Parents using dog to "discipline" kids

[ShadowTklr]

Re: Rebuttal

A measure like this will cause a strong decline in criminally-prone individuals, those in the poverty line will be able to consolidate more money, and the disposable workforce will be a thing of the past because the number of people competing for jobs and space will decline and the employee will become valuable again.

AND it will save on some poor sonofabitch from being born into a cruel world by even crueller parents only to end up in a cruel concrete rape colony.

Now, how could you POSSIBLY see this as a bad thing?

Every time someone makes a Gestapo-esque suggestion like this, even with the best of intentions, it appears they always do so without an understanding of the infrastructure necessary to make it possible. And I'm sure this is no exception.

In order to bring about the utopia in which you describe, where the poor, homeless, psychologically questionable, and anyone else who is deemed unfit are corralled together for a “pre-emptive” sterilization party, you would have to do the following, in no particular order.

1. First, burn the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. Individualism is dead. It is deemed responsible for the problems of society and is outlawed.
2. Remove the Government, and turn it into a large, single-minded entity. We’ll call it “The Collective.” This new oversight body will be responsible for enforcing all new laws that are created by itself without consideration for individual thought, ideas, or movement.
3. Eliminate any media that promotes or suggests individual thought, and replace it with mandatory indoctrination programs whereby everyone must register. This means all music, TV, movies, books, magazines and advertising – everything must be created, controlled and disseminated by the Collective. Possession of any material not pre-approved by the Collective will be confiscated, and offending parties jailed.
4. All citizens must submit for tracking device implantation so they may be identified and located at a moment’s notice.
5. Mandatory psych evaluations for all citizens. The results of these evaluations, while initially intended to screen for parenthood compatibility, will now be used to determine social status as well. All citizens will be categorized by the results of their psych evaluation in order to ensure that their efforts are put to good use in the interest of an efficient society. They will be supplied with housing befitting their social status, and monitored for any signs of dissention. Individuals accused of not behaving within the parameters of their assigned social status and psychological profiles, will be jailed.

I could go on for the length of a novel, but the bottom line is that when you start espousing the forced subjugation of people for the purpose of ONE so-called greater good, you open the Pandora’s box of subjugation for ALL things.

 

[kis123]

Amnesiac,

You post an eloquent case for sterilization, and surprisingly, there are some points where I actually agree. Here's an example off the issue we're posting about;

I went to my son's open house last year and there was a girl there with a baby, about 17 years old. The baby looked okay, but you could clearly tell mom had some form of a learning disability. Now her mother takes of her and a baby some maggot impregnated her with and walked away after he got his "funky" off at her expense. Why hadn't anyone talked to her about birth control? Why wasn't she sterilized in advance? Her "rights" as a mentally retarded citizen would've been violated. How about that? It's okay for her to populate the planet with kids she is incapable mentally of raising by herself, and it's okay for us to pay for it and hope for the best. As a parent of an autistic, mentally and emotionally handicapped child, I'm all for sterilization within certain parameters.

You see, if you think we're having problems with teen pregnancy, think about how many more we're having with mentally challenged kids that have become sexually active. My son is a wonderful kid, but he has no reasoning genes at all!! If you add sex to the mix, you have a disaster waiting to happen. Then I get to become the mother and grandmother at the same time. The county told me that he has rights and I can not have him sterilized. How the heck about that? Everyone has rights but me, huh?

Even though you give a relatively good argument for sterilization, and even though I agree with you within certain parameters, I'm forced to ask myself some questions:

Who determines who gets sterilized? What if the assumptions and genetics are wrong? Who chooses the criteria? What if we sterilize the wrong ones and let the so-called right ones birth future societal derilects? I don't want to be the one to make those life altering decisions. That's too close to the "Playing God" vest for my comfort level.

My mother lived her entire life with untreated depression. She was no June Cleaver to live with. We suffered a lot during our childhood because she was ill-equipped to handle what life threw at her. Even with all the odds stacked against her, she raised six children and three grandchildren who are pretty decent people and are productive members of society. What if someone told her she didn't have the right profile to raise children and she got sterilized in advance? Wouldn't have been good for me or my sisters.

