LOTR: Return of The King

[The Pianist]

I saw the film today and I was actually quite pleased with it. I think part of what helped me enjoy it was that I have read the books, but that was over half a decade ago in grade 6... so even though the end seemed to drag a little bit, I didn't want it to finish before they had properly finished the story... and at the same time I can't remember it vividly enough to notice many of the parts they changed or excluded.

My annoyances.... Gandalf is a wizard and such a cool character... and I know Peter Jackson didn't want him to be flashy or anything.... but I wanted to see something. The staff fight in FOTR was cool, so was the balrog fight... also his staff fight in Minas Tirith was cool.... but all the previews showed him riding across the planes with his staff flashing a bright light... and I was really looking forward to seeing what he was doing...

He was wielding a giant flashlight.

Also, at the final battle where they are circled... the moth turns up right before the hawks attack. I mean, I know this has some symbolis from the first movie... but seriously, the hawks could've helped them out a heck of a lot sooner if they had sent something that could fly a little faster... like some sort of bird... rather than something that should've died of old age by then.

Anyway, I still loved it... and am curious to how my sister is enjoying it. You see, she saw it yesterday... and she knows she has been committed to seeing it a few more times with friends.... but in particular, she is going to the movies tomorrow with one friend to see all three movies in a row....

10 hours + of Lord of the Rings. Should be interesting... hope she's packed a tent or something.

 

[TklDuo-Drew]

We saw "Return of the King" a couple days ago, started off kinda slow compared to "The Two Towers", which immediately grabbed you from the start. (my opinion, anyway)
But once things got going, ROTK was absolutely unbelievable! Has to be witnessed on a big screen with huge sound system! The "endings" kinda got on my nerves cause I had to pee really bad after 3 and a half hours.
And I was waiting for Sauraman to show up as well, guess we wait for the dvd.

Drew


And not to hijack a thread (again!), but anyone else check out the cool trailers for "Spiderman 2" and "Walking Tall" starring The Rock?

 

[BigJim]

In the books, Frodo's and Sam's encounter with Shelob occurs in the Two Towers, not ROTK, as does Pippin's pilfering of the palantir.

Oddly enough, FOTR was completely the opposite. Boromir's death isn't covered in the books until the opening chapter of TTT. In the movies though it comes in at the end of FOTR. I disagree that the film couldn't have ended the same way. Jackson allegedly decided that the incident with Frodo being nearly killed by Shelob and being dragged off as a prisoner of the orcs would've been an anti-climax. Well George Lucas ended Empire Strikes Back on such a note, when Luke got his arse royally kicked by Darth Vader, getting barely rescued from certain death by plunging into the stinking atmophere of the Bespin gas-giant.

 

[Ayla ny]

I absolutely loved all three movies! every minute of them. they were visually stunning and the story just swept me right up. it had been so long since I had read the books that I was up for anything. seems that may have been a good thing.

as much as I enjoyed them... I’ll wait until they are a box-set and do the marathon thing from the comfort of my couch (and with a pause button for the breaks when I need them).

 

[The Pianist]

About the Marathon thing.... because my mother got the Two Towers extended DVD set for Christmas... they actually watch TTT extended version... and TTT extended version with the Director's commentary today also...

So along with the movie marathon... my sisters (assuming they don't go to sleep during the movie) will actually be watching almost 17 hours of LOTR today.

Utter Madness.

 

[Limeoutsider]

I went to see it today and at the end of the movie, there was a fist fight 😀 ANyway. the movie was good (only one of the 3 Ive seen), and long.

 

[the_Baron]

well. this took up most of my friday. i did think it was the best of the three. but i guess i'm just not a LOTR captive. i wanted to kill golum most of the time. and was wishing someone would shave those nasty toes on the hobbits.

i really did like the last samurai though.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I didn't even know what Lord of the Rings was until the Fellowship came out. I had heard about it, but it never really caught my attention. And this was dispite the fact I had seen the cartoon version of the Hobbit when I was in middle school. I didn't even know the two were related until I learned more.

