Spygate and the Patriots

[MWhoTklsFemFeet]

To no suprise here, I am a Cowboys fan, but I also have a huge amount of respect for what the Patriots have done by winning 3 of 4 super bowls, but all this talk about how the Patriots were "cheating" and that there dynasty as well as there integrity should be question is totally ridiclous.

First the plain fact is this, if the Patriots were video taping walk throughs, and even if they tape the Rams before the Super Bowl, they still have to go out and excute, if they know it's Marshall Faulk to the left, or Kurt Warner on a roll out to Torry Holt, the defense still has to stop them or if Warner knew something was up, he could call an audible at the line.

Second of all (and this is what really gets me) is the fact that Sen. Arlen Spector, a rep from Pennsylvania (home state of the Steelers and Eagles who both lost to the Patriots) wants a independent investigation into this, not to mention that this whole thing started with the supossed "Man-genius" Eric Magini the head coach of the Jets who got his ass handed to him in week one by the Patriots.

Just kinda funny to me that the ones who lost are crying foul is all.

 

[slacker2114]

First of all, don't lump all of us Pennsylvanians in with a dipshit like Arlen Specter. I was annoyed as hell when I heard he wanted an investigation. It's NFL business and has nothing to do with the bribes and kickbacks and such he gets in the world of politics. It has nothing to do with Pittsburgh or Philly losing to the Pats. It's just him trying to grab headlines. Fuck Arlen Specter.

Secondly, I believe ALL teams do what the Pats did. They just got caught doing it. You're right, execution has a lot to do with it, but it can give you an edge. They got caught, they got penalized and, as a result, will be under scrutiny. Does it mean their so-called dynasty is tarnished? Only time will tell, really.

Personally, I'm glad they got caught. I hate NE, especially Brady and Belichick. Yes, partly because of losses that cost the Steelers Super Bowl bids. But it's just one of those teams I hate. Almost like a rival team.

Let's just see what happens when the next season starts.

 

[RobAce]

Myself not having a favorite NFL team I look at this as objectively as possible.

Here is what I understand.

NE has been doing it only since Belichick became head coach.
They had been warned repeatedly about not doing it and it was against the rules.
New England continued. And though they made a big deal about the Super Bowl walk through tape that never was...is not an AFC Championship game that was taped almost as important?
A letter was sent out, reminding teams NOT TO tape.
New England still did it.
They were caught.
The NFL takes all the info, destroys it and tells us at that time that it was just a few incidents. Then we find out later it was done all the time since 2000.
Then it was just defensive signals. Now we find out offensive signals were taped as well.
That along with a lot of feet shuffling and covering up leads me to believe that something is rotten in land of the NFL, and they are quickly trying to sweep it away and hope it is forgotten.

This is the NFL version of MLB's steroids. MLB knew it was happening and ignored it, it till it blew up in their faces. I do not want the NFL to be brought down like that. There does need to be an independent REVIEW not investigation. I would rather someone review what they did and such and recommend changes for future internal investigations. I would not be against an independent investigation, just would rather a review.

But looking at this without a favorite team, and just a love of the sport, something just does not set right with the handling of this. The NFL is way to smart just to have made "mistakes".

Rob

 

[MWhoTklsFemFeet]

Rob you kinda help out what Ive been saying a little, this has been going on since 2000, why haven't the Patriots had better records and a few more Super Bowl titles? Three championships in four years and they've been filming all this time?

Either somebody didnt do there job right or how about this logic...The Patriots are a really good team.

 

[Heeko]

Rob you kinda help out what Ive been saying a little, this has been going on since 2000, why haven't the Patriots had better records and a few more Super Bowl titles? Three championships in four years and they've been filming all this time?

Either somebody didnt do there job right or how about this logic...The Patriots are a really good team.

Maybe it was because of schedule rotation. Maybe it was because they didn't have film of most of the teams they were playing. Maybe it was because they didn't want to seem too obvious. Who knows why they were cheating? If the Patriots are such a "really good team" why were they cheating to begin with?

What disturbs me most about this is how some fans are saying "No biggie. They got caught. Get over it." Yet these same fans are foaming at the mouth at the thought of hanging Barry Bonds or even Roger Clemens. News Flash: Cheating is cheating. There is no 'lesser degree'. There is no "everybody does it" excuse. If "everybody does it" then why make rules? And even if that warped logic was true (some actually do play by rules designed for fair play), just because everybody does it, does that make it right?

Cheating is cheating. Period.

Name one other team in NFL history who was caught blatantly, undeniably, unquestionably cheating - after being told what they were doing was against NFL rules yet they did it anyway.

