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God: Perfect or Kinda Not?

Eh, Prime, ever thought of combining a Perfect God with the notion of Free Will? Its not pretty. Think about it. A Perfect god knows everything, and created everything, just like the bible says so. Ok, thats kewl, until you actualy impliment this into reality: God knows how everything is going to happaen, *and* set it all in motion in the first place. Everything you do now, from typing the keys to looking at the screen to thinking a thought, God knows about, and he caused it to happen. So although you think you have Free Will, you are in fact casualy determined in everything you do, and your life is a process of events that you cannot change.

Again I say it: A perfect God cannot exist.

AT
 
good points, but i look at it this way. you either believe he's perfect or not. once you begin to doubt God, then why should you follow what he has to say? you will think that since he isnt perfect, why must i follow this "being" without question. at that point, you do not have "faith" in God. therefore, you might as well say that God doesnt exist. there can be no "somewhat perfect" God. he is, or he isnt.

go back to my last paragraph. do you really want to take that chance? we Christians have nothing to lose do we? but those who dont believe in hell after death, that sure is a big risk isnt it? because if you're wrong, well........
 
TklDuo-Ann said:
Now that I have a bit of time, I thought I'd finally respond to this thread. However, I'm responding to Bella's intended topic and NOT the rash of side issues that got dragged in.


Ah, c'mon, Annie! Ya knowwwwwww ya wanna! 😛 (waits for teacher to turn towards blackboard, then pegs hastily fashioned ball of tape at ya) 😛 😉 🙄


TklDuo-Ann said:
Good topic, Bella. Too bad it got off track.

You say that as if it's unusual... 🙄
 
Psycho said:
I am not your son No I am not saying that. Saten is a fallen angle. GOD could destroy him at any time but he alows him to live and do what he does. Just like GOD could make us all worship him. However he wants you to love him so he gives you free will.
Psycho

Perhaps, but, if the general accepted dogma of Christianity are to be taken literally, this free will amounts to "You are free to chose any path you wish.. you are also free to roast in hell!"

I don't buy this approach at all. I cannot reconcile a "Loving God" with the assertion that there will be some torture chamber in god's basement that will last for all eternity.

Hitler lived for what, 50 some off years? he was a schmuck for 12, but, his sentence will be to roast in hell forever the same as "Jane Doe" who was a nice girl who died at 18 (or whatever age) in a car wreck, took care of her family and friends, gave to the poor, taught children, gave blood, really made a positive difference in people's lives, etc etc., whose only real fault was not accepting Christ. Her sentence.. "Roast in hell!"

Yeah, Jane Doe is certainly as evil as Hitler and most certainly needs to be tortured forever in flames that will never burn out or ever actually destroy her to give her relief.

There are some serious problems with man's explanations of God. Sorry, there is no way to reconcile that a hell exists, not unless you want to portray God as a torturer. Okay, He is a loving torturer and tormentor.


Now, what I do believe, is that if there is an actual God, that he/she/it is nothing like what any of the world's religions portray. Christ said is best when he gave his two "commandments"..

"Love God with all your hear soul and mind"
"Love your neighbor as yourself"

Those are words which can make one's life more productive.


TD
 
marketing

primetime said:
go back to my last paragraph. do you really want to take that chance? we Christians have nothing to lose do we? but those who dont believe in hell after death, that sure is a big risk isnt it? because if you're wrong, well........

Actually, there are at least two other very popular religious which claim a similar exculsivity to the "one true path" and proclaim "all others will be damned" etc. Those two are Judaism and Islam. (However I'm sure there are plenty more around, since there are sooo many religions out there.)

So again, everyone's gambling if you take that stance. How would any of us feel if we died only to discover the "one true path" was different than the one we subscribed to....or ever heard of for that matter?
 
