Legalise Prostitution

[Newcastle Uni]

Hello Everyone!

I'd love to hear your thoughts on prostitution!

I know that in some parts of the world prostitution is legal - as i understand the situation, prostitution is legal in certain parts of the US and in certain European countries - but in the UK and most of the World prostitution is illegal. It is my opinion that there is no advantage to be had in not legalising prostitution for several reasons: -

1) Prostitution cannot be eliminated. There will always be those wanting to work as prostitutes and there will always be those wanting to visit a prostitiute.

2) If prostitution is legalised it can also be regulated and provide a source of revenue for the Exchequer. This could also help to reduce the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases and provide rights to both workers and punters where currently there are none.

3) If we stop ignoring prostitution perhaps we can tackle some of the real problems associated with prostitution - specifially the exploitation of women, especially those from Eastern Europe.

I think we are a fairly liberal lot (sexually liberal even if we might have conservative views on other topics), so what d'yer say? Should prostitution be legal? It seems to me that the arguements against prostituion focus on it being ethically and morally wrong, perhaps even against religious doctrine. Some people also say that a state should not sanction prostitution. I certainly know that there are few politicians that would touch this issue with a barge pole in Britain - it would be a vote loser. There would be a lot of opposition. But why?

 

[Haltickling]

Legalizing prostitution won't rid you of all the problems coming with it, but it it makes it easier to control large parts. Here in Germany, prostitution is legal. All prostitutes need a license which has to be renewed every 3 months by a medical exam, and the women have to pay taxes and social security fees. This enables prostitutes and customers as well to be relatively safe.

However, illegal prostitution is still a big problem. East European mafia organisations control large parts of the illegal market, luring naive girls here with a promise to work as a waitress, then taking away their passports and keeping them in slavelike conditions. There are also violent gang wars between the Albanian and the Chechnyan mafia for area control (mostly in Hamburg and Frankfurt).

The problem: These modern slaves are much cheaper than legal prostitutes, and they even work without condoms sometimes. As long as the male sex drive is stronger than their sense of responsibility, there will always be illegal prostitution, despite tight state control. Where there's lots of money to make, you'll always find criminals, be it drugs, prostitution, gambling, or big business...

But you're right, much of the negative attitude towards prostitution is based on religious motives. Almost all South European countries (strictly Catholic) won't allow it, and Americans as well as Brits are still rather rigorous on their religious attitudes as well.

 

[Newcastle Uni]

That was quite interesting. I suppose the problems with prostitution can never be solved. I just wish the British Government would do more to help those poor girls that are forced to work as sex slaves. However, i think your take on the British viewpoing is slightly wrong. I don't think we in Britain have stong religious views, but we do have double standards. Most ordinary people are unfaithful to their partner (at some stage of their life) and have affairs, or take drugs, or drink excessively, or lie, yet take a hypocritical stance when others are found guilty of these things - one just has to look at how our newspapers treat celebrities or politicians found guilty of these things. The very same newspaper that increases its circulation with a topless girl on page three will also tut and cry shame when a celebrity has sex with someone he/she shouldn't have.
I think the major obstacle to legalising prostitution in this country is that most people have a feeling that it is somehow wrong. Most people are not logical or analytical and do not consider things in their entirity. They think that prostitution is wrong and so should not be legal, and then dismiss the idea. They forget that prostitution WILL continue to exist regardless and that the situation would be IMPROVED by legislation tackling the issue.

 

[BigJim]

Britain isn't as secular as somewhere like Sweden Hal, but we are nowhere near as religious as America. Of the two we're closer to the Swedish attitude with most devoutly religious people being immigrants and their descendants and OAPs who were brought up with a different set of values. We have enough double standards for a hall of mirrors though, so I'll agree with N_U on that one.


As to the topic, yes I think prostitution should be legalised and licensed. Every industry and trade has it's place on the Black Economy and prostitution will be no different if it's legalised, but it would at least give the girls (and indeed the guys) who make a positive and responsible choice a safer and cleaner route. There is no argument against legalising it that holds water apart from the religious one (Hal - you remember us having this conversation with Omega once before?), and seeing as how religion means less and less in more countries with every passing day, that one is out of the window.

