on. But that's not reality. Numbers alone tell you that.

With homosexuals comprising only about 10-12% of the population, the chance of being genuinely bullied or otherwise threatened by a homosexual or homosexual group, while feeling like you've no defenders and no recourse (while among the 88-90% majority), is staggeringly small. For a 10% minority to feel threatened, however -- especially one that is fairly regularly demonized by the majority religion in the country, and against whom there remain laws against serving one's country, marriage, and even against intimacy in some states -- that threat is daily. It is palpable. And it is why there is a suicide epidemic among gay teens and those teens who are simply accused of being gay.

One might take note of the lack of suicides of straight teen victims of gay bullies? Or perhaps that might endanger that whole false equivalency some folks want to create...



Anyway, here's some links I turned up on the story you posted about. I'm sure a desire for fairness and balance will compel folks to read them:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hangi...+terrorizing+America+with+pink...-a0168283564

http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform...wse-all-issues/2007/fall/the-oh-really-factor

 

[Dave Pavet]

Look at it generically, it's like "ANIMAL FARM"...When the oppressed become the majority there is a chance they will become the oppressors ... It's a math thing.

 

[Mephistopheles]

It's O'Reilly. You can't honestly call that a credible source.

 

[MrMacphisto]

A gay bully... Well, Perez Hilton might fit that description when it comes to a certain pageant he was involved in.

Beyond that, I know some lesbians can be pushy -- not from personal experience, but I've known a few straight girls that were bothered by some of the more butch lesbians they encountered.

It just goes to show that bullying is not something limited to a particular sexuality. With any group, there are bad seeds.

 

[SlaverTickler]

Um, looking at the sources, I'm calling bullshit. This is not real, nor is it in any way comparable to the bullying gay kids experience every day. The majority of gay kids report being uncomfortable or feeling unsafe at school. It is inconsiderate to post this fake news that obscures the real issue.

So on the outside chance that there is any truth to it (maybe you are right, who knows for sure) a 10 year old girl being sexualy assualted by a group of adult lesbians is less important then homosexuals being abused by hetrosexuals? How so?

You wouldn't happen to have a personal bias in all this would you?

 

[SlaverTickler]

With homosexuals comprising only about 10-12% of the population, the chance of being genuinely bullied or otherwise threatened by a homosexual or homosexual group, while feeling like you've no defenders and no recourse (while among the 88-90% majority), is staggeringly small. For a 10% minority to feel threatened, however -- especially one that is fairly regularly demonized by the majority religion in the country, and against whom there remain laws against serving one's country, marriage, and even against intimacy in some states -- that threat is daily. It is palpable. And it is why there is a suicide epidemic among gay teens and those teens who are simply accused of being gay.

Look I am no fan of Orialy at all, anybody who bashes Jenna Jameson is the enemy. However I believe that anybody can become a bully under the right/wrong conditions. I grew up being bullied, there were times in my life when I thought about killing myself as well. The way bullying effected me was in some ways positive because it made me not want to put other people through the same situation. On the other side of the coin there are people who decide because it happened to them in gives them free reign to do it to other people. To presume that it is above a group of lesbians to be sexuly abusive is compleatly ubsered, it would be like saying Christians and Jews can't be terrorists.. People are people, and people can be bullies. Stuff like that isn't limited by Gender, race, religion, colour, creed, or sexual orientation.

By the way, I took a look at you links, and it says that the numbers are exageraited, but that homosexual gangs do actually exist. So sarasax can get off her soap box because no group, culture, or gender is above doing bad things to other people.

 

[Capnmad]

Fun with words.

I know you're not addressing me, and I answer on no one's behalf but my own, but this is my answer.

So on the outside chance that their is any truth to it (maybe you are right, who know for sure) a 10 year old girl being sexualy assualted by a group of adult lesbians is less important then homosexuals being abused by hetrosexuals? How so?

Clearly, you're fishing for the "it's equally horrible" answer. Easy to get on an inflammatory question like this. But you shot yourself in the foot in getting it, by asking a question that accidentally alludes to reality...

You get explicit in your description of the abuse of "a 10 year old girl being sexualy assualted [sic] by a group of adult lesbians", but then, for some reason, become more vague in your description of 1.) victim, 2.) form of abuse and 3.) perpetrator (hat trick!) when you mention "homosexuals being abused by hetrosexuals". It's useful to do this to subtlely humanize one set of victims and relatively dehumanize another. Points for debate tactics.

