Members Misrepresenting Themselves

[..Glamorous..]

if she was paid for her time, and laughter, then i don't see a problem!
is in his ad he said it was for a video, then it wasn't, she could have left!
in this fetish we all embelish, and use trickery from time to time. you're making a mt. out of a mole hill.

steve

Speak for yourself, buddy!

 

[DimpleToes]

By bringing this to the attention of the general forum you have done the right thing. Models will know to ask "questions" before agreeing to any meeting.

It isnt necessary to "out" this person, though I certainly think he deserves it.... May others be warned that they WILL be found out if they attempt to do the same type of thing...

amen.. now women hopefully will check the person out before hand even is checking with the mods in here about the person. I do that even with freind request I get.. if I dont know the person.. you bet I am gonna do a check on them or even if it is talking privately in chat room..

Go to any modeling page and look at their pictures. Photographers need to have talent, and creating good looking photos is difficult. It's a bit different for us, because we're just tickling, but most producers have their own studio and/or professional equipment. I don't know anybody in this business who isn't into tickling, but I know I keep things very professional. I've got a F/F shoot tonight and I'm going to be concerned with focus, lighting, exposure, camera angles, etc... not drooling in the corner.

that you.. love producers who are there for a job.. not a personal sex issue. that is a whole different topic. Your the man..hugssssssssss

 

[Knot Amewzed]

There is a difference between a professional project and some jerkoff with a cheap camera who just wants a naked woman in his house.

What if that cheap jerkoff, with a piss poor camera, decides to sell the project down the road?

 

[kdakmmt]

Like with a professional photographer doing a nude shoot. I can never totally obviate that he will enjoy looking at my nude body, but he will have seen so many before that it is nothing unusual to him.

I had a roommate that was naked 90% of the time she was home, didnt mean I didnt stop to enjoy the view on occasion.

 

[DimpleToes]

What if that cheap jerkoff, with a piss poor camera, decides to sell the project down the road?

Then we will send you after him to take care of that issue.

 

[MrInc]

Seeing as we dont know who the person is we have hardly assauted his rep...and seeing that the ad was puled shortly after this thread was started......well....think what you will...personally I think the person in question was less than honest about his intentions...

Once the name comes out this is moot. And I don't really care if it was removed, we don't have the text to judge for ourselves, only the hearsay of other people.

 

[Acidosis]

There is a difference between a professional project and some jerkoff with a cheap camera who just wants a naked woman in his house.

Not really.

I mean you guys are making a huge deal out of something ridiculous. Did you forget you're basically peddling porn? It doesn't really matter whether or not you're jerking off to it as you shoot it (or some later date); the whole point is that you're shooting it to make money off of other people jerking off to it.

I don't get why people are acting all noble and offended all of a sudden.

 

[Oddjob0226]

The last time talk of 'outing' someone was brought up on the TMF for a legitimate privacy reason (a guy secretly videotaped a session to a woman then offered the video to her husband) Jeff entered the thread and told us all to scatter.

So it won't happen.

And as Ven says, since the safety issue and common-sense reiteration has occured in this thread, outing isn't needed; the bigger issue has been adressed - Don't fake yourself to others, andbe cautious when engaging with others.

Don't deprive yourself of fetish fun, nor live in constant fear of others tryign to get you. Just level out, be smart & keep it real homes, word.

 

[rhiannon]

I had a roommate that was naked 90% of the time she was home, didnt mean I didnt stop to enjoy the view on occasion.

Enjoying it and getting all horny about it are two different things.

What if that cheap jerkoff, with a piss poor camera, decides to sell the project down the road?

No problem if he has a model release! It's the model's decision if she wants to work with someone who doesn't know what he's doing. I still think she should have investigated further before even going there.

It doesn't really matter whether or not you're jerking off to it as you shoot it (or some later date); the whole point is that you're shooting it to make money off of other people jerking off to it.

As I already said, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!! Because the model most likely doesn't want to be IN THE SAME ROOM with the guy jerking off!

 

[Knot Amewzed]

Use this ad instead...

Would it make everyone feel warm and cozy if the ad stated...