To each their own opinion, but as for me, I have zero respect for any team, dynasty or individual who is caught blantantly cheating.

Call me crazy but I do believe they play the American national anthem before every professional sporting event in America. I do believe that flag represents truth, justice and the American way. It's supposed to show the world we are Americans and we have American values.

If that way - and those values - means cheating, taking steroids or doping to be successful, think of how the rest of the world views America.

Kind of ironic that a team with the name "Patriots", a symbol of freedom, hard work and sacrifice for American values would be the ones caught cheating.

 

[primetime]

It's funny to see people defending the Patriots over Spygate. It's even funnier watching Bill Belicheat trying to explain why he was in fact cheating. Dammit, they were caught. They cheated. Whether they like it or not, the Patriot dynasty will always be called into question.

Listening to Bill Belicheat talk about Matt Walsh is laughable. That total ass clown still hasn't explained exactly WHY he was taping opposing teams signals. He says he "misinterpreted" the rules. This guy is a joke.

The NFL is covering up something. It's painfully obvious....

 

[RobAce]

Rob you kinda help out what Ive been saying a little, this has been going on since 2000, why haven't the Patriots had better records and a few more Super Bowl titles? Three championships in four years and they've been filming all this time?

Film can help, but it only gets you so far. Sometimes players make an unexpected cut, an audible at the line, or the film you had was before an QB injury or other injury that made the team change its game plan.
Also you still have to have the players to compete.
I have never said the Pats were not a good or even great team. I have only said they knowingly and willingly violated a league rule. One that would give them an advantage. Not a certain win, just an advantage.

Either somebody didnt do there job right or how about this logic...The Patriots are a really good team.

They are a good team. A good team that got caught cheating or if anyone does not like that word, they got caught violating league rules.
Everything still is not known on how they applied the knowledge they had and how far it went. I do not know if we will ever find out, but I have a feeling we will. Until then all I can say are the facts.

Rob

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

To no suprise here, I am a Cowboys fan, but I also have a huge amount of respect for what the Patriots have done by winning 3 of 4 super bowls, but all this talk about how the Patriots were "cheating" and that there dynasty as well as there integrity should be question is totally ridiclous.

First the plain fact is this, if the Patriots were video taping walk throughs, and even if they tape the Rams before the Super Bowl, they still have to go out and excute, if they know it's Marshall Faulk to the left, or Kurt Warner on a roll out to Torry Holt, the defense still has to stop them or if Warner knew something was up, he could call an audible at the line.

Second of all (and this is what really gets me) is the fact that Sen. Arlen Spector, a rep from Pennsylvania (home state of the Steelers and Eagles who both lost to the Patriots) wants a independent investigation into this, not to mention that this whole thing started with the supossed "Man-genius" Eric Magini the head coach of the Jets who got his ass handed to him in week one by the Patriots.

Just kinda funny to me that the ones who lost are crying foul.

Would you like the team that won to cry foul???

 

[makemlaugh2003]

I'm not saying it's right, just saying it happens...

Now, look. Even though I'm from New England, even I'LL admit that the Pats were in the wrong. It goes over the line to try to tape and steal signals, sure. It's not real ethical, and it especially bites if ya get caught. But let's not lose sight of one fundamental, basic rule of American life: THERE IS WAY, WAY TOO MUCH MONEY SUNK INTO PROFESSIONAL SPORTS FOR THERE NOT TO BE CHEATING. I mean, c'mon, people! NASCAR vehicles break regs every race, baseball players take in 'roids and HGH's the way I suck down Yoo-Hoos, the NBA's turning into a league of less-than-subtle cheap shots, goon tactics and flops worthy of Oscar nominations, even RACE HORSES are sometimes suped up with performance enhancers. It's not even just the HUMANS anymore. And yet everyone acts shocked...SHOCKED!!!...to find out that the Patriots violated league rules...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER TEAM DOES. Only difference: the Pats got caught.
Can't we just stop all the appalled gasping and blame throwing? I mean, yes, they did wrong, and yes, they were punished, but did they win three Super Bowls in four years (which MY guys did first, but that's a separate point altogether) BECAUSE they cheated? Baloney! Like the Rams, Panthers and Eagles, respectively, all played completely by all the rules, all the time, those seasons themselves? Please. The Patriots aren't the only rule-benders, they're the only rule-benders THAT GOT CAUGHT. For now. You STILL have to go out on the field and PLAY THE GAME. Did the Patriots gain advantages, unfair ones, in some games? Sure. But this is one thing I know about New England Patriot team history: in their first ever Super Bowl appearance (in which they were handed a 46-10 pasting by Da Bears), would KNOWING The Fridge was gonna get the ball on the one yard line have actually HELPED them bring that colossus of beer and chicken wings down? Like they didn't know he was gonna get the ball ANYHOW? I mean, seriously. Let's just accept this as an unfortunate fact of American sports and move on with our lives. You don't go stripping teams of Super Bowl victories and go making huge men hock their rings over something like this. EVERYBODY DOES IT. Doesn't make it right, just means that no one's holier than thou, not when it comes to literally billions of dollars in salaries, wagers, advertising, media revenue, merchandising etc. etc. etc. etc. and so on ad infinitum.
So please, people, seriously, stop acting so shocked...SHOCKED!!!...that a professional sports franchise responsible for billions and ultraquadzillions of bucks flowing through practically every danged place played a little unfairly! Sheesh! HOW long ago did that little disillusioned kid from back when there wasn't even any TV implore The Great Shoeless One, "Say it ain't so, Joe!"? We can't STILL be shocked by all this, can we, so many, many decades later? It's time to take off the rose-colored specs, evacuate Disneyland, and realize that sports teams, much like bar chicks the morning after when the beer buzz has long since worn off, aren't all pretty. If we REALLY want to attack sports atrocities, let's make sure that Tony Romo never, EVER sings again. Like, ever. Seriously. Chuck the pill, can do. Hit a note, ANY note? No siree. Peace out, and go 'Boys.