But you slipped up when you mentioned "homosexuals" -- you used a plural for the victims.

So, assuming the abuses we're talking about carry equal weight, your question, Slaver, seems to insinuate that the abuse of one heterosexual is equivalent to the abuse of multiple (number unknown -- perhaps countless) homosexuals, as though gays are only worth a fraction of a straight.

Do you really think that's the case, Slaver? Do you really mean to ask people to say that when it comes to instances of abuse, that a homosexual is only worth a fraction of a heterosexual? Do you really mean for them to agree with that?

So to answer your question as stated, and as a utilitarian and a pragmatist, yes, it is less important.

Show me the epidemic of straight kids suffering abuses -- mental, physical, and sexual -- and killing themselves -- under large numbers of gay abusers and overwhelming numbers of indifferent gay bystanders, and then you'll have an argument for equivalence. Until then, this years-old debunked story is a distraction from a real and growing problem.

 

[Capnmad]

By the way, I took a look at you links, and it says that the numbers are exageraited, but that homosexual gangs do actually exist. So sarasax can get off her soap box because no group, culture, or gender is above doing bad things to other people.

She never said anything like you suggest.

 

[SlaverTickler]

I know you're not addressing me, and I answer on no one's behalf but my own, but this is my answer.



Clearly, you're fishing for the "it's equally horrible" answer. Easy to get on an inflammatory question like this. But you shot yourself in the foot in getting it, by asking a question that accidentally alludes to reality...

You get explicit in your description of the abuse of "a 10 year old girl being sexually assaulted [sic] by a group of adult lesbians", but then, for some reason, become more diffuse and vague in your description of 1.) victim, 2.) form of abuse and 3.) perpetrator (hat trick!) when you mention "homosexuals being abused by heterosexuals". It's useful to do this to subtly humanize one set of victims and relatively dehumanize another. Points for debate tactics.

But you slipped up when you mentioned "homosexuals" -- you used a plural for the victims.

So, assuming the abuses we're talking about carry equal weight, your question, Slaver, seems to insinuate that the abuse of one heterosexual is equivalent to the abuse of multiple (number unknown -- perhaps countless) homosexuals, as though gays are only worth a fraction of a straight.

Do you really think that's the case, Slaver? Do you really mean to ask people to say that when it comes to instances of abuse, that a homosexual is only worth a fraction of a heterosexual? Do you really mean for them to agree with that?

So to answer your question as stated, and as a utilitarian and a pragmatist, yes, it is less important.

Show me the epidemic of straight kids suffering abuses -- mental, physical, and sexual -- and killing themselves -- under large numbers of gay abusers and overwhelming numbers of indifferent gay bystanders, and then you'll have an argument for equivalence. Until then, this years-old debunked story is a distraction from a real and growing problem.

No I don't think a homosexual victim of harassment is less then a heterosexual victim of harassment. I used the the general term of Homosexual because as of late there have been several incidents involving members of that community in the news. No one isn't anymore important then the other in my eyes, because people are people. Just like a group of white kids waiting outside a high school gym to beat up a back kid isn't any less disgusting then a group of black kids waiting outside a high school gym the beat up a white kid, contrary to what some singers or social activist might think.

Let me pose this to you Cap, if gays weren't a minority group, would they be getting this much coverage. It's not like that kid a few weeks back is the first victim of bullying to kill himself, but I didn't see any Ricky Martin doing PSA adds for the ones who weren't gay.

 

[SlaverTickler]

She never said anything like you suggest.

Well it read that way to me. She basicly implied that their was no way it could be true. She also implied that when it happens to a straight person it matters less then when it happens to a gay person, so basically she can shove it.

 

[Capnmad]

Let me pose this to you Cap, if gays weren't a minority group, would they be getting this much coverage. It's not like that kid a few weeks back is the first victim of bullying to kill himself, but I didn't see any Ricky Martin doing PSA adds for the ones who weren't gay.

One cannot blame a victim or victim set, nor diminish their suffering contingent on the whims of the media that cover them, or the whims of celebrities making PSAs, so it's rather irrelevant.

