scissorman said:
DISCLAIMER: I am not suicidal, and I don't agree with it. I just want your thoughts.
A friend told me something tonight, I thought it was interesting. He said, "If someone is hurting so bad that they want to end thier life, shouldn't we respect that decision? Isn't that something that really isn't any of our buisness? If you were planning on killing yourself, wouldn't you want everyone to stay out of it?" .. At first, I was appalled.
Now that I have given it more thought, it kind of makes sense. Your life is yours, your right is yours.
Is that a wrong point of view?
Opinions are opinions and some may reflect fact better than others. Language, however, is loaded... "Right" and "wrong" speaks not only of correct versus erroneous assumptions, but also of value judgements. Here, dealing in values, I don't like dividing things into "right" and "wrong" points of view. Some actions, however, are more effective in achieving certain results.
Anyway, to the meat of the matter:
1.) Is your friend trying to tell you something obliquely? I don't know in what context this comment came up, but weigh it heavily. There can be signs of suicidal ideation (and there can be situations where there are no signs), and this, depending on context, could be a cue. Pay attention and use your best judgement.
2.) I'm fairly libertarian in my views on rights -- that a person is entitled to do with themselves what they will, provided it does not infringe on the rights of others. This still leaves something of a conflict, however, as suicide fails to be self-contained. Most everyone is connected to someone else in some way. The suicide of a loved one can take a toll on the mental, emotional, social, and by result, physical health of a person.
At the same time, it does so as only one of the blacker shades of gray of our experience. Practically everything you do, positive or negative, impacts people in some way (and oft, not as one intended). If one were to become fully aware of the degree to which these effects extend, I imagine the world would be a lot more compassionate and careful place, even after realizing that positive intentions and actions do not always yield positive results -- for the propensity for them to do so seems at least possibly increased by effort, moderation and careful deliberation.
3.) On the use of labels for the act:
A.) "Weakness": Yes, it is a form of weakness in the evolutionary sense. Anything that decreases ones chances for survival is seen as a weakness by definition. It is "survival of the fittest", after all, and those possessing suicidal ideation and tendencies may be relegated to the status of "unfit" or "weak".
"Weak", however, is a loaded term that, when seems to generalize to a great many features of character, when in fact, to the person in question, it may only realistically apply in the evolutionary sense. This is why I oppose use of the term without a clarification of its use.
It seems to me people generally use such terms with derogatory meanings (when broadbrushed as they almost always are) because doing so naturally condemns the act or the idea -- the action of condemnation of a self-destructive act is naturally thought to deter the act, and so, evolved as another means preservation on a species-wide level (assuming societal condemnation actually works as a deterrent, which remains debatable)...
The same thing with labeling the act as "selfish". Yes, it's selfish. But so are several dozen other things you do everyday. Shall we mark the human species as selfish on its face and be done with it, then? You buy a candy bar for yourself, because you like the taste. You flirt with a girl because you like the company and pleasures of women. You purchase a fashionable new shirt or blouse you like for the sake of your vanity -- which in turn may make you more attractive, and may further enable you to make time with that girl with whom you were flirting, and so on... Without allowing this to dissolve into the classical and unending debate over whether altruism is indeed possible, I think it would be fair to say that ones decisions are commonly effected, if not in some cases, ruled, by "selfishness".
Well, "How do these things effect others?", you wonder -- certainly not like suicide... No, not as deeply, of course, but everything's connected. Your purchases (which no one has the time to thoroughly investigate for each item they buy in a given week) impact the people they are bought from, and the people from whom they are not bought -- from providers of raw resources to refiners and manufacturers and retailers... It all has an impact. Just general human interaction has impacts -- on the girl you flirt with and the girl standing by and watching, wishing you'd pick up the same way with her... Whatever you do and do not do is in one way or another a double-edged sword... One only hopes that one can work toward the positive outweighing the negative.
I don't think that suicide is an any more inherently "selfish" an act than most other things. I can only imagine that those who seriously contemplate the matter (and those who are not suffering from rather unusual mental illness, I would wager, at least give the repercussions some thought) take into consideration its potential impacts moreso than the ordinary Joe flirting with the cute barrista, while unintentionally ignoring the nice girl bussing tables. It's not that I'm trying to equate the two by any stretch, mind you -- I'm only continuing the line of thought that anything we do has repercussions -- some we are aware of, and some we are not, some positive and some negative. I don't therefore consider it more "selfish" in the derogatory sense, though it and its repercussions are naturally more intense and more
personal given the extremity of the act.
Again the use of these terms -- "selfish", "weak" -- in my opinion arise not because it is an accurate description, so much as offering such deterrence is an evolutionary response hoping to sway the species toward some semblance of greater fitness. Ironically, if it is only societal disdain (peer pressure and guilt, essentially) for such an act that prevents its completion, the trait toward suicidality continues to be passed on, making future generations more susceptible to suicidal ideations, attempts and acts. But then, that's not unlike our race against nature to create better and better antibiotics to fight stronger and stronger bugs. Ultimately, we always lose to nature for the sake of balance. The question is whether you want your deaths gradually, or all at once in the face of a super-bug we helped evolve, or in the instance of suicide, whether you want to weaken future generations by prohibiting the current ones from acting on their will, and thus enabling them greater chance to pass on their traits.
4.) Having had my best friend commit suicide gives me something of a unique and biased point of view on the matter. I reject the derogatory connotations of the labels "selfish" and "weak" because I knew the man, and neither term would fit him, nor would most any other negative label. He was the most decent, unselfish, intelligent and thoughtful human being I've ever known, and while I deeply miss his company, and I have reaped some of the less fortunate repercussions of his decision, I honor a sane person's right to do with their life as they choose. I know some would argue the fundamental sanity of a person choosing to end their life, but I believe such situations are possible, and can and do happen.
Better still, I feel I know why derogatory labelling of the act arises, and understand why some would use it, and don't hold them or their actions as "wrong" or "bad", even if in their labelling, it would seem to besmirch my friend, etc. Just like everyone else, they're just trying to get along like everyone else, preserve themselves, preserve the species, live life and impart the wisdom they believe they possess as best they can.
This said, I believe the vast majority of suicides are preventable, and the result of temporary chemical or emotional problems that can be addressed and managed.
5.) Finally, not that logic has anything to do with emotion, but being an agnostic leaning hard toward atheism, I think it not in my best interests to ever commit suicide, as in my system of belief, it would constitute the end of experience, and experience I like -- good, bad, indifferent. It's good to feel.
Were I a theist, however, I would have equal aversion to suicide, as I would perceive life as a gift, and not just something happened into, and sending the gift back to an omnipotent force would seem awful insulting. And insulting omnipotence I cannot imagine bodes well for one.
Anyway, that's my thoughts for the evening on that, so...
FIN