 

[primetime]

It is funny listening/watching/reading Patriot fans defending their team. It always seem to be the same thing. "Everyone cheats, but we got caught". Here's the problem with that argument, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Patriots.

Ever since the Patriots got away with "The fumble" (we all know Brady fumbled against the Raiders. I HATE the Raiders, but they got robbed), they have painted themselves as "America's Team". The Red/white/blue. They came up with the "team concept" with running out into the SuperBowl as one team. We have listened ad naseum about the Patriots saying "we are a team" and "humble pie". They created this illusion of being a wholesome team because they didn't have any "superstars" (except Brady) and they could basically plug anyone into their system because they played like a team. Forget the fact that no one else can play like a team, only the Patriots.

Bill Belichick appeared to be a "genius", despite the fact he was a failure while being the Head Coach of the Cleveland Browns. He could prepare like no other coach. He was a "humble" unassuming man and he was the leader of the "wholesome, team first, we are all humble" Patriots.

What happens? The Patriots get caught cheating. The sad thing is, they were WARNED by the NFL to NOT tape signals and they STILL did it. They were "ratted" out by a FORMER Patriots coach, Eric Mangini. Here's something funny. If everyone cheats, how come the Patriots didn't say the Jets cheated as well? No proof? That's because chances are, they weren't taping. How's that?

As last season rolled along, you started to see cracks in the Patriot aura of "wholesomeness". Belichick ran up scores against teams. Belichick never really addressed WHY he was taping opposing coaches' signals, just he "misinterpreted" the rules. How the fuck can you misinterpret "DON'T TAPE SIGNALS FROM OTHER TEAMS"? For a genius, he sure is stupid. I mean come on, why else would the Patriots steal signals if it didn't give them an advantage? Were they taping opposing coaches because they liked the way they looked? No. They wanted an unfair advantage. Notice Belichick has never really expained himself. He is a very arrogant man and that's why it was sweet to watch his punk ass lose the SuperBowl. All this talk about "humble pie" and that 2007 Patriot team was very arrogant. Look at Rodney Harrison. Yeah, he's humble...

Bottom line is this Patriot fans. You are trying to avoid the fact that this "wholesome" team is now viewed as cheaters. Had the Raiders got caught, no one would care because we probably would expect it from the Raiders. But the "humble" Patriots? The team that has won 3 SuperBowls in 4 years? Your only retort is "everyone else is doing it." We are not talking about anyone else, we are talking about the Patriots.

It kills me watching Bill Belicheat talk about Mike Walsh. He makes it seem like Walsh has no real connection to the Patriots coaching staff, yet Walsh has tapes of their wrongdoing. It kills me that Roger Goodell is trying to sweep this under the rug. The tapes provided to Goodell from Walsh are NOT the same tapes he received from the Patriots. Goodell even said if he found more evidence of cheating, he would penalize the Patriots. Well dammit, there was evidence of them taping WAY back to 2000, with NEW TAPES he hasn't seen before and he says "There's no new evidence." This is called cover-up. Again, had this been the Raiders and Al Davis, Goodell would have come down like an ax through an apple trying to punish the Raiders. But because it's the "humble" Patriots, he's covering it up. I hope their is an independent investigation and the Patriots get their just desserts.