Nor can one necessarily attribute said whims to the minority status. A while back, the media trend seemed to fetishize the disappearance/abductions of young, light-haired white girls, but ignored the similar disappearances of black girls.

Did the white girls get the coverage because of the minority status of white folks?

 

[SlaverTickler]

One cannot blame a victim or victim set, nor diminish their suffering contingent on the whims of the media that cover them, or the whims of celebrities making PSAs, so it's rather irrelevant.

Nor can one necessarily attribute said whims to the minority status. A while back, the media trend seemed to fetishize the disappearance/abductions of young, light-haired white girls, but ignored the similar disappearances of black girls.

Did the white girls get the coverage because of the minority status of white folks?

I'm not blaming the victim, and if you had read my posts on other thread regarding the topic of gays being bullied you would know. And I can necessarily attribute it to minority status... in fact as far as the media coverage goes that's exactly what I am doing. The example you give isn't a matter of race, it's a matter of money. If a wealthy black persons child went missing you don't think it would take priority over a middle class white kid? By the way, I'm from Toronto, not Nova Scotia, we never made people sit on the back of the bus here.

You can get down off your soap box now too.

 

[Capnmad]

The example you give isn't a matter of race, it's a matter of money.

You can parse these things so exactingly? Show us your method.

You can get down off your soap box now too.

I'd rather stand on something clean, thanks. The soap's good for that.

 

[SlaverTickler]

You can parse these things so exactingly? Show us your method.

Since the burden of proof falls to the prosecution I will ask you to prove to me of any time when a wealthy black family has been over looked for a middle or lower class white family.

I'd rather stand on something clean, thanks. The soap's good for that.

Soap is good for cleaning, but Soap boxes tend to be sullied once stepped on by thos who would blather their propaganda.

 

[Capnmad]

Since the burden of proof falls to the prosecution I will ask you to prove to me of any time when a wealthy black family has been over looked for a middle or lower class white family.

That's the argument you want to prosecute. I never claimed wealth had anything to do with the coverage one way or the other. You did. Prove it. Show your method.

Soap is good for cleaning, but Soap boxes tend to be sullied once stepped on by this who would blather their propaganda.

Yeah, the "propaganda" of nondiscrimination, people being equal, pragmatism and the greatest good for the greatest number. It's practically communism, eh?

 

[sasaxrah]

Uh, wow.

So on the outside chance that there is any truth to it (maybe you are right, who knows for sure) a 10 year old girl being sexualy assualted by a group of adult lesbians is less important then homosexuals being abused by hetrosexuals? How so

Find me a credible news source confirming that this is actually something we need to look out for --- one link from someone who isn't Bill O'Reilly or a group linked to the religious right. That's my point - your sources are terrible. This thing is 3 years old, and I never heard about it, nor any follow-up. This coming from someone who follows the news religiously.

You wouldn't happen to have a personal bias in all this would you?

We all have our "biases." Mine doesn't use right-wing media to discuss a non-issue, blow it out of proportion, then use it to somehow say it's equal to the epidemic of teenage gay suicides.

Well it read that way to me. She basicly implied that their was no way it could be true. She also implied that when it happens to a straight person it matters less then when it happens to a gay person, so basically she can shove it.

Who said this? Ninety percent of the people most important to me are straight, so how would that make sense? Nowhere in the subtext of anything I've ever written, my 2000 or so posts, says this. All I said was that you can't take a fake news story, quote bullshit sources, then say it's the same as the actual legitimate problem happening in almost every school in the country.

I'm not on a soapbox, and I didn't start this in the first place. I felt I needed to voice dissent since the other comments previously didn't challenge what I found to be bullshit.

 

[AmericaRocks]

Um, looking at the sources, I'm calling bullshit. This is not real, nor is it in any way comparable to the bullying gay kids experience every day. The majority of gay kids report being uncomfortable or feeling unsafe at school. It is inconsiderate to post this fake news that obscures the real issue.

This.

And spreading this sort of press around is just going to cause more hostility towards gays. I was bullied a lot in grade school, and after school shootings became the latest scare, I was alienated and picked on even more by my peers because they saw me as threatening. And I can see "news" like this causing the same type of thing. So as a bisexual girl who many people find a bit intimidating, I can't help but read this and be a little scared.