Rate the Super Bowl...and the Upset

[Dave2112]

Well, by now we all know the outcome of Super Bowl XXII. (Sorry, Ray...I really mean that. Can't imagine how you feel right now, bro.)

SO, rather than start another "you suck" thread between users here, let's just talk about the game and where it ranks in the pantheon of sports history.

First off, the MVP award. These have been debated over the years, and this one will as well. When things got rolling in the fourth quarter, I said to myself that if the Pats won, the MVP was easy. Wes Welker. No, not Brady...Wes Welker. This undersized, cast-off receiver was the only reason the Pats were even close in this game. He made some amazing catches and was the one real bright spot of an overwhelmed Patriots offense.

Now, says I to my own self, should the Giants win, who do you give it to? Well, considering what happened on the final drive for the G-Men, the Manning choice was a no-brainer. Let's face it...voters and those in the sport were just praying for an excuse to not only have the hot story of two brothers winning back-to-back Super Bowls, but both winning the MVP award. And before we count out his deservedness, can you really say Eli didn't deserve it just because he didn't put up a lot of points? This kid never gave up, never looked at the scoreboard that hung at a dismal 3 for most of the game. He kept on fighting and found every opportunity to give his team a chance. And the final drive sealed it. The escape from the pocket, facing an imminent sack that could have ended the game, and the miracle throw...this wasn't just another Super Bowl play. This one's gonna get a Name. Like the Immaculate Reception, The Drive, The Catch...(speaking of catches, let's not forget Tyree in this mix. One of the greatest desperation catches EVER.)

What do we call this one? We're gonna have to dub it eventually. How about "The Scramble"? Sounds good.

Eli's performance notwithstanding, I was thinking throughout most of the game that if the Giants won, the NFL should break tradition and give the MVP award to the entire defensive squad. There have been co-MVP's before, and this would have been well-deserved. Without trying to sound too emotionally driven here, I would honestly rank this as one of THE great defensive performances in the history of the Super Bowl. The '85 Bears, the '78 Steelers, the '00 Ravens, the '02 Bucs...and now the '07 Giants. And NONE of those defenses faced the firepower the Giants faced (ok, maybe the Steelers did.)

So, where does this rank as both a Super Bowl and a sports upset? As far as Super Bowls go, I say this was a Top 5 game. Low scoring, yes. But for those of us who appreciate defense...this was perhaps the greatest defensive SB ever played, by both teams. 7-3 from the two opening drives until the middle of the fourth quarter. And then the remainder of the fourth kicked in and I was on the edge of my seat. That's how I judge a Super Bowl, regardless of points. How long did I spend on the edge of my seat? This one...most of the game. So, speaking only for myself, I have a shortlist of Pittsburgh over Dallas, 49ers over Bengals (88), Rams over Titans, Pats over Rams, Pats over Panthers and now Giants over Pats. And this game ranks up there with the Niners and Pats (Panthers) games as the greatest I've seen.

Now, how about in sports?

I'm gonna catch heat for this...but this was Top 3 for me. In the pantheon of great sports upsets, I rank this game up there with two others. The 1980 Men's Olympic Hockey team aka: the "Miracle on Ice" and Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson in his prime in 1990. That's the shortlist for me. Yes, there have been many sports upsets, but none so moving and with so many side-stories as these three. (Speaking of side-stories....strange how Plaxico Buress' prediction and guarantee wasn't too far off. Brady bristled at Plax only giving them 17 points, and the Pats didn't even get that!)

I'm not gonna slam the Pats here. Yeah, a lot of folks just wanted to see the Pats lose for the sake of seeing them lose. Had they won, they would have unquestionably deserved it. They faced some tough teams down the stretch and would have beaten their toughest opponent to go undefeated. People rarely remember Super Bowl losers, but we'll remember the '07 Patriots. To do what they did in the Parity Age of the NFL is near-impossible. However, this at least leaves a goal for the NFL. A 19-0 season is still the goal for everyone, and at least now we know it can be done in the modern game.

So, those are the topics for this thread. Where does this game stand as far as Super Bowls go? Where does it stand as far as sports upsets go? And...what the hell do we call that play that will be remembered forever?

Congrats to the New York Football Giants.