42 year old, white pervert, looking to cheaply film a tickle session that would potentially be up for sale in the near future. Mild to moderate jerking off may occur during the session, but please expect a full release of my fluids once you leave my establishment. You will be paid the same as if you were hired by Zen Tickling or Tickle Abuse, but I do lack the professional equipment and persona required by the business. Hell, I may never sell your video, but the experience is one that you can tell your friends. By the way, do you have any friends?

 

[rhiannon]

You know, it's enough if someone just says he looks for a girl who will let him tie and tickle her in a private session instead of acting like a producer of fetish vids!

 

[Acidosis]

If a model isn't smart enough to research the producer she's planning on booking, then he / she probably shouldn't be modeling in the first place.

 

[rhiannon]

I agree that it is part of the problem that the model didn't research better!

But that doesn't make it right to trick people into something like that! That would be like punishing people who were a victim of fraud for not realizing they were tricked!

You have to remember that most models are pretty young still!

 

[ZenTickling]

Would it make everyone feel warm and cozy if the ad stated...

42 year old, white pervert, looking to cheaply film a tickle session that would potentially be up for sale in the near future. Mild to moderate jerking off may occur during the session, but please expect a full release of my fluids once you leave my establishment. You will be paid the same as if you were hired by Zen Tickling or Tickle Abuse, but I do lack the professional equipment and persona required by the business. Hell, I may never sell your video, but the experience is one that you can tell your friends. By the way, do you have any friends?

Why are you being so dense? All the guy had to do was be honest and up front about the situation. The ad should have been posted in the personals section, not the jobs section.

Also, you can't just decided to sell a video a year later. If you don't have all the paperwork filled out (which he most likely wouldn't for a personal session) you would most definitely be sued at some point.

I already stated that I'm not outing anybody, just bringing up the issue.

I am aware that I produce a form of sexual material, and I'm not ashamed of it. Life's too short not to be true to yourself. However, I am never deceitful when it comes to contacting a model, and I go out of my way to make the experience as professional as possible. That's probably why nearly all of my models have returned for multiple shoots.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Enjoying it and getting all horny about it are two different things.

!!!

Your "Handbook to Guys" is missing a chapter.

 

[Knot Amewzed]

Why are you being so dense? All the guy had to do was be honest and up front about the situation. The ad should have been posted in the personals section, not the jobs section.

Wow; that must have been the first time anyone has ever called me dense. I am not condoning the lack of honesty, just making a funny at the expense of the lack of intelligence of both parties. If by reading my previous posts you find me to be on the side of the poster, you may be the one that needs clarity of the cranium.

I did however question the comment of getting a blow job from a hooker not being a private session.

 

[rhiannon]

Your "Handbook to Guys" is missing a chapter.

Maybe I deal with guys who have more facets than "being horny" and "not being horny".

I did however question the comment of getting a blow job from a hooker not being a private session.

I still think if she gets paid for it it's a professional session. If she doesn't charge, it's private. But that's just how I define it, you can think about it whatever you want, I highly doubt there is such a thing as the whore handbook!

 

[Oddjob0226]

Maybe I deal with guys who have more facets than "being horny" and "not being horny".

Is there such thing? Fascinating phenomenon!

 

[rhiannon]

Is there such thing? Fascinating phenomenon!

I was also very surprised to learn that!

 

[Phineas]

I still think if she gets paid for it it's a professional session. If she doesn't charge, it's private.

Whether or not she charges isn't what makes it a private session. What makes it a private session is whether it's being done with the intent to market the material or not (assuming any material is even made), because then it becomes about creating a product (which is what models do) versus gratifying the "employer" (which is what prostitutes do). For most private sessions, there is no filming. Hence my question as to whether or not the dude who posted the ad even had a camera.

As I mentioned before, models are not prostitutes - and the focus of a modelling session is not on the immediate gratification of the producer.

Now, is that to stop the producer from remembering the session fondly later on as he rubs one out? No, of course not - but a professional will keep that from happening during a shoot because yes, it makes models uncomfortable to be directly ogled and leered at.

