more powerful, Mace windu or Yoda?

[Cosmo_ac]

after watching star wars III i have to wonder whose more powerful, Mace Windu or Yoda.

 

[AphxA]

Yoda by far. His size is no handycap. His force concentration and his skills with a light saber make him a true jedi master.

 

[jk666uk]

Yoda by far. His size is no handycap. His force concentration and his skills with a light saber make him a true jedi master.

what he said
may the force be with you

 

[Krokus]

I'm gonna say mace windu, just cause I like him better.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I think we can truely decide this based on how they fare against Darth Sidious. Palpatine was stronger than Windu and a better swordsman, and for reasons that will always remain controversial he (Palpatine) lost the duel at the exact moment Anakin entered the room.

Up until that moment however, Palpatine was clearly in control and had all the momentum Force and duel-wise.

With Yoda however, we see Emperor Palpatine attempt to run, because he knows that while he is a match for Yoda there is a much larger chance that he will die than he would if it was Windu he was fighting. And if he dies, then his whole life's work falls apart. He acted on instinct and preservation rather than cowardess.

"If so powerful you are, why leave?"- Master Yoda 😀

When challenged, Sidious puts up a good fight but Yoda is on equal ground with him. Neither can gain a distinct advantage over the other. This, in my opinion, contrasts quite differently with the pace of the Windu/Palpatine duel. This fight is more fast paced and more Force-driven than the prior duel also.

Dispite the major shift in the Force in the Dark Lord's favor, none of these factors seem to make any difference on Yoda.

If it were Windu, he would have died much quicker. And if Sidious hadn't shot the saber from Yoda's hand, its possible he may have eventually overcome him had it simply not been for destiny.

So Force-wise and saber skills wise, Master Yoda is more powerful than Master Windu. Darth Sidious however is definitely superior to Windu and easily on par with Yoda.

I know this thread isn't about Palpatine, but I think to use him as a means to evaluate the ability of the two Jedi is sound. Especially considering that Palpatine is the strongest opponent either of these or any Jedi would face and he would be the person who could test their abilties to the highest degree possible.

With the Mace/Palpatine duel, if you were to have them duel several times in a "best of series", I think that Windu would win 10% of the time, and have a 25% chance of winning.

With the Yoda/Sidious duel, if you were to have them duel several times, I think Yoda would win 50% of the time, and have a 65% chance of winning. 70% if the conditions were completely ideal.

Alternatively, against Windu I see Palpatine winning 90% of the time, with a 80% chance of winning. If it's a combo duel (meaning both Force and saber fighting) then Palpatine's chance of winning would be 90%.

Against Yoda, I see Palpatine winning 65% of the time (I give him an extra 15% more than Yoda to represent the dark side's powers).

His chances of winning would be 65% (Palpatine may be able to dish it out but Yoda can block or absorb alot of it, so I give him the same percentage.)

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Just for the fun of it:

Obi-Wan Kenobi would win 5-8% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 5-9% chance of winning.

Anakin Skywalker would win 3-7% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 8-10% chance of winning.

Darth Vader (before the suit) would win 6-9% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 9-15% chance of winning.

Darth Vader (in the suit) would win 1-4% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 5-10% chance of winning.

If any of these duels involved using the Force, all of their chances would be 2% at best. Darth Vader (in the suit) would be in the decimals, considering his handicaps and metal components.

 

[barefoot_m_uk]

And it seemed like such a simple question ...



I reckon yoda. I have no percentages to back that up, just haven't heard Wierd Al do any Mace Windu parodies.

Pound for pound, Yoda's got to be tops hasn't he?

 

[MrPartickler]

Just for the fun of it:

Obi-Wan Kenobi would win 5-8% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 5-9% chance of winning.

Anakin Skywalker would win 3-7% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 8-10% chance of winning.

Darth Vader (before the suit) would win 6-9% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 9-15% chance of winning.

Darth Vader (in the suit) would win 1-4% of his duels with Palpatine, with a 5-10% chance of winning.

If any of these duels involved using the Force, all of their chances would be 2% at best. Darth Vader (in the suit) would be in the decimals, considering his handicaps and metal components.

