sweet goth girl ..2!

[kingmidrif]

!!! oooooo.k it seems as if this thread has gotten a little out of hand and exeptionaly text heavy. i really dont know where to start?!
ok, it seems as if this whole argument is just based on vairying opinions facing off against one another, which cant be resolved as every ones opinion is different and rightly so.
to those who like my work thanks a lot, much appriciated, i remember some one saying that they loved the character and wanted more, and shes my only tickle related character at the mo so of course i'll be doing more of her. so keep posted. thanks to cheshire cat and fairfeather too, its nice to see people sticking up for me.🙂
to the difficult part where i try to remain calm even with multiple veins potruding from my fore head and a twich in my eye. obviously i disagree with celtics view wholeheartedly. when i created that picture every part is as i wanted and to follow celtics ideas would make the picture like a piece of celtics work rather than my own. this is my style and plenty like it the way it is, form,colour,style,shape,composition in the end are only tools/vairiations for the artist, it doesnt matter (just look at surealism cubism or abstraction), what counts is the soul of the picture, and i belive my picture has soul at least for me (which is enough) and that why i like it.
i found your remarks hurtful to an extent,angering and not useful at all.your just describing how you would draw it and what you dislike about it. i have been to many crits through out my collage/university/work career, most on a half yearly basis, and this is no crit. i also dislike the way youve made it as if any one who does choose to like my work is somehow wrong, i do not like those who force their opinions onto others. im sure you didnt mean to imply any of this but its still the way youve made me feel.😡
it does put me off drawring here as it would any artist. i do not need a coach/teacher/master telling me how to draw my art, that is for me and me alone to decide. there is no right or wrong way to do art there is only opinion.
im drawring a line down the tmf ala i love lucy you stick to your threads ill stick to mine. this should avoid any more offence.
, i would not have belived that the tmf was so hostile ,you are now in my miffed book of people im unhappy with and its a tough book to get out of. id apriciate it if we could all move on and put this mess behind us now.
😀

 

[laughinggaszone]

kingmidrif,

We definately liked your piece. If your interested in doing some work for us, drop us a line.

[email protected]

As far as this thread and celticemporer...

Yes, CE has the right to criticise. No arguement there.
Constructive criticism is equally as important as ego
stroking praise. In many cases it's more important. That said,

Really CE, you need to get off your high horse. We joined your
yahoo group, just to see what the hubub was all about. After seeing your work, quite frankly, it is perfectly fine, but it's also mediocre skill.

We went back and read some of your other posts in the forum and they all tend to have the same tone...arrogant and with an over inflated sense of your own ability. We even read a thread where you actually stated your skill was on par to a female professional artist who critiqued your own work. You ranted something about using references and how you didn't need them and she did. As if that is a good thing. In addition, you didn't exactly take her critique very well. Something to consider when giving them out.

Bottom line, be nice. Your in the bottom 1/3 of artist talent in this forum. And that it is not an opinion. It's a fact. We don't judge on style or creativity, but on artistic skill and training. Your not last but your hardly good enough to lord it over other artists. Your attitude is the primary reason other artists have a problem with you
and is certainly the reason we wouldn't hire you.

to paraphrase a bible passage:

"let he who is without artistic imperfections cast the first stone"

LGZ

 

[Kalamos]

We are forgetting about the whole point of this forum.

This is an adult forum - people come here for the contents and maybe the company.

My attempt at being fair and un-biased was pathetic at best, from what I could gather from the reactions.

Once again a thread has turned sour about trivial matters of art, composition and technique.

I can understand Kingmidrif's point. I would resent any harsh comment on my art - especially unsolicited unforgiving criticism.

I can't really fathom why DJ even started it. I could see it coming from miles away - I mean Laughinggas's post.

It was a matter of time before someone who was in the business would say something personal.

And now, DJ, you won't be sure if they criticize your art, or your attitude. Never, ever.

I don't care much about flames, really. I have little sense of community, or anything like that.
If some mod ever banned me for whatever reason, I'd shrug. Maybe I'd create another account, and keep a lower profile.

Can you, DJ? You cherish attentions. What if they chose to ban you or censor your posts?

No, don't answer. I'm a bit weary from my day - and I can bear to read so much without getting bored over it.

Since my mood turned sour as well, I can only say this: "appreciated".

If I really have to read a novel, at least be sure to spell check it.


Reg's.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

It was just my opinion, and the suggestions I gave were not what I would have done, but something I felt was general enough and unbias to a point where offering them up as suggestions were innocent enough. Critiques are critiques, and of course now you feel the way you do after reading it. What I said wasn't that bad, but the emotion put into it by others has now made it more than it was- just some words.

If you can't accept them no matter where you are then its something you have to deal with. You are going to be criticized all through your life, theres no escaping it.

I don't feel I've crossed a line so much as I said something that struck a nerve. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but whether this is the way you want your art or not I still have a right to say what I wish. I'm not out to bash you, and I found your previous piece better than this one. If I had been displeased with both or any of your work I wouldn't have responded to it. The fact I've taken the time to post about it and that I've taken this risk shows I'm interested but might not always agree.

