masturbation (christians)

[scorpionldr]

Hey, everybody's different.Who the heck can say what's "copious" for every other guy out there? Especially when the topic in question is masturbation, something that don't involve or effect NO ONE else but the person doing it.If the stress relief/enjoyment factor for me doesn't coincide with another person's they have some issues.Playing your stereo too loud and smoking cigarettes directly EFFECTS and BOTHERS other people, maybe the good Lord should punish those kinds of people. Last time I checked, there's no such thing as 2nd-hand masturbation, and no one knows I've done it unless they are told. So the premise of this debate goes out the window, in my book.

lol I'll figure out a way to give second hand masturbation

 

[Mastertank1]

I sometimes wonder

Read the book "Every Man's Battle" or get the tapes or video, all ur questions will be answered. It even brings up the question if it's still wrong 2 do it to girls who still have clothing on. U'll see how it is possible 2 break the habbit of masturbating and how 2 do it and how to control and get rid of those desires and thoughts that tempts us into doin them. Once u stop u'll be more free than ever, which is what God wants for us. He loves us man, he told us not 2 do certain things so that we would have a better life, not because he wants us 2 be miserable. That book will point out how alot of guys sex lifes with their wifes became sooooooooo much better once they quit masturbating and looking at porn. All the talk about "not masturbating" being unhealthy and stuff is all bs, God designed our bodies to get rid of our sperm so we don't have 2 masturbate, if u go like 3 days and don't have a wet dream by than u end up pissing it out. Alot of people will tell u it's not wrong because the devil wants us 2 keep doin it and tricks us into thinking its ok. Another reason some people will tell u it's not wrong is because if we stop doin it than that means less money for all the porn companies out there lol. Please get that book before u decide for urself if it's wrong or not. Peace of Christ and God bless u bro.

Why does a person with your beliefs, views and attitudes even frequent websites like these?
Do you feel that you have some duty to explain to the rest of us how wrong we are to do what we do and how sinful it is to like it, so that we can all be saved from the devil's traps?
Or, do you just enjoy letting us know how much you disapprove of us and our actions?
If you imagine that any of us care enough about your opinion to let it spoil our fun, you're quite wrong, you know.
Personally, I find you amusing, in a pathetic sort of way.
Please, keep it up. Good laughs are always welcome.

And remember: Chastity is it's own punishment, and there is no reward for it.

 

[Mastertank1]

Just incidentally;

Textual scholars of the Bible are in general agreement that the sexual prohibitions found in the bible were a later addition, by a different author than the main body of the text.
This would mean that even if you accept that the author of the main body of biblical text was God, those items were probably tacked on by a mere man sticking his two cents in.
What makes this even more probable is that they seem to be based on a belief, common at that time and place in history, which is now known to be quite untrue, That is the ancient belief that when a male human reached puberty, his body already contained all the sperm or 'seed' it would ever have. They were not aware that the human male body keeps manufacturing more 'seed' until it stops late in old age, and that frequent ejaculation will actually cause an increase in the production of semen.
This error in medical knowledge explains why every act which causes an ejaculation to happen in a place or in a manner that does not allow for at least the possibility of a baby being concieved is considered a sin; BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT A NON-RENEWABLE RESOURCE WAS BEING WASTED!
That simple mistake makes it all the more likely that God was NOT the author of those sexual prohibitions.
Humans might make a simple, dumb mistake like that, but God? I don't think so.

Then there is the medically established fact that regular climaxes improve human health, the more the better, up to a point of diminishing returns which for most people occurs at around 300 times per year. If you really worship a God who would make something that much fun that good for you and then make it a sin and punish you for doing it, I pity you. And, at the same time, I have this lovely bridge in NYC I'd like to sell you.

As for any book that is all about convincing people not to masturbate; any one who waste their time and effort writing such a book DESPERATELY needs to take a long vacation and jerk off a few times a day until they relax.
Any one who reads such a book, and is then guided by it and reccomends it to others, ditto doubled in spades and trumps!
Chill down man! You'll give yourself a heart attack!

 

[ReservedTickler]

Hey Mastertank1, i didn't know that in order 2 be a member here u had to play with urself while watching girls get tickled lol. Seriously though, I'm a member here because I have a tickling fetish and to meet people. I was just giving my oppinion on a blog another Christian started and tryin 2 help out some fellow Christians who believe that masturbating is wrong and that want 2 stop. U don't have 2 believe it, but some guys on here don't wanna live a life where they continually do something that they r ashamed of and that don't wanna have any secrets from there wife or gf and kids. Sure some girls don't care if the guy they r with does it, but some do and some get really really hurt when a guy does it. I'm not married yet but when I had or should I say have another gf I don't wanna do something that would hurt them whether they find out about it or not, and the kind of girls I date get real hurt if they have a bf that doesn't always take care of their heart and does something sexual with another girl behind their back whether it's in person or in his mind, go figure. And as for no reward for chastity, quotes from people like mother teresa r good enough to let me know that there r many: "A clean heart is a free heart. A free heart can love Christ with an undivided love in chastity, convinced that nothing and nobody will separate it from his love."

 

[Mastertank1]

Yah, Reserved, that's

about what I thought you'd say.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree about all that stuff. 😉
I have no question that Jesus loves you.
He don't much care for me though; he told me so himself, last time we spoke.
I guess I'm not his type.

