Harminimisation vs Zero Tolerance

[Mephistopheles]

Case in point California it is legal to have 12 mari. plants if you have an illness that it helps I personally know about 25 people who moved there to make money. Why because they can

Well then, why not make it a legal business and have them pay taxes? The state is missing out on a lot of dough here. If you grow weed in farms it's much more efficient, it does not require lots of criminal activities and the state gets a share of the profits in taxes. Everybody will be happy.

 

[MasterPaladin]

I'm afraid to even ask this question but I will. Would you want your kids hooked on whatever because the Gov wants to make money ? This is wrong. OK I am an abuser of everything. I eat pastry I eat to the excess, candy to the excess, steak to the excess ok here goes booze if I have it in the house to the excess. I was given codine and thank god it's controlled or that would have been done to the excess. Am I weak yes in some areas yes so NO drugs should be illegal not because of me but because of people like me. I am not a druggie nor am I an alkie but could very easily be if laws were different and there are many like me. I would not kill but there are those who will.

 

[xionking]

MasterPaladin and Mephistopheles, you have both given me some stuff to think about for my 'Drugs, Crime and Society' subject at university, and I appreciate it greatly, guys.

If governments had control of the supply of drugs, it would be my opinion that a lot more destruction would result. In a social context, societal values would shift and all the sudden we could see a new class of addicts who are (stereotypically speaking) not only relying on the government for their welfare check, but are also relying on them to support their addiction.

-Xionking

 

[Mephistopheles]

I'm afraid to even ask this question but I will. Would you want your kids hooked on whatever because the Gov wants to make money ? This is wrong. OK I am an abuser of everything. I eat pastry I eat to the excess, candy to the excess, steak to the excess ok here goes booze if I have it in the house to the excess. I was given codine and thank god it's controlled or that would have been done to the excess. Am I weak yes in some areas yes so NO drugs should be illegal not because of me but because of people like me. I am not a druggie nor am I an alkie but could very easily be if laws were different and there are many like me. I would not kill but there are those who will.

I would like my kids to get proper education on whatever they're planning to use. And better to have the governement make money of it which they can use for better education and affordable rehab than that that money goes to Tony Montana.

 

[xionking]

Imagine the day when a neo-liberal Western nation's economy is mainly rooted in the distributing of illicit substances.

I'd take 3 hits of acid, and then tell the government I would like a rebate.

-Xionking

 

[MasterPaladin]

so ok let them get hooked and lets try to cure them. Here is where I agree to disagree. Legalize drugs and no one else goes to jail and oh AND your police force may use them cause there legal can't stop someone from doing something in there free time. Question I know social drinkers only when there out ie weddings and such who do you know thats a social cocaine user or crack or heroin or any other drug. Sorry to say you name one then there a liar

 

[xionking]

so ok let them get hooked and lets try to cure them. Here is where I agree to disagree. Legalize drugs and no one else goes to jail and oh AND your police force may use them cause there legal can't stop someone from doing something in there free time. Question I know social drinkers only when there out ie weddings and such who do you know thats a social cocaine user or crack or heroin or any other drug. Sorry to say you name one then there a liar

Hallucinogens are mainly used socially. I have plenty of friends who are social pot smokers, including myself. That goes for pills too.

However, that being said, however, where's the distinction drawn? Could an individual be considered a 'social ecstasy user' if they are taking pills most weekends? I know plenty of people who consider themselves 'social drinkers' who drink most weekends.

-Xionking

 

[MasterPaladin]

True but and a big BUT is it really social this is my point

 

[xionking]

True but and a big BUT is it really social this is my point

Well, okay, let's think about it.

If there's a dependency towards the drug, then I wouldn't imagine it would be social any longer. But then again, these social drinkers may depend on drinking to assist in their good time, or to assist them with interacting with others. And as a society, I don't they would be deemed as alcoholics.

Same goes with pills. Many become dependent of ecstasy because it gives them the ability to socialise and interact at a level they may normally be unable to.

As I write, I'm seeing a fine line between what is deemed "social" and what isn't. It's interesting.