I liked all three movies, and as one of the many that hasn't read any of the books, my ignorance probably saved the experience for me in a good way. If I had known all this stuff I'm hearing from what appears to be avid fans of the series I probably would have bee outraged and frustrated with it too.

Of the whole experience, I was hoping the Witch King fight would last a bit longer and his death wouldn't come at the hands of a cheap shot from behind followed by an attack from the front. While I'm sure the book played it out the same way probably, that just seemed like a bad way to end it for the general of Sauron's army. Although perhaps it was meant to be ironic that such a powerful figure could be destroyed so easily, and like that.

The same is true for Sauron himself. I was hoping to get more info on him. Someone mentioned earlier here that he was something along the lines of nothing more than a lighttower or something like that. I agree. Hes the most evil force in Middle Earth and yet all hes doing is looking around. While I understand his physical body was destroyed as depicted in Fellowship, I was hoping we would feel his presense in a more real, physical way. Perhaps its true that after his death he was reduced to a floating, buring eyeball whose life-force is tied to his Ring. But they could have at least made it where he makes some kind of a return. Not that he was ever gone.

Its probably just me, but I wanted to see more of him when he was actually alive.

Can anyone tell me more about him? Anything at all other than hes some evil lord that created a ring of power to dominate Middle Earth? He seems much more like a minor character in the movies, and yet hes the main antagonist, the purest of evil. That should stand for something other than the ability to manipulate people or turn his gaze on them. Or perhaps he is best this way, like Palpatine in Star Wars- the manipulator of wills.

 

[BigJim]

To use terms that most non-readers are more familiar with, Sauron was something like a saint or demon in the beginning. The Middle-Earth version of Satan was a god called Melkor (the gods are referred to by Tolkein as the Ainur.) They had a race of lesser beings, or servants, who did a lot of work on their behalf in the world. Maybe you could call them "demi-gods", or "saints" to get some idea of what they were. Sauron was the chief servant of Melkor, the fallen, evil god.

Melkor got his arse kicked and was banished into the nothingness of the Void (Hell) to where all fallen souls will eventually end up, barely even sentient, just a "shadow of malice". With his fall, Sauron (who knew mega, MEGA magic and necromancy) pretended to repent and became a councellor of the king and elves. He shared his knowledge of making rings of power with them all and craftily got them to forge these rings to such a degree that their own souls and the power of their races were projected irreversibly into them. Being a tricky git however, Sauron kept a few bits from each ring, a sort of fingerprint of each one, if you will. The leaders of men in Middle Earth got 9, the ones most easily manipulatable because of their greed for power; dwarves got 7, ill bearing the dominion of others, but with a weakness for precious metal and stones; Elves got three, the mightiest of them all. Returning home to Mordor, Sauron crafted the One Ring in the volcanic fires of Mount Doom, with the idea of being able to control the thoughts and will of all the other ring bearers. Such a task required an immense amount of power and Sauron had to project the greater part of his will, power and immortal soul into the One to give it enough strength. With it on his finger he became the most powerful being to have existed, with the exception of Illuvatar, or Eru, the chief god of the Ainur. (Who lived in some remote dimension of heaven and couldn't really be arsed anyway.) With the ring on his finger, Sauron laid waste to Middle Earth and brought all into his evil empire. The last union of men and elves provided the sternest challenge yet, so Sauron himself came out of the Dark Tower to kick some arse. (Well, closer to a couple of hundre darses actually.) He cut down Elendil, the king of men and Gil-Galad of the elves as well. When all seemed lost, Isildur pulled the rabbit out of the hat when he cut the ring from Sauron's hand. Such was Sauron's physical existence dependant on the magic ring, that his body combusted, leaving his soul only, wafting around, manipulating through the will of others. As FOTR describes, Isildur held on to the ring out of selfishness and was killed in the river, it was found by Smeagol, who lost it in his caves beneath the Misty Mountains after a few centuries, only to be found by Bilbo Baggins who was passing through. (See, The Hobbit.) When the penny dropped with Gandalf, they all realised what needed to be done. Sauron had too much power to be overthrown without using the Ring themselves, but that would result in disaster and a new dark lord, even if they were sucessful. The Ring had to be cast back into the fires of Mount Doom to destroy it. (Which was deep within the borders of Mordor remember!) The result on Sauron would be similar to walking up to someone and the physically ripping their heart out. All his malice, magic, power and will was cast into it, so it's destruction would destroy him instantly. Whatever remained of his soul after that, would sink into the Void to join Melkor.