 

[kis123]

Here's a girl's point of view:

Legalizing prostitution would be one of the smartest moves the government could make (especially since many of them utilize their services anyway! 😛 ).

1-legalizing prostitution takes the stigma from the world's oldest profession. 2-It takes the "thrill" out of the process and puts it out in the open. No more
sneaking around!
3-If it's a legal business, profits and income can be taxed.
4-Healthcare can be made available. Healthy prostitutes don't spread disease right?

It's not called the "world's oldest profession" for nothing. No one has been able to stop it. I find it morally wrong, but obviously folks aren't going to stop because of my opinions. Might as well protect the public and increase tax revenue at the same time.

Here's a question for the sake of "devils advocacy":

If you legalize prostitution, do you legalize drugs too?
Hmmmmmmm........

 

[Newcastle Uni]

Drugs hey!

Thats a good one. Personally I would have to say, yes, yes we should legalise certain drugs. Afterall, many currently illegal drugs are no worse than alcohol, ciggarettes, cigars and even some less healthy foods! Europeans have a more relaxed attitude on this than Brits and maybe Americans. I was speaking to a dutchman at a party the other night and he says that some drugs are freely available across the Netherlands, but also in some parts of Switzerland and in other European cities/countries. Why not UK? Surely there are some drugs that could be legalised - providing a revenue for the taxman and ensuring that only safe drugs are sold. Also, this might improve the economies of some struggling countries - Afghanistan should benefit.

 

[BigJim]

If you legalize prostitution, do you legalize drugs too?
Hmmmmmmm........

If you mean all illegal drugs, no you shouldn't, any more than you should legalise selling radioactive isotopes in corner shops. Getting a legover is not a brain-destroying experience, in fact it might just significantly enhance the quality of life for many people. Legalising heroin/cocaine/et al would take power away from drug dealers, but these substances are hugely harmful under the wrong circumstances and without knowledge of their chemistry.

 

[Newcastle Uni]

Heroin, cocaine etc. should remain illegal. But what about some of the less addictive and less damaging drugs. Alcohol is, in my experience, quite a nasty and horrible drug but it is fun to drink. I would really love to be able to take some other drug when I want to relax, something that will leave me stimulated, will not cause me to become progressively more incoherent and insensible and that will not leave me with a raging headache in the morning should i over-indulge.

 

[steph]

I'm with you here hon. Nevada (next door) has had it legal for decades. The girls are tested regularly, last I heard, once a week.
I'm in favor of legalizing drugs too~what a liberal I am, eh?

XOXO

Here's a girl's point of view:

Legalizing prostitution would be one of the smartest moves the government could make (especially since many of them utilize their services anyway! 😛 ).

1-legalizing prostitution takes the stigma from the world's oldest profession. 2-It takes the "thrill" out of the process and puts it out in the open. No more
sneaking around!
3-If it's a legal business, profits and income can be taxed.
4-Healthcare can be made available. Healthy prostitutes don't spread disease right?

It's not called the "world's oldest profession" for nothing. No one has been able to stop it. I find it morally wrong, but obviously folks aren't going to stop because of my opinions. Might as well protect the public and increase tax revenue at the same time.

Here's a question for the sake of "devils advocacy":

If you legalize prostitution, do you legalize drugs too?
Hmmmmmmm........

 

[Newcastle Uni]

I watched a documentary on the BBC about the Bunny Ranch, which I think was in Nevada. Its apparently one of the biggest brothels and the guy running the show has a turnover of several millions of dollars each year.

Now thats a job I could do!

 

[steph]

Yes, it's very cool place~we partied there once~some kinky friends had a co-ed bachelor/bachelorette party there. That guy actually runs the place with his wife, Suzette. They're totally fun!

XOXO

I watched a documentary on the BBC about the Bunny Ranch, which I think was in Nevada. Its apparently one of the biggest brothels and the guy running the show has a turnover of several millions of dollars each year.

Now thats a job I could do!

 

[kis123]

If you mean all illegal drugs, no you shouldn't, any more than you should legalise selling radioactive isotopes in corner shops. Getting a legover is not a brain-destroying experience, in fact it might just significantly enhance the quality of life for many people. Legalising heroin/cocaine/et al would take power away from drug dealers, but these substances are hugely harmful under the wrong circumstances and without knowledge of their chemistry.