Prime...that last paragraph in your last reply, about not taking the chance to not beleive in God: Its known as Pascals Wager. To believe in God has more upsides than to disaffirm and become the athiest or agnostic. And its a very poor argument indeed. To suggest that you must beleive in God because, if he does exist you'll go to heaven, and if you dont then you've lost nothing, and to not beleive in him is to risk damnation, is preying upon peoples fears. It offers you *no* rational argument for beleiving in Him, merely a veiled threat.

And as for a "kinda perfect" god...of course there can be. He, or It, can just be an extremely powerful being, with a vast (but not complete) amount of knowledge at its disposal. In fact, we only require God to be the First Mover: The causer of the Big Bang which set it all into motion. From that point on he is the chessmaster: He knows every possible move that can be made in any given circumstance, but this does not mean that he directly governs what the actual move is to be. Its a perfection of knowledge, you see...

AT
 
Some of you people are making Baal very upset..... I don't want to be around when he comes looking for you!
 
Damn...I got into this one a bit late. Sorry I didn't bother to read all of the responses. I'm still going to present my thoughts. First, I'd like to refer to a short composition I did after this past Christmas, following a debate between myself and my sister, and my father and stepmother. If anyone feels like checking it out, click the logo in my sig. Look near the top of the index page for the heading that begins Attn: Dad & Deb in particular. The composition is more about my arguments for accepting the beliefs of others rather than my specific beliefs as far as God is concerned, which I will put forth now:

My theory is that "God", the one referred to in many religions, exists, kind of. Not as a perfect being, but rather an entire race of extraterrestrials whose intelligence is beyond our comprehension. I believe our creation was of a scientific nature. And so were all of the "miracles" described in religion. The only reason the events were viewed as miracles was because we were unable to comprehend them. The example I give for this is, relate it to a dog and a human being. A dog sees you turn on a light switch, and suddenly there is light, which, as far as that dog knows, you created "magically". Such was the relationship between us and our creators. What followed was misinterpretation, and out of that came religion. I believe the only "perfect" being was what I think existed at the very beginning...the sum of all matter and energy. As far as that goes, to say it still exists would be like shattering a window, and saying it's still there. It depends on how you look at it. Parts of this being are everywhere, in everything...would this, then, be God?
 
IMHO

"Um, why do so many people believe that God's way is always the 'right' way? Why is He considered the end-all be-all of righteousness?"

I know Christ through his influence in my life, and his endless knack of bailing me out when I needed to be. At least thats the way I see it. I honestly believe that I wouldn't be here right now, or I would be a very bad person if it wasn't for that influence.
I believe his way (not the way of men) is the perfect way for us, because he is the only spec of light and guidance in an otherwise dark world. Unlike many "christians" (I use the term loosley because it was one coined by the Romans when they were executing followers of Christ) I can't tell you the Bible is infallible (Emperor Constantine chose which books went into the New Testament, and left many of the so-called "gnostic gospels" out). It was written and put together by men after all, and men are indeed fallible. I still believe it is the most amazing book ever written, although man's interpetation of it (More appropriatley their misuse of it) has made alot of people cringe at the mention of it. I don't think it's the book's fault personally.

"We *are* talking about a being that goes around drowning folks and causing frog rain and plagues when He gets ticked, after all. If your mom threw frogs at you I doubt you'd trust her judgement about your life."

The Wrath of God? In some cases. A natural occurence in others. Let's stop and consider why God would get so pissed off, I'll use the same example you did: "causing frog rains and plaugues". The Israelites we're put into slavery by the Egyptians, and continuosley worked to death, beaten, tortured, starved, and what have you. To put it bluntly: Dad got pissed. Let's not forget too that the egyptians were warned prior to this. Let's also not forget that the plagues were mild before they were severe. They had plenty of warning as to what would happen if they continued to fail to "let my people go". And also if someone harmed your children I'm certain you'd throw much more then a frog at them to start with. I think God showed great restraint in that situation.