 

[drew70]

Bravo, Jim!

An excellent summation of the life and times of Sauron of Mordor, Jim. A line from The Silmarillion regarding Sauron comes to mind... "[Sauron] was only less evil [than Melkor] in that for long he served another and not himself." My impression is that while Melkor was born with considerably more power than Sauron, he spent his power somewhat recklessly, and diminished over time. There had never been a Dark Lord before Melkor, so he was a pioneer of the trade, so to speak. Sauron, on the other hand, having seen Melkor's demise, learned from Melkor's mistakes. He realized he needed some way to accumulate power and hense devised his grand scheme with the Rings of Power.

Somebody mentioned the anti-climactic death of the Lord of the Nazgul and how easily this was accomplished. I can see where it looked that way in the movie, because I don't think the movie clearly spelled out the Witch King's invulnerability to men. Fact is, he can't be killed by men. In the book, Eowyn had tucked her hair in her helmet and was thus disguised as a man, though somewhat smaller of stature. Merry believed her to be a man called "Dernhelm." During the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, when Dernhelm stood between the Witch King and King Theoden, the Witch King said something like, "Fool! Know ye not that no man can smite me?" That's when she whips off the helmet, letting down her golden hair and says "I'm not a man!" and the Nazgul Lord was suddenly assailed with doubt. It took the combined efforts of two "non-men" to bring down this near invincible foe, and they were both nearly killed in the attempt. The movie also left out The Houses of the Healing and the difficult recovery of Eowyn, Merry, and Faramir.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

BigJim- Thanks alot. That was more info then I thought I would get. So Sauron wasn't human at any point right? How would or why would the elves believe him if they knew he was a demon? How could you believe a demon or semi-demon would repent? Or was this just necessary to compel the story forward whether it made sense or not?

drew70- Thanks alot. That was me that mentioned that, unless others had too. I just figured that for such a powerful character to be taken down as he was in the movie (the Witch King I mean), was a bit unsatisfactory. Dare I say it was a little 'cheap' that just because Eowyn is a woman and Merry is a hobbit that he was killed.

I was under the impression that when it was said that he couldn't be killed by men that it meant humans. So how does it make it different for a woman and a hobbit? Thats a little cheap. Thats like saying if it had been anyone else, he would have killed them. I know you have to bring about the character's demise to carry on the movie but it just seemed too soon and too quick. I felt the Witch King's presense and story was built up and exagerated since this is the way it ended. I would have been more pleased with his death if he had killed some troops on foot after he landed, and made his way to fallen King Rohan to finish him off (it was Rohan wasn't it?). You just see him talking about how hes going to break Gandalf and hes all menacing-looking, and hes being fitted with his armor and helmet and this and that beforehand like hes so important, and hes riding this dragon (or whatever). Even the severing of his mount's head seemed too quick and easy.

Is anyone feeling the way I am about this? Forgive my ignorance of the 'cannot be killed by men (as in the male human gender)'. Can someone explain it?

 

[Oddjob0226]

These are the books I keep saying "I'm gonna read them... I'm gonna read them.." but never do. Now I will for sure (after I get through Dracula and Uncle Tom's Cabin since I am doing both at the same time). I need to read them since there were things in the movie that left me and my friends going ?????

Like like the bowling ball that Gandolf took away from the hobbit who found it. He didn't really do anything with it that I remember. Why didn't he destroy it if it was so dangerous?

And a few of us (who hadn't read the books) were waiting for Sauron to actually become something corporal, or form a shape of some kind. The most evil thing in the world was a big eye? Poke it with a spear!

The mercenaries who, in their brilliance, decided to fight for the orcs - we saw their ships floating down a river. Then in the final battle when the ships show up the good guys jump out of the boats. Did we miss a battle somewhere?