I would have easily defended you just as I would have easily critiqued, if the situation were reversed and it was someone else who was critiquing you. I'm not going to apologize just yet however for speaking my mind. I honesty see no wrong doing in giving a simple critique. I could have handled it much worse if I had wanted to. The fact that I was specific probably set you off. If I had simply said I didn't the like the picture, no one probably would have said anything about it.

That was a risk I was willing to take, and I'm no worse off for it dispite the sudden turn-around brought about by your post.

I would only hope this honest critique doesn't sour your tastes for critiquing in general. If you can respect their critiquing in those forms, then theres no reason not to accept mine. I think it would be immature to accept only the critiques that are favorable and rub you the right way.

We're not here to stroke egos, we're here to give an honest opinion of work. The fact its fetish, free or whatever doesn't matter. People are naturally going to have an opinion, and it can and often does conflict with what other people think. Its a shame, but thats the way it is.

@ LGZ- All you've done is is took advantage of a situation and capitalized on it, both for your business and to render a cheap shot to which I could argue but won't. The little sketches you see are just that, sketches of mine. I assure you I'm far better than you give me credit for.

I do agree with the first part of your post however-

"Yes, CE has the right to criticise. No arguement there.
Constructive criticism is equally as important as ego
stroking praise. In many cases it's more important."

Thats all that has taken place here. Its been made more about me than the critique itself which was honest and wasn't used to belittle him. Its always 50/50 that an artist will be hurt by something someone says. Those aren't good odds, but its hardly a reason to remain silent. I don't feel I crossed a line in the critique itself or in my handling of the situation after.

@ Kalamos- Change SNs? What for? I didn't run away from the slaanesh situation, I didn't run away from the masturbation thread, and I'm not going to run away from something simple like this. I'm not a coward. Had I stormed in here and told kingmidrif what he MUST do then that would have been different. No, rather, I offered an alternative opinion and gave what I thought were GENERAL pointers(not personalized ones). There was no way for me to know whether he would take them in good faith or would take this path instead. Now that I know how he feels about it, I know not to handle it this way again with him.

Its trial and error.

The only real problem here was CC in making a big deal of it. I think that perhaps had he not said anything and just posted regularly that no one else would have followed suit. And if anyone else says they would have, well, this is after the fact, so theres no way of proving that. My point is CC was the caticlyst which set what could have been a good situation into something that was made to look like a personal attack. But thats neither here nor there any more, and it didn't surprize me one bit.

If I had not been the only one this sure as hell would have been more favorable for me, and you all know it. This was just another numbers game, and that always wins by some default. What was it...like 5 on 1? I think I handled myself pretty well. I didn't get personal and I didn't get enraged. In fact, I'm probably more composed than any single person that took part in this thread. And no, thats not just because my feelings weren't hurt.

One thing is sure though, I'm certainly not going to jump/skip town and run because theres a proposed lynch mob waiting for me. Theres really nothing you can do to me and there shouldn't be anything you want to do to me. For heaven's sake, I said something without malice and spite to an artist I actually like. Just because it wasn't what he wanted to hear or what you all wanted to hear doesn't make it wrong. It could have been worse, and there are far worse people and far worse and nasty opinions than the ones I gave. Compared to the real art world, I'm an angel. I think some people here need some of that perspective.

If you MUST 🙄 see me as some sort of evil here, then I'm most certainly one of those necessary evils we all hear about which brings balance and doesn't cling to complacency for the sake of maintaining an illusion. I'm your dose of reality. Given in small ammounts I'm harmless and otherwise benign, much like I am in typing this. This thread and my activity in it was just a small ammount. If you are all concerned that it would go beyond this you're all wrong.

I know my limits, both the ones I've set for myself and the ones of the forum. The truth that no one can deny here is that there was no wrong doing here TECHNICALLY. I am sorry that I hurt his feelings however. I did apologize in advance for that basically, so I don't feel bad about it now.

I'm standing by that, because I know that at least is right and true.

 

[laughinggaszone]

CE...

We are not going to do a back and forth with you on this thread.
For one thing, you're too long winded. However, at least one
of your comments bears a response. Simply because we noticed you've made it in other threads as a defense to criticism of your work.

...little sketches you see are just that, sketches of mine. I assure you I'm far better than you give me credit for.

An artists should strive to show his or her best work...not their doodles. Apparently, your best work is under lock and key because
all your willing to show are you "sketches". Start showing us your
"better" work and we'll be happy to give you proper credit. Until then, stop laying into those artists that are not only more skilled than you but better mannered.
LGZ

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

And you sure did bite, didn't you? 🙂

I said that to prove a point here- that this is out of control.

See? You and others are willing to single out aspects of myself which have nothing to do with this topic. I said that to test you and prove my point that this situation is only as dire or bad as you have all made it to be. Yes, I may have said something that turned out to be unsettling, but you are all collectively making it worse and bigger than it was originally. All I'm doing is now defending myself, something I never have a problem with.