Emperor, dude, your numbers are creating a disturbance in the geek side over here! lol

I don't know anything about the topic, but how are you computing these stats? The chance of winning has to be connected to the number of wins acheived. In fact, the chance of winning would normally be determined <i>from</i> the number of actual wins achieved over a (preferrably large) number of actual (random) trials.

::whew:: I feel better now. Carry on. 🙂

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I am not a star wars geek, I'm just very articulate and like evaluating things even if they are unnecessary sometimes. The duels of Star Wars are my favorite part, so its only natural that like Dave I'd take a closer look at them.

These stats aren't generated from anything. They are merely my guesses based on Force strength, ability to manipulate the Force, and one's sword mastery. They are also based on how I saw them perform in the movie.

As for what you are saying, I understand that. If you pit these individuals against eachother more than just one the time we saw in the movie, there would be different results some of the time.

For example, Darth Vader would win less times against Obi-Wan because he's not as focused, he gets a bit reckless, he get's cocky, and often performs alot of unnecessary maneuvers and leaves himself open for attack.

His potential to win those duels that he does win are much higher though, because of his raw strength.

Basically, the potential for one of these characters to win may be higher than if they actually do win.

I think that makes fair sense.

For example, just because Mace Windu has the power to kill Palpatine (about a 25% chance of that actually happening), it doesn't mean its going to happen. And because that number is only 25%, a quarter of a hundred, it makes sense that he would only be victorious some 10% of the time.

This is assuming of course that you are not attempting to kill your opponent, merely best them. This would be either through exhaustion, disarming them, etc.

If these stats were based completely on the reality of going for the kill (the way most of the duels were in the movie) then they may be completely different. If it was that way, it would be more like:

Palpatine has a 85% chance of killing Windu
Windu has a 35% chance of killing Palpatine
Yoda has a 70% chance of killing Palpatine
Palpatine has a 75% chance of killing Yoda

I didn't put too much thought into this before I posted it, though.

EDIT:

Also, against eachother, I think Yoda has about a 87% chance of winning, with Windu having the remaining 13%.

 

[amk714]

Since I'm not a Star Wars fan, I'll ask what might seem like a stupid question: if Darth Vader (with his suit on) is, for the most part, no match for Palpatine, then how was he able to defeat him in Episode VI? I know that Palpatine may have been weakened after dueling with Luke Skywalker, but if he's so strong, I'd think that Darth wouldn't have been able to lift him up and throw him to his death. Did the Force help Darth out, or did his love for his son overcome the disparity in strength? 😛

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Since I'm not a Star Wars fan, I'll ask what might seem like a stupid question: if Darth Vader (with his suit on) is, for the most part, no match for Palpatine, then how was he able to defeat him in Episode VI? I know that Palpatine may have been weakened after dueling with Luke Skywalker, but if he's so strong, I'd think that Darth wouldn't have been able to lift him up and throw him to his death. Did the Force help Darth out, or did his love for his son overcome the disparity in strength? 😛

Well, first of all, Darth Vader did not destroy Emperor Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker did. Anakin Skywalker, who is ultimately stronger than Darth Vader, seized the moment to snatch up his Master unawares and throw him down that reactor shaft.

It's a spritual victory for Anakin, rather than a physical one.

Secondtly, there was no "duel" between Luke and Palpatine (unless of course you're talking about the unseen spiritual battle of wills going on). If there had been Palpatine would have won. Assuming of course this was a lightsaber duel. Palpatine was not any "weaker" after shooting Luke with the lightning. Theres plenty more where that came from. So it was the distraction of Palpatine's hatred for Luke that allows Anakin to seize the moment.

Thirdly, to answer your questions, yes and yes. As I said, it was Anakin Skywalker who vanquished Lord Vader and Lord Sidious. When Anakin returned out of compassion for his son, the Force was set right and he was given what he needed to overthrow (figurtively and literally) Emperor Palpatine. 🙂

 

[amk714]

I see. Thank you, Celtic Emperor. Wise you are. 😀

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I see. Thank you, Celtic Emperor. Wise you are. 😀

Not really. I just pay general attention. LOL!

 

[MrMacphisto]

Probably Yoda.... Although at his prime, the Emperor was the most powerful force wielder.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Nerd alert! NEEEERRRRDDDDD!!!!

 

[Dave2112]

Ok, I wasn't going to post here since it turned into a gaming-stats fest, but I have to say something...

