Presidential debate

[His Divine Shadow]

All of you Europeans that made comments are only able to do so because the United States saved your collective butts for you in both World Wars.

Inncorrect. First of all, in WWII the tide was turned by the USSR at Stalingrad, NOT by the US. The Russians absorbed so many casualties (Nearly twenty million, as I recall) while decimating the German army Hitler foolishly sent against them, that by the time Stalingrad was over, the chances of Germany winning the war had, for all intents and purposes, reached zero. WWI was won by all parties fighting against Germany and her allies. While the US helped significantly, we should never fool ourselves into thinking we "Won the war" for Europe. It was a collective effort. We also bungled the post-war situation quite badly, allowing a situation to arise where the German people became filled with resentment at the victorious allies, who were demanding heavy reparations immediately. It was this resentment that aided the rise of Hitler and the Nazis.

Never give in to the arrogant assumption that just because we helped out in both World Wars that the US deserves whatever it demands. A world war is not won by any one country alone.

 

[alf1]

A world war is not won by any one country alone.

Yah big thanx HDS !!! What he mentioned really get me angry.
Besides i'm from Poland and that's the first country that have been attacked in wwII so it drived me even more mad.

 

[Elliewhim]

what do you get from a debate?

They didn't say anything new in the debate. What was the purpose? to have us choose who is more polished? seemed dumb to me. For those of you who care, I think Kerry came off way better....but I just don't trust him.

 

[Kalamos]

All of you Europeans that made comments are only able to do so because the United States saved your collective butts for you in both World Wars and the Cold War against the Communist's and is still being the defender of world freedom in Iran and Afganistan.

I'd like to point out a couple of things.

First: whoever said *I* or my family were saved in WWII or from Communists?

My origins are North European - and American Army actually destroyed properties and killed people from my family, while liberating Italy from Nazi-Fascism.
Don't expect me to say thanks.

Becoming a communist country is not an issue either.
Tell Alf, who is polish. Not me.
Italy suffered terror attacks to discourage Communism to catch on.
So, again, I'm rather deaf to that argument.


Second: Italy is presently lending its support to American Army in Iraq.
If we are ALLY then we get to voice our opinion.
If we are only cannon fodder then you don't need our support.


Third: Italy lost people to support American Army.
We sure don't need terrorists killing OUR soldiers, medics and journalists.
We paid a price in blood - so THAT is our right to speak.


Fourth: I've been told past is past - on this very forum a month or so ago.
So how long will you tell me your gran parents fought it over Normandy?
Julius Ceasar first invaded Great Britain around 54 b.C.
Since, most Americans come from UK, does it mean America is actually a Roman province?


Fifth: telling people to shut up is rude. 😉


Reg's.

 

[alf1]

Yah good point there K.........more democratic 😉
Besides i don't really see what's the problem with thanking Americans for speaking english as mentioned in few posts above. I think that people already speaked english in England centuries before USA were created.
Or USA have invented English language maybe 🙄

 

[Kalamos]

They consider speaking english a sign of our freedom.
I consider it a burden, since it is NOT my native language, and I had to learn it.
Talk about freedom... 😉

A foreign language is as good as any other.

 

[MayDay1]

When someone says b.s. like "saved your butts in WWII" or "thank a veteran you're speaking English" it makes me nuts. That's just a bunch of right wing jackassery that gets spouted off when they can't think of something intelligent to say. And they wonder why other countries hate us.

Answer me this, you conservo types:

If this is a war on terror, why are we in Iraq and not in Saudi Arabia where Bin Laden, the admitted perpatrator behind 9/11, is currenty holed up in? Fuck it, I'll answer my own question. Oil money. If it's not obvious to someone then that person is a jack rag.

And another thing. Bombing Iraqi civilians is right on par with Hitler gassing the Jewish. Bush and his cronies have got to go.

Do I trust Kerry? Not entirely. But don't you think the guy who's been to war has more credibility on the subject as appossed to the chimp who's daddy pulled strings so he wouldn't have to go to Nam then proceeded to snort himself stupid?

America: The country is great, it's the people who suck.

 

[alf1]

America: The country is great, it's the people who suck.

Not all it seems 😉

 

[waynec]

I can see by the majority of the comments that most people don't like President Bush and what he has done in his first term. I guess most of you must make a lot more money than I do because if Senator Kerry wins the oval office in November everyones taxes will go way up to pay for all the programs he wants to have.