Sorry for the length of the post folks. Couldn't think of the Reader's Digest version!

 

[ShadowTklr]

I went to my son's open house last year and there was a girl there with a baby, about 17 years old. The baby looked okay, but you could clearly tell mom had some form of a learning disability. Now her mother takes of her and a baby some maggot impregnated her with and walked away after he got his "funky" off at her expense. Why hadn't anyone talked to her about birth control? Why wasn't she sterilized in advance? Her "rights" as a mentally retarded citizen would've been violated. How about that? It's okay for her to populate the planet with kids she is incapable mentally of raising by herself, and it's okay for us to pay for it and hope for the best. As a parent of an autistic, mentally and emotionally handicapped child, I'm all for sterilization within certain parameters.

I want to know who is passing around the psychotropic drugs that you people are ingesting. So, when you put the word "rights" in quotation marks, is that supposed to degrade its importance to the level of a perception and not an actuality? If only we could stop these goddamn retards from multiplying, eh Kis?

You see, if you think we're having problems with teen pregnancy, think about how many more we're having with mentally challenged kids that have become sexually active. My son is a wonderful kid, but he has no reasoning genes at all!! If you add sex to the mix, you have a disaster waiting to happen. Then I get to become the mother and grandmother at the same time. The county told me that he has rights and I can not have him sterilized. How the heck about that? Everyone has rights but me, huh?

Yeah, what a shit deal for you, not being able to have your own son sterilized. Damn this lousy country and its "everyone has rights" bullshit. Are you suggesting that you actualy inquired about having your son sterilized?

Even though you give a relatively good argument for sterilization, and even though I agree with you within certain parameters, I'm forced to ask myself some questions:

Who determines who gets sterilized? What if the assumptions and genetics are wrong? Who chooses the criteria? What if we sterilize the wrong ones and let the so-called right ones birth future societal derilects? I don't want to be the one to make those life altering decisions. That's too close to the "Playing God" vest for my comfort level.

Obviously, if you inquired to the county about having your son sterilized, then "playing God" is exactly what you wish to accomplish.

My mother lived her entire life with untreated depression. She was no June Cleaver to live with. We suffered a lot during our childhood because she was ill-equipped to handle what life threw at her. Even with all the odds stacked against her, she raised six children and three grandchildren who are pretty decent people and are productive members of society. What if someone told her she didn't have the right profile to raise children and she got sterilized in advance? Wouldn't have been good for me or my sisters.

So, your final answer is "I'm not sure what my opinion is about sterilization?"

I swear, it seems the more freedom you give some people, the more they want to GIVE IT BACK! It must be so easy to promote the idea of forced sterilization when you're not the one to be sterilized.

 

[kis123]

Shadow

I respect your passion, but am not particular to your disrespect. I'm sorry you disagree with my viewpoint, but is the language you've chosen really necessary?

I wish you had more experience with what I've dealt with in the last nineteen years and you'd probably have a better understanding of what I'm trying to actually say.

Along with rights come responsibilities. If one cannot handle the responsibility, maybe they should question whether or not to excercise the right.

Let me try to explain this as best I can, remembering that you have the option to disagree:

Yes, there was a time I was considering sterilization for my autistic, mentally and emotionally handicapped, unable to handle the responsibliities of fatherhood son. Not for my benefit because he doesn't even live with me anymore. He is an adult now so I don't have to be responsible for his mistakes anymore. So this isn't about me. He's already told me several times that he (yes he) does not want children. Since we're talking about everyone's "rights" here, if he doesn't want children, doesn't he have the "right" to not have them? He's a birth control baby himself, and there is still no 100% birth control method out here except abstinence which he presently practices. What happens should he become sexually active? What happens when he brings a baby on the earth that he is incapable of helping raise and doesn't even want? Should we get the girl an abortion? Should she and her mother raise the baby? Should it be me? What if something happens to us? Another child on this earth that could've been avoided if he would have had a vasectomy..