God used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him to survive. 😛

 

[kayleybear]

Hello

Hey I'm not going to try to start any fights or anything so I'll just say this and let u guys chat about it. Mastertank, I think that there is a little miscommunication going on here and I think, unfortunantly, it is the same problem that has caused so much division between people and God. First off I just wanted to say that Jesus does love u no matter what you've done or think. Thats just the way it is and forgiveness is ALWAYS there. The second thing ( and this is where the miscommunication comes in) is that u said my points "depend on what denomination u belong" to or "sect" as u called it. Actually that is the exact opposite of what I was saying. God did not create denominations, man did. We've got our pick and choose way at looking at the bible when what it really comes down to, once again, is the heart behind what we are doing and what the bible says about it. What matters to God is the salvation issues (do u believe Jesus is the way to heaven, that He died for us, and that we accept Him as our saviour etc.) The other stuff is more of lifestyle stuff. And when I say "other" stuff I mean things that the bible doesn't talk about specifically. But we have taken so much of the bible out of context and tried to turn it into our own "denominations" or "religions" because when it comes down to it we just want to be right and to pick what is "important" to us. But thats what has created so much division between us. "Religion" (sorry I like quote marks lol)has caused separation. To follow Christ was never meant to be a religion it was meant to be a relationship with Him. We ruin that everytime we judge others, put ourselves above others, and especially when we make our own rules. Oh and televangelists drive me crazy!! Please dont think thats how christians are, they annoy us just as much if not more than they annoy u 😉 Heres one more example then I will stop, sorry its sooo long. Ok, swearing. Perfect example of where people, not God, has taken something and made it wrong and horrible and worthy of hell. All God says is not to take His name in vain. Thats it. We create all these swear words and then judge people we hear saying them and say "thats against God, thats horrible." I personally don't swear just because thats not who I am but if I hear someone else do it it doesn't rattle me because in the end it's just words. Though I would agree there are unappropriote times for it 😉 Anyways, to sum it all up, to the guy that started the post I am praying for u (seriously, I dont ever just say that) and for mastertank I hope that made sense. Again I'm not trying to be the goody two shoes here with my fairy dust (lol what?) but I do hate to see religion get in the way of what God really has for us, a true relationship with Him. Thanks for dealing with my giant post, Im sorry if it's too long! 😉 God Bless,

Kayley

 

[HisFlyinFingers]

First, the Bible, to my knowledge, never mentions masturbation; it specifically prohibits "pulling out" during intercourse, and many early theologians thought of masturbation as an act similar to pulling out.

Second, Mastertank's statement about the frequency of masturbation was accurate: 5 times a week is the optimal amount of masturbation for most men. Doing it every day or even several times a day won't likely cause any damage, but if you find yourself unable to ejaculate you should stop masturbating for a few days. Also, if you and your wife are attempting to get pregnant, try not to masturbate for 2-3 days prior to lovemaking, as this will increase the likelihood of fertilization.

Also, and I don't know whether I can stress this enough, this site is at least half pornographic. I don't mean to drive people away, but if you're checking out the pictures, clips or stories here, you're commiting a sin that in many theologians consider equal to or only slightly less wrong than masturbation. If you're feeling guilty about masturbating, you really shouldn't be thumbing through Playboy all the time, even if it is "just for the articles."

 

[Mastertank1]

Oh Kayley, your such a little sweetie.

Hey I'm not going to try to start any fights or anything so I'll just say this and let u guys chat about it. Mastertank, I think that there is a little miscommunication going on here and I think, unfortunantly, it is the same problem that has caused so much division between people and God. First off I just wanted to say that Jesus does love u no matter what you've done or think. Thats just the way it is and forgiveness is ALWAYS there. The second thing ( and this is where the miscommunication comes in) is that u said my points "depend on what denomination u belong" to or "sect" as u called it. Actually that is the exact opposite of what I was saying. God did not create denominations, man did. We've got our pick and choose way at looking at the bible when what it really comes down to, once again, is the heart behind what we are doing and what the bible says about it. What matters to God is the salvation issues (do u believe Jesus is the way to heaven, that He died for us, and that we accept Him as our saviour etc.) The other stuff is more of lifestyle stuff. And when I say "other" stuff I mean things that the bible doesn't talk about specifically. But we have taken so much of the bible out of context and tried to turn it into our own "denominations" or "religions" because when it comes down to it we just want to be right and to pick what is "important" to us. But thats what has created so much division between us. "Religion" (sorry I like quote marks lol)has caused separation. To follow Christ was never meant to be a religion it was meant to be a relationship with Him. We ruin that everytime we judge others, put ourselves above others, and especially when we make our own rules. Oh and televangelists drive me crazy!! Please dont think thats how christians are, they annoy us just as much if not more than they annoy u 😉 Heres one more example then I will stop, sorry its sooo long. Ok, swearing. Perfect example of where people, not God, has taken something and made it wrong and horrible and worthy of hell. All God says is not to take His name in vain. Thats it. We create all these swear words and then judge people we hear saying them and say "thats against God, thats horrible." I personally don't swear just because thats not who I am but if I hear someone else do it it doesn't rattle me because in the end it's just words. Though I would agree there are unappropriote times for it 😉 Anyways, to sum it all up, to the guy that started the post I am praying for u (seriously, I dont ever just say that) and for mastertank I hope that made sense. Again I'm not trying to be the goody two shoes here with my fairy dust (lol what?) but I do hate to see religion get in the way of what God really has for us, a true relationship with Him. Thanks for dealing with my giant post, Im sorry if it's too long! 😉 God Bless,