...you do realize that all those percentages mean nothing? Guys, the fights followed a storyline...there is 100% chance that they're going to turn out the way they turned out, because that's the way they were written! There is exactly a 0% chance of Palpatine beating Obi-Wan because it never happened, and wasn't supposed to happen. It was never an option....

I mean..."if Yoda held on to his lightsaber..." and stuff like that. These films are telling you what happened. Yeah, a million things could have happened, but they didn't. That's why you tell a story. Anybody could beat anybody in a fight, but this is how they went down. So, there's a 0% chance of anything happening differently because it already happened a certain way. I mean, if you going to use probability mechanics, at least understand them in a linear sense. 😀

Sheesh, guys...this is what makes people compare us to the Trekkies.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Ok, I wasn't going to post here since it turned into a gaming-stats fest, but I have to say something...

...you do realize that all those percentages mean nothing? Guys, the fights followed a storyline...there is 100% chance that they're going to turn out the way they turned out, because that's the way they were written! There is exactly a 0% chance of Palpatine beating Obi-Wan because it never happened, and wasn't supposed to happen. It was never an option....

I mean..."if Yoda held on to his lightsaber..." and stuff like that. These films are telling you what happened. Yeah, a million things could have happened, but they didn't. That's why you tell a story. Anybody could beat anybody in a fight, but this is how they went down. So, there's a 0% chance of anything happening differently because it already happened a certain way. I mean, if you going to use probability mechanics, at least understand them in a linear sense. 😀

Sheesh, guys...this is what makes people compare us to the Trekkies.

You seem to be peeved by something thats just honest curiousity. I do realize they are meaningless and I am not saying that it should have happened or that the way it happened wasn't good or all we needed to see it a different way, or that I don't respect the story for what it is (in fact, I wouldn't have had it any other way). And of course its not something thats meant to happen or taken seriously. But I wouldn't be the first who wondered the "what ifs" or "could haves" of anything. Movies, stories, music, personal fantasies, whatever. Everyone does it at some point and time. There are 0% chances of them happening alot of the time, yet that doesn't stop people from thinking outloud.

This is no different.

So I'm thinking outloud. Sue me. It doesn't make me some nerd, or even comparable to one. This is a huge reason why alot of folks don't talk like this, because their choice of words will be mistaken for those a helpless fan whose in too deep that it's sad.

Sorry for the mini-rant, but it needed to be said. 😛

 

[Dave2112]

I wasn't peeved at all.

Sense...of....humor, dude. Relax.

Ok, stats aside, I'll indulge the original topic and touch upon the other.

I don't think it's really a question of who's more powerful. There's raw power, and there's applied power. You have to understand that the Force is so much more than a power meter, and being a Jedi is a world beyond martial training. The Force flows through and is directed by the emotions and intentions. Regardless of raw power, the proper motivation and/or circumstance can give any Force-user an advantage over any other. It's all in the application. Then, there is also the more mystical aspect of the Force...it's Will. As was learned during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion of "The New Jedi Order", there is a "natural strive for Balance" in the Force that, in a cosmic way, borders on sentience. Call it Fate, Destiny or chance...the Force often subtly moves things in a certain direction.

Luke defeated Vader. Now, most argue that Luke is therefore more powerful.
In raw power, no. Remember, we're not talking about Luke Skywalker, Future Savior of the Jedi here. On Death Star II, he still had almost zilch official training or experience, but a world of potential and latent ability. Luke was still working on levitating fighters out of swamps and Vader was tearing apart control rooms and chucking around two-ton chunks of metal with his mind. Without breaking a sweat. So, raw power goes to Vader.

It was Luke's applied power that gave him the edge. Not to mention a brief testing brush with the Dark Side, but that's another topic. Luke had motivation to win, he had desire, he had a reason. Everything hinged on him. He had everything to lose. Vader had little to lose in a fight that he wasn't even 100% vested in.

So, you really have to understand the nature of the Force and of Jedi in general before comparisons really have meaning.

And that's my 2 credits worth of personal geekdom.

 

[Redmage]

I tend to side with the Yoda camp. But here's what I REALLY want to know.