When he spent three years unable to handle adolescence, where were you and those "rights"? Where were you when he was running away and coming home all hours of the night? Asleep in your bed while I never slept, that's where you were? What if he would've gotten someone pregant then? What life choices would you have to make? None! It was my problem and I would've had to come up with the solution. At that time, I felt the solution was sterilization. Guess what? I still think that is the solution and can find thousands of parents of disabled children that would agree with me wholehartedly. This saves these kids from lives of frustration on the lives of all the children involved. My son has NEVER wanted to be a father since he was a child. Weren't his rights violated as well?

He's an adult now, and has the choices and options. If he ever tells me again he permanently wants to make sure he doesn't have kids he doesn't want or need, I'll drive him to the hospital myself.

Everyone is so hell bent on their rights, but when it comes to being a responsible adult, everyone makes excuses and runs. It doesn't work both ways. Someone has to suffer for the irresponsible choices people make, usually it ends up being the children. Becoming a parent is not a "right" it is a priveledge and comes with a hell of a lot of responsibility that some people simply don't have in them. Those people don't need children, period!

You can curse me, rant and rave if you so desire. Unless you have lived my life and walked in my shoes, you simply shout based on an opinion you have the luxury of developing. It is easy to form an opinion when you haven't had the experience of having to deal with a situation. Those of us who have lived this thing are on a completely different level of compassion and understanding than you are on right now. It is cruel to let the mentally challenged have children they do not have the skills to raise just in the name of rights!

I wait on your response with bated breath.

 

[natural tickler]

Kis, now take a deep breath, exhale out. Feel better now?? I told don't let these ding-dongs get to you. Be better than that. Or do I have to tickle ya to get that point in your head??😛

 

[kis123]

Kis, now take a deep breath, exhale out. Feel better now?? I told don't let these ding-dongs get to you. Be better than that. Or do I have to tickle ya to get that point in your head??😛

Personally speaking, it's probably time for a break from these general discussion boards. They can be brutal at times. I don't think I'm wrong here, and folks certainly have the right to disagree.

As for you, you must like to hear me say the same thing repeatedly:

"One cannot tickle what one cannot catch!"

😀 😉 😛

 

[natural tickler]

Then if you leave, then these ding-dongs win. Never give them that satisfaction. Hey you are free to feel anyway you want, and as long as you can look in the mirror and feel good about that, that is all you need. Please don't go


and btw, you're almost caught😛

 

[Limeoutsider]

Mortifying.
More and more I'm convinced that at LEAST 50% of those out there who are breeding are unfit and deserve to be forcefed their own genitalia...

XOXO

Guessing too low, you are

 

[kis123]

Then if you leave, then these ding-dongs win. Never give them that satisfaction. Hey you are free to feel anyway you want, and as long as you can look in the mirror and feel good about that, that is all you need. Please don't go


and btw, you're almost caught😛

I appreciate your support and don't mind taking a few battle scars every now and then. I'm way too stubborn to let anyone run me away. That's why I take so many hits--I'm not very good at conceeding when I feel I'm right. If you don't believe me, just ask my ex!😀 😀

As for you, I've got just enough energy to leave you and your toothbrushes behind. Saved for another day, I guess!😀

 

[natural tickler]

Getting back to topic, those people ought to be tied up with meat all over them and let the dogs eat them alive. That is sick, to say the least

 

[ShadowTklr]

You can curse me, rant and rave if you so desire. Unless you have lived my life and walked in my shoes, you simply shout based on an opinion you have the luxury of developing. It is easy to form an opinion when you haven't had the experience of having to deal with a situation. Those of us who have lived this thing are on a completely different level of compassion and understanding than you are on right now. It is cruel to let the mentally challenged have children they do not have the skills to raise just in the name of rights!

I wait on your response with bated breath.

First of all, I didn't curse you. I have no reason to do that. Secondly, your elaboration makes miles more sense than the post to which I replied. When you say that it is your son's decision, then of course, there can be no argument. But, you didn't say that in the first post, so I replied to what you said, not what you meant to say.

Finally, I'm not talking about the morality of having your pet spaded. I'm talking about whether or not a person should have the ability to force sterilization upon another human being because of whatever political or social agenda they may have. There is no gray area there. I don't understand what the opposition is in the first place. Its not up for debate. In a free society, you should not, will not, and cannot do it. Period.