Kayley

I was being deliberately obtuse, irreverent and insulting because people like 'reserved' piss me off. I have a bumper sticker that reads; "GOD, protect me from your followers!"
My actual beliefs can be found in the thread about what we each actually believe elsewhere on this forum.
You might also find my post in the thread called another time and place interesting, and the reasons for it.
I believe unshakably that there is a God who created the universe.
I am absolutely certain that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT that God, nor the son of that God, nor divine in any way. He was a rabbi who tried to reform his religion (Judaism) and who MISTAKENLY thought that God had appointed him to throw the Romans out of Israel, re-establish the kingdom, become the first king of it's new dynasty, make Magdalene his queen and the mother of his hiers. There is ample evidence for this view, despite the attempts of various churches down the ages to suppress or destroy it. Just BTW, the word messiah, as Jesus and his contemporaries knew and understood it, meant that and only that; the man, inspired and aided by God, who would expel the Roman invaders and rebuild the kingdom of Israel.
All that stuff about bringing peace to the world was invented by Saul of Tarsus, aka St. Paul, and Jesus knew nothing about that and would have been appalled at the very idea, as he would at ANY denomination that calls itself Christian in the 21st century!
Did you know that some Jewish theologians refer to Christianity as the Pauline Heresy? It's a correct designation.

 

[Mastertank1]

Iwas sticking to what I know.

Master, we are all entitled to our beliefs and I am not going to debate yours vs. mine in depth. However, I am going to refute your claim that Jesus thought that he would, as you so eloquently put it, "throw the Romans out of Israel, re-establish the kingdom, become the first king of it's new dynasty, make Magdalene his queen and the mother of his hiers." I am Roman Catholic, and there is nothing in our scriptures to support any such claim...ESPECIALLY Jesus seeking to have a queen, rule as one of many kings of a dynasty, or bear any heirs. I find your insinuation of Jesus seeking to obtain supreme power of any kind over man to be quite offensive. I am also intrigued that you would be so bold as to speak for what would appall another person. Did Jesus tell you personally that he is ashamed of 21st century Christian denominations?

As for your patronizing of Kaley for her intelligent and mature response to your posts and your contempt towards Reserved--they meant no personal attack upon you or anyone at in this forum (until you lashed out at them)...their posts were simply aimed at educating those who are open to their opinions....If you are not, simply move along and stop polluting this thread with your hatred and misinformed "facts". I am glad you believe in a God...that is something I can't knock you for...but as for criticizing other denominations for THEIR beliefs when you yourself seem to have none (denomination): stick with what you know.

First of all, I was not patronizing Kayley; I was pointing out that she was being kinder and sweeter to me than I deserved under the circumstances. I used the word little because she is both far smaller than I am physically and less than half my age. It was not patronizing at all.

Second, I am a historian with some degree of recognition from those in that profession. I WAS talking about what I know. There are many sources of information surrounding the life and death of the man Jesus of Nazareth other than the bible. Those other sources are regarded as far more reliable for several reasons, the most cogent being that they are:

A) more contemporary, having been recorded at the time that the events took place, as opposed to the Gospels which were written from 60 to 120 years after the crucifixion, just for example.

B) more unbiased, as they were written down by people who generally iuntended them for their own personal perusal only, with no intent to publish, as opposed to being religious propaganda, which the gospels most certainly were.

Rather than directing you to original sources, most of which were written in classical Latin or Greek, or in Aramaic, I'll mention one of the better distillations for the modern reader of what was really going on then and there and what Jesus was really trying to accomplish.

The Title is "Revolt in Judaea", and the author is Oxford professor Haim Maccoby.
He also wrote "The Myth Maker", about how Saul of Tarsus (aka Saint Paul) is the real creator of the modern Christian religion, not Jesus, and another interesting volume called "Judas Iscariot And The Myth Of Jewish Evil" about how and why the gospels misrepresented the facts.
They should all be available from any good public or university library.

I also highly reccomend a book titled "Misquoting Jesus" which goes into all the astonishing number of copyist errors, erroneous corrections, and deliberate additions or ommissions that have distorted every modern version of the bible that we have available, including both the old and new testaments. The name of that author is Bart D. Ehrman, and he is a Christian biblical scholar for whom I have the utmost respect, a graduate of the Princeton Bible Institute, one of the most respected and prestigious Christian colleges in the USA.

As for my attitude towards Jesus, I respect him as an incredibly brave man, who tried to lead a rebellion to throw a hated and oppressive occupier out of his homeland. If I had been alive in that time and place, I like to think I would have been one of his followers in that military rebellion against Rome.

 

[nytoetapper]

I was going to keep out of this debate because I don't want to be drawn into a religious war, but I feel I must point something out quickly. I know what many who read this will say, and ultimately, you can have logic or faith, but it's nearly impossible to have both, especially on the subject of religion.