"God obviously makes weird decisions, at least from the human point of view. Famine, mass drought, suffering, Gigli...all kinda rough to understand as positives."

I could go on all day about this:
Famine: Do you know how much food is simply wasted? We could more then make up for a famine anywhere in the world if we worked together to control it.

Mass Drought: If there is a draught in one place there is always water in another, again if we all worked together we could prevent people from dieing of lack of thirst.

Suffering: 99.9% of the time is caused by human beings (yes I do believe Satan does his part to influence that). Disease spread by pollution and uncleanliness, wars causing innoccent people to die simply to thicken the pockets of the powers that be. Murder, rape, child abuse, suicide, child abandonment, theft, rinse, lather, repeat all these things we do to each other and ourselves.

"So why are people so compelled to follow the plans of such a faulty planner? How do we 'know' that His way is the best way for us, and if we don't why do so many follow along anyways?"

I don't think he's a faulty planner, I think we fucked his plans up, plain and simple. Do I "know" his way is the best way? I think it makes a hell of alot more sense then going off the logic of other people(yes the Bible might of been written by other people, and yes I believe most of it is divinley inspired, perhaps not all of it, however without the relationship with God I wouldn't have any interest in the book at all, it is Christ himself whom has inspired me far more then the Bible has) I'd rather have his guidance then that of those who destroy.
And yes I know many have done so in God's name, but that's not his fault now is it?

" But to worship Him and do *everything* His book says even if it sounds ridiculous and makes you miserable(or just picking what you like and ignoring the rest) always confuses me."

I actually find myself with far more misery when I stray from Gods path, and I don't pick what I like and ignore the rest. I have done plenty of things I did not enjoy doing, or did not nessecarily agree with at the time. It's kind of like when you work out: you feel the burn the shortness of breath, all you want to do is stop and go relax, but the results present themselves to you, and you end up feeling and looking better then you ever did.

Or what a woman must feel when she gives child birth (I've heard described as pushing something the size of a lemon through something the size of a watermelon), but the reward is that of an overcoming joy that (from what I've been told) is unmatched and makes every moment of the pain worth it.

I hope I've enlightened you to the best of my meager ability. Have a great evening!
 
i think what some of the writers here have been trying to say about the OT law is that, according to the NT gospels and letters, the ceremonial laws of the Torah have been made obsolete. not that we can't use them as a guide for living, but that they are not required in order to become saved. the moral and civil laws still do apply. this can be found in numerous NT references.

and just for the record: Torah literally translated from the Hebrew means "Law"; it DOES include the 10 commandments - noted in both exodus and deutoronomy; the Torah is comprised of the 5 books of Moses; the entire Torah contain 613 commandments, not just the well known 10.

rabbi, reverand Baron has spoken 😛
 
natural tickler said:
God is perfect and infalliable. The word of God never fails, and those who question Him will sooner or later feel his wrath. Please people, be grateful for the blessings He has bestowed upon you. It can be taken away in an instant

you have my respect and applause, NT. That was right on!! And it won't be long, either!!!
 
ronlasvegas said:
Why is it people do not believe anything unless they see it? I mean show me your spouse loves you,I mean show me not tell me what they do for you, but show me, Its impossible because love is not tangible you can't.But in your heart you know they do, right? Well how can we as people begin to even understand why He does what HE does? How arrogant of us to think we can begin to understand what He does We have finite minds HIs is infinite.If you ask him to open your eyes and ears to HIs words He will do so.Like He says in the Word "To the wise of the world my word are foolishness" Question --If I wanted to see who really loved me for me and I offered eternal life for the right answer how many pweople would believe in God then?I agree some Christians rain down on you by saying He is the only way their approach maybe be horrible but the message is From HIM.
Ronnie

Right on, Ron!!
 
Psycho said:
Well I as a believer am offended by this. If it werent for GOD you wouldnt be here. He created you. He is so powerful that he created the whole universe and everything in it. When you can do that THEN and only then will you have the power to question him. Not all pain comes from GOD some is from saten.