Remember, we are a FREE society (within reason), which means we should never have to fear that our person can be subjected to alteration or harm at the whim of anyone else. Why do you think we don't even chemically castrate rapists? Its just not what you're supposed to do in a free society. If that's the point you wish to argue, then be my guest. If, however, you wish to argue as to whether or not an adult human being should have the right o make those decisions for himself, then I agree with you, and we have nothing else to discuss.

You can stop holding your breath now...😎

 

[ShadowTklr]

Then if you leave, then these ding-dongs win. Never give them that satisfaction. Hey you are free to feel anyway you want, and as long as you can look in the mirror and feel good about that, that is all you need. Please don't go

Well, this Ding Dong is certainly not trying to drive anyone away. This is just you making accusations when you don't know what you're talking about. It's probably best if you sit back and read the posts before opening your pie hole. And try to stop being such a defender of the truly self-sufficient. Its pathetic. 🙂

 

[BigJim]

Quite possibly the sickest pair of fucks I've ever heard of. (And I've heard of a few!)

Not only are they unfit to be parents (or even members of the human race) but they're unfit to keep animals too. Getting an animal like a dog used to attacking people (especially children) is a horrifying thought. The animals are probably put down by now because of what they've been turned into.

 

[kis123]

Not holding my breath at all Shadow;

It is unrealistic to live in a world such as you have described without a lot of suffering. Why not castrate a rapist? He gave up the right to his members when he used them to violate another human being. Why does he deserve anything less? He certainly wouldn't sexually violate another person, would he? Yes, I'm being extreme, but I'm really trying to make a point. When you can control better judgment and don't, I don't think you deserve the same rights as someone who successfully does control themselves and doesn't inflict pain and abuse on others. What about the "right" of the victim of that violent crime? She or he doesn't have the right to live in peace? Your plan gives rights to those who continuously violate the rights of others. More are hurt than helped on this type of mindset.

So the children in this thread don't have the "right" to be raised in peace, love, and sanity? They don't have the right to have parents that treat them like human beings, not worse than animals? They let their family dog viciously attack their children. Did they have the "right" to do that?

I remember a previous post with a fellow named Oddjob. He felt women had more rights than men when it came to keeping a child or having an abortion. I argued with him for days about the rights of the mother and the unborn child.

I hope Oddjob is here to hear this one:

He had a point. If the man doesn't want a baby, he shouldn't have to be forced to deal with the situation! However, once the child is conceived, everyone's rights are not in black and white anymore. There are many shades of gray surrounding this type of issue.

Getting back to my first post about my son:

This is a huge shade of gray. I believe parents that are raising these special needs children should have the option to have their children sterilized if that child's issues are severe, or if the condition is genetic and can be passed on. Who will be there to take care of the child if something happens to the grandparent? The child is unable to care for his or herself much less the responsibility of another life.

Taking care of these kids is an overwhelming, stressful, frustrating, and life long experience. My son doesn't live at home with me, but I'm there for him the same way I have always been. He's doing well, but he will have problems for the rest of his life, and I will always be there for his support. Not every parent has the strength to endure the challenges of raised a disabled child. These kids are already filling up foster homes and orphanages. If sterilizing a child who does not have the capacity to become a parent due to mental, emotional, or severe physical handicap prevents them from bringing the same fate upon themselves, then so be it.

I know sterilization sounds like such a nasty word, but it's the term in the dictionary. I didn't make it up. We live in an imperfect world where people are born sick or become sick over time. That's enough to endure and we don't need to add to their burden with children they aren't capable of caring for. You can call it "BS" or any other of the creative terminology used in your first response to my first post, but it's still a very real problem that needs a very real solution.

 

[BigJim]

I do have reservations about blanket sterilizations because I am not convinced that 100% of all accused child abusers or child molesters who are incarcerated are actually guilty.

There's several people on this board who that wouldn't bother. In their minds it's a case of most are guilty and it doesn't matter if a small percentage convicted wrongly are punished, so long as the point is made to those who ARE guilty. That line of reasoning was applied to capital punishment too, not just jail time.