The "humble" description of the Patriots is a farce. They are without a doubt a very arrogant bunch. Just review the 2007 season.......

 

[makemlaugh2003]

Again, to repeat what I actually DID say...

I never said the Patriots were wholesome or humble or even "America's team." In fact, I distinctly recall saying that NO ONE was "holier than thou" and that EVERYONE cheats. And in regards to the infamous Patriots-Jets debacle in which the Patriots were caught stealing signals, you can't tell me that the Jets definitely weren't cheating too. It's likely the case that the Jets are FAR better at cheating than they are at actually playing. As I ALSO mentioned, all the cheating in the world doesn't help if you trot eleven stiffs at a time onto the gridiron. The Patriots cheated, yes, and the ONLY difference between them and EVERY OTHER PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ORGANIZATION is that THEY GOT CAUGHT. So NO ONE'S defending what New England did, merely extolling the unavoidable fact that NO SPORTS TEAM IN AMERICA is truly defensible. Period. That was my argument from the beginning and, incidentally, the DALLAS COWBOYS are STILL "America's Team," no matter HOW much longer it takes them to win another playoff game. So there ya go on that front too.

 

[primetime]

To say "everyone cheats" is a cop-out. No one knows for SURE that EVERYONE cheats. If they did, then the Miami Dolphins wouldn't have gone 1-15. If the Dolphins knew signals, then they would have a lot better than 1-15.

What people are upset about is the simple fact that Bill Belichick blatantly cheated. He was told not to do what he was doing and he still did it. You may have not said the Patriots were wholesome, but that was their image during their Super Bowl runs. During the 2007, every week we were told by Patriot players that they were humble. For years we always heard that the Patriots were a true "team". Now, whether they like it or not, they cheated and their image is ruined. There were a lot of people who couldn't wait to see the Patriots lose the Super Bowl and NOT go undefeated.

Let's say it was Green Bay that was undefeated. There would have been a groundswell to see Favre leave on top. Because Belicheat is an asshole, the team cheated and they ran up scores on teams, people stated to hate the Patriots. People booed a little girl because she wore a Patriot jersey. Because Belicheat thinks he is above others, he now is cast the role as the "devil" and his team are a bunch of villians as well.

Besides, is there any proof that EVERYONE is cheating? Stop using that as an excuse for the Patriots' evils.....

 

[makemlaugh2003]

Okay, I'm gonna try this one more time...

AND I'll break it down into easy-to-follow steps in the bargain:

1) The fact that everybody cheats does NOT make what the Patriots did okay. The fact that everybody cheats means that everybody cheats
2) The Dolphins could've pretty much had the opponents PLAYBOOK every game and STILL wouldn't have finished .500. I mean, there's a HUGE difference between cheating with Tom Brady under center rather than Cleo Lemon. Of course, having said that, cheating DOES NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING. A great team still has to perform on the field, whatever advantage they have over the opponent regardless. It doesn't matter if you know the opponent's defense if you can't complete a pass. It's irrelevant that you take 'roids if you can't hit the ball. It's a moot point that you're twelve times better a boxer than your opponent if you're paid to take a dive. But a bad team that cheats is still likely to be pretty bad, and, honestly, the Dolphins finishing 2-14 rather than 1-15 would have accomplished what, exactly, anyway?
3) "Evils"? PUH-LEASE. So we oughta just get the firing squad out and blow all the Patriots away? "Bill Bellicheat"? Let's not make this an argument of absurdities. This is what to take from this: PROOF is not necessary to deduce that professional sports teams in America cheat! There's WAY TOO MUCH MONEY INVOLVED, and greenbacks make the world spin. Always have, always will. No one's saying cheating is right, at least I'm not. I'm saying that cheating, much like excrement, HAPPENS. And THEY ALL DO IT. Doesn't make it right, just makes it actual, which I said from the very beginning and evidently may have to repeat until I'm kinda purplish in the puss. People need to DROP THIS AND MOVE ON. There are FAR worse things...ACTUAL "evils"...poisoning the world of sports. Young female gymnasts getting molested by their "coaches;" eighteen year old MLB-wannabes goosing up on 'roids and ruining their bodies, even ending their lives; people with "inside information" like referees and the like compromising basketball, tennis and other sports for financial gain; those types of things. 4) Let's stop pretending that ONLY the Patriots cheat (which is pure rubbish) OR that they ONLY won those three Super Bowls BECAUSE they cheated (which is equally preposterous). For crying out loud, a lot of NASCAR wags I have to tolerate listening to used to squawl the same things about Jeff Gordon. "Oh, he cheats, he cheats, waaaa waaaa waaaa, he's just so UNFAIR." WELL, THEY ALL ARE. He just was a more talented driver for years, and possibly even a better cheater. THEY ALL CHEAT. Period. Anyone who refutes this point is living A) under some really large boulder, B) in Disneyworld, or C) both. And, finally, it doesn't make what the Patriots did right by any means, but it's a simple, unavoidable fact of American professional sports life. It's time to move onto real issues, sports-related and otherwise. "Evils"...oy!