The only reason taxes can go down under a republican is because pro-worker rights programs get their funding cut. Try to report something to the NLRB, or report safety issues to OSHA. Their funding has been cut way down by the corporate buddies now running the country. These are necessary programs designed to protect working families. And Bush is not defending anyone in Iraq, since all his accusations ended up being lies. There were no weapons, there was no tie to Al-quaeda, but there was oil and a big contract with Halliburton. Then, to the christians, this pro-life SOB signs China Trade, and China FORCES abortion on their people. They also operate sweatshops, and Bush claims to be pro-human rights. I'm sure pro-life and human rights don't matter when that corporate dollar starts waiving in your face. I could go on and on, but this is the wrong forum to do that.

 

[coloman]

Glad I got everyones attention. I guess the truth hurts and all your comments prove it. It makes no difference if a Democrat or a Republican is in the White House as far as OSHA or thr NLRB goes. I am in a union where I work and if anyone sends a report to either of those agencies the company has to respond to them or they are in deep trouble. I am also a Viet Nam Era vet so if anyone wants to talk about BS, lets talk about the bullshit and disrespect my generation of Vets had to tolerate from most of the American public simply because we were doing a job and wearing a uniform at the same time.

 

[Kalamos]

If you need to insult people to get some attention, maybe something is wrong.

You say you are a Viet Nam vet, yet you disregard the sacrifices my country's soldiers are making now for your coutry.

How do you answer to that? I got my attention. Now anwer to my questions.

 

[coloman]

I don't think I insulted anybody, all I did was state my opinion on all of the things I talked about. I am glad I live in a country were everyone has the freedom to say what they want and have their own opinion on the issues.That's the best thing about America and the two party political system we have the freedom to agree or disagree with others no matter who in in the White House. That's why this country and our form of government evolved and continues to do so dating from the American Revolution and continuing to this day.

 

[Kalamos]

What about your "opinion" about Europeans?

Was it just a joke to get your share of attention?
Or do you really believe we should be still thanking American Army to this day?

What about Iraqi people? Will they be forever in debt with your Army?
When is this "umbilical cord" going to be severed?

 

[coloman]

We could go on and on about this but it's clear that you have your opinion's, I have mine and we are on opposite sides of them fence so lets end it at that and be done with it.

 

[jrubicante]

President Bush may not have done everything right over the last four years but I hope he wins another term in offfice. That's because I don't want to pay higher taxes to pay for all the programs the Democrats want to put into place

I think that's incredibly selfish of you. I can see why you're voting Republican, because you don't want your money to support all these so called "liberal" causes that help people that can't help themselves, you'd rather rely on a few charitable rich people to do that.
Bush has destroyed all the progress Clinton had made towards paying off the national deficit, turned the pity the whole world felt for us after 9/11 into disgust, and committed our entire army to a quagmire which leaves us unable to issue overwhelming force in any other area of the globe (North Korea, Sudan, Iran, etc).
He certainly has not "done everything right over the past four years." But I see how you could overlook all that, as Bush doesn't tell you you have to use your hard earned money to help anyone but yourself.

President Bush may not be the best word smith but at least he is steadfast in his actions.

If by 'steadfast in his actions' you mean 'sees an opportunity after 9/11 to get the family enemy Saddam Hussein out of office and ignores all the advice of all the professionals around him while rushing into a war which has no exit strategy' then yes, yes he is steadfast in his actions.

I'm sorry if you're one of the Americans living in the United States who's still living in Viet Nam. You should want to show the world that the United States does not support the 'steadfast' agenda of the Bush administration. Once the world sees that, they will be more willing to help relieve the U.S. in Iraq so that years from today we will not have American vets living in the United States while still living in Iraq.

 

[coloman]

I am not a liberal and I don't support liberal causes. I am a conservative and that's why I vote Republican. I don't still live in Viet Nam I was just saying that my generation of Veterans of which I am proud to be a member was treated poorly and with disrespect by most of the American public. There are probably a ton of opinions on that one way or the other but then again I have the right to my opinion and you have the right to yours so lets leave it at that.