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

Let me start by saying, I predicted ( look at week#21-Super Bowl thread ) that the Giants would win 31-27. So even though the score was off, I had the right team. So was it an upset??? In my mind, no. But I can see where people thought it was an upset based on the fact that the Pats were 18-0 and it was Brady and Belichick versus Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin who were in their very first Super Bowl. You obviously must favor the Hall of Fame coach and QB over Manning and Coughlin.

Here is the way I viewed the game walking in ( again you can look at the thread ), the Patriots had a book out called the Perfect Season 19-0. You gave the Giants bulletin board material. You didn't need to go further than there. But I will. Book published and now the Patriots MUST go out and perform. As I said in that other thread, the Giants were playing with house money. They had NOTHING to lose. When they beat Dallas in the Divisional Round all bets were off. The Patriots had ALL the pressure on them. The Giants were in a situation where they were the underdog from week#17 through the Super Bowl in peoples minds. The Giants if they lost, 'well they were suppose to lose' is what people would say. Or they would say 'They lost to the Pats what did you expect?' The Giants were in a PERFECT ( no pun intended ) situation to go out in win a game because there was NO PRESSURE on them. They could play fast and loose.

As far as the MVP, I agree with Dave in that you could give it to the entire Giants defense. But I think Eli Manning was the perfect choice here because he out Brady'ed Tom Brady. He did what Brady has made a career at doing. Driving a team down the field in the two minute drill for that come from behind game winning touchdown. Manning did what Brady had done so many times you can't even count. What Eli Maning did last night was put his name up there with Brett Farve, John Elway and Payton Manning. You can't put Eli in the class of Brady or Aikman or Bradshaw or Montana but he did carve his name in the class of Farve ( and remember he outplayed and outclassed Farve in the NFC Championship Game ), his brother and Elway.

I like your name of that play " The Scramble " But since the Tyree catch was in that same play I would call it the " The Scramble and Catch ". It was truly a remarkable play by a QB and his WR. Or we can just call it " The Play " since in a lot of peoples minds that play might have just as well rewritten history.

As far as it's historical place in sports, I would place it there in the Top 10. I would go with " The Miracle on Ice " but I would have to throw the 2004 Red Sox at number 2. ( I can't use a fight because anything is possible in a 36 minute fight ) The Red Sox were down three games to none and over the stretch of four days were able to do something that no team in baseball history was able to do and that was to wipe out a 3-0 deficit. You have to throw the Jets stopping the Colts 16-7 in Super Bowl III historic because that led to the AFL/NFL merger. And again the reason why I don't rank last night's game so high is because I expected them to win the game. It is hard rank a game so high when I predicted the win. Was it a historical win because the Patriots didn't finish up the perfect season??? Absolutely. Was it the greatest upset of all time??? Nah. Not even close.

Dave--- Hopefully you think this was an good post. I do like this thread you started. I hope you get plenty of responses. I would be curious to see exactly where people put last night's game. Again, only because I thought the Giants would win is the one of the reasons why I can't put it top three.

 

[giantfan121262]

Het there everyone

I may be a bit biased, but here it goes.

when I was drinking with my buddies last night, I said to them that this drive was going to define Manning. He could either be a good QB who will fall into a pool with all but 5 QB's in the league, or a great QB. Let's face it, unless you go out and win a big game, or engineer a game winning drive, you won't distinguish yourself. Manning did, and he actually made sure the drive stayed alive with "the scramble" (good one, Dave). with that thought in mind, I think it was fitting Manning got the MVP. He didn't play to lose, he went out there and won the game for them. I still don't think he is a top shelf QB like Montana, Staubach, or even Brady, but he did niche himself up there with some of the best. Not mentioned was that he did something Marino never did in his career, win the big one.

AFA upsets go, I can think of quite a few that might trump this. Miracle on Ice comes to mind, Tyson getting KOed in his prime is another, the 1969 Mets, the 1969 Jets, the 1988 dodgers, the 2006 Warriors. I', sure there are more. This is especially glaring because it ruined the quest for prefection, but if yoyu put the two teams together at this given time, the Giants were playing just as well as anyone in the league.