 

[primetime]

Oh give me a break. That's why Patriot fans crack me up. They have the same argument everytime. "Oh, we don't condone the cheating and what we did was wrong, but everyone cheats so let's get past this." Not that simple.

It is necessary for the Patriots to get their "punishment". Just because you claim everyone cheats, doesn't mean they do. Let's be real. If this was the Raiders, everyone would be up in arms trying to punish them. Why? Because of the past evils Al Davis has done to the NFL. The Patriots deserve punishment. Whether they like it or not, their legacy is tarnished. Now, you keep claiming that the cheating doesn't help them win as they still have to execute on the field. Then answer this question please. WHY do they need to cheat when they can just perform on the field and win anyway? Same thing with the Dolphins. What would be the point of cheating if you're going to lose anyway? Cheating would only enhance your team. In football, if you know what the defense is going to do, it is a hell of a lot easier to execute the play because you know exactly what the other team is doing.

I'm tired of hearing this crap of "well, they still have to perform on the field." Dammit, common sense tells you that if you know the other team's playbook, it is a hell of a lot easier to "execute". Do you play chess? If you do, wouldn't it be a lot easier for you to strategize and defeat your opponent if you knew exactly the moves they were going to make before they actually made them? That's what the Patriots were doing. They lied when they said they videotaped a few games and they turned it over to Goodell. Turns out that they are still lying because Mike Walsh turned in tapes that the Patriots didn't hand over. Those tapes go back to 2000 when Belichick was hired. Looks like he isn't a genius after all.

The argument "everyone cheats" is a cop out and doesn't hide the fact that the Patriots are not this humble team, but they are in fact a very arrogant and deceitful organization. That goes from Bob Kraft to the video assistants.

 

[P[a]pi]

I've heard a lot of people on FSR (Fox Sports Radio) say that this is football's version of baseball's steroids problem, but they all say that steroids in baseball is much worse.

I totally disagree. If Barry Bond's didn't break the home run record, nobody would give a shit that he took steroids. If the Pats didn't win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years nobody would give a shit that they cheated.

Now, which is more important? One guy breaking one record or an entire team stopping other entire teams from winning Super Bowls?

Kurt Warner (and everybody else on that Rams team) should have won 2 rings in 3 years. They only got one ring cus the Pats cheated. That Rams team was awesome and that Pats team was average.

Peyton Manning and his team should have 2 rings instead of 1 as well.

The Eagles and the Panthers should each have a ring too.

Hell, if the Pats didn't cheat who knows if they would have even made it to 3 Super Bowls.

The whole time the Pats were winning rings everybody was saying, "They are just an average team, how do they do it, they don't have star receivers or a star running back, they're linebackers are old, all they got is an alright QB and a clutch field goal kicker, how are they dominating?"

Well, now we know how.

Just compare the roster of the Pats dynasty to the roster of other dynasties and mini-dynasties (Broncos and Rams). The Pats personel doesn't match their accomplishments.

 

[primetime]

Good point Papi, good point. For years, the Patriots had this "we win because we are a team" hype about them. They were winning because they executed better than everyone else, despite the fact that other teams had better personnel. That may be true in a sense as football requires a tremendous amount of execution, BUT, their execution was enhanced from knowing what the other team was going to do.

It is a lot easier to execute and perform well if you know your opponent's move.

Why should we get past this anyway? If there is a problem with this cheating and "everyone does it", then it needs to be stopped because it hurts the integrity of the game. The Patriots should be made an example that you can't expect to cheat and get away with it. It shouldn't be disregarded just because "everyone does it". A team that won 3 Superbowls in 4 years shouldn't get a pass because they were caught cheating.... I wish Patriot fans would realize this and should be aware that it SHOULD NOT GO AWAY.

 

[Heeko]

I wonder how those same Patriots fans would feel if it were discovered today the New York Giants had illegal tapes of the offensive and defensive signals of the Patriots prior to the Super Bowl ?