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iraq

shark said:
As far as Vietnam and Cambodia,there was already fighting in progress,
alot of it long before and after US involvement.I left out Pol Pot,so you can add another estimated 3 million.Just for the record, though, this paragraph,and its partner in my last post,were more directed to august's post.Since you decided to reply,that's fine.


Still, the US dropped more bombs over a neutral country than they did in the entire 2nd world war, killing thousands of innocent civillians, which wouldn't had died if the US hadn't bombed them. As is the case with Vietnam; the US dropped shitloads of Napalm on villages, harmless civillians were burnt alive.

The Muslims are pissed off all the time about something the west does.
I'll again refer to Osama's last tape,in which he stated that socialists are unbelievers,too.Most of this is religious in nature,and
the Arabs, who are so inclined, will do as they please, whenever they can and declare themselves holy warriors in the process.Until you start praying to Allah and reading the Koran,these types will never be satisfied.

Of course socialists are unbelievers; the socialist philosofy is atheistic; "religion is the opium of the people" is a very well-known phrase of Marx, the father of socialism.


As for our policy towards Israel,Arabs don't dictate our allies for us.They might dictate yours,however.I'm just curious as to how much of this US-Israel concern is anti-US and/or anti-semitic in nature. After all,the US didn't settle the Jews there,the UN did.Why is there no anti-UN backlash about this from some of you people?

I'm not anti-Israel; I believe the Jews did need a place for themselves. I am however, against the current version of Israel, in which the Jews are being almost the same as those nazi's in 1933-1945; except this time the world does nothing for 60 years already. Shooting with tanks at unarmed kids throwing stones is moronic, as is the fact that they bulldoze an entire block of houses when "there could be a possible terrorist in there". I thought that in democracies the people had the right of fair trial before being punished? Guess that doesn't imply to Palestinians then... 🙄
 
First things first:

I had forgotten to point out some things about those trade sanctions that are killing Iraqis.First,they would NOT be dying if Hussein was spending his oil income on them,as the conditions of the sanctions require.Instead,he uses much of the proceeds for his military,which is why the sanctions are still in effect.
Secondly,the sanctions are UN sanctions,not US.Don't even bother telling us how the UN is under US control,as this is far too easily refuted,and a search on this site would bring up plenty of information that I don't care to constantly repeat.

Now we can start with the new.Apparently, you either have a poor base of information,or don't realize that I have not mentioned war casualties yet.The numbers I posted pertained to domestic issues only,but since you care to,we'll get into war,too.

If you are referring to the often publicized picture of that child all burned up,I have some bad news for you.That was proven to have been another lie of a left-leaning press.The child was burned up,but this happened during a NORTH VIETNAMESE practice mission on a village.
To be fair,the village was supposed to have been abandoned at the time,but this group migrated in without the NVA knowing it.I'm mentioning this because that one picture has carried so much weight throughout the years, but I'll give you some credit.This revelation only came about 4 YEARS ago.

Since you care to bring up civilian casualties caused by the US,we can discuss this,too.I have omitted war casualties for several reasons,one being that all parties share at least some blame for civilian casualties.Since you choose to play the "Blame the US" game,that's fine,too.
The first point is that no modern war goes without civilian casualties,but only a few nations attempt to limit them.The US and UK come to mind immediately.However,your buddies in Iraq prefer to use them as shields.
During the years,some civilians were killed intentionally,as in My Lai and a village in Korea,which name I don't recall.Albeit a bad option in both cases, they were also both products of infiltration techniques used by opposing forces.The massacre in Hue during the Tet offensive by the VC and NVA,however,were not.
From your posts,it would be easy to assume that you consider yourself clairvoyant.Otherwise,you wouldn't bother to assume how many,or few,civilians would be killed in any given strife.That area of Asia has been in occupation or war for however many years.The VC and NVA already had 40 years of fighting under their belts,so war was no strange experience.Along with this goes civilian casualties.
That was some background,so here's the main gist.There may have been "neutral" countries officially,but all were,at least,indirectly involved.If you're referring to Laos,forget it.Laos was openly supportive of North Vietnamese efforts and logistics efforts.If you're talking about Cambodia,I have two points.First,the North was using Cambodia as a base of operation and supply line.Secondly,and more importantly,Pol Pot took over Cambodia and instituted his well-known cleansing and mass slaughter project.The only thing that stopped him might have been the ill-advised attacks on Vietnamese border villages,prompting Vietnamese counterattacks,and his downfall.
Under these conditions,there is NO WAY you could POSSIBLY determine who,or how many,civilians would have died,or when.The Hmong were still under persecution,and the US brought them here for protection,
saving them from death at the hands of the Pathet Lao,primarily Laotian,and others.So,unless you're trying to pass yourself off as clairvoyant somehow,forget it.Pol Pot and the VC in Vietnam were responsible for numbers of deaths that nobody will ever be able to determine,and nobody's bright enough to look back and disseminate who woul,or would not,have survived anything.