What makes a professional? Unfortunately, Rhiannon is right - professionalism makes a professional. What is professionalism? It's defined by the model. Some models won't work with photographers who don't have a full studio with all the trimmings. (BTW, they have a term for the "guy with a cheap camera" - it's called GWC, or "guy with camera". Some models won't work with them at all). Other models will work with a GWC if he has good references or the shoot itself seems worth the effort.

Just to diverge for a moment, some of you may remember that a few years ago I was actively photographing models for a video game I was working on. I was the epitome of the GWC - shoots were done at my house, with a cheap camera, and I couldn't afford to pay them. Many models told me to take a hike when I approached them, but at least one professional did take me seriously due to my presentation (I had screenshots to E-mail her and demo'd the game for her when she arrived - with her escort, of course). I carried myself well, we had fun, and she was glad to give me recommendations when I attempted to recruit others.

That's professionalism - building a reputation through treating people with respect, regardless of the size of your operation. A GWC can be professional, and I've heard stories from some models that some "pro" photographers aren't always. Models talk - if a photographer treats them badly, word spreads and soon no one will work with him.

Some models do, in fact, do private shoots as long as they're told up front that the resulting video is solely for the photographer's personal collection. Our own Wall$treet used to do those kinds of videos before he started sharing them with the community, if I recall. However, you really have to bend over backwards to prove you're on the up-and-up before a model will take that kind of job (at her discretion, of course - everything is ALWAYS at the model's discretion), but if you conduct yourself professionally (there's that word again) and don't wave your dick in her face the next time 'round it'll be easier because you'll have built up a reputation for being a respectable employer.

 

[rhiannon]

Phineas, the sentence you quoted was about a prostitute, not about a model.

Apart from that, I totally agree with everything you wrote.

 

[ikaiyoo]

Apparently she saw a craigslist ad looking for ticklish models, and it sounds like a 'professional' tickling producer. She went to the shoot expecting exactly that. When she got there, she was extremely surprised (and uncomfortable) to find that it was actually a private session. An escort accompanied her, so she was totally safe.. But still. A member here wanting a private tickle session should not be impersonating a tickling producer.

The ad requires women of a certain age and foot size. A picture is required, and the women are paid hourly. It is posted under the jobs/gigs section.

I'm a bit uncertain whether or not to unmask this person. To a fetish model I think it would appear to be legitimate work, and I think this person should have made it very clear that this was a personal session. Thoughts?

Ok First of all no you shouldn't out them. It isn't your place, or your right, to publicly out this person for doing what they allegedly did. If you have a problem with it then contact CL and have the ad removed. Outside of that This has absolutely nothing to do with this forum or it's members. Even if one of its members is the accused.

So she saw an ad on craigslist and responded to it, did she ask for references? Did she ask to see the website selling said clips? Did she come to this forum, tickle theater, or another fetish forum asking around to other producers about the credibility of this person? If she didn't then that is her fault for being overly naive about the honesty of craigslist ad's in the first place.

Have you spoken to the accused? Was he truly looking for a "private" session or was he looking to shoot a video that he may or may not decide to distribute in the near future? How was he not a video producer? Did his camera not have film in it? Was he not intending on turning the camera on?

Define for me "professional" tickling producer. Are we talking equipment quality? Are we talking having the legal paperwork in order? Are we talking about the environment that is being used for a "scene"? I am unclear on what differentiates an amateur, professional or hobbyist tickling producer.

What I was thinking. She told me she expected the 'job' to be almost identical to what her and I do.. Meaning a professional experience, model release form, etc. That wasn't what she got, and she said it was a little creepy.

Well that once again was her fault for expecting it to be "identical" to what you and her do. Everyone isn't going to handle themselves the same way you do in a shoot. Not everyone is going to be "professional" especially starting out. There is a learning curve to the film business.

I introduced her to the 'tickling world'. The only reason this guy knows about her is because of me. The only reason she knows about tickling fetishes and tickling videos is because of me. We have become friends after working together, and I don't like seeing her being tricked.