Why did Frodo have to leave the shire?

And Frodo & Sam have to take this perilous journey to stop the most evil thing from happening, but to destroy the ring to stop the evil they are able to get through an unguarded back door to a volcano that had a loading dock. And they were able to do that because they escaped while the orc guards apparently killed each other fighting over his meager hobbit belongings! Had Gollum not shown up at the end there wouldn't have been that much problem in the actual destruction of the ring. So I will have to read the books just so I can say "Oh, THAT'S what was missing!"

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Biscuit- While thats all well and good, technically speaking, if theres some power the Witch King had over men that would keep them from killing him, it would be reasonable that nothing else could kill him either.

While I didn't expect him to be invincible, and I knew he would be destroyed in one form or another, I found that it took merely a woman with guts and a sneak attack from a hobbit a little disatisfying. I'm not being racist (against hobbits in this case) or gender bias here, but its a bit cheesy I feel that he could have stood up to anyone, but not a woman or a hobbit. Its as if that was some predeterminded weakness he had. Women and hobbits can kill you, but not men.

Realistically a woman would have fled in the face of such a terror just as a man or any other sane creature. The fact his death was so swift and made easy really downplays his evilness and persistance to destroy and conquer in the name of his master.

Do note however that I do now understand that he could have been killed by anyone, and that by it being said that 'no man could kill him' that it was speaking more of the terror he causes in other living things and the fact that anyone seeking to slay him would have to muster all the courage possible to even stand up to him. This isn't so much about the Witch King as it is about how he was killed, and the swiftness of his death dispite his history (other than nearly having killed Frodo at weathertop).

If it seemed at first I thought that the phrase was to be taken literally, that NO MAN could kill him, thats because I was waiting for someone to come around and correct me. I just think it would have been silly for men not to be able to kill him, but a woman is fair game. Thats what I was trying to get at. But, the fact that a woman DID kill him (with assistance) gave the female audiance something to cheer about and it proved shes not just some helpless king's daughter living in his shadow. More power to her. 🙂

Oddjob- "And a few of us (who hadn't read the books) were waiting for Sauron to actually become something corporal, or form a shape of some kind. The most evil thing in the world was a big eye? Poke it with a spear!"

Yeah! Thats what I would have liked. As I said, I didn't feel he was really present in the movies, and thats a shame given his history which I just learned from BigJim and Drew. Knowning what I know now about him, I wish even more that he had played a more direct role in the story other than guiding his forces to find his ring and seducing people to take it so as to return it to him or keep it safe until it can be returned.

And that brings me up to my next question. What would have happened if Sauron got his ring back? Would he still be that floating eye-ball, or would he be restored to his former self and thus be able to do more evil personally? What would happen to him?

 

[Oddjob0226]

Yeah! Thats what I would have liked. As I said, I didn't feel he was really present in the movies, and thats a shame given his history which I just learned from BigJim and Drew. Knowning what I know now about him, I wish even more that he had played a more direct role in the story other than guiding his forces to find his ring and seducing people to take it so as to return it to him or keep it safe until it can be returned.