Lastly,there is Israel.Terrorists attack them whenever they let the pressure up,ands this is proven.Shopping malls,buses,schools,night clubs,and residential neighborhoods are the preferred targets.Where is your objection to this?They also use kids as human bombs,but we see no objection on your part.You whine about a terrorist's house being demolished.Rather than go through dozens of points that have been discussed earlier,I suggest you use the search function here.It's all old news,and has been brought up plenty of times.You paint a pretty picture of the Palestinians and their plight,not seeing that they bring the Israelis on them through their own actions.
I weary of responding to these poorly formed ideas, so I'll advise that you do your own search on this.The search function is on the left side of the site's "menu",and it works well.Try looking for Palestine,Palestinians,Israel,or Israeli.Propoganda takes forever to address,mostly because it is repetitive and oversimplified.I don't have the patience to do it on this forum,so try out the search fucntion.

Finally,you,nor any of your fellow comrades,answered my one question.
Why is there no backlash on your part directed at the UN for their involvement in the middle east?It WAS they who started the Jewish resettlement that ultimately resulted in today's situation.
 
shark said:
First things first:

I had forgotten to point out some things about those trade sanctions that are killing Iraqis.First,they would NOT be dying if Hussein was spending his oil income on them,as the conditions of the sanctions require.Instead,he uses much of the proceeds for his military,which is why the sanctions are still in effect.
Secondly,the sanctions are UN sanctions,not US.Don't even bother telling us how the UN is under US control,as this is far too easily refuted,and a search on this site would bring up plenty of information that I don't care to constantly repeat.

Now we can start with the new.Apparently, you either have a poor base of information,or don't realize that I have not mentioned war casualties yet.The numbers I posted pertained to domestic issues only,but since you care to,we'll get into war,too.



Of course, Saddam is an asshole. On one hand, the war IS necessary to free the Iraqi people of the regime. But that's not what Bush's goal is, otherwise they'd had done that during the first Gulf War, and they really wouldn't spend so much money on it; it'd be something like Afghanistan. Yet, on the other hand, I'm convinced that the goal doesn't justify a war. Alot of people die because of it, and if it aren't Iraqi's, it will be US soldiers, because although alot of them are not told to the public, there still are quite some casualties, as is unavoidable in a war. Clean wars have to be invented everstill, and untill a war is really clean no war is noble, as is the main point for this one.


If you are referring to the often publicized picture of that child all burned up,I have some bad news for you.That was proven to have been another lie of a left-leaning press.The child was burned up,but this happened during a NORTH VIETNAMESE practice mission on a village.
To be fair,the village was supposed to have been abandoned at the time,but this group migrated in without the NVA knowing it.I'm mentioning this because that one picture has carried so much weight throughout the years, but I'll give you some credit.This revelation only came about 4 YEARS ago.