Ok no this guy "knows" about her because she responded to the ad. You had no part in that. You introduced her to the film industry to. So if she decides that she wants to do a BDSM or a watersport video it not be within her comfort level and she tells you about it will you go join those forum and "out" those people as well? And unless you talk to him about this it is still unclear if she was tricked or if she walked into something that wasn't what she was accustomed to.

It's a question of trust! If you get tricked into something like that with false information, why would you let the person tie and tickle you?

And then it's a question of professionalism too. It IS a difference if a private person or a producer tickles you! A producer has to worry about technical shit to get a clip that he can sell. Filming a clip is not sexy at all.

When I do erotic photos, I want it to be a photographer who will worry about the lighting and the background more than staring at my naked body. He doesn't have to do that anyways, because he has seen plenty of naked women before.

If a guy who just bought a camera came in and wants to take nudes of me, running around with a hard-on the whole time - uh, yeah, that is a difference! It's about sex then, not about the photos.

That's what it comes down to with being tickled by a private person vs. Producer as well!

Ok first of all, unless you are making a tickling fetish video with Vivid, Wicked, Diabolic Video, or the like, it is all a private person doing it. Now they might carry themselves a little different and have a professional attitude, but the majority of "professional" tickling producers are private people who have been regarded as a professional producer through their reputation in the community. They are still amateur producers.

And when you do erotic photos I hope you have the presence of mind to do your homework on the person before you actually decide to agree to the shoot. And no I personally know professional photographers who have seen plenty of naked women before and still get aroused by certain things they photograph if it falls inline with their own desires. They might not sit there and gawk and they may not express it verbally, but they still get aroused.

And if a guy is first starting out in the business, gravitates doing niche photos of his own fetishes and interests (which a lot of them do because unless you are into it and have a passion for it you will not capture that emotion on film and the picture will be sterile and generic), they probably will have a hard time not seeing their fetish in front of them and getting somewhat aroused. Christ, guys will still an erection if they are walking buy a table and a woman is dangling her heel if they are into that. You think that a guy who is into that with a person there doing the same thing while he is behind the camera will not?

As I already said, it is different if it is about the product that comes out in the end (=clip) or just about the sexual urges of the tickler!

And it is a difference if the tickler does it regularly (=producer) or is a private person and most likely never did it before. A producer has enough decency and professionalism not to go too far. You don't have that safety with a private person!

If they are filming the product regardless if they are recording it for their own personal library or intend to mass market it and sell it to the public they are still filming it they still have to worry about the camera shots and the angles. They still have to worry about the lighting... All of these things that differentiates the professional producers from us mere mortals... Not that I am but If I were to pay someone to come to my house so I could film myself tickling them and had no intentions on selling said product so basically I am not out my investment you better BELIEVE I am going to have that shoot be PERFECT.

So what you are saying is that unless they are a producer they do not have the control to know when it is enough? So out of the 80000 plus members on this forum ONLY the 20 or so who "produce" know when enough is enough or is a safe person?

I think we are lacking some specific facts here. Forgive my bluntness, but so far it is just your one-sided story based on personal perception. You said the craiglist ad "sound[ed] like a 'professional' tickling producer." And then this whole misrepresentation matter is based on this "sound". Well, what sounds like one thing to one person may sound like something else to another. Is it possible that this misrepresentation is just misunderstanding? If you want our thoughts, why don't you provide the specific facts to us first? What exactly does the ad say? Did you see the ad personally? Or are you relying on the model's perception of the ad?
I agree that misrepresentation is bad, but did this guy actually made a misrepresentation? I do not know. I do not have enough facts to form an opinion.

I agree with you on this whole heartedly

Well, that is not so sure for me. A lot of Personals ads, for example, would ask for certain age, certain ethicity, certain hair color, etc. Maybe a photo too. Does it make it "professional" then? If I want a personal tickling session, I probably would ask for a woman of a certain age, etc too. A photo is a good idea because I want her to havea face that is of my taste. Now, do I then "sound like a professional"? An amateur cannot ask for those things? A hourly compensation certainly is not indicative of being "professional". Does anyone expect that one is paid a monthly wage in this kind of things, professional or otherwise? And I think it is not misleading to describe this as a (part-time) job/gig. If you hire someone to massage you in a 1-hour session, isn't it a job? If one hires someone for a tickling session (to be videotaped or otherwise), why isn't it a job? Where is the misrepresentation? I don't see any. What is implied to you definitely is not implied to me.

