more powerful, Mace windu or Yoda?

[Celtic_Emperor]

I agree. It should be more than a whim or plot device.

Anakin was never really dead however, and Luke knew he could never defeat the emperor. He went on a suicide mission to save his father and he happened to succeed. But it could have gone any other number of ways too. But like you say, thats the way it was written. It has to be for there to be any climax or resolution. Its just the way movies and stories work. You'll never see the bad guy win completely. He may get the upperhand, but he never actually wins in the end.

 

[nenezinho]

To answer directly to the original topic, I would say Yoda and this simply because:
- many more years of training
- much more experience
- from the above: a greater knowledge of the force

Yoda was in a position that he only used what powers were needed in a given circunstance. Windu was still learning and wanting to show of as we see in Geonosis and against the emperor.

Windu made his greatest mistake when he was able to foresee the threat Anakin could be, but then, on the moment of true, he simply forgot that the same threat was right there staring at him in confusion.

Another terrible mistake on Windu´s part was to think he could handle the sith lord by himself and without further interference from the Jedi Counsil. I believe that such an important matter should have been comunicated to the council and so all Jedi´s could have been warned of the danger....but Windu was unable to forsee the danger. Yoda had warned that if the Jedi needed to throw Palpatine out of power, that they would be in a very dangerous ground.

Now that I´ve been so hard on Windu 😀

Lets see the final defeat of the emperor by the Skywalkers. Here I have no doubt that the true factor was not the force but another one that is so or even more powerful: Love!
The ultimate victory in star wars is the victory of a son´s love for his father, no matter how bad that father seemed to be, the son´s will to sacrifice himself for his friends, for his father and for his sister. And this is what the emperor could not foreseen. Remember that he did knew that Luke was a threat to him, he did knew that he could die at the hands of a Skywalker, even Vader was aware of the fears Palpatine had. But pretty much has Anakin was unable to see that his fear would lead him to his destiny, also Palpatine could not see exactly how everything will happen and ended up setting the exact situation he wanted to prevent.

I hope you can enjoy even more the movies when realizing that the story is better made than it seems. Maybe the new movies were not brilliant but the story behind is good.

Palpatine was afraid of the Skywalkers! He foresaw that one of them would eventually kill him. This is a fact spoken by Vader in ESB and I believe Vader was telling the truth. Also in ESB Palpatine was clearly unsure if Luke could be turned to the dark side in a safe way. In ROTJ Palpatine was again afraid, and now he was even afraid of Vader also! Remember him asking Vader if his feelings were clear. And then remember that all the events on Death Star II were so close and depended greatly on chance. Even for a Sith Lord it would be hard to foresee exactly what would be the outcome. Maybe he saw that both the Skywalkers and him could die there and decided to go for it and call the game, maybe he wanted a show down and end with his fears once and for all....who knows. After all....he had defeated so many oponents by then that he must have believed he could carry anything.

and by now everyone´s sleeping 😛 And yes! I love star wars 😀

 

[Dave2112]

Well, Celtic's pretty much summed up anything I would have said, and I'm pretty much in agreement. There is a bit of "that's the way the story goes" to it, because it's just the way it is, no one can change that. But most of the rest is more or less what Celtic has described.

I will say one thing about the topic of forseeing the future, though. Be careful what you interpret from these references. They're purposely ambiguous. However, when talking about Palpatines failure to forsee Luke, etc...remember that even to the most powerful of Force-users, it is a tricky undertaking. Yoda reminds Anakin of this very concept in ROTS. The irony of Anakin's visions were part of the entire point of Episode III. Anakin does see the future, and he sees it correctly. But, he does not know he's seeing what will happen because of what he does to try and change it. Padme dies because of what he becomes in trying to prevent a vision he misinterpreted in the first place. It's part of the tragedy of Darth Vader and an important, but subtle, plot point.