I think severe punishments are definately warranted in this case. Do I think they should ones of biblical proportions? No, I don't. You can generally tell how barbaric a place is capable of being by how much sway religion holds there. The more secular the enviroment, the less prone to overeaction and the tendency to mudhole stomping it is. I don't believe in being limp-wristed in handling offenders, especially offenders against children of all people, but I don't believe in doing more harm than good by letting my feelings for vengeance make me overreact either.

It has to be said though, letting off steam on the internet with these fantasy punishments is incredible fun. My fantasy punishment? Lock them in a room with me and force them to listen to me read all my conspiracy threads to them. They'll be bored to death inside of two hours. 😀

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Rebuttal

1. First, burn the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. Individualism is dead. It is deemed responsible for the problems of society and is outlawed.
2. Remove the Government, and turn it into a large, single-minded entity. We’ll call it “The Collective.” This new oversight body will be responsible for enforcing all new laws that are created by itself without consideration for individual thought, ideas, or movement.
3. Eliminate any media that promotes or suggests individual thought, and replace it with mandatory indoctrination programs whereby everyone must register. This means all music, TV, movies, books, magazines and advertising – everything must be created, controlled and disseminated by the Collective. Possession of any material not pre-approved by the Collective will be confiscated, and offending parties jailed.
4. All citizens must submit for tracking device implantation so they may be identified and located at a moment’s notice.
5. Mandatory psych evaluations for all citizens. The results of these evaluations, while initially intended to screen for parenthood compatibility, will now be used to determine social status as well. All citizens will be categorized by the results of their psych evaluation in order to ensure that their efforts are put to good use in the interest of an efficient society. They will be supplied with housing befitting their social status, and monitored for any signs of dissention. Individuals accused of not behaving within the parameters of their assigned social status and psychological profiles, will be jailed.

Scarily enough, this is rather similar to the society to which we're being shunted with every passing day. If you'd suggested something like the Patriot Act before a tragedy like 9/11 99% of Americans would have screamed the place down. Same for the legislation that came into being within 48 hours of the Alfred P. Murrah Building being bombed in Oklahoma.

Give it ten years and many of the above conditions will have been either mostly or fully met. The one exception I think is the Constitution/Bill of Rights/DOI. These are largely meaningless pieces of paper that Americans have been taught to venerate like the pages of some holy book, but which some politician with a history as a lawyer will be able to easily circumvent without breaking stride by so much as a step. But suggest they be removed because they are actually obstacles to personal freedom, being designed as they were by people without any interest in it, and every American citizen will gather up their ams, blankets, household effects and fight to the death.

There is nothing in this world so valuable as civil rights and personal liberty. There is also nothing in this world that has ever been so under threat.

 

[ShadowTklr]

I know sterilization sounds like such a nasty word, but it's the term in the dictionary. I didn't make it up. We live in an imperfect world where people are born sick or become sick over time. That's enough to endure and we don't need to add to their burden with children they aren't capable of caring for. You can call it "BS" or any other of the creative terminology used in your first response to my first post, but it's still a very real problem that needs a very real solution.

I was with you all the way up to the point where you said parents should have the right to sterilize their mentally handicapped children. I even buy the idea that rapists should be castrated. You're absolutely right when you say that they have abandoned all claims to "rights" as soon as they began imposing their will on innocent people.

I'm quite sure I'm not making myself understood. I apologize. Let me summarize without my perfunctory sarcasm:

People who have the pysical capabilities to participate in the procreation of another human being, by constitutional law, in our free society, cannot be forcibly physically altered for the purposes of rendering that physical attribute moot.

Now, to the question of should we make exceptions for parents of mentally handicapped children, the answer should still be "No. We should not." The reason for my opinion is that people cannot be trusted with that degree of responsibility. There is entirely too much room for the wanton corruption of power, and the use of that power to condemn only segments of our population.