Here goes... This goes mostly for the old testament, but it is true of the book as a whole. The bible was written by MEN. And not just men, but community & spiritual leaders. Of COURSE they put much of what they "knew" at the time into it as instruction from God. Things about foods not to eat, sexual practices, etc. were largely guidelines to control people and prevent various illnesses. Bear in mind that any author, EVERY author, puts much of themself into any work. Also by saying that some unsafe or undesireable behavior was an affront to God, and that you would pay eternally for such a transgression, made it easier to keep followers in line.

Now I know that the devout will counter me with, "but these men wrote what God told them to." I will ask those people this. When is the last time you believed any person who claimed to be receiving messages from God? If the Pope came on television today and announced that God told him that much of what we were told in the bible was a lie, and that he was sent to deliver God's TRUE message, he would be denounced by the church and quite possibly locked away in a mental institution. And most of the "faithful" would totally disbelieve him. And this is the MAN who was chosen as the voice of God on earth.

Marx is quoted as saying that religion is the opiate of the masses(see below for full quote). Having grown up roman catholic, I have become increasingly disenfranchised with all religion and prefer to keep my relationship with God more personal. I do not justify the wrong that I do at times, but I DO question what many people consider to be wrong. Basically if you keep God in your heart, try to live right and cause others no harm, you should have no worries when you reach the end of your days.

OK, I have rambled on long enough. That's my 2 cents.

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions. - Karl Marx

 

[siamese dream]

Where does female masturbation fit into this whole debate? I mean, all this seed-spilling bull doesn't really apply to us girls 😀 From what I gather, some people think it's a sin because the guy isn't using his little swimmers to make babies, and some think it's a sin because of the lustful thoughts that go along with it. Girls masturbate too, friends! 😉 It's funny how the "sin" part only really seems to be thought out for male masturbation.

I find it funny that people try to find ways around what they fear to be sins... like with the original poster, saying that it wouldn't be lustful to think of a fully clothed woman being tickled. Come freaking on... if you think about anything and it turns you on enough to want to touch yourself, you are lusting! Not that there's anything wrong with that, I think lusting is rather fun personally, and I don't worry too much about sin. I know right from wrong without some religious figure telling me what I can and can't do in the privacy of my bed.

 

[siamese dream]

about what I thought you'd say.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree about all that stuff. 😉
I have no question that Jesus loves you.
He don't much care for me though; he told me so himself, last time we spoke.
I guess I'm not his type.

God used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him to survive. 😛

LOL


You know, what he wrote about girls being upset by their men masturbating, I can see how that might be true in some cases...I know there are a lot of girls who are maybe sexually repressed, and they're all "ewww!!" about masturbating. (not talking about anyone here, just girls I've known) Is this the common attitude? Ladies, what would you think if you caught your man full-on going at it with himself? 😀

Now as for me, I'd probably either
1. Ask if I could watch or help out with that
2. Laugh for like ten minutes straight 😀

Now men, what would you think if you caught your girl in the throes of self-luving? 😉 Would it upset you or would it be a turn-on?

 

[nytoetapper]

LOL Dream... As for me, I'd get out my camera 😉

And seeing as how you mentioned sexually repressed people, i think it's noteworthy that the more sexually repressed a people is the higher the instance of sexually deviant behaviour (not that that's always bad 😉 ).

 

[kayleybear]

hi again

Well, personally I'm tired of seeing everyone get mad at each other and secondly I'm kind of confused by some of the people replying to this post. I was under the impression that a christian guy was asking other christians in the forum what they thought about that specific issue and suddenly there's a bunch of fighting going on over stuff that has nothing to do with what was asked. It seems simple to me that if u don't believe the bible then why post in this particular thread? I mean dont get me wrong I love discussing faith and the bible, but when personal attacks start coming into play....I dunno I guess I just don't wanna be a part of it. I know christians seem to always be getting beat on and made fun of in the media and seemingly everywhere else but Jesus said it'd be like that. Even Mel Gibson was the king of hollywood until he made Passion of the Christ and ever since then he has been made fun of and shunned by hollywood and the media. Now I admit he has his problems, we all do because we are human, but that example to me shows how someone who was seemingly untouchable can still today be persecuted because of Christ. ANYWAY, please don't take what I've said and turn it into more argueing and personal attacks. Its sucks because I seriously love people and I just want to see EVERYONE go to heaven. Thats my heart, no hidden motives or scorecards. Im sorry if anything I've said has come across as an attack but I'm not sorry for believing what I know (and have seen) to be true. Be blessed u guys, I love u and I hope the negativity stops here. See ya, later.

Kayley

 

[Mastertank1]

Just my personal speculation;

Where does female masturbation fit into this whole debate? I mean, all this seed-spilling bull doesn't really apply to us girls 😀 From what I gather, some people think it's a sin because the guy isn't using his little swimmers to make babies, and some think it's a sin because of the lustful thoughts that go along with it. Girls masturbate too, friends! 😉 It's funny how the "sin" part only really seems to be thought out for male masturbation.

I find it funny that people try to find ways around what they fear to be sins... like with the original poster, saying that it wouldn't be lustful to think of a fully clothed woman being tickled. Come freaking on... if you think about anything and it turns you on enough to want to touch yourself, you are lusting! Not that there's anything wrong with that, I think lusting is rather fun personally, and I don't worry too much about sin. I know right from wrong without some religious figure telling me what I can and can't do in the privacy of my bed.