 

[toyou444]

Here's what I posted in the Pats newsgroup regarding the game:

Well I see the regulars are deserting the place for a while so the trolls can tire themselves out, but just in case they are still reading here are my two cents:

1) Great overall game. yes I was happy the Pats lost, but as a football fan the entire game was well played. Great plays on defense. Some crazy offensive plays. And best of all the stupid zebras did not have a major effect on the outcome!

2) Good challenge on the 12 men on the field call. Its another reason I hate BB! LOL! I was calling hima prick...but he was right and I don't think a lot of other cocaches would have made that call.

3) Something was wrong with Brady. I don't know if it was physical or mental...but what was the deal with him sitting on sidelines by himself the whole game? Usually he's a guy looking at photos from the booth or rallying the linemen. He just looked drugged out (not saying he was on drugs) or out of it. The only emotion I saw was on an incomplete pass to Welker in the 3rd or 4th quarter. He overthrew by about 3 feet and then yelled at Welker...maybe about running the wrong route or something.

4) It looked like Moss could have had that third down catch on the last drive but just didn't stretch out enough for it. It would have been a remarkable catch, but he's a heck of a receiver (should have been MVP over Brady IMHO).

5) Really surprised at the lack of an attacking offense. A couple 3rd and shorts come to mind where the Pats went for it in the regular season and playoffs but didn't yesterday when they didn't make it.

6) I've never seen so many receiver/rbs catch the ball and then just fall forward when surrounded! Welker looks like the only one willing to take a hit...and Stallworth had the one good catch and tried to fight forward, but that was it.

7) The defense looked gassed even on the first drive of the first quarter. They still held it together enough to make it a great game though. Great schemes to help some tired players. I think it caught up with them in the end.

8) I felt so bad for the Giant's CB when he slipped and Moss got the go ahead TD...but after watching the play again there was no way in would have been in position to stop Moss anway.

9) Tyree got my vote for MVP. One TD and the amazing catch! How that ball never hit the ground is amazing!

I've said since before the Pats beat my Steelers that the team to beat the Pats would have three things: A great pass-rush (w/o much blitzing). A running game when they needed it. Agressive corners to keep the game in front of them. To go undefeated takes more than just skill ans schemes. It takes good health to your key players and a good amount of luck. The luck ran out and so did the undefeated season...nothing to be ashamed of. Your team played a team that just wanted it a little bit more.


As to the play by Manning and Tyree...if we're calling it the scramble and catch...then lets call it "The Scratch"!

~ toyou

 

[RobAce]

OK, all making fun of the situation aside...its time to enter this great thread and put some real assessments out there....

The Giants coming out in the first quarter and winning the coin toss and electing to take the ball first was the start of it...I don't know how noticed it was but Brady seemed visibly upset that they lost the toss. But thats not the reason why it was the start. The Giant's controlled the ball, over 9 minutes and kept the Pat's offense on the sideline....cold and anxious. They gave themselves the confidence that the last game was no fluke...they can play with the Pats and even beat them. That first drive had everything, runs, passes good protection and good decision making. Granted they only got a field goal but points on the first drive were important.
Now what can you say about the Giants defense other than "WOW!" Their front 4 DOMINATED the game. I have never seen Brady frazzled like that. He was screaming at receivers, throwing terrible looking balls, and it seemed after the first quarter he was rushing everything expecting to take a hit every down. Even the offensive linemen looked confused wondering how 4 could overpower them so often. The safety's which were to be the team weakness hardly had to worry because the pass rush kept Brady from going deep, and when they did they had help because the DB's were covering the under.
I heard a lot of people talking about how they never question Belichick's calls but I wonder as Im sure many others will why he did not kick the field goal in the 3rd quarter, would have put them up by 10-3..instead they go for a 4 and 13..miss it and gave the Giants great field position.
Honestly I think a lot of this game was won on field position. The Pats started in the shadow of the end zone a lot of times and had the offense to drive 30-45 yards before they stalled. Where the Giants seemed to play a lot between the 30's and was able with a great punter to keep the Pats from starting with good field position.
I will admit I was thinking about another great Pat's comeback when the Giants punted on a 4th and 1, and then the Pat's drove down the field to score and go up 14-10. I thought that was it and wondered why Coughlin did not go for it...they had the momentum and with Jacobs all they needed was him to fall forward...but they did go for it when they needed it.