Well I agree up to the point that you mention the videotape. If a person places an ad to film and no filming is actually done then it is misrepresentation. But if they film the shoot then there isn't any. After the shoot is done what the person does with the film is their choice I am sure there are a lot of "professional" producers have shot scenes they were not happy with and didn't turn out like they had hoped so they do not sell or even mention it happened... At that point were they misrepresenting themselves?

There is certainly dishonesty everywhere. I just want to ask people to be objective, critical, and reasonable. Twenty-something posts after the original post, I think I am probably the first one to question the existence of this so-called "misrepresentation". So many just jumped on this guy, who posted this Craiglist ad, apparently without really thinking this over objectively and critically. Is there really a reasonable ground to "out him"? This "phony producer" suddenly became a poster child for dangerous preverts. So many here lamented the dishonesty in this community. Well, all this "phony producer" thing seems to be merely based on a perception, of either the model or the original poster ZenTickling, that the ad "sound[ed] like a 'professional' tickling producer" in his/her opinion. No one has offered any convincing evidence whatsoever to support the claim that this guy "impersonating a tickling producer".

I agree

If you hire a massage therapist for a massage, it is a job. If you hooker to go down on you, it's a job. If you hire a model for a personal tickling session, it's not a job.

Ok You hire a model to be filmed in a session be it tickling or otherwise, it is a monetary transaction for services rendered. It is a job. Unless there is no filming it is a job and that is a shoot. Plain and simple. Your opinion on what you believe to be the correct way things should be done is influencing your objectiveness looking at the facts. You are paid to have your picture taken. The guy shows up with a camera and photographs you. You get paid... Job. Regardless of his sexual arousal, what are done with the photos afterwards, or how unprofessional he was. Unless during the photoshoot he whipped it out and spunked on your stomach, and that was not agreed on before the shoot started. It is a job plain and simple.

Exactly. Plus, doing fetish clips is WHAT SHE DOES being a model. It is not her job to come visit people at home to fulfill their desires!

Let's just say both are jobs, but it is not THE MODEL'S job! Does that make more sense?

Actually no it is her job to do just that and that is two fold... The first desire is the producer he is there to make money he wants to make money she is agreeing to this so that he can hopefully capture something on film that he can turn around resell and hopefully recoup not only his expenses but make some kind of a profit from it ergo making it worth doing in the first place. The second desire is fulfilled by the customer wanting to see this and willing to dish out the cash to see this captured on film. You are arguing semantics. You are saying that there is a difference between someone filming something for their own personal collection and someone wanting to make a dollar on it. There isn't. The only argument you have made is their professionalism.

There is a lot of amateur material around, but I would think once a producer has done a lot of stuff, he can do it without running around salivating and having a hard-on over it. And THAT is the main difference between a private session and a professional one.

Wrong! Guys, it IS a difference if you do a clip or a private session! Seriously, it is! The whole purpose is different and gives the whole thing a completely new dimension!

No I am disagreeing with you, If YOU hire a person to be tied down and tickled while it is being recorded, stipulate the parameters of said scene (clothing options restrictions on where areas to be tickled time table of scene and safewords), and film it. The arousal of the person filming or directing has no bearing on the definition of a shoot or a personal session.

A personal session is one in which two parties agree to perform certain actions for the sole purpose of personal gratification. Regardless of what the terms of the agreement are or compensation if any is transferred between two parties.

A professional shoot is one in which one party acquires the services of another with the purpose of transferring that to some form of media, that may or may not distributed to a mass market or another party as a commissioned work.

Yes! Just like you said before.. Why don't you guys try getting a model to come to your house so you can take nude pictures of her? Not gonna be easy. There is a difference between a professional project and some jerkoff with a cheap camera who just wants a naked woman in his house.