Psycho
Not all pain is from God some is from Satan

Yes!!! Thank you!! and when we take God out of our schools, government, cities and everything else, what else do we expect? Right on, Psycho!!
 
TklDuo-Ann said:
Now that I have a bit of time, I thought I'd finally respond to this thread. However, I'm responding to Bella's intended topic and NOT the rash of side issues that got dragged in.

The plain and simple answer for me personally... I believe that God is perfect and that it is our undersatnding of Him that is and always will be imperfect. This isn't something I walk into blindly at all. I constantly question and challenge Him...sometimes with a good deal of anger. But, in the end, something inside always finds peace with the fact/belief that He knows what He's doing and will indeed bring all things to good.

One example of this was when I was in the midst of dealing with abuse issues. It was one of the most difficult periods of my life and nearly sent me in the opposite direction. There were many times when I stood before the altar screaming at Him when nobody else was around. I questioned His wisdom, His love for me, His allowing us free will...everything. I know that many would be horrified to think of someone yelling at God. But, I look at it this way. He knows what's in my heart. If I'm going to have an honest relationship with Him, then why lie about what I feel? He can handle everything I have to dish out...and then some. In the end, I believe that it was being totally naked before Him (emotionally speaking) that helped me allow Him to bring healing.

So, yes. I question Him on a regular basis. I challenge Him when I don't understand something...like now with why my mom has to suffer through a third bout of cancer. But, I also recognize that I WON'T always understand. And I've come to a place where I'm okay with and have found peace with that. It's something that I wish for others to find...not so that they believe what I do, but so that they find the peace I've found. It's each persons own personal journey to make, not mine to push on them. So, I encourage others to question Him as I have. I trust that He will meet each person where they're at (even those who can't see Him) and lead them to where they need to be....whereever that is for each person.

Ann

Good topic, Bella. Too bad it got off track.

I agree totally Ann. I have questions I'm gonna ask when I get upstairs, ya know?? However, All things work together for good to them that love the Lord. I have faith in that verse and even though I don't always understand God's ways, I know that He HAS a way for everything and everyone in existence.
 
natural tickler said:
For Psycho and all others who believe God is real, and are defending His Word, I salute you. For all others who have doubts, are questioning Him for all the worng reasons, or those who doesn't feel He exists, you will find out soon enough. When the day is coming (judgement day) and you will see Him in all His glory, you willknow and feel His presence. I feel sorry for those who don't believe. You'll wish you did. Why do bad things happen? to get you to depend on Him, have faith in Him. He doesn't just let things happen just to happen there's a reason for everything. These are signs that Jesus is returning. All who believe will follow Him to the Kingdom, all those who will not will enter into Hell for eternity. Remember, and never forget: you are where you are by the grace of God and His goodness and mercy will last forever; not by anything you did.
my 2 cents

I totally agree, NT. "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is King of kings and Lord of lords. I can't wait to get to heaven, can you?
 
primetime said:
my position is this. if you believe in God, good for you. if you dont, them good for you. i believe in God and accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour. that is my right, and no one can convince me otherwise. i do not blame God for the mayhem that goes on in the world, i blame Satan. he DOES exist. Satan is the "god" of this world. he was a fallen angel and sent here. this is his world. as for God being "perfect", of course he is. but he allows free will. ever remember a time when your parents told you not to do something, and they KNEW you were going to do it anyway? then you suffered consequences for your actions, but your parents still loved you and hoped you learn your lesson. Man was created without sin, but given a free will. but Adam and Eve were fooled by the Devil, and lo and behold sin was born. God could have destroyed the world, but didnt because he loves us. that is why he gave his only Son to die for US and to allow us to get back in his "good graces". how many of you would give your child away to save everybody else? i see no hands up do i?