I have no research or documents to support this, nothing other than my knowledge of what the personalities of the elders of my tribe tend to be like.
I strongly suspect that when the tribal elders of the ancient Hebrews were writing down all the sexual rules designed to preserve what they erroneously believed to be a limited supply of sperm, one of said something like; "Hey, none of this applies to the women. So we won't forbid them to do any of this stuff?"
And the answer was approximately; "Hell no! Forbid them too! If we can't do these things, I'll be damned if we let them broads get away with it!"

As for me, if I walked in on my GF and she was doing herself, my first impulse would be to offer to help, and if that was refused I'd ask to watch. If I got a no on that too, I'd head for the kitchen and prepare a small snack for her for after she finished. I always try to be a thoughtful BF.

 

[Mastertank1]

Is cool, man.

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up since I'm not sure she would have took it that way in its original context.



For any one religion's book of scriptures that has become the foundation for modern fatih, you will always find thousands of works written with the specific purpose of refuting and disrupting the beliefs of its followers. The Bible, the Torah, the Koran, and others, all have been attacked for a very long time and yet they remain unchanged. I don't doubt your historical knowledge or your esteem amongst your colleagues. What I do doubt is the motives of the authors of the sources you cite as well as the veracity of their research in preparing such works.



The present text, we have reason to believe, was preceded by earlier drafts. If that is so, we could not say that the Gospel of St. Mark was written in 45, as we can say, for example, that Second Corinthians was written in 55 or 56.
If we accept the Gospels as the inspired word of God, does it really matter, when they were written? In the days when everyone accepted the traditional dating, one could perhaps have dismissed the question as unimportant. But those days are long gone. Ever since Reimarus (1694-1768) sought to convict the evangelists of conscious fraud and innumerable contradictions, his rationalist followers have put the writing of the Gospels late, in order to lessen their value as sources of reliable information about the life of Christ and his teaching.



So...you are saying your sources' authors wrote these materials for themselves and not for public use--why is that...because they feared the rebellion that their contradictory, inflammatory, and possibly blasphemous ideas would rouse?



It doesn't surprise me that a staunch Jew, in fact a Rabbi, as I believe Maccoby is if I am not mistaken, would write books to "clarify" Jesus' true intent since they do not believe in his divinity. Nor am I surprised that Rabbi Maccoby would write a book refuting the evil nature of the Jews, as he has interpreted is the sentiment of other people towards his religion



I do not argue that the Bible has become indefinitely watered down through the many centuries since it was written. I do, however, believe that much of the underlying intent of Jesus' works and teachings remain unaffected, even if they are presented in a more mystical or aesthetically impressive light. I can say that today I won a new car at a raffle...I can then say that today I won a new car after finding the wining ticket on the floor while walking around at the raffle. Either way I still won a new car, it's just more astounding when told in the second manner. Simply because the Bible may be more colorful with its teachings than the original versions, through copy errors, translation dilution, or any other such literary mishap, doesn't mean it should be thrown into the pile and burned as a book of falsehoods.



This here, shows exactly how much you know about Jesus. Jesus taught peace, forgiveness, and love. He never took a hand to another, even when they assaulted, tortured, and murdered him on a cross. Did Peter lash out during his capture, yes. That is the ONLY violent act of which I am aware that occurred during any event in the life of Jesus, by his followers. This Man was not sent to "destroy the Romans and build a kingdom, take Magdalene as his queen, have children, and rule the era" as you mentioned before. He was not trying to mount a physical rebellion, but open peoples' eyes to the truth of how to redeem their soul, so as to access the enless fruits of the Eternal Paradise. His message was not about rebellion in the physical sense, but rebellion against the misled and hedenous nature of the people at that time. His PURPOSE, if you are interested, was to defeat satan, by changing the hearts of the people, and by doing so, to open the gates of Purgatory and allow those souls and all those after who are deserving, to attain everlasting peace and happiness in Heaven. Thus, be glad you weren't around during His time, for you would have been a terribly bored soldier in an army of one.

As for your historical expertise, again, I do not doubt your knowledge, or ability to research or provide counters to any of my points. I actually found your analysis of the word Messiah to be very informative. I did not know of its many other meanings and was happy to see its original context as opposed to its current connotation. Yet, just as most doctors look to explain medical miracles with biological explanations and cast off those they can't by claiming they are "simple anomalies", so do historians look to support, explain, or refute all events in time by using written records and physical evidence from those time periods(...much of which, I might add, is not available due to destruction by time). Regardless of whether you would be able to truly refute or be made to submit to current beliefs if ALL of the evidence was available to you, FAITH, is not a nuts and bolts issue. FAITH is part fact, and part belief in what your eyes do not see and your ears do not hear.

PS--Don't misunderstand me as assaulting your character, knowledge, or belief in what you believe. We are all entitled to our beliefs as I said before. All I am looking to ensure is that the opinions expressed regarding my and other people's religions are done so in a respectful manner, even if they conflict with your own. If they had been done so here originally, I would not have felt the need to post. I am Catholic, like I said before, but I have friends of many faiths, and have attended many of their unique services at one time or another--even though I do not neccessarily believe or agree with plenty of things that are said--I remain open to hearing the differences because I can appreciate the variety of ideas on the same subject that are available today.

I do appreciate your belief in A GOD, regardless of denomination, since that is something many people still lack these days. I also appreciate your challenging responses and interesting contentions. 😎

I guess we just agree to disagree with mutual respect.