So if I rent a sound stage, Rent a couple of Panasonic AJ-HPX3700, aTram TR50 Lavalier Mic, Beringer MXB1002 6 input, an ARRI 1k Open and a 650 Fresnel. Then hired a model to shoot a scene I only intended on having it in my own collection? I would be a professional producer?

But, if I am a person of limited funds who has a run of the mill Sony Hi8, normal everyday house lighting, and I use the mic on the camera. Hire a model to do a photoshoot, and shoot a scene and not distribute it out for whatever reason I am a creep looking to have a naked woman in my house?

Really?

And by the time he has them he has probably done so much tickling that it doesn't do much for him anymore.

So by that rational guys in the vanilla porn industry who fuck women all the time on film it just doesn't do much for them anymore? They just aren't aroused by sex all that much. Seriously???? That is actually coming out of your mouth. I guess a married couple both into tickling who play every night at great lengths, just get to a point where it isn't fun anymore because it just doesn't do anything for them.

Loaded language.1

So, what makes a professional nude shoot "professional" and a personal video session "some jerkoff with a cheap camera who just wants a naked woman in his house"? Don't most "professionals" in the adult industry start off the way you're describing?

I'm confused as to how exactly your use of the word professional is anything other than a superficial construct (especially in this instance). Sure, its more of a business based transaction because clips are being sold to numerous people who are going to whack off to it but don't the "professional producers" also enjoy what they're doing? Aside from the label "professional", isn't the whole tickling production scene simply a bunch of personal video sessions being sold to the overall population in order to make a profit? If not, the producers must not have a thing for tickling or be completely asexual.

Anyway, this silly argument takes away from the whole issue. The issue wasn't to make individuals who want personal sessions sound dirty and perverted because they're not making a profit off of other people's sexuality. The issue was did the guy mislead the model into going to a personal shoot which she thought was going to be for a video company and produced for more than just one person?

Storm was the only person who was being reasonable about this whole issue and people flat out ignored his posts and just twisted the topic around to "people who shoot their personal sessions are just creeps with crappy camera equipment wanting naked chicks in their house".

Once again I agree

Professionalism makes it professional. Knowledge about lighting. About photography techniques. The fact that the whole thing is about a product, not the sexual gratification of the person involved.

Then there are not any true professional producers on the TMF. Because the majority of clips I have seen are not framed correctly, there is hardly any coverage of any kind, no regard to depth of focus, and most scenes are generally static 1 and 2 shots and hardly contain any follow or pull back tracking.

The issue is that in a clip shoot there might something be produced for a whole bunch of people to jack off over, but the producer himself most likely won't - which means the model doesn't have to deal with it directly!

I am fully aware that when I do a nude photoshooting people might see the pictures and get turned on by it, but it doesn't really matter to me as long as the photograpjer doesn't!

And the fact that trickery is used is the reason that our fetish is frowned upon so many times!

Enjoying it and getting all horny about it are two different things.

No problem if he has a model release! It's the model's decision if she wants to work with someone who doesn't know what he's doing. I still think she should have investigated further before even going there.

As I already said, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!! Because the model most likely doesn't want to be IN THE SAME ROOM with the guy jerking off!

I grouped a lot of your comments together because I can respond to them with one response

You are also making an assumption that this guy who hired the person had any intentions on jacking off during the filming. Which has not been said one was or another. It was implied by the tone of the starting post and people jumped on it like we were burning witches.

How circular. Who says in a personals session the person shooting doesn't know about lighting and can't control his urges until the production is finished?

Yes, I've been around adult film before. And YES there are a lot of latent sexual urges going on beneath the whole production. You have to concentrate on what you're doing if you're going to shoot appropriately. SAME as a guy wanting to shoot a personal video. After all, I'd assume no one would want the video coming out like shit.

Hold on. The producer has a thing for tickling, starts his company to explore his sexuality and make a product for people like him, BUT although he has a tickling fetish he can't actually enjoy his own work? AND you honestly think he doesn't either because he slaps on the label professional and puts you in an artificial environment which says its merely "business as usual"? lol. I'm not sure where you're getting this asexual medium from but its not realistic. The whole idea sounds pretty prudish as well.