to the people who doubt the Bible's words, do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? if you believe in Jesus, then you know what he did actually happened. if that is the case, then remember, you would KNOW he was crucified. why was he crucified? for laughs? of course not. he had a purpose in mind when he was crucified. he then ROSE from the dead three days later. he defeated death and that is what allows us humans to get the opportunity to get back in God's "good graces". we are sinners and none of us will ever be perfect. but we are blessed by God that he is willing to forgive us, much like your parents forgave you for some of the stupid things you did.

again, believe whatever you want. just remember, we will all find out what happens after we die. under the Christian beliefs, one who dies and hasnt accepted Christ as their savior will be doomed to hell, right? but those that dont believe God exists believe there is no afterlife. so, there seems to be no real consequence in death if God doesnt exist. so if us Christians die, and there is no God, then no real harm comes to us. BUT, there is a consequence if God DOES exist. ask yourself this. are you willing to take that chance? we Christians have nothing to lose do we? but non Christians have to take a tremendous chance about death. if they're wrong, there is a HUGE price to pay. just something to think about. are you willing to take that chance??

amen Primetime. "And they shall mount up with wings like eagles....." I love debates like this. It strengthens my faith and makes me ponder the word more.
 
Re: IMHO

killedbyanangel said:
"Um, why do so many people believe that God's way is always the 'right' way? Why is He considered the end-all be-all of righteousness?"

I know Christ through his influence in my life, and his endless knack of bailing me out when I needed to be. At least thats the way I see it. I honestly believe that I wouldn't be here right now, or I would be a very bad person if it wasn't for that influence.
I believe his way (not the way of men) is the perfect way for us, because he is the only spec of light and guidance in an otherwise dark world. Unlike many "christians" (I use the term loosley because it was one coined by the Romans when they were executing followers of Christ) I can't tell you the Bible is infallible (Emperor Constantine chose which books went into the New Testament, and left many of the so-called "gnostic gospels" out). It was written and put together by men after all, and men are indeed fallible. I still believe it is the most amazing book ever written, although man's interpetation of it (More appropriatley their misuse of it) has made alot of people cringe at the mention of it. I don't think it's the book's fault personally.

"We *are* talking about a being that goes around drowning folks and causing frog rain and plagues when He gets ticked, after all. If your mom threw frogs at you I doubt you'd trust her judgement about your life."

The Wrath of God? In some cases. A natural occurence in others. Let's stop and consider why God would get so pissed off, I'll use the same example you did: "causing frog rains and plaugues". The Israelites we're put into slavery by the Egyptians, and continuosley worked to death, beaten, tortured, starved, and what have you. To put it bluntly: Dad got pissed. Let's not forget too that the egyptians were warned prior to this. Let's also not forget that the plagues were mild before they were severe. They had plenty of warning as to what would happen if they continued to fail to "let my people go". And also if someone harmed your children I'm certain you'd throw much more then a frog at them to start with. I think God showed great restraint in that situation.




"God obviously makes weird decisions, at least from the human point of view. Famine, mass drought, suffering, Gigli...all kinda rough to understand as positives."

I could go on all day about this:
Famine: Do you know how much food is simply wasted? We could more then make up for a famine anywhere in the world if we worked together to control it.

Mass Drought: If there is a draught in one place there is always water in another, again if we all worked together we could prevent people from dieing of lack of thirst.

Suffering: 99.9% of the time is caused by human beings (yes I do believe Satan does his part to influence that). Disease spread by pollution and uncleanliness, wars causing innoccent people to die simply to thicken the pockets of the powers that be. Murder, rape, child abuse, suicide, child abandonment, theft, rinse, lather, repeat all these things we do to each other and ourselves.

"So why are people so compelled to follow the plans of such a faulty planner? How do we 'know' that His way is the best way for us, and if we don't why do so many follow along anyways?"

I don't think he's a faulty planner, I think we fucked his plans up, plain and simple. Do I "know" his way is the best way? I think it makes a hell of alot more sense then going off the logic of other people(yes the Bible might of been written by other people, and yes I believe most of it is divinley inspired, perhaps not all of it, however without the relationship with God I wouldn't have any interest in the book at all, it is Christ himself whom has inspired me far more then the Bible has) I'd rather have his guidance then that of those who destroy.
And yes I know many have done so in God's name, but that's not his fault now is it?

" But to worship Him and do *everything* His book says even if it sounds ridiculous and makes you miserable(or just picking what you like and ignoring the rest) always confuses me."

I actually find myself with far more misery when I stray from Gods path, and I don't pick what I like and ignore the rest. I have done plenty of things I did not enjoy doing, or did not nessecarily agree with at the time. It's kind of like when you work out: you feel the burn the shortness of breath, all you want to do is stop and go relax, but the results present themselves to you, and you end up feeling and looking better then you ever did.

Or what a woman must feel when she gives child birth (I've heard described as pushing something the size of a lemon through something the size of a watermelon), but the reward is that of an overcoming joy that (from what I've been told) is unmatched and makes every moment of the pain worth it.

I hope I've enlightened you to the best of my meager ability. Have a great evening!

I agree with just about everything you've said, angel. Especially the part about feeling miserable when straying from God's path. I feel if i miss church, for health or weather or whatever reason, the rest of the week doesn't go quite right. Same happens when I stray from His word. I don't hear Him quite as clearly as when I'm in the word. therefore, I'm trying to get back into the word more. Have a great day! Email me sometime if you want to discuss this further.
 
natural tickler said:
God is perfect and infalliable. The word of God never fails, and those who question Him will sooner or later feel his wrath. Please people, be grateful for the blessings He has bestowed upon you. It can be taken away in an instant

crydun said:
you have my respect and applause, NT. That was right on!! And it won't be long, either!!!

Is wrath not allegedly a sin? Why, then, does a perfect being possess wrath at all?
 
You know, I have no problem with people who disagree with my beliefs. Believe whatever you want. But those who disparage and/or threaten anyone who doesn't agree with them...there's no excuse for that, and I'm pretty sure this "god" you speak of would agree.
 
originally posted by primetime
again, believe whatever you want. just remember, we will all find out what happens after we die. under the Christian beliefs, one who dies and hasnt accepted Christ as their savior will be doomed to hell, right? but those that dont believe God exists believe there is no afterlife. so, there seems to be no real consequence in death if God doesnt exist. so if us Christians die, and there is no God, then no real harm comes to us. BUT, there is a consequence if God DOES exist. ask yourself this. are you willing to take that chance? we Christians have nothing to lose do we? but non Christians have to take a tremendous chance about death. if they're wrong, there is a HUGE price to pay. just something to think about. are you willing to take that chance??

First, let me say that I respect you for not being insulting or condescending. But with all due respect, allow me to explain why I disagree. No matter what you believe in, you're taking a chance. Your example is entirely possible, but so is an example where your beliefs put you at more of a risk than not believing. It's entirely possible that neither side is right. There may be a case where, because I didn't commit to any belief, I am safe, whereas you've committed to the wrong belief, and are subject to the consequences. All I'm saying is, whatever you believe in, it's a risk. Not believing, also a risk. Welcome to the world, we're all risking our asses.
 
I've lost many friends over the years to this kind of discussion. Non-believers will always regard believers with "whatever makes you happy" and believers will always look at non-believers in sadness, pity, and oftentimes today...smug self-righteousness. Is it any wonder that so many people have died throughout the course of history because of religion?
I guess i just want to say that I hope everyone comes out of this discussion on friendly terms. No religion should affect people coming together in friendship. I miss the friends that i have lost because i didn't share their spiritual beliefs.

The Sean Man

:happyfloa
 
And yet, when thumbing through The Mahabharata there's not one mention of Moses, Jesus, the Torah, Mohammed, or anything like that.
 
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