Since you care to bring up civilian casualties caused by the US,we can discuss this,too.I have omitted war casualties for several reasons,one being that all parties share at least some blame for civilian casualties.Since you choose to play the "Blame the US" game,that's fine,too.
The first point is that no modern war goes without civilian casualties,but only a few nations attempt to limit them.The US and UK come to mind immediately.However,your buddies in Iraq prefer to use them as shields.
During the years,some civilians were killed intentionally,as in My Lai and a village in Korea,which name I don't recall.Albeit a bad option in both cases, they were also both products of infiltration techniques used by opposing forces.The massacre in Hue during the Tet offensive by the VC and NVA,however,were not.
Otherwise,you wouldn't bother to assume how many,or few,civilians would be killed in any given strife.That area of Asia has been in occupation or war for however many years.The VC and NVA already had 40 years of fighting under their belts,so war was no strange experience.Along with this goes civilian casualties.
That was some background,so here's the main gist.There may have been "neutral" countries officially,but all were,at least,indirectly involved.If you're referring to Laos,forget it.Laos was openly supportive of North Vietnamese efforts and logistics efforts.If you're talking about Cambodia,I have two points.First,the North was using Cambodia as a base of operation and supply line.Secondly,and more importantly,Pol Pot took over Cambodia and instituted his well-known cleansing and mass slaughter project.The only thing that stopped him might have been the ill-advised attacks on Vietnamese border villages,prompting Vietnamese counterattacks,and his downfall.
Under these conditions,there is NO WAY you could POSSIBLY determine who,or how many,civilians would have died,or when.The Hmong were still under persecution,and the US brought them here for protection,
saving them from death at the hands of the Pathet Lao,primarily Laotian,and others.So,unless you're trying to pass yourself off as clairvoyant somehow,forget it.Pol Pot and the VC in Vietnam were responsible for numbers of deaths that nobody will ever be able to determine,and nobody's bright enough to look back and disseminate who woul,or would not,have survived anything.

No, I'm not referring to that one. I'm pointing at the entire parts of jungle still left burnt and destroyed by the chemical shit called Agent Orange; as alot of Vietnamese people are still infected with that poison. And I don't believe you if you say there were no civilian casualties due to the use of Napalm, because even today wars still as bloody as they were a century ago.


Lastly,there is Israel.Terrorists attack them whenever they let the pressure up,ands this is proven.Shopping malls,buses,schools,night clubs,and residential neighborhoods are the preferred targets.Where is your objection to this?They also use kids as human bombs,but we see no objection on your part.You whine about a terrorist's house being demolished.Rather than go through dozens of points that have been discussed earlier,I suggest you use the search function here.It's all old news,and has been brought up plenty of times.You paint a pretty picture of the Palestinians and their plight,not seeing that they bring the Israelis on them through their own actions.
I weary of responding to these poorly formed ideas, so I'll advise that you do your own search on this.The search function is on the left side of the site's "menu",and it works well.Try looking for Palestine,Palestinians,Israel,or Israeli.Propoganda takes forever to address,mostly because it is repetitive and oversimplified.I don't have the patience to do it on this forum,so try out the search fucntion.

Finally,you,nor any of your fellow comrades,answered my one question.
Why is there no backlash on your part directed at the UN for their involvement in the middle east?It WAS they who started the Jewish resettlement that ultimately resulted in today's situation.

Those suicide bombers have a clear reason: their lives are so useless, hopeless and destroyed, that the only way to make a real difference is to blow themselves up. You have to be really desperate to do that. They are, since they have nothing and Israel a very rich country, build on what was once their homeland, and they've been given just some small bits and pieces of worthless land, whatever land was useful in the Gaza-strip and West-Bank has been claimed by Jewish settlers. The settlers are the one of the biggest problems; as they occupy the prime spots of Palestine territory and they bathe in wealth, in contrary to most of the Palestinians. During the hot summers there, a Jew is entitled to 7 times the amount of water a Palestinian gets. So they're being thirsty and when they look at the settlement, they see the Zionists swim in POOLS. I don't blame the UN for the fact there are so many problems, as the UN hasn't funded Israel's war-industry, unlike the US of course. The 6-day war was completely unnecessary, as are the preventive-strikes against "possible Palistinian terrorists" as the Israelians claim.