Sorry-guess I shoud've been more specific. That's what happens when you wake up at 3am and start posting! 🙂

 

[kis123]

I watched a documentary on the BBC about the Bunny Ranch, which I think was in Nevada. Its apparently one of the biggest brothels and the guy running the show has a turnover of several millions of dollars each year.

Now thats a job I could do!

And he doesn't have to pay a nickel of tax, does he? I'm not sure about the laws there so he may be paying taxes on that money. A lot of revenue for the state and feds, isn't it?

This isn't a moral or legal decision-it's a business decision! If they're going to do it, get the money!

 

[MrMacphisto]

Here's an interesting paradox. In the U.S., if you pay for sex, it's illegal, UNLESS you also film the act and then sell the footage to other people. In other words, prostitution is illegal, but porno is legal. Stupid, isn't it?

Remember folks: when you pay for sex, record it and then sell it. That way, it's perfectly legal.

 

[goddess_nemesis]

Originally posted by Newcastle Uni
I think the major obstacle to legalising prostitution in this country is that most people have a feeling that it is somehow wrong. Most people are not logical or analytical and do not consider things in their entirity. They think that prostitution is wrong and so should not be legal, and then dismiss the idea. They forget that prostitution WILL continue to exist regardless and that the situation would be IMPROVED by legislation tackling the issue.

I'm probably not logical or analytical about this because I disagree with legalising prostitution. It's probably because of my upbringing, being taught that it's wrong. Newcastle Uni, you listed great reasons for pro-prostitution. But I see it as degrading to women. If a man wants sex, all he has to do is pay a prostitute and he gets what he wants? Some prostitutes are forced into a life like this. Even if it's legalized and regulated, what of the women? As a woman, we are not objects to please men.

Originally posted by Newcastle Uni
Most ordinary people are unfaithful to their partner (at some stage of their life) and have affairs, or take drugs, or drink excessively, or lie, yet take a hypocritical stance when others are found guilty of these things

And what happens to married couples? I'm sure if it's legalized and regulated, no one's gonna prevent a married man from using a prostitute. It's already terrible when a spouse is unfaithful. And I disagree with you, Newcastle Uni. I don't think most ordinary people are unfaithful or unless my parents, most of my family, and even I aren't ordinary.

 

[BigJim]

But I see it as degrading to women. If a man wants sex, all he has to do is pay a prostitute and he gets what he wants? Some prostitutes are forced into a life like this. Even if it's legalized and regulated, what of the women? As a woman, we are not objects to please men.

No, you're individuals who have the right to make individual choices. Some women (and it's obvious that they're going to be in the minority) don't see it as degrading because they frame the physical act of sex differently in their conceptions. They would volunteer to do this job because they can retire by the age of 30, or at least start a whole new life. I would have to say that personally finding the idea of being a prostitute degrading is not a good reason to deny the right for someone else to engage in it legally, because you're effectively imposing your personal values on them. That doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons for voting NO, but I don't think finding it personally wrong for you is one of them.

And what happens to married couples? I'm sure if it's legalized and regulated, no one's gonna prevent a married man from using a prostitute. It's already terrible when a spouse is unfaithful. And I disagree with you, Newcastle Uni. I don't think most ordinary people are unfaithful or unless my parents, most of my family, and even I aren't ordinary.

No they're not, but again this is attempting to blanketise morality. You would effectively be denying a single man with low self-esteem and no sex life the opportunity to legally have sex because you'd be worried about other individuals abusing their marriage. And that of course assumes everyone in the country in question unquestioningly believes in monogamy. There is a proportion of the community that doesn't equate not being monogamous with being "unfaithful" or "falling out of love" with their partner. I think it would be unfair to deny the legal service to people who are alternative.

 

[Haltickling]

nemesis, women of the highest circles in society have always played the male sex drive to get what they want, be it expensive clothes. a diamond ring, or a sports car. The rich men pay for that in order to get sex or continue to get sex. Bribing women with gifts to get sex is a rather natural behaviour and goes probably back to the stone age or further. Where does "normal behavior" end, and where does prostitution begin?