I can't begin to understand the burdens with which you live, nor can I speak personally to the hardships suffered by you, but that is the reason why victims of violent crime are not allowed to mete out the punishment on the perpetrators of that crime. (I happen to think that should cahnge). They don't have an objective point of view. I don't know anything about your son, but what if he decided he wanted to have children, and what if that child grew to become a great influence on society for future generations? I know, its a lot of ifs. But since we don't know for sure that it couldn't happen, do you have the right to impose sterilization upon him, if he is unwilling?

The very second that we as a society impose our will, physically upon those among us who are deemed weaker, mentally incapable, or psychologically questionable, we crack the barn door open for atrocities against citizens for other, unrelated reasons, the likes of which would parallel the worst things you've seen in sci fi movies.

You're the one who can't have it both ways. You can't have a society willing to force-sterilze people it deems to be unworthy or incapable, and still maintain the rest of the freedoms you currently enjoy.

 

[BigJim]

Not holding my breath at all Shadow;

It is unrealistic to live in a world such as you have described without a lot of suffering. Why not castrate a rapist? He gave up the right to his members when he used them to violate another human being. Why does he deserve anything less?

Kis, I hope you don't mind me answering this question that was directed at Shadow, but I would like to post my thoughts on it.

Why not do it? Why do we not castrate a rapist, kill a murderer, or bugger a paedophile with a Belisha Beacon? Because we're better than them and if we allow ourselves to sink to the same level as the people we're punishing, we essentially become the same as them.

Cutting a rapist's knob off won't change his chances of re-offending if he's been jailed for either life or until he's too old and infirm to get an erection. Killing a murderer does nothing but push the homicide rate up because it leads to a disregard for the value of human life.

I believe that you teach by leading. That doesn't mean going all New Age on the problem and giving the Ted Bundy's of this world therapy sessions and en-suite cells (even as an opponent of capital punishment, I have to say that is one arrogant wanker that deserved every volt he got!); it means showing restraint and not giving in to our baser instincts. You don't have to be wet to be restrained and you don't have to go postal on a criminal to effectively punish him.

 

[BigJim]

Re: My Turn Again...

I never said that the sterilization procedures were designed to create a Utopia; Utopia doesn't exist, and for good reason. A Utopia would abandon (Dystopia would suppress) reasons for growth and change in favor of complacency and security...the society we live in today is a very small example of that. Endorsing Utopia would not be good for ANYBODY.

What is the point of growth and change if you have a stable and happy status quo? Why would the sky fall if you were not expanding or growing scientifically or however-ly? Why the need for that and why the distrust of a Utopian situation?

We've had growth, expansion and development for centuries and it hasn't gotten us anywhere. Never in human history has mankind be so de-linked from it's maximum capacity and creative infinity. All we've done is get on a treadmill and become obsessed with running as fast as we can just to stay still. That's why we've so lost focus with what's really important.

This existence was created for our experience of it. Why do we need to make things so difficult for ourselves?

 

[kis123]

I'm going to keep this as simple as possible;

If you are not a parent of a severely handicapped, mentally handicapped, or emotionally disturbed child you have absolutely no idea what trauma would be placed on them with the responsibility of caring for a child. I'll go to my grave feeling the parent who will be responsible for this child forever should have the option, not the "right" to impose sterilization to protect the CHILD from further trauma. If you cannot handle the responsibility, you cannot exercise the right. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is good or appropriate for you to do it!

Over the last nineteen years, I have put in a lot of work to get my son where he is today. He is a high functioning autistic with mental disabilities. There is a huge amount of energy, time, money, patience, understanding, and increased responsibility that comes along with raising these kids. I couldn't imagine having to deal with a child whose disabilities are more severe than my son. I know what I went through and hats off to those who are dealing with worse circumstances.

It is beyond ridiculous to think a severely disabled child has the capability to raise children when they can't take care of themselves. You are entitled to your opinions and this is not written to change your mind or swerve you to my point of view. But because of my experiences and living around others who raise disabled children, my conscience is crystal clear on this issue. My experience gives me greater insight over others in this area and the reasoning behind my position.