From your posts,it would be easy to assume that you consider yourself clairvoyant.

I am not clairvoyant, yet I do have acces to both sides of the middle-east story; seeing the fact that I've got acces to both the western media as the Arabic, which are both everything but objective towards the issues.
 
I'm not going to argue some nitpicking shit about what caused what casualties.Casualties are casualties, and civilians get hurt when they're too close by.I'm fully aware of the Agent Orange effects,and napalm is part of the US arsenal.

I've posted enough on the middle east in the past,numerous times.I'll again suggest you do a site search.
 
not about iraq, but...

it was brought up by the un-loyal oposition.
during the viet nam war the u.s. did fight limited engagements in cambodia, and laos. but we wouldn't have gone in there, or bombed there, if the friggin north vietnamese hadn't gone into those countries first! so if you wanna point fingers at anyone for civilian casualties in cambodia, and laos, get your aim straight, and point to the true culpret, the commies in north viet nam!
we now return you to the dabate in progress...
steve
 
Re: not about iraq, but...

areenactor said:
it was brought up by the un-loyal oposition.
during the viet nam war the u.s. did fight limited engagements in cambodia, and laos. but we wouldn't have gone in there, or bombed there, if the friggin north vietnamese hadn't gone into those countries first! so if you wanna point fingers at anyone for civilian casualties in cambodia, and laos, get your aim straight, and point to the true culpret, the commies in north viet nam!
we now return you to the dabate in progress...
steve

it was illegal action according to treaties the US signed, Henry Kissinger stated that himself not so very long ago in front of a camera.
 
I guess it's fine that the VC and NVA targeted civilian populations for attacks and terrorist tacitcs,right ST?Despite many of their actions violating international laws that the US did abide by,all you can see is the US failures.Your posts show your past,and current, sympathies,in spite of your own denials and self-description.

You mentioned how many Iraqi civilians have died under the sanctions,blamed the US for it,but failed to remember that the UN was the source of those sanctions.At every opportunity, you have nitpicked
a US fault that was a fraction of what our opponents committed,but never bothered to mention this. Objective my ass.

I'm now done with this thread,but I'll leave with 2 points to ponder.

No matter how many Iraqi civilians may die in the war,it is a far less number than ANY estimate of how many will die under the Hussein regime.

Even if one was to accept the premise that this war is about oil,how much would the Iraqi people care,once they are rid of Hussein? The welfare of the Iraqi people would be of paramount importance for your ilk,provided that you are all that concerned about them in the first place.

Believe whatever you want,Dutch boy.Pretty soon the Iraqis will have that opportunity as well,no thanks to you or your like-minded comrades.
 
Thank you for proving my point

shark said:
First things first:

Since you care to bring up civilian casualties caused by the US,we can discuss this,too.I have omitted war casualties for several reasons,one being that all parties share at least some blame for civilian casualties.Since you choose to play the "Blame the US" game,that's fine,too.

Thats what i've been saying all along. "ALL parties share at least some blame". And that extends to more than just civilian casualties. Everyone wants to assign all the blame to Iraq. While I'll be the first to agree that Iraq isn't perfect and is to blame for a lot of things, I would also say that so is the US. Now it seems that people like you Want a double standard. So if Iraq does something wrong they deserve to be punished. I can agree with that. BUT THE US DESERVES THE SAME THING. SO while you pile the crap on iraq and its administration, make sure you give the US and its administration its fair share of crap too.
 
i'm with shark

i'm now leaving this thread, and i'll delete any further email notifications to it.
i'll also leave a parting comment. all you domestic, and forgien anti-americans; you have riled me, intrigued me, insulted me, but now you've sunk to a new low... you've bored me!
turn on your t.v.'s, the war is almost over! we're in baghdad!
you people will never learn, you are mired in your jealous hatred of all things american, and refuse to open your eyes to see the truth.
have a good life, if you can?
steve
 
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