A good story to confirm this:
A man in a hotel bar asks a female stranger: "Excuse me, would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" She ponders the thought for a while, then she accepts. Then he asks her: "Would you also sleep with me for 10 dollars?" Deeply offended, she retorts: "Of course not, what are you taking me for?" He replies calmly: "We have already clarified that; now it's only a matter of setting the price..."

Besides, we need to differ between voluntary and forced prostitution. Almost all illegal prostitutes are forced by pimps, or they're drug addicts who need the money for their next shot. That of course is wrong and should still remain forbidden.

But there are also many legal prostitutes (in countries where prostitution is legal) who choose this job for making a lot of money within a few years (as BigJim rightly remarked). Legalizing their work gets them off the criminals' hook and enables them to leave the job again when they want, a choice they do not have when prostitution is illegal.

Quite often, the voluntary prostitutes were victims of sexual abuse as kids or teenagers, and they have lost much of their self respect. Only few of them ever had a normal relationship with a man. So they have no problems with offering sex for money, because that's all they know anyway. To offer them help, you must first legalize their profession, or you'll never reach them.

And let's not forget: They do valuable work for society, at great risk to their health. The rape rate in countries with legal prostitution is much lower than in other countries. Every woman should appreciate the prostitutes' work as a part of making her a little safer.

One more thought: If a married man feels the need to visit a prostitute, you can safely assume that the marriage has already been badly damaged before his visit...

 

[Cosmo_ac]

The younger Canadian Liberals have been seriously looking at this. However, they still have another 10-20 years probably before they'll be in a position of power to push for it. Shame that.

 

[goddess_nemesis]

BigJim, Haltickling, you both provide good viewpoints and I can see that legalized prostitution would benefit all, but I grew up being taught that it's wrong.
As any person growing in a Christian background (or any other religion that teaches this), you grew up learning that prostitution of any kind is a sin and evil in the eyes of God. The act of sex is wonderful in the eyes of God when it's shared between a married couple. I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone. If I am, I apologize. I guess, my morality overrules my rationality.

 

[BigJim]

BigJim, Haltickling, you both provide good viewpoints and I can see that legalized prostitution would benefit all, but I grew up being taught that it's wrong.
As any person growing in a Christian background (or any other religion that teaches this), you grew up learning that prostitution of any kind is a sin and evil in the eyes of God. The act of sex is wonderful in the eyes of God when it's shared between a married couple. I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone. If I am, I apologize. I guess, my morality overrules my rationality.

No need or reason to apologise, especially since a large proportion of your country feels this way. Now to a good point...

The only reason for being against prostitution that has no opposing factors is the religious one. The Bible says it's bad, so we shouldn't allow it; straightforward and unequivocal. The first amendment to the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion as part of free speech. That being the case it follows that "freedom of religion" also means the freedom to choose to reject all religions and be an atheist, agnostic or a personally spiritual person with your own set of defined values and morals. If that is so, then it should follow that laws regarding personal morality should not be written or removed because of religious morality. A christian would regard some things as sins that spiritualists would not. Outlawing something because you were taught it was wrong as part of a christian upbringing is effectively imposing the dogma of your own religion on someone else who doesn't subscribe to it. It also flows into the "seperation of church and state" debate.

So in my opinion the only things that should be considered when outlawing prostitution is if it would be harmful to the girls concerned (it wouldn't, it would actually make their job much safer), whether it would pose a health risk (it wouldn't, it would drastically reduce the spread of sex industry-spread STD's and has been proved to do so in Europe) and if it would be predjudicial to the country or state's infrastructure (highly doubtful considering it would be a source of considerable revenue for them). There are probably other considerations, but I think that's the gist of them.

There is the argument that it gives men who want to cheat on their spouses an avenue to follow temptation, but I think this is absurd considering it's a personal responsibility issue. Why should the rest of us suffer because a very few married men can't control themselves? And what about those who don't consider monogamy to be essential or even healthy? Strange as it may sound, some couples consider sexual experience outside of their relationship to be fun and stimulating as it keeps both partners fresh, unjaded and learning new things. Could anyone see all the bank robberies and firearms related homicides cutting much ice with the NRA if you tried to restrict or ban gun ownership?