 

[jrubicante]

I am not a liberal and I don't support liberal causes. I am a conservative and that's why I vote Republican. I don't still live in Viet Nam I was just saying that my generation of Veterans of which I am proud to be a member was treated poorly and with disrespect by most of the American public. There are probably a ton of opinions on that one way or the other but then again I have the right to my opinion and you have the right to yours so lets leave it at that.

You're right, I realize that I may have been insulting to you and that you do have the right to your own opinion. I'm sorry for that.

The real reason I posted was because you said that Bush "has not exactly done everything right in his first term" and I didn't think you knew exactly how much of an understatement that was.

I guess all the stuff about distribution of wealth / veterans that I mentioned just came with the territory. I should not have brought it up. Once again, I apologize.

 

[Kalamos]

We could go on and on about this but it's clear that you have your opinion's, I have mine and we are on opposite sides of them fence so lets end it at that and be done with it.

Nonsense.

In the same vein I might say America lives off European markets so you should thank us for buying your junk.

Take some responsibility for the opinions you express, and don't hide behind the feeble excuse "we have different opinions".

There is no fence here: Italy is supporting American Army. However laughable it might seem to you, every dead Italian soldier is a living marine, so you might ponder more deeply how you express your "opinions" next time.

If supporting your country's Army is being on opposite sides of the fence, I wonder how you consider people who actively oppose America, or the present president.

What is this war about? Justice? Retribution? Democracy? Freedom?
If it is, then *DO* practice democracy, and answer my questions.

Is giving the life for your country enough, or will European countries be seen only as "the old blokes we liberated in '44"?

How is a marine's life sacred, and an italian's life expendable?
Explain that to me, democracy-lover. I can't seem to understand.

 

[alf1]

again I have the right to my opinion and you have the right to yours so lets leave it at that.

Explain yourself, instead of saying let's leave at it. That's childish.
You began being insulting towards european people so now you have to assume it.

 

[coloman]

You are right the soldiers of Italy and all the other countries have made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq and every war before that so I apologize for not giving them the credit and honor they are entitled too. I have to say I don't like people who actively oppose America and the President but they do have the right to their opposition and I have no problems with that but I don't have to like them either. This war is about helping the people of Iraq and Afganistan to live in freedom and not under the rule of dictators and terrorists. I am sorry that any soldier has to die defending the rights of freedom of other people but unfortunately that is a sad fact of any war. Economics is making a dollar and in the spirit of free trade I don't think the countries of Europe would buy what we sell you if it was junk like you say it is. There you go I practiced Democracy and answered your questions and I hope that satisfies you.

 

[coloman]

I don't feel I ever was being insulting to Europeans I just am stating that I have the right to express my feelings and opinions about Europeans just as you have the right to express your feelings and opinions about Americans. I hope this clears things up for you but I also think it's futile for us to argue about issues we are obviously in disagreement over.

 

[alf1]

This war is about helping the people of Iraq and Afganistan to live in freedom and not under the rule of dictators and terrorists

What will be your reaction if a country says : ok we think that the USA are not living in very good conditions. We will attack them and then we'll show how to do things right.
Besides i thought that "war" was finished a year ago.

 

[Kalamos]

I'd be satisfied if people stopped thinking of Europeans as something utterly different from Americans.

Americans come from Europe - they don't come from Mars. And that's *not* a way of implying America owes something to Europe: it is meant to remind us all we are similar and share common origins.

That's why we think we have a right to voice in our opinions - even about a president: he is a person, a man of flesh and blood, not an otherworldly superior alien being.
If voters deem him wrong, it is pointless to cling desperately to him and his opinions.

The terrible thing is, american votes are going to affect my country too - and I have *NO* means to express my vote in any way.

 

[coloman]

Note to Alf; I think if any country was foolish enough to attack America on our own soil for any reason they would find us to be a formidable opponent.

Note to Kalamos: I will conceed that except for Native Americans we do "come from Europe and not from Mars. I am sorry that as you say "american votes are going to affect my country too" but that is just a fact that exsists in the world today. On election day if enough Americans "deem him wrong" then President Bush will not win another term. It's just about 50 / 50 as of now as to who will win the election and be the President of the USA. I hope Bush wins another term but if Kerry wins I don't think there will be any sweeping changes in this country in our attitude towards the rest of the nations of the world.

 

[Kalamos]

In your attitude.

And besides, I've never expressed an opinion about Mr Bush or Mr Kerry.
My only problem is: keep in mind you are deciding for the rest of the world too.