The last drive was amazing. Reminding me of great drives by Elway. When Elway won his first Super Bowl I knew he was going to win by the determination in his eyes and body language, I saw that in Eli from the first snap of that game winning drive. I see the play is being labeled as "The Scramble" "The Catch" and "The Scratch"...I simply call that play "Destiny"
Nothing was going to keep Eli from making that play...with Pats all around groping all over to pull him down, Eli simply did everything he could to make a play....by the way KUDOS to the refs for NOT blowing the play dead to protect the QB. So may other games I watch I see the refs quick on the whistle, on this occasion they let them play!...and when he made his play Tyree made his knowing that if Eli did all that work to get him the ball he better hold on to that ball! That was not as much of a catch as it was hanging on. The catch was great...but how he held on not letting it hit the turf so that a replay would not determine the game was simply outstanding.

Then came what I label "The Juke". All game Burress had been doubled but on that play he was in one on one coverage and Burress made the fake for the slant which was bitten on hard and then he simply went to the outside and caught that floater for an easy touchdown. But I bet while that ball was in the air....it seemed like forever until it got there.

35 seconds....3 timeouts.....enough time for a field goal I thought. Then I saw the Giants...they at that moment had more energy than they had the entire game...the entire season for that fact. They knew that their defense had held the best statistical offense to 14 points, they could hold one more time. The Pats looked down trodden. Their offensive line was standing in the huddle heads down, even Brady for once was not standing as tall. And then a rookie breaks through on 2nd and 10 and makes "The Sack". Putting the Pat's in a 3 and 20. Where all they had to do was put 4 upfront and put 6 guys at the first down marker.
Incomplete, Incomplete....GAME OVER.

But in a last gasp of their selfish ways....Bitter (Bill) Belichick left the field not wanting to see the last play...the one that perhaps ended one dynasty and perhaps started another.

Certainly one of the top 3 Super Bowls Ive ever seen....I rank it with the 49ers and Bengals and the Bills and Giants.
As far as upsets go.....In the football world its top 5. In the sports world, top 10.

Great Thread, I look forward to reading more people's thoughts.

Rob

 

[Dave2112]

Good posts, thanks!

As far as where this game ranks in the sports world of upsets, I ranked it high mostly for personal reasons...I love the game of football and know how hard upsets are. Also, even though many good upsets were mentioned, you also have to look at not only the performance of the winning team/performer, but the opposition they faced. The first NFC wild-card to reach the Super Bowl against an unprecedented undefeated team that had broken many records along the way? Pretty impressive to me. But again, when ranking this catagory, a lot of it's going to come down to personal preference. I think we all agree it was worthy of rememberance among the great sports upsets.

Good call on the ref situation noted by some of you. In fact, when the game first started and they showed who the head ref was, I even mentioned to my Mom, who I watched the game with, that I was pleased with the choice. Good ref who takes the game seriously and doesn't go for the call every time just to get his face on TV. Also, he lets the plays happen, rather than blow the whistle to protect the QB, as was mentioned.

The reason I rank this game so high was because the Patriots didn't "choke" or "fold." If the Pats showed up obviously playing lousy, obviously loking overmatched, distracted or just plain "off" and the game wound up 38-14 or something...you could say the Giants took advantage of a bad day by the Pats. But, to the Pats credit...they played hard and well. They just got stopped by a better Giants team. Better last night anyway. And that's what makes a champion and what makes an upset. A team that's inferior on paper, by record or by performace pulling together a game that defeats a superior opponent. It's not that the Pats played bad because they sucked. Their play was the result of better play by the Giants. For the year of 2007, were the Giants the better team? No. Did they outplay a better team in the Super Bowl? Yes.

Here's how I see it. I had this very conversation with a friend just four days before the game. If the Patriots won, the arguement would be made (for many years to come, I imagine) that they were the best team to play the game. But, if the Giants won, would anyone be making the case for them to be considered the greatest ever? No...even though they beat the team you would have called the greatest. They just played a better game. And that's all that counts.