Thank you thank you thank you

I would like to make sure everyone understands that we need to be very careful in our discussion NOT to get confused between a hypothesis and a fact. What LTSRLR said was _if_ the guy hired a model under the pretense, ... I want to remind everyone again that there has been absolutely NO convincing evidence that the Craiglist guy actually made any pretense or misrepresentation. There were many if_this_then_that things here, we need to understand that these are just if_this_then_that, not things that actually happened. We should not jump on anyone based on these if_this_then_that. Let's focus on facts.
I think a model is not limited to accepting a job related to professional session. I can post a night-shift security guard job looking for a day-time cop. What says a professional model cannot take a job working in personal session? And is the non-disclosure of it being a personal session of significant consequence? Is it not unreasonable for someone to believe that a model would be indifferent as to whether she is to be tickled and videotaped by a "professional" or an amateur? And how "professional" are these so-called "profesionals"? Have they reached a certain skill level and certified by the government? Would one really believe that they would be better off tickled by a "professional" rather than a "non-professional"?

Exactly....

It's just a risk that the model might not be willing to take! I mean, when a model knows it's going to a shoot with an established producer he/she will have a certain experience. That results in a feeling of trust and security which you wouldn't have if a private person does a session like that - maybe for the first time!

Especially when there's tricks like that involved, how much can you trust the person who is obviously a liar?

Assuming there was actually a video planned. I highly doubt that.

He sure can! But stuff you do regularly usually is not as exciting as something that you hardly get to do at all. It is a certain routine for a producer. It would be a whole different story with a private person!

Like with a professional photographer doing a nude shoot. I can never totally obviate that he will enjoy looking at my nude body, but he will have seen so many before that it is nothing unusual to him.

Just like going to the gynaecologist. I have no problem undressing in front of him, but I WOULD have a problem undressing in front of a person claiming to be a gynaecologist because he wants to see pussy!

oh please allow me to retort. First off you were not there. You have no idea exactly what happened and neither does Zen for that matter.

The only people who know what exactly happened and what was said were the model in question, the person hiring her and the escort. And it has already been established that she did not take it on her self to do even a superficial background check on the person before agreeing to go over there. She made the assumption that everyone on craigslist that puts in an ad for a ticklish model is going to carry themselves and handle the situation the same way Zen has. Which is naive at best utterly stupid at worst. But she has learned a lesson and didn't end up in a ditch somewhere as a statistic.

But saying there was a trick involved and that the person is obviously a liar, followed by your comment about the intentions that the video was never planned in the first place is reckless and irresponsible and probably the most irrational response you have made thus far.

And as far as your OBGYN comment... You are comparing apples to oranges. You are paying them for a service not the other way around... And you wouldn't pick well God I hope you wouldn't pick someone as important as an OBGYN out of the back of some newspaper ad or free ad service on the internet and I would hope you would at least check out the legitimacy of this person before showing up to his office.

Why are you being so dense? All the guy had to do was be honest and up front about the situation. The ad should have been posted in the personals section, not the jobs section.

Also, you can't just decided to sell a video a year later. If you don't have all the paperwork filled out (which he most likely wouldn't for a personal session) you would most definitely be sued at some point.

I already stated that I'm not outing anybody, just bringing up the issue.

I am aware that I produce a form of sexual material, and I'm not ashamed of it. Life's too short not to be true to yourself. However, I am never deceitful when it comes to contacting a model, and I go out of my way to make the experience as professional as possible. That's probably why nearly all of my models have returned for multiple shoots.

And in all honesty you don't know if he was or wasn't. You are assuming but you don't know the conversation that took place. And no where have you said she showed up he didn't have a camera didn't have anything just him in his house and wanted to tie her up and tickle her to backup your accusations one way or another.