Yeah - see.... this is what my friends were discussing. There was this great build up with the 1st 2 then in the 3rd film Sauron has his smallest 'role' yet, and his minion Sauroman/Christopher Lee was edited out of the picture. So there was all this 'great evil' build up, and I thought there was going to be some bigger culmination. Perhaps as a viewer I brought too much "with me" to the theater (ie: my own expectations mislead me) but at the same time the way the narrative(s) was/were presented I WAS expecting a... for lack of a better term..... "transformation" or something. Heck, it happened to Smeagel, it happened to Gandolf, it happened to the Ring Wraiths. In fact, I had my Tolkien confused and expected the eye/Sauron to develop into a dragon as his power grew (See, I was putting Smog into ROTK!!!) So THAT wasn't going to happen... but as someone who didn't read the books, but followed the narrative of the films, I certainly was expecting SOMEthing.... In the first 2 films he was evil as a concept, but then in this last one, rather than be a functioning evil entity, he remained a concept. If that's how it is in the book that's fine, but I'm sure it is fleshed out in a much more enaging, gripping way.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yeah - see.... this is what my friends were discussing. There was this great build up with the 1st 2 then in the 3rd film Sauron has his smallest 'role' yet, and his minion Sauroman/Christopher Lee was edited out of the picture. So there was all this 'great evil' build up, and I thought there was going to be some bigger culmination. Perhaps as a viewer I brought too much "with me" to the theater (ie: my own expectations mislead me) but at the same time the way the narrative(s) was/were presented I WAS expecting a... for lack of a better term..... "transformation" or something. Heck, it happened to Smeagel, it happened to Gandolf, it happened to the Ring Wraiths. In fact, I had my Tolkien confused and expected the eye/Sauron to develop into a dragon as his power grew (See, I was putting Smog into ROTK!!!) So THAT wasn't going to happen... but as someone who didn't read the books, but followed the narrative of the films, I certainly was expecting SOMEthing.... In the first 2 films he was evil as a concept, but then in this last one, rather than be a functioning evil entity, he remained a concept. If that's how it is in the book that's fine, but I'm sure it is fleshed out in a much more enaging, gripping way.

Amen brother.

 

[Amnesiac]

A Few Answered Questions

For the confused, I'll add my own two cents.

ODDJOB

Like like the bowling ball that Gandolf took away from the hobbit who found it. He didn't really do anything with it that I remember. Why didn't he destroy it if it was so dangerous?

The ball is a PALANTIR...a "seeing stone" if you will. Tolkien once said that Middle-Earth was huge, the distance from the Shire to Mordor was about 3000 miles. The stones were created to give inhabitants of Middle-Earth the ability to speak to one another over great distances...especially with Sauron causing trouble. It was also a way for humans to speak to Elves on Valinor...the island home of the Elves on which humans were forbidden to tread.

Gandalf didn't destroy it because it wasn't evil; Sauron was only able to use it because he had stolen the one from Minas Morgul...but with his defeat, the stones would no longer be dangerous to use, and they could be useful again.

The most evil thing in the world was a big eye? Poke it with a spear!

He was the representation of the evil Sauron had. Without the Ring, he didn't have the strength to take physical form, so at the time of the War, he's as powerful as he's gonna get without it. Plus, he had the power at the time to control the influence of his armies. In the book, it mentions how the orcs lost their bearings when Sauron perished.

Did we miss a battle somewhere?

Nope. The Corsairs were taken off-page in the books too. Tolkien didn't write "cinematically", i.e. skipping around from scene to scene, instead keeping one point-of-view 90% of the time. It was supposed to be a surprise for the battle.

Why did Frodo have to leave the shire?

Because Sauron got the info on who had it last when he captured and tortured Gollum. The Nazgul were already on their way there when Frodo left, and he almost got caught.

to destroy the ring to stop the evil they are able to get through an unguarded back door to a volcano that had a loading dock. And they were able to do that because they escaped while the orc guards apparently killed each other fighting over his meager hobbit belongings! Had Gollum not shown up at the end there wouldn't have been that much problem in the actual destruction of the ring.

The gate was unguarded because (as said in the book) Sauron never contemplated that a) anybody knew HOW to destroy the Ring and b) that anyone would ever TRY...after all they had to sneak into his backyard fer cryin' out loud. The vest was not a meager possession...it was Mithril, a rare ore that was more valuable than gold (and harder than dragon scales as well); on top of that, the Uruk-Hai and the Mordor orcs DON'T like each other...they were merely ordered to collaborate. And the story needed Gollum because the only way the Ring could be destroyed is if Frodo fell in...because it didn't let go once it had him, especially after that long journey.


Celtic_Emperor

So Sauron wasn't human at any point right? How would or why would the elves believe him if they knew he was a demon?

Sauron used to have the ability to take "fair guise" and look Elven if he so desired. Sauron is Maiar, the aforementioned "demi-gods", and so are Gandalf and Saruman. The mortal world is not supposed to know about them, so they have the ability to take human form as a disguise, and that's why Gandalf appears as an old man; only the Elves know what they really are. Sauron was sent to Middle-Earth to help in Melkor's time, and became corrupted by him...but nobody KNEW this at the time, not even the Elves. By the time they figured him out, he had already pulled off the Ring scheme and his body didn't matter anymore.