A question; I've never seen how evolution contradicts creation. Personally, I believe that God created the current diversity of species by commanding His original creation of life to evolve into the forms he envisioned and desired.
Does that sound at all plausible to one who belives in the bible, or does it just sound like sophistry? I'm really interested in your opinion on that.

I know, I know, it's off topic and I apologize. After this I'll return control of the thread to it's originator and shut my big yap.

 

[Mastertank1]

Oddky enough (or so it appears)

Yes...I'll bury the hatchet along side yours since we both could probably debate this subject for a much longer time than anyone would be interested in reading!

Regarding your question: I never really considered it quite as you put it. In researching the different views on the matter, I came across this rather lengthy analysis:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/evolutio.htm

Based upon our prior debate I would have been looking for the scientific point of view from you, but you've intrigued me with presenting your view from the Theistic Evolution approach. I myself find agreement in three categories; the New Earth Creationists, the Old Earth Creationists, and the Theistic Evolutionists. I believe in the six day creation, but that as with some of the other events in the Bible, that this may simply be a symbolic "six days" which actually took a longer period of time, yet I also find truth in evolution being used as a tool by God for His divine purpose. Conversely, I don't support the "Big Bang Theory", or any scientific claim that God did not create the earth or that we evolved into human beings from spacedust after a cosmic cataclysm.

I think that too often people generalize the issue between evolution and creation, mistakenly thinking that evolution is a God-less phenomenon and that Divine Creation is a science-less account of the origin of life. I believe that neither life, nor its evolutionary processes could exist without both God, and natural science a.k.a. the nature of living things.

How does that sit on your side?

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Edit: My apologies as well for this being off-topic...depending on Master's reply we may end up with our own thread lol.

It was my very extensive readings in general science, particularly cosmology,geology,paleontology and biology, which convinced me that there has to be a God.
The universe is far too intricate and wonderful, and the conditions that would allow not just life, but life like ours, capable of developing self awareness, to arise on our world too rare and precarious for it to have happened by blind chance.
There had to be a guiding intelligence with both the power and the will to create these things in order for it to turn out the way it has. That's why I believe in God.
That's why I've always thought that if there was a big bang, God made it happen.
If the matter and energy that came from the big bang organized themselves into the atoms, molecules, planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies and all that we see around us, it had to be because God commanded that it happen that way.
If life arose on our world and evolved into all the forms we see around us, oncluding our self aware (I won't say intelligent; jury is still out on that one) selves, then it had to be by God's will. That's what I believe, and I don't see any contradiction between science and creation.
If the big bang happened, that doesn't mean God didn't create the universe by that method, if evolution happened, and the proof of that is pretty overwhelming at this point, that doesn't mean God didn't create life through that instrumentality.
Bottom line, I guess your beliefs and mine on that point are quite comaptible.
Good to know.
Just in passing, there's a difference in the way i repond to someone who intelligently disagrees with me and has an open mind, as opposed to the way I respond to someone who comes on all sanctimonius (how the blank is that spelled anyway?) and like "I am the sole possessor of revealed truth".

 

[Hapless Ticklee]

To put matters in perspective...

There's a lot happening on this planet that (if such a being exists) would surely occupy God's attention (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc,.)

This planet is, in the larger scheme of things - just a small rocky world orbiting a fairly common type of star in our galaxy of many billions of stars.

And that's just one of many billions of galaxies in the universe that we know of.

I think it's fair to say that God's got a lot to concentrate on, and in all probability has neither the time or the inclination to worry about you wanking.

 

[Deadsea7777]

I have already confirmed that masturbation is a sin, when you have unpure thoughts, such as porn, sex, nudity, but is it still considered a sin if you masturbate watching fullyclothed foot tickling?

Well, I will reccomend you to read "Solitary Sex, A Cultural History of Masturbation" by Thomas W. Laqueur, Professor of History a the University of California Berkeley, 2003. You can get it by Amazon.
Whatever you want to know about it is in there, fully great 500 pages on the topic.

 

[LItickleree]

Hi guys, I just wanted to say I think the bible is pretty clear on what is sin and what isnt. We like to complicate things and try to think of strange situations where something might or might not be sin. It always comes back to the heart behind the action. Sex is not a sin. The bible is clear on that because God created it for us. The act of masturbation I do not believe to be a sin in all cases. But that is the tricky part, its the act that is not a sin, however the thoughts behind the act very well can be. Again the bible is clear that "lusting" is a sin unless it is for your husband or wife. So, if you can masturbate without lusting after someone then you havent sinned (try that one lol). Anyway, for the people that are quoting priests and pastors remember one thing. They are just people too. We all have opinions about things or judge when God says not to so just keep that in the back of your mind. Read the bible and find out what it says for yourself, dont rely on what others say. Good counsel is great but God wants a relationship with us not a religion, so just trust in what God says, not man. Ok, I think that made sense, at least I hope so lol Good night!