OK, we have Darth Sidious, aka Arch-Chancellor Palpatine, right? This is a fellow who had daily or near-daily contact with the Jedi Council (arguably the most powerful Jedi alive) for, what, 20 years? And not one of those uber-Jedi ever sensed who or what they were dealing with. What sort of power would that take???

OK, that's unlikely enough, but let's take it as written. Now, fast-forward another 20 years or so. This same fellow who outwitted and outfought the entire Jedi Order - including all of its most powerful members - is outmaneuvered, defeated, and killed through the agency of one half-trained farmboy.

Um, say what?

I know, Dave2112, it happened because the storyline said so. What I want to know is how in the name of all that's reasonable we're supposed to buy a storyline that farfetched.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I wasn't peeved at all.

Sense...of....humor, dude. Relax.

Ok, stats aside, I'll indulge the original topic and touch upon the other.

I don't think it's really a question of who's more powerful. There's raw power, and there's applied power. You have to understand that the Force is so much more than a power meter, and being a Jedi is a world beyond martial training. The Force flows through and is directed by the emotions and intentions. Regardless of raw power, the proper motivation and/or circumstance can give any Force-user an advantage over any other. It's all in the application. Then, there is also the more mystical aspect of the Force...it's Will. As was learned during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion of "The New Jedi Order", there is a "natural strive for Balance" in the Force that, in a cosmic way, borders on sentience. Call it Fate, Destiny or chance...the Force often subtly moves things in a certain direction.

Luke defeated Vader. Now, most argue that Luke is therefore more powerful.
In raw power, no. Remember, we're not talking about Luke Skywalker, Future Savior of the Jedi here. On Death Star II, he still had almost zilch official training or experience, but a world of potential and latent ability. Luke was still working on levitating fighters out of swamps and Vader was tearing apart control rooms and chucking around two-ton chunks of metal with his mind. Without breaking a sweat. So, raw power goes to Vader.

It was Luke's applied power that gave him the edge. Not to mention a brief testing brush with the Dark Side, but that's another topic. Luke had motivation to win, he had desire, he had a reason. Everything hinged on him. He had everything to lose. Vader had little to lose in a fight that he wasn't even 100% vested in.

So, you really have to understand the nature of the Force and of Jedi in general before comparisons really have meaning.

And that's my 2 credits worth of personal geekdom.

You're not saying anything I don't already know, but it's good to hear it again, regardless. 🙂

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I tend to side with the Yoda camp. But here's what I REALLY want to know.

OK, we have Darth Sidious, aka Arch-Chancellor Palpatine, right? This is a fellow who had daily or near-daily contact with the Jedi Council (arguably the most powerful Jedi alive) for, what, 20 years? And not one of those uber-Jedi ever sensed who or what they were dealing with. What sort of power would that take???

OK, that's unlikely enough, but let's take it as written. Now, fast-forward another 20 years or so. This same fellow who outwitted and outfought the entire Jedi Order - including all of its most powerful members - is outmaneuvered, defeated, and killed through the agency of one half-trained farmboy.

Um, say what?

I know, Dave2112, it happened because the storyline said so. What I want to know is how in the name of all that's reasonable we're supposed to buy a storyline that farfetched.

I hope I'm not stealing Dave's thunder by answering this question. And if he can answer it better than I can, I would highly encourage it. 🙂


The Force was out of balance. It could be argued that the Force itself masked Palpatine's presense from the Jedi Order, in addition to Palpatine's Sith ways.

This idea has merit, considering that Palpatine fails to detect the return of the jedi at first, and by the time of the events of Return of the Jedi, the Force was ready to make a shift back to neutrality, making his ability to forsee harder. And, in my opinion, when the Force is in a neutral state, it is in balance. This is what the Jedi want and what the Sith ultimately hate and fear.

All things negative and evil, such as wars, political propoganda, and Coruscant's metal covered surface (the absense of nature and life) and seedy underbelly help contribute to the clouding nature of the dark side, especially on this particular planet which just so happens to be the planet the Jedi Order is stationed and where all the big decisions for the galaxy are made. In a time where discernment on the part of the Jedi is most necessary, it cannot be applied because the Force is in the process of shifting into severe imbalance.

"The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor."