Interesting side note: Sauron lost his disguise forever when the island of Numenor was destroyed. The Numenoreans actually INTIMIDATED him to surrender and took him back as a prisoner, but he put the whammy on them and it ended with the destruction of Numenor...but because he was ON Numenor when it happened, his body was destroyed and he forever lost the ability to take "fair guise". The war where he lost the Ring took place a few years later.

As far as the Witch-King's death is concerned, the whole affair was kind of tongue-in-cheek. The idea that no man can kill him actually came from the appendices section of LOTR when the Witch-King was run out of his realm of Angmar by King Earnur and his troops. The Witch-King was driven off and Earnur tried to chase after when he was stopped by an Elf named Glorfindel who said that his doom would come later and "not by the hand of man." So it was kind of that hint where you don't KNOW exactly how he will die, but it won't be in an expected way...we know the Elves have some portentious ability, but Glorfindel's words were never really analyzed in order to keep the meaning multi-interpretational.

BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T EXCUSE YOU FROM READING THE BOOK! READ IT!

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I will.....I must.......0_______0

Thanks for the info. But wanting to know this did come at a price. Now reading the books won't be as fun since I know more about it beforehand. I knew what was going to happen in ROTK, because some overzealous fan of the series who had obviously read the books blurted out loud the ending and certain key points at a Games Workshop store I was in. While I wouldn't have understood most of what he meant, the parts about Smeagol were spoiled.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

the back door was not unguarded

frodo and sam's passage into mordor was not through an unguarded easy access. first as the movie showed the stair they climed is at the gate of the "city of the dead" home of the witch king, and a mustering point for the army of sauron. then at the sumit there is the cave of shelob that needs to be traversed. she had a simbiotic relationship with sauron, she was the watch dog, and he fed her prisoners. then you go up the path to the big fort where the orcs, and urik-hi did their m.a.d. thing.
so no it was not so easy, but it was do-able because, "it was suposed to be".

sauron would have become corporeal if he had got the ring back

another demi-god in the books was tom bombadil. he was the most powerfull "being" in the books.

to all those that haven't read the books, do your selves a favor and read them! there is so much left out, that seems important in the books. and the story is better fleshed out in the books.

steve

 

[Oddjob0226]

Re: the back door was not unguarded

to all those that haven't read the books, do your selves a favor and read them! there is so much left out, that seems important in the books. and the story is better fleshed out in the books.

Absolutely! Y neve meant to get this far in my life w/o reading them in fact. Yet I did. The sound like an incredible read and I lookk forward to it.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Re: A Few Answered Questions

For the confused, I'll add my own two cents.

ODDJOB

Why did Frodo have to leave the shire?

Well, what I actually meant was, why did he leave with Bilbo at the end of ROTK? All my did-not-read-the-book friends were wondering that. This was great and concise info Amnesiac; I simply wish, as a film, this stuff was more clear. Then, as we said in Jr. High, only fairies grant wishes. If I haven't read the book, then Speilberg, uh, I mean Jackson, shouldn't show me something then tell me through the side of his mouh to read the book. But I WILL read the books.

BTW, Jonathan Harker has just died, and the slave traders are in a bar conspiring to capture and sell both Eliza and her son. That's what's happening in the books I'm reading now.

 

[drew70]

Re: Re: A Few Answered Questions

Well, what I actually meant was, why did he leave with Bilbo at the end of ROTK? All my did-not-read-the-book friends were wondering that.

If I understand it correctly, Middle Earth is but one of two continents on "Arda." The western continent of Valinor is where the high elves dwell, as well as the Ainur, the most powerful servants of Illuvatar, of whom Melkor was once one. It's a place of incredible beauty and magic, where no pain nor sickness abide. It's ruled by Manwe, the head of the Ainur, and his wife Varda, whom the elves named Elbereth. Mortals such as Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits are confined to the continent of Middle Earth, which is really a cool place when there isn't a Dark Lord around.