sorry for resurecting an old thread, but i was board and just reading over the whole thing. I must agree with the above statment. God and jesus said to spread the word, not create a religion. Im catholic, ive been confermed etc etc, but i believe the roman catholic church is pretty corrupt, but thats the nature of humans, power corrupts. Since when did god say that people had to pay for salvation lol, doesnt that sound kinda silly, if you know anything about history youll know that this use to go on a lot before the whole enlightenment age when the church was not seperate from the state. And if jesus came back and he went to the vatican, i really dont think hed be happy seeing all those poor people in the holy city, he wouldnt be happy with alot of religions and if he did come back hed probably cry himself to death of all the bad things going on. Anyway, i dont remeber seeing anything in the bible saying masturbation was a sin. The church played a very large role in family values and im sure lots of these "sins" that we have today, such as masturbation, and words other then damn, and ones that include god or jesus, are consider sins now because people didnt want their children to do it. Think about it, a mother walks into a room and her child is masturbating, is creeped out doesnt want her child doing it goes to the priest asks what should she do, priest tells her tell him its bad and if he does it hes going to hell. lol, im joking alittle bit but hopfully some people understand where im coming from and alot of sins were probably formed like this.

In all seriousness, i cant say whether i believe in God or not, its hard to just believe words when theres also scientific facts. I try to be open minded and take in a bit of everything, and i dont tell people no theres no God, i really hope there is one. I just believe in doing good things and being a good person, trying never to hurt anyone or anything. And to you other catholics if you took offense to anything i said, im sorry but i dont mean the whole entire catholic community is corrupted just some of it, but that goes for alot of religions, like muslim for example, yes there are so freaken pyscos out there like the people involved in 911 thinking they are doing something in the name of Alah, but there are some muslims out there that are good and are not brainwashed.

 

[Ticklemmmeeeeee]

I personally believe that (as tkl duo ann wrote) the sin is in the intent. God knows my heart and when I get weak and slip and do something I later deem as sinful and I repent to Him Jesus forgives me...however, disregarding God's will and engaging in whatever I want whenever I want is serving myself not God. I personally value my relationship with God more than serving my own needs every time I have the urge to do so , so I do my best to refrain from things I know in my heart are against God's will. But I am far from perfect, so when faced with temptation, Praying helps🙂
~tm

 

[Mastertank1]

Some perspective here.

If you are a person for whom the original question of this thread has any real meaning, then you believe that God created us all.

Even though I'm not a Christian, I believe that too.

God created us in such a form that sex leading to orgasm is the single most intense physical pleasure we can experience, and also created us in such a form that orgasms, up to a point of diminishing returns of about 300 times per year, are actually good for us, improving our health.

A God who would do that, and then tell us that to enjoy that aspect of the way we were created, in any way that cannot lead to making a baby within clergy sanctioned wedlock, is a sin, and that if we commit that sin we will burn in the torments of hell forever (Or, if we pay a clergyman to intercede for us, in purgatory for several thousand years, gee what a break!), is not a loving and compassionate being.

A God who would play that filthy a trick on thier own creations is a cold hearted, sadistic monster. I don't believe that God exists. I believe in a God who wants us to enjoy the capacity for pleasure that was built into us when we were made, as long as we don't hurt each other in the process.

For those of who do believe in a God who would create us to feel a great pleasure and then savagely punish us for enjoying it, the kindest, most compassionate thing I can do for you is to sincerely pray that you are wrong, and that the God you believe in does not exist while the one I believe in does.

If the God you believe in exists, you and I and everyone else who is not a saint (and who do we know who is?) will eventually be punished in hell, or in purgatory if you believe in that, for breaking one or another of the myriad rules. I will surely be punished for not believing in that God.

If the God I believe in is the one who exists, you will be forgiven for not believing in him, and no one will be punished for merely enjoying their own humanness.

I sincerely pray for you, that your your God is not real and that mine is.

I expect some of you to flame me for this, which will only prove my point.

 

[ReservedTickler]