That's why I ranked the upset so high. The opponent. There's no way Buster Douglas should have beaten Mike Tyson. Mike was in the process of pissing off every PPV buyer in America with his consistent 90-second knockouts. And Douglas was not in that great shape. I remember that fight distinctly, and the conversation I had with my then-brother-in-law about them "getting to the point where they were spoon-feeding" Tyson his opponents. And, the 80 Olympic Hockey Team's underdog status has been well-documented. You just didn't beat Russia. Especially not with a bunch of college cast-offs. Now that it's been metioned, I'd rank the 2004 red Sox up there as well, although just behind the Giants last night. It's not the games they won. The fact that they broke a record by winning four after being down 0-3 is surely something special. But, the Yankees weren't in that "unbeatable" mode or anything. It's not like they were some sort of untouchable juggernaut. The Sox got themselves into a 0-3 hole, then clawed out of it. Impressive, but the opponent wasn't quite on par with what the Giants faced...or Buster Douglas or the '80 Hockey Team.

Good responses so far!

 

[Pagoda]

A game like last night's is a perfect example of why I don't think the Super Bowl MVP award should exist. It becomes forced when you 'have' to give it to someone, and we all know there was not an MVP for the Giants last night. The entire defense stepped up and played their hearts out, and the offense kept mistakes to a minimum. Eli had a fantastic final quarter, and Tyree had an amazing play. There wasn't one guy who was making plays for all 4 quarters, and that isn't a bad thing. It was a team win, and it's pretty dumb to pick an MVP. But I do understand it's about money, and Cadillac sponsored the award, etc... Just seems dumb.

Now, if the Pats had won, they did have an MVP. And it was the same guy who (in my opinion) was their real MVP all season. Wes Welker. 11 catches. Pound for pound, one of the top 5 WRs in the sport today.

Luckily...the Pats didn't win 🙂

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

A game like last night's is a perfect example of why I don't think the Super Bowl MVP award should exist. It becomes forced when you 'have' to give it to someone, and we all know there was not an MVP for the Giants last night. The entire defense stepped up and played their hearts out, and the offense kept mistakes to a minimum. Eli had a fantastic final quarter, and Tyree had an amazing play. There wasn't one guy who was making plays for all 4 quarters, and that isn't a bad thing. It was a team win, and it's pretty dumb to pick an MVP. But I do understand it's about money, and Cadillac sponsored the award, etc... Just seems dumb.

Now, if the Pats had won, they did have an MVP. And it was the same guy who (in my opinion) was their real MVP all season. Wes Welker. 11 catches. Pound for pound, one of the top 5 WRs in the sport today.

Luckily...the Pats didn't win 🙂

While I agree with everything you said, Eli Manning did throw for 150 of his 255 yards in the 4th quarter. He also threw for two TD's in that 4th Quarter and lead the team from behind twice in that 4th quarter. Keep in mind, while the Giants did play a GREAT defense, after Manning had given them a 10-7 lead, Brady did drive his team down the field with an OVER 5 minute drive to give the Patriots the lead back after Brady hit Moss in the endzone for the go-ahead TD with 2:42 to go in the game. So, in fact, Eli Manning had to engineer a drive in the waning moments of the game.

My point is when the game was on the line with a 10-7 lead, the Giants defense did not hold serve forcing Eli Manning to go 83 yards for that final TD. And let's be fair here, Eli could put them in FG range, it had to be a TD. So Eli, in my opinion, earned the award because of the 4th quarter and that final drive in particular.

 

[innocentsexcat]

Kitty says Patriots can't win every year, however Kitty put a curse on the team by watching. She usually never does. Kitty thought the game was boring for the most part. She or I did like Tom Petty at the halftime, at least he was live and not lip synching. Kitty wonders, was that a wig?

 

[jppower]

While I agree with everything you said, Eli Manning did throw for 150 of his 255 yards in the 4th quarter. He also threw for two TD's in that 4th Quarter and lead the team from behind twice in that 4th quarter. Keep in mind, while the Giants did play a GREAT defense, after Manning had given them a 10-7 lead, Brady did drive his team down the field with an OVER 5 minute drive to give the Patriots the lead back after Brady hit Moss in the endzone for the go-ahead TD with 2:42 to go in the game. So, in fact, Eli Manning had to engineer a drive in the waning moments of the game.

Noted and agreed -- but here's my rebuttal..

If New England...the same team that for 16 weeks seemed to put 35 on the board with the greatest of ease..got one more TD in that game, Eli could have put up the exact same 4th quarter (which, noted, was one of the greatest in SB history), but the Giants would have lost.