 

[MrMacphisto]

The first amendment to the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion as part of free speech. That being the case it follows that "freedom of religion" also means the freedom to choose to reject all religions and be an atheist, agnostic or a personally spiritual person with your own set of defined values and morals. If that is so, then it should follow that laws regarding personal morality should not be written or removed because of religious morality. A christian would regard some things as sins that spiritualists would not. Outlawing something because you were taught it was wrong as part of a christian upbringing is effectively imposing the dogma of your own religion on someone else who doesn't subscribe to it. It also flows into the "seperation of church and state" debate.

I've been trying to explain this to religious people in this country for years, but so far, it rarely works. Pretty soon, secular logic will become a forgotten sense of rationality in this increasingly religious society we call America. For that reason, I envy the fact that you live in the U.K. Your average standard of living might be lower than ours, but I'd be willing to deal with that, if I could just find more secular people to associate with.

 

[goddess_nemesis]

Originally posted by BigJim
The first amendment to the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion as part of free speech. That being the case it follows that "freedom of religion" also means the freedom to choose to reject all religions and be an atheist, agnostic or a personally spiritual person with your own set of defined values and morals. If that is so, then it should follow that laws regarding personal morality should not be written or removed because of religious morality. A christian would regard some things as sins that spiritualists would not. Outlawing something because you were taught it was wrong as part of a christian upbringing is effectively imposing the dogma of your own religion on someone else who doesn't subscribe to it. It also flows into the "seperation of church and state" debate.

Originally posted by MrMacphisto
I've been trying to explain this to religious people in this country for years, but so far, it rarely works. Pretty soon, secular logic will become a forgotten sense of rationality in this increasingly religious society we call America. For that reason, I envy the fact that you live in the U.K. Your average standard of living might be lower than ours, but I'd be willing to deal with that, if I could just find more secular people to associate with.

I'll admit y'all are right, but personally I feel that it is wrong.
And, MrMacphisto, many people have a strong sense of right and wrong and in the US religious, it may take awhile before people's point of views change. (As the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day.) I mean, it has taken a long time before men began to see women as equals rather than inferior to them. And it'll take time for people to think of prostitution positively rather than morally wrong.

 

[BigJim]

I'll admit y'all are right, but personally I feel that it is wrong.

That's totally cool Nemesis, you're free to have that opinion and no-one, least of all me has the right to make you change it. 🙂


But think for a moment as your job is a constitutional lawyer. America is the world's biggest and most diverse mongrel; nowhere else on earth will you find such variety and diversity (personally I think that's one of its greatest strengths). You have multiple faiths and multiple races, all of whom practice their own moral codes within their own boundaries and you've got plenty of sub-divisions between those too. As a constitutional lawyer your job is to provide and amend a basic framework within which everyone can fit. It's the net that protects everyone and gives them their guaranteed rights. Now if you were both a catholic and a lawyer, on what basis do you think you should be making laws? Your own personal set of moral beliefs based on your faith, or a set of interests common to all based on protection of individual liberty?

Tricky question isn't it? Would such a person impose their beliefs on everyone they affected, like that judge in Alabama or somewhere who erected a monument with the Ten Commandments outside his courtroom and refused to take it down even when ordered to by the Supreme Court; decide potential laws based on what would suit everyone and leave their religious values out of it; or resign because the clash of loyalties was too much? You have to wonder how many people this situation has occured to.

 

[BigJim]

I've been trying to explain this to religious people in this country for years, but so far, it rarely works. Pretty soon, secular logic will become a forgotten sense of rationality in this increasingly religious society we call America. For that reason, I envy the fact that you live in the U.K. Your average standard of living might be lower than ours, but I'd be willing to deal with that, if I could just find more secular people to associate with.

Well the joy of America is that it contains everything in the world mate. You may have to move state to find it, but it's there.

I have to agree with you though that the trend in religious thinking is a retrograde one. From my POV it seems to me that the America of the 70's and 80's was further along the road of secular mental evolution than it is today. Given the beliefs I have and have spoken about, this is not unexpected, but it is still worrying. I have to say though that catholoscism is not the power behind it, at least not obviously so. The religious thinking in America that's gone backwards seem to have come 95% from the protestant community. Anyone else have any observations on this? Agree? Disagree?

 

[MrMacphisto]

I totally agree...