I disagree with what was said above about Jesus not wanting a religion whether u believe the Catholic faith is the right one or not. I could throw out scripture verses that says the word "church" in it or how Jesus instructed his apostles 2 do alot more than just "preach" such as cast out demons, heal the sick, baptise people, forgive sins, ect. But I think with reason alone and of course prayer u can figure this out. I think it's man that says there shouldn't a religion, not God. If God does exists than he knows how everyone sees everything differently and that people r like scattered sheep at times and need a shepherd, a leader, someone 2 point out what a certain verse really means or to give hope, guidance and help anyone who needs help. U need leaders and organization, like u do for any battle and life is a spirital battle for a Chirstian. I agree there r corrupt people everywhere and that man makes mistakes, even one of Jesus' apostles turned out to do something evil and betray him, but that didn't stop Jesus, and it shouldn't stop us even though there r bad people out there. Look at all the good things religions do, especially Christian ones. Like all the charities, and if u look at history, besides from all the negative stuff, look at who held Europe together after the fall of the Roman Empire during all the barbarian invasions lol, the church at that time did. And as for the masturbation question, where does the bible say it's ok lol? If it was healthy and every guy should do it, I think it would be in there and that it would of been taught as ok since the beginning. Yeah Jesus said not 2 go thinkin about committing adultery with someone and I've thought about tryin 2 work a way around that by thinkin of someone I'm not married 2 but I don't know about other guys but when I masturbate different girls constantly pop in my head whether I want them 2 or not lol, plus one day those girls will be married so I believe guys really don't have authority 2 even think about doin something sexual with a girl that's not married. But I don't think Jesus specifically said that "playing with your urself" was wrong or whatever because it was always understood 2 be wrong with the jewish religion, just like fornication was which is a different topic. Anyway I think that alot of people don't realize anymore what Jesus meant about having to "carry your cross".. Tryin not 2 masturbate can be real hard at times, any person that tries 2 live a good life has it hard. It makes sense, if there is a devil who is he going to go after, someone who's bad or is tryin 2 be good? But I truly believe that the sacrifice will really pay off in the end and that man can be more strong and endure alot more than he thinks. I mean when I hear stories of wifes seein their husbands having 2 look at a playboy magezine b4 makin love because they can't get turned on by their wife's appearance anymore because she gained some extra weight or whatever, I think that's messed up and that porn honestly blinds people from seeing true beauty. I mean they say if ur stranded on an island with a girl ur not attracted 2 and don't see any other girls for a long time u'll change and will be. Y not choose 2 do that out of love for ur wifes whether u believe in God or not and y not break the habit of masturbating now instead of struggling with it in marriage? I think guys that don't look at porn see the true beauty in their wife or girfriends and appreciate them and life more. I'm not sayin we should date people we aren't attracted 2, but as time goes by alot of people sometimes get tired of their spouses or maybe see someone else more attractive, i hear if u feed that desire with impure thoughts though, than it makes it real hard. If ur on a diet, is thinkin about eating cake all the time goin 2 help lol? Look at all the divorces now a days and couples who cheat on each other. And I don't know about other guys but at one time the only way I could get turned on with my x gf when I was with her was with tickling, and sometimes she didn't feel like bein tickled and I felt like shit when I made out with her and wasn't turned on and she was. But after taking my priest's advice and not look at porn for a while, and tryin as hard as I could 2 not think about tickling girls anymore all the time (which I feel is impure and unholy from me since it turns me on) i changed and started getting turned on in other ways when I was with my girlfriend, it was great, it honestly felt like a miracle, tickling still turned me on but kissing turns me on as well now. A guys girl may not be the most beautiful girl in the world in the eyes of other guys, especially when alot of them always focus their eyes on air brushed porn models or what society tells people what girls r hot or not, but if a guy chooses 2 listen 2 God and devote not only his heart but his eyes 2 his girl, than God will help him see how beautiful she really is and appreciate her more. Sex is great, God made it that way, and by not masturbating and being holy I think and am told that experience can be even better. Whatever happened 2 honor? U can believe what u want but I know, at least for me, through personal experience which I think was God's way of helping me find out the answer 2 the truth that I always prayed about, that I'm better off not masturbating. Some people say that it's unhealthy, but look at all the guys who take the vow of celebacy and live 2 be real old. Look at all the saints who have struggled with it. If ur Christian, my advice is to look at this from both sides before u stop praying about it and make a decision that could affect ur life and marriage.

 

[Mastertank1]

Reserved, please.

The so-called new testament is hardly an accurate guage of what Jesus said and did during his life on earth as human because;
1-None of the men who wrote it ever met Jesus
2-None of the men who wrote it ever heard Jesus speak
3-None of the men who wrote it were ever in the same place at the same time as Jesus
4-(This is the most important point) At the time when the new testament was written, ALL of the men who wrote it were already committed to promoting the new religion created by Saul of Tarsus (you probably think of him as Saint Paul) and EVERYTHING they wrote on the topic of religion was propaganda designed to promote the new organization and power structure masquerading as a religion.

The kindest, most compassionate thing I can do for you is to sincerely pray that you are wrong, and that the God you believe in does not exist while the one I believe in does. I do so pray for you.
Why?
Because if the God you believe in exists, any human who is not a saint will end up in hell for breaking one rule or another. If the God I believe in exists, only those who have deliberately and willfully done needless harm to other people will recieve punishment.
If you believe God created us, then God made us such that we enjoy masturbation.
To do that, and then to send us to hell if we indulge in the very pleasure that God designed us to enjoy is the act of a sadistic monster. It is certainly not the act of a loving and merciful God.
I refuse to worship any God who commits any such a depraved act.
If I go to hell for that, so be it.
If God sends people to hell for masturbating, the Devil is probably a more reasonable being to deal with. I'll offer him my services in planning the next assault on heaven. With my help, maybe he'll win. I'm a damned good (pun intended) tactician and strategist.
The Apostate Of Pittsburgh
aka

 

[Vae]

Back to the topic....

Well, I read most of the posts in this thread. I'm not about to have a religious debate, the validity of Christianity or the validity of the Bible. God and I have it pretty good, I think, so I'm not going to argue that fact. But here's what I have to say about masturbation. Please excuse me if it's a bit, eh, simplistic.

Christianity. It's most basic concept, from what I've learned (I was born, raised, baptized and confirmed Roman Catholic), is that Christians receive salvation through suffering (I can go into more detail on this later for those who think I'm bullshitting). Masturbation is not suffering; its granting oneself pleasure by fantastizing about sex (or fetishism, in this case). Fantasies make light of the sexual act, according to Christians, as it is not about reproduction and the magic of childbearing and child birth. Fantasies also make people objects of one's desires, something God did not intend people to be. People are God's most precious gifts, not for self-satisfying moments of personal pleasure.

So, in other words.

Christianity = suffering for salvation.
Masturbation = not suffering.
Masturbation = not suffering != suffering for salvation;
Masturbation = bad.