The elves of Middle Earth know about Valinor but choose to remain in Middle Earth because they dig the trees and the natural beauty of it. Still, the elves seem to all eventually feel a yearning to sale west to Valinor. Of course, when you've got tyrants like Morgoth of Angband or Sauron of Mordor bringing down the quality of life in Middle Earth, that yearning might just come a little sooner in life.

Frodo's career as a Ringbearer took an incredible toll on him. He'd have bad dreams and wake up with pain in that old knife wound from his encounter with the Nazgul at Weathertop. In short, bearing such a burden for any length of time deeply injures a person in a most fundamental way. For this reason, all Ringbearers are awarded their place in Valinor, dispite their mortal status. Only in Valinor can such a burden be at last left behind. This is why Frodo and Bilbo left Middle Earth. Gandalf saled with them, because as a Maiar, his rightful place is in Valinor. His mission on Middle Earth was completed with the destruction of Sauron.

 

[Cav88]

I tried reading the books but I couldn't get into them. I read the Hobbit first, all the way through which dealt with Bilbo getting the ring. I read parts of the first book but it didn't interest me.

I like the movie because movie epics always interest me, go figure.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

So Gandalf wasn't even human to begin with? I don't get it. Whats the point of coming as an old man? Couldn't he just as easily come in his true form and do his work that way? Knowing what I know now, it almost makes Gandalf seem like a fraud. I mean, was he ever really this kindly wizard we know?

And what about his death fighting the Balrog? Wouldn't he have died no matter who he truely was? Yet he returns as Gandalf the White. A much more spiritual and powerful version of his previous self. Does this mean Gandalf had everything under control from the beginning?

I'm sort of lost on this part now. If hes some demi-god or higher lifeform why not just come as himself instead of the guise of an old wizard who appears to have lived a long human life and is at the end of his journey? Whos the real Gandalf? Was Gandalf ever real or just a cover identity?

Knowing what I know now about him, it was easier for me to accept him as this human man who lived a long life and had many adventures and such. Knowing that hes some higher creature from another land who just came under a guise to assert himself and see what would happen feels wrong.

I don't know how to feel about Gandalf now. He was possibly my favorite character and I felt I could trust him, and now I feel frauded in a way. Just as any of the other characters might if they learned the truth.

Forgive my ignorance, I just don't know what to make of this or how to feel.

 

[BigJim]

Re: Bravo, Jim!

My impression is that while Melkor was born with considerably more power than Sauron, he spent his power somewhat recklessly, and diminished over time. There had never been a Dark Lord before Melkor, so he was a pioneer of the trade, so to speak. Sauron, on the other hand, having seen Melkor's demise, learned from Melkor's mistakes. He realized he needed some way to accumulate power and hense devised his grand scheme with the Rings of Power.

Hmmm, yeah, quite possibly. If we use the the phrases "god" and "demi-god", then Melkor was a god and Sauron a demi-god. As I've always understood such things in mythology from Greece, Rome, Egypt, Sumer and Babylon, being one or the other isn't so much an indication of power or potential, but breeding. Given time, ingenuity and practice, a demi deity like Sauron could become more powerful than a full-blood like Melkor. (Beat that for a long sentence. 😛)

 

[BigJim]

BigJim- Thanks alot.

So Sauron wasn't human at any point right? How would or why would the elves believe him if they knew he was a demon? How could you believe a demon or semi-demon would repent? Or was this just necessary to compel the story forward whether it made sense or not?
[/B][/QUOTE]

No he was never human, although he could appear in humanoid form if he so choose. (He was hampered from doing so when he lost the one ring and his physical form was destroyed. He needed to get it back again to become corporal again.)

The elves believed in him (only some of them, ones like Elrond were not fooled) because he could portray himself as fair when he put his mind to it. Same with the noblemen of Numenor. He was able to charm, smarm and lie his way into favour by filling the Elves minds with what they could do with the power of their rings he'd help them make. He told them he could help them make the wasted Middle Earth as beautiful as Valinor.