By holding NE to only 2 scores, the Giants defense was the most valuable part of that game, and the definitive difference maker. It wasn't Eli. Teams have scored on the Pats this year, but teams hadn't stopped them. That was the difference in this game, and clearly the valuable piece to the puzzle. The piece that nobody else had this year.

Not discouting Eli's performance. I'm super glad the Giants won and would have vomited if the Pats had won. I just sometimes struggle when I feel the term MVP isn't taken by it's literal meaning. But everyone's got their own view on it.

 

[zepp3320]

i agree the difference maker was the giants defense, but eli won the mvp for the same reason that brady won it in 2002. neither had amazing stats but both qbs led their teams to game winning drives, and eli led his team to a touchdown, brady just had to get into field goal range.

 

[Goodieluver]

The perfection on the line meant little to me in the upset and whatnot. It was just a great game, a high powered offense vs the giants. Giants held them and the last drive by the Giants will be one of those drives always talked about, esp that last pass to Tyree and eli scrambling out of a sack to the 4th down conversion.

 

[theticklingmaster]

Call the Manning to Tyree Play "The Slip & Grip." - J.A. Adande of the L.A. Times suggested it on Around the Horn, & I like it better than the Manning Jailbreak + The Jump & Helmet.

Easily, the play was the number one superbowl play of all time, for degree of difficulty on both ends & any failure probably means game over. (Note the Patriots waiting around Tyree for the interception on any rebound.)

The Patriots I think are going to be remembered as the best Superbowl loser - I don't know if we'll see another 18-0 team reach the superbowl. It's just too hard.

It's clear after this superbowl that while Brady is a great quarterback, he's still a system quarterback that is not guaranteed to succeed if the system breaks down. I don't think, if you put him in another system on another team, that he would have guaranteed success. He'll have some, but not to the level that he had with the Patriots. The reason he's had so much success was that the system was very good - he had all of two sacks in the previous three superbowls - another stat that was mentioned in the Fox telecast - see Jinxing below.

I think history has to ignore the betting lines & rate this overall as the #1 upset so far, because of the previously perfect storylines around the Patriots is far harder to overcome than a few extra betting line points. The Patriots didn't choke, & they played well enough to win the game, even with the massive pass rush.

Now on Eli Manning, history will look a little more favorable over Peyton since he is now 36-28 with a ring. Brother Peyton was 32-32 after four seasons with 0 playoff victories.

The referees did a great job. They let the players play, & were not part of any big analysis story. They did their job without being noticed too often. (The Belichick early exit is not their doing.)

Jinxing - Finally, History may look back at Fox jinxing statistics in the playoffs, even in the regular season. I'll list them out for you. They said all these stats during the games, with most of the playoff stats coming in the 4th quarter.

1. Minnesota Vikings at NYG: "The Vikings are the last-ranked pass defense in the NFL." They pick off Eli 4 times, returning 3 for TDs.

2. "Jeff Garcia is 2-0 in the postseason against the Giants." Giants pound him 24-14.

3. "Joe Gibbs has never lost a playoff game in which he has the lead in the 4th quarter." Washington just took a 14-13 lead, but got romped 35-14 by Seattle.

4. "No NFC No. 1 seed has lost in the divisional round since the current playoff system was adopted in 1990." There's always a first - Dallas loses 21-17.

5. "No opposing kicker has made a field goal of over 40 yards at Lambeau Field." Lawrence Tynes kicks a 47-yard GW FG after missing his previous two FG's, prompting Joe Buck to say, "And the Giants are going to the Superbowl."

5A. The Fox telecast saved the 3-0 (now 4-0) Giant NFC Championship record for pre-game & post-game analysis, but never said it during the game.

6. "Teams that have the lead at halftime of the Superbowl are 32-7." Yet the Patriots were just not meant to be champs, losing 17-14.

Bonus From ESPN.com's Tuesday Morning Quarterback
Stat of the Week No. 10: It remains true -- the regular-season NFL passing yardage leader has never gone on to win the Super Bowl in the same season.

 

[Dave2112]

i agree the difference maker was the giants defense, but eli won the mvp for the same reason that brady won it in 2002. neither had amazing stats but both qbs led their teams to game winning drives, and eli led his team to a touchdown, brady just had to get into field goal range.

Excellent point.