Mace Windu said that (albeit far too late), and even then, he could only sense that the dark side was around Palpatine, but that it was not in him or apart of him. It was a part of his actions, his proclamations, his pursual of the war, etc. These feelings could have been sensed or attributed to anyone in that kind of a position. But when the war was winding down the dark side was still stronger than ever, and growing stronger. Something was wrong, and they knew it, but they still could not identify the source.

In a deleted scene, Obi-Wan says to Yoda and Mace "theres been a major shift in the Force, we've all felt it."

In typical, classy movie fashion, the true enemy is not revealed until absolutely necessary though his works and evil deeds are felt throughout the movie (in this case, through the whole saga). It builds suspense and forwards the momentum which brought the audiance to this point. We have to remember that, even though we know who Palpatine really is, no one else does yet.

Palpatine would not be a credible Dark Lord of the Sith if when called upon to do so he could not kill several jedi at a time. His legitimacy as the true/ultimate evil is tied up in his ability to seduce, beguile, and twist things how he wants them, as he is more the puppet master than the fighter. But he has proven on many levels that he can talk the talk and walk the walk.

He simply is that powerful. There really is no need to explain it really, but one could I suppose. The Dark Side gave him what he needed during those fights to get the job done. Because the Force was now with him and not the master jedi he fought, not even with Master Yoda himself, victory was assured through his passion to see it through.

He also had the advantage of forcing his enemies to come to him without them having any knowledge of what he was truely capable of.

 

[Redmage]

Um, Emperor, all that seems to add up to "because it had to happen for the story to turn out the right way." The "unbalance in the force" thing doesn't really make a lot of sense. At least, not to produce such a massive effect. And in any case that really just adds up to "it was fate," which is a very unsatisfying explanation for major plot events.

If I'm to wax all geeky here, I'd note that both Obi-Wan and Qui-gon were capable of sensing Darth Maul even when they were nowhere near him. Now granted, Maul was not Sidious, but even so for Sidious to hide his true nature for decades while coming within touching distance of the most powerful Jedi alive indicates incredible power if we're to take it at face value. Yes, Sidious could kill several Jedi at a time. But when it came right down to it the man who fought Yoda to a standstill couldn't kill a boy with less training than any Padawan would have.

That's where the story breaks, for me.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I understand. Perhaps Lucas created a character so powerful on paper than on the screen the character could never possibly live up to the written character.

Because most of what Sidious learns and how he grows in strength is very subtle, it's hard to gauge, outwardly, just how powerful he is.

One could assume that his greatest power is the ability to forsee. And it's because of that that he was able to plan the downfall of the Jedi decades in advance. While he could not control fine details, he could create situtions where his desired effect would transpire, and in almost every case it did because of his ability to forsee what would work and what would not.

He took advantage of a weakened government and the rest sort of fell into place. He created a threat, thus forcing this government to defend itself, all the while keeping his ultimate goal in check, and then, finally, taking absolute control and at the same time utterly destroying his hated enemy.

It does seem a bit much that any single man could accomplish all of this, but he did. Thats the way the story has been told.

And if you're refering to Luke, he would have killed him. Anakin had other plans, though.

 

[german]

come on it has to be Mace, he was getting the job done until the young punk showed up.

 

[Redmage]

One could assume that his greatest power is the ability to forsee. And it's because of that that he was able to plan the downfall of the Jedi decades in advance. While he could not control fine details, he could create situtions where his desired effect would transpire, and in almost every case it did because of his ability to forsee what would work and what would not.

*snip*

And if you're refering to Luke, he would have killed him. Anakin had other plans, though.

Yep, I'm referring to Luke. But Vader/Anakin's interference goes toward my point, not against it.

Sidious's foreknowledge of the defeat of the Rebel Alliance (explicitly stated at the end of Return of the Jedi) was wrong. If that's his greatest power then it deserted him at the most critical junction possible. And Luke beat him also on what should have been Sidious's strongest ground: the subversion of others' wills and minds. Sidious had Anakin for more than 20 years. Luke turned him back in a matter of hours. Sidious made his position by maneuvering others into their own defeat. Luke outmaneuvered him.

Basically Luke did almost everything that Sidious had done to win his Throne, only Luke did them all better. And this with barely a scant handful of years of experience in the Force, with mere months under any actual tutelage.

It happened because that's how Lucas wanted it to happen. But stories are supposed to have better internal justifications than mere author whim.