But I would like to go out on a limb here and present a hypothesis:

This model sees the ad in craigslist. Responds to the ad, doesn't really go over the phone any real details about the nature of the shoot, what is involved, or the intention of the person who placed said ad on what would be done with the footage after the shoot. (I say this based on the fact she didn't ask for references or talk to anyone in the tickling community about this before she made her decision to agree to go over there so why would she bother to iron out details before hand either) Shows up, finds out that in fact he is hiring her for a private video that isn't going to be released to the public. She is uncomfortable by this and leaves. Calls Zen and tells him what happened. She isn't upset about this or anything as Zen stated before, but in his mind he makes the decision this guy is totally wrong for misrepresenting himself (which he didn't) and should be castrated drawn and quartered and their head be put on a stake as a warning to anyone else who should ever try to taint his noble profession of fetish film production.

He already has made his mind up about this person, and wouldn't dream of I don't know actually sending this guy a pm asking him about it before he fly's off the handle and over reacts. And finds out either:

A. No his accusation is not founded and realizes there was an error in his initial judgment. Decides to offer some advice from his vast amount of "professional" producing experience to help the guy out who was trying to break into the business or was only looking to create his own personal library the finer points of brokering the deal... Like make sure you are specific on the phone call before the model takes the time to drive out to your house and waste your time and hers.

Or..

B. His that his initial assessment of this situation was true.

So he makes this post his view already slanted and paints this guy as the Antichrist of Tickling video producers. And some people take it and run with it with even less facts then Zen has. So now this poor guy who initially placed the ad is totally ran through the mud and potentially discouraged from attempting to make videos and/or break into clip/film market and we have just lost a creative entity in our already narrow niche market of tickling fetish media.

Now my hypothesis could be totally wrong... I do not have all the facts. That limits the accuracy for me to formulate any kind of serious opinion on the matter. But I present it to show that it might be totally different then the mob with the fire and pitchforks believe.

And that you should probably try and get all the facts to a situation before you make a post of this nature. Although he was not outed in the post he most likely will be reading this. And it could take an honest misunderstanding and totally discourage and trash the feelings of a fellow forum member.

 

[Phineas]

Phineas, the sentence you quoted was about a prostitute, not about a model.

My bad.

By the way - those of you who are still arguing over the guy's innocence should consider two things.

1), The ad has already been pulled. If it wasn't legit, then what does he have to worry about? And

2), as I mentioned before (and Steve so helpfully drove home a few pages back), people in this community love to lie. There's definitely a general theme of "what no one knows won't hurt anyone" around here, and if you disagree I can hand you a dozen threads where people argue exactly that.

So, given those two bits of fact, which is the more likely scenario - that a model who knows enough about the industry to have an escort accompany her to shoots was too dumb to research a producer before taking the job, and ZenTickling is an irrational Inquisitor who loves to 'out' his fellow community members... OR, that the guy who posted the ad was a creeper who was trying to trick a pretty girl into letting him tickle her.

Occam's Razor. The second scenario is the far more likely of the two. Whether or not you agree that this guy needed to be outed, you really can't defend him for being a poor innocent victim of circumstance. Not by a long shot. Not with how common the second scenario is in this community. If it was an innocent mistake, then it'd be the first I'll have ever heard of - and I've been here for nearly a decade.

 

[solescratcher99]

Arrggh!!

<a href="http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r78/solescratcher2008/?action=view&current=pitchfork.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r78/solescratcher2008/pitchfork.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Occam's razor also states

The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible

In this case, occam's razor would state this is simply a misunderstanding between two parties and nothing more. It wouldn't state this guy was a creep with malicious intentions, working on his plot to take advantage of models in a specific sex industry. The latter is riddled with numerous assumptions, paranoia and projected fears/hatred of sexuality. Quite the opposite of Occam's razor.

You could also make the argument that, hermeneutically, as things become more simple the more assumptions there will be. But that's totally off topic.

 

[Phineas]

In this case, occam's razor would state this is simply a misunderstanding between two parties and nothing more. It wouldn't state this guy was a creep with malicious intentions, working on his plot to take advantage of models in a specific sex industry.

Except that every time this situation has come up in the past, that's exactly what it's been. If it quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Chrysler.

The latter is riddled with numerous assumptions, paranoia and projected fears/hatred of sexuality.

Is it possible for you to contribute to a discussion without insinuating everyone also contributing has some kind of internal hatred goin' on? It's a definite theme with you.