And I don't believe everyone should have the right to procreate whenever they want. Be a parent of a teenage parent and see exactly what I mean. Does that mean they should be sterilized as well? NO! But they should not be allowed to have children until they are old enough to deal with the responsibility of raising themselves. Do I have a plan for that? No, and I wouldn't begin to figure that one out. In the part of town I live in, I see way too many kids pushing strollers around. They are babies raising babies and the outcome is usually disaterous. But that is a societal ill I don't have a concrete answer for.

 

[BigJim]

Hmmmm. Interesting thoughts Kis. Your reasons for forced sterilisation are presented rationally and obviously with a compassionate and experienced point of view.

It all boils down to this question: Do you believe that our responsibility goes as far as playing God? That's essentially I believe, what we would be doing if we chose to have this sort of system.

Personally I don't think it will happen because a population of underlings (meaning us, the working class) that reproduces too much and uses too many of it's resources, always been desirous from the point of view of those who run our society. Something as streamlined and clinically efficient as this would be highly dangerous from that point of view.

 

[kis123]

It all boils down to this question: Do you believe that our responsibility goes as far as playing God? That's essentially I believe, what we would be doing if we chose to have this sort of system.

Here's an example off the beaten path:

Abortion is legal in this country and people fight for the right to it. We don't have to justify reasoning behind it. If we wanted a boy but was pregnant with a girl, she can just abort it. We have no restrictions when abortion can be obtained. We can kill the unborn to satisfy our lazy and irresponsible nature. It's our so-called "right"! We also have a choice to have the baby and deal with the consequences of that decision. The unborn get no choice.

Why is my proposition so hard for people to stomach? Isn't she playing God when she aborts a baby? Isn't the doctor who is supposed to save lives playing God when he assists in the abortion? Why is my idea so wretched when we allow women to kill thousands if not millions of human potential every day? We'd rather let a disabled and handicapped person bring life into this world that we already know cannot raise the child without a whole lot of help, but it's okay to run to the abortion clinic to shirk responsibility for screwing around and getting pregnant? If we can allow people to run to abortion clinics, we should give parents the option to sterilize that disabled child, especially if their condition is severe or genetic and can be passed on.

People yell and scream about their "rights" but when it comes to responsibility that comes with the rights, I don't hear too many talking. I'm willing to accept that responsibility, and I'm pretty sure there are thousands of parents raising disabled children that would follow suit.

This was just an example given in order to prove a point. I'm not pro-abortion by any means. But the option to use it if desired is there. That's the real point I'm addressing.

 

[BigJim]

Depends on the type of abortion I guess. One such as you describe is highly immoral in my opinion. I don't think I'm too against the idea of you sterilising a child of yours, but I'm scared as hell at the gub'mint deciding who gets it and who doesn't.

The wonderful, rights respecting, liberty loving government of the United States of Ever Loving Freedom was keen on this scenario back in the 1950's. In a certain area of a state (off the top of my head I think it was one of the Carolinas) children at school were given IQ tests and those that fell below a certain level were forcibly taken and sterilised at government clinics. Didn't matter what the parents wanted, what the school thought or how afraid the kiddie was, they lopped off knackers and tied tubes with abandon. That is why I'm against it, because I don't trust our governments to do it rightly and fairly. There is ALWAYS some hidden agenda with them.

 

[kis123]

Big Jim;

I'm not talking about goverment interference. We have enough of the government in our lives, mostly because we won't govern ourselves and we want Uncle Sam to do something we as individuals should take RESPONSIBILITY to do.

I'm definitely not talking about mandatory sterilization either. Many of these kids will never have a sexual experience beacause of the severity of the disability. Why sterilize someone who's never going to have sex? I'm talking about putting the OPTION in the hands of the parents RESPONSIBILE for their care and upbringing to make the decision that ultimately affects their family.

Notice I'm talking about that dirty little word "responsibility". It's something that's supposed to separate the adult from the child. But it seems the older I get, the more I see adults behave like children and refuse accountability for their actions. So we have Uncle Sam to do it for us, huh?

 

[BigJim]

Yep, I realize you didn't moot most of that Kis. I was addressing the question at large as some had done. Sort of a wider panorama if you know what I mean. Something like you suggest I would have certain reservations about, but wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.