No Jedi or Sith is above that. "Always in motion is the Future". It takes not ony the raw talent to be able to see into the future, but the wisdom to see it in its whole context. This is where knowledge of the Will of the Force is vital. The future revolves around the universe, not just the individual scryer. Palpatine, as a self-centered megelomaniac, would be just as prone to misinterpretations of the future as young Anakin.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

It also makes him more human, despite his vast power. Defeating him is not impossible. Perhaps it was written that Windu overpowered him to demonstrate that fact. Should he have won? Yes. Could he have won? Yes. Would he have won? Yes, I think so.

But for reasons that will always remain controversial among fans, he lost. We all saw the same thing on the screen, but many have different viewpoints as to why it happened that way other than just chalking it up to plot devices.

This duel is the most critical (the Windu/Palpatine duel) even if it's not the most popular. Not only does this event change Anakin, but it creates the evil events that follow, such as the purging of the Jedi, the murdering of the younglings, etc.

If Palpatine had been killed, a stop might have been put to everything. Because we know he's not going to die however and these horrible things have to happen somehow, the only way to make it work is to allow Palpatine to either win completely and undeniably, or to create a controversial situation where Windu wins.

I realize it happened the way it did so the story would work, but one will always wonder who was the better man because of that event, Windu or Palpatine. I don't think that one instance, that one duel is the be all end. Although because thats the way the story was told, we have to accept it as such. And because Lucas left this ambiguous (he didn't even answer it on the dvds), we may never know.

All he says in a scene prior is "Palpatine sets this up" and then later "Windu overpowers him". Thats pretty ambiguous and supports both the characters.

Overpowers him under his own power, or because Palpatine let him win?

Either way, the end result is the same. So I guess it really doesn't matter. But it sure would matter to Palpatine and Windu fans to know George's thoughts on this.

This is one of those instances, where, to a fan, it's not enough that it's just the way it was written even though we have to settle for that.

 

[Moses25]

Yoda vs. Mace...

Yoda. Hands down no questions asked.

(fight scene)

Mace: "I'm gonna put a cap in yo ass, ya green muthafucka!!"

Yoda: "Hmm, black is your heart as well as your skin, Shaft Windu."

Mace: "Don't be trying no jive turkey talk on me, muthafucka. I's be the son of Dolemite!"

Yoda: "Hmmm, proud and powerful leader your father was. Shame him, you do, with ghetto speech during last episode of Star Wars."

Mace: "Take this, Kermit!!"

(Yoda blocks onslaught and retaliates)

Yoda: "Hmmm, painful it must be, after slicing off your genitals and hit you with them I do."

(Mace falls down dead)

(end scene)

Cheers.

 

[german]

Sorry just had to bring this up again, just watched ep.II and then ep.III. At the start of ep.II Obi-Wan said something along the line of "Anakin you already think you are as wise as Master Yoda and as POWERFUL as Master Windu. Theres one point.

Then in ep.III Windu had already made the emperor lose his light sabre and had the emperor on knees pretty much sucking his light sabres tip long before Anakin had showed up and in my opinion had the emperor beat which Yoda could not.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I hate to correct you German, but Obi-Wan did not say that to Anakin. Anakin said that to Padme about Obi-Wan.

Anakin was talking to Padme saying how he appriciates Obi-Wan's training.

"He's as strong as Master Windu, and as wise as Master Yoda. I truely am grateful for him."- Anakin Skywalker

Also, I believe Anakin didn't mean this literally. He's just proud of Obi-Wan even if he is jealous. He realizes how fortunate he is to have such a venerable, strong, and wise Jedi teaching him. Similarly, Obi-Wan admits to Anakin (in episode III) that he is wiser than he is and that "you are a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be." Again, he's proud of Anakin, extremely proud, but there is that part of him that is wary of Anakin (and rightfully so).

This trend of Master complimenting his Apprentice or vice-versa is ongoing throughout the saga.

Qui-Gon Jinn said pratically the same thing to Obi-Wan in episode I.

"You have been a great apprentice, Obi-Wan, and you're a much wiser man than I am. I forsee you will become a great Jedi Knight."- Qui-Gon Jinn

"No more training do you require, already know you."- Yoda (after he has trained Luke)