But to answer the question I intended for you to ask or point out- yes, I do keep my best works under lock and key. And in having you say that it proves another point which was previously argued against and has now been revealed as a double-standard by you.

And that is simply this- People have been saying up until this point that an artist can and should just post what they can do and that not all artists post to become better. My whole point is that is a falsehood. Whether we start off with stick figures or not, we all start somewhere and we all have goals we want to reach with our art. Its been said here that he's comfortable with where he is, but the very nature of an artist is to take in as much as one can and apply it. Artists are restless by nature and any one of them who displays signs of contentment or of being completely satisfied with their work is decieving others and themselves whether intentionally or unintentionally. We ALL want to become better regardless of the medium. Its just human nature. We see something and we want to perfect it.

My point? You have created a double standard for me. Its ok for him not to progress and get better, but I must if I want to be able to critique. Critiquing isn't a prerequsite, nor is it a priveledge, it is a right so much so as an opinion is. I should therefore not be handicapped for giving my opinion of any given piece at any given time. Unless the artist takes an "I don't want any comments at all" stance to begin with, theres no reason for us to just look at the picture and not even think about it. And if the artist is going to be that way, they are defeating the whole purpose of sharing their work to begin with. Just looking and then moving on really downplays art. An experience is shared, good or bad, when the artist is engaged in coversation. In one way or another things are cleared. I can't say that for this thread because of all of you. You are just as persistant to shoot me down for doing something innocent as I am to defend myself.

Why don't you go strap yourself in and give yourself some laughing gas? Someone around here needs to start laughing. Its getting a bit thick, no?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Lets face it people, we know how this is going to end:

1.) A mod or several mods or the admin himself is going to involved.

2.) This person is going to tell us all that we need to stop this right now, this needs to get back on track immediately, and that we ought to get along or at least try to for the sake of the thread. If this person is unbias and is playing it by the book, then we will all get some sort of a repremand/'cooling off period' or some such. Because lets face it, nothing that has been said here needs a perminent solution (if you want to calling banning a solution).

3.) This person is going to give us their personal opinion.

4.) This person is going to edit or delete some or all of the posts up until CC's post,

and/or

5.) This person is going to close the thread or possibly delete it.


So I guess what I'm saying is all you've put into this was for nothing. Maybe you'll restrain yourselves from lunging at me next time I say something or if ever I say something again that you don't care for. You all need to chill more than I do. I realize we probably all have stressful lives, but barking up my tree and using me as an outlet because I'm the only one there seems to be here isn't the answer. If I truely incite rage and anger in some of you, you need some anger management. Like Adam Sandler in "Anger Managment" (with the famous Jack Nicholson).

"Dave, there are two types of people, explosive and implosive. The explosive person is the one who yells and argues with the cashier for not accepting their coupons. The implosive person is the cashier, who remains quiet day by day and then someday brings a gun to work and shoots everyone in the store. You're the cashier."- Buddy

"No...I'm the stockboy in the frozen food section calling the police, I swear!"- Dave

 

[Kalamos]

If you MUST 🙄 see me as some sort of evil here, then I'm most certainly one of those necessary evils we all hear about which brings balance and doesn't cling to complacency for the sake of maintaining an illusion. I'm your dose of reality. Given in small ammounts I'm harmless and otherwise benign, much like I am in typing this.[/B]

That's the catch: small quantity.

I don't see you as evil. I don't see you at all.

I just find all this nonsense boring.

...

Oh, and I don't know about the others, but I am not paying my ISP for your reality-in-a-pill treatment.

I get all reality I need and can handle outside.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Oh, and I don't know about the others, but I am not paying my ISP for your reality-in-a-pill treatment.

I get all reality I need and can handle outside.

You have just proven a point I made at the end of my last post. Coincidentally, you brought it up out of frustration, but it still applies.

 

[Kalamos]

Have you been in my mind, lately?

Doubt so.

So, if you see frustration, you only see yourself.

I can't understand your point. I don't really care about it.

I think you have too much time to spare.

If you think making a desert around you will make you only better, well, good luck.

You lost Kingmidrif's respect. You had none from Cheshire to begin with.
Laughinggas was quite clear in this regard too.

Want to lose mine too?

 

[His Divine Shadow]

*Sigh* Nevermind what I said. I don't care any more. You all (And sorry if I sort of singled out K and CE there, as others are participating. I didn't think before typing.) do whatever you want. I have no place intruding in this discussion.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ Kalamos- Please don't threaten me. Its not scaring me and its not going to work.

If anyone else just decides to jump on the wagon with this small number of people (since unspoken people don't concern me or count) then that only goes to show I've been right in what I've been saying for the later half of this thread.

You people just take things too much to heart. You see things in such a limited point of view. You see only what you want to and what will preserve the status quo. Surely people with my attitude on the matter are a threat to your structure or way of thinking in one way or another when bouts like this come about.

But realize that I am surely not the enemy. The enemy lies within the self here. You are an exclusive lot who won't take no for an answer and would obviously fight to the death with a person you cannot even see.

Not one of you yet has to make this about the critique rather than myself