-Xionking

 

[MasterPaladin]

you are correct there is a fine line so what separates them ? Think about it how easy is it to come off drugs as opposed to alcohol I think about the same ok like 3 to 5 days of horror now if someone gets drunk 10 times in 10 weeks can he stop with no withdrawals if it'[s his first time doing this YES can the same be said for crack heron morphine and even many pills in 10 weeks can become an addiction. Plus how much would it cost to get high on liquor as opposed to drugs and do you thing the Gov. would be cheaper to buy drugs or greedy to charge what the dealers get. Did you ever hear of an alkie mugging someone to get a drunk or is he to drunk to , can the same be said for a drug user ?

 

[Redmage]

On a simple objective level, it seems obvious that zero tolerance hasn't worked. Aiming to minimize harm can hardly do worse.

 

[Artoo]

Question I know social drinkers only when there out ie weddings and such who do you know thats a social cocaine user or crack or heroin or any other drug. Sorry to say you name one then there a liar

I use drugs socially, in the same way I drink socially. And that's the truth.
Admittedly, I've never done crack or heroin, but the point still stands.

 

[Mephistopheles]

so ok let them get hooked and lets try to cure them. Here is where I agree to disagree. Legalize drugs and no one else goes to jail and oh AND your police force may use them cause there legal can't stop someone from doing something in there free time. Question I know social drinkers only when there out ie weddings and such who do you know thats a social cocaine user or crack or heroin or any other drug. Sorry to say you name one then there a liar

Here police officers aren't allowed to smoke pot. Something being legal does not mean it's allowed in your line of work.

I've been a recreational drug user, even of the more addictive substances like speed and cocaine. No problems there. You can't use hallucinogens for any other purposes than recreational ones. There's nothing addictive about being in a different dimension for 8 hours, and you'd have to wait some time for it to regain full effect.

 

[MasterPaladin]

ok well crack one time your addicted and thats a fact and ice one time and your dead thats a fact. cocaine I have heard of people using on occasion but the amount of people who use socially I think it's safe to say 70% become addicts. Not many can stay social. acid or lsd is not addictive but many used it and yes not addicted but brain cells got screwed up. I'm sorry I am totally against drug use and will never condone it

 

[Mephistopheles]

ok well crack one time your addicted and thats a fact and ice one time and your dead thats a fact. cocaine I have heard of people using on occasion but the amount of people who use socially I think it's safe to say 70% become addicts. Not many can stay social. acid or lsd is not addictive but many used it and yes not addicted but brain cells got screwed up. I'm sorry I am totally against drug use and will never condone it

Do you condone drinking?

 

[MasterPaladin]

if you never drank before can you become addicted if you did it 30 days in a row. Same question for drugs get high 30 days in a row. it takes a lot longer to become addicted to liquor than it does to drugs. To add to this I never heard of an alkie killing doing burglaries robberies etc to support his habit. Now to answer your question I do and I don't. I've been there need I say more.

 

[Mephistopheles]

if you never drank before can you become addicted if you did it 30 days in a row. Same question for drugs get high 30 days in a row. it takes a lot longer to become addicted to liquor than it does to drugs. To add to this I never heard of an alkie killing doing burglaries robberies etc to support his habit. Now to answer your question I do and I don't. I've been there need I say more.

There's lots of alcohol addicts living on the streets committing crimes.

They did a study here in which they gave heroin to severly addicted junkies for free. They quit crime, stayed of the streets, used alot less than before and started to get their lives back on track.

It's not the drugs that make them commit crimes, it's the prices.

And FYI: alcohol is one of the harder drugs on the market. Both on addiction and damage. Once you're addicted it's neigh impossible to get clean.

 

[MasterPaladin]

I disagree there 3 days and your clean in severe cases 5 days. What brings you back is you like it not the need for it. Smoking is the worst 5years later you can have an attack you need it and it takes months to even come close to kicking it.

 

[Redmage]

ok well crack one time your addicted and thats a fact and ice one time and your dead thats a fact.

I'm sorry, but neither of those statements is a fact. Simple common sense would tell you part of that - how much money would a dealer make if his product killed his customers with a single dose?

cocaine I have heard of people using on occasion but the amount of people who use socially I think it's safe to say 70% become addicts.

Closer to 30% actually.

I'm sorry I am totally against drug use and will never condone it

I don't condone cheating on one's spouse, but that doesn't mean I want to pass laws against it - or that I think any such laws would work if I did.

 

[General Zod]

There's lots of alcohol addicts living on the streets committing crimes.

They did a study here in which they gave heroin to severly addicted junkies for free. They quit crime, stayed of the streets, used alot less than before and started to get their lives back on track.

It's not the drugs that make them commit crimes, it's the prices.

And FYI: alcohol is one of the harder drugs on the market. Both on addiction and damage. Once you're addicted it's neigh impossible to get clean.

If heroin was given out free by your government,who really paid for it? The taxpayers would be my guess I personally do not want my taxpayer money to go for illegal drugs

Also
As a person who makes a living by driving big rig,I feel that if a lot of drugs were legalized,the DUI rate would come up
Bad enough we got drunk drivers out there Add in people driving while high? Bad idea

 

[MrMacphisto]

Legalisation with a proper support service in place for addicts and problem users, services currently available for both illicit drug users and problem users of alcohol, would be a nice idea. So the second one. Harmonicasiationism.

Agreed.

 

[MrMacphisto]

I disagree there 3 days and your clean in severe cases 5 days. What brings you back is you like it not the need for it. Smoking is the worst 5years later you can have an attack you need it and it takes months to even come close to kicking it.

A lot of this comes down to one thing...

Does a free society prevent people from making mistakes, or do you have the freedom to make mistakes?

I usually support the latter.

I understand the costs associated with drug abuse, but when looking at how much it costs to fight the War on Drugs, I'd say the costs of abuse would still be much, much lower....

And as for cops using drugs, part of the job description could require drug testing to discourage use of said drugs. Just because something is legal doesn't mean you can't ban their use from a certain job.

 

[General Zod]

A lot of this comes down to one thing...

Does a free society prevent people from making mistakes, or do you have the freedom to make mistakes?

I usually support the latter.

I understand the costs associated with drug abuse, but when looking at how much it costs to fight the War on Drugs, I'd say the costs of abuse would still be much, much lower....

And as for cops using drugs, part of the job description could require drug testing to discourage use of said drugs. Just because something is legal doesn't mean you can't ban their use from a certain job.

When people pay for their own mistakes,I can live with that I find it wrong when other people have to pay for someone else mistakes IE someone dying or hurt real bad because some fool did a DUI

 

[xSamanthax]

MasterPaladin and Mephistopheles, you have both given me some stuff to think about for my 'Drugs, Crime and Society' subject at university, and I appreciate it greatly, guys.

If governments had control of the supply of drugs, it would be my opinion that a lot more destruction would result. In a social context, societal values would shift and all the sudden we could see a new class of addicts who are (stereotypically speaking) not only relying on the government for their welfare check, but are also relying on them to support their addiction.

-Xionking

The government already has control of the supply of drugs (FDA anyone?). Government doesn't care if people get high - they care about who is profiting from it. Pharmaceutical companies want to make sure we take THEIR drugs. And they pay the government enormous amounts of money to protect their bottom line. The government cooperates because you can't tax Mexican drug cartels. Nor does the black market have lobbyists that grease the wheels.

Valium is legal (and dirt cheap). Pot isn't?


Follow the money....

 

[Redmage]

When people pay for their own mistakes,I can live with that I find it wrong when other people have to pay for someone else mistakes IE someone dying or hurt real bad because some fool did a DUI

So criminalize the behavior that actually causes harm. Using drugs does no harm to anyone except (maybe) the user. Leave it alone. If someone gets behind the wheel high, THEN arrest him.

You can't make laws based on what people MIGHT do. Go down that road, and you'll just have to ban driving altogether, because really that's the only way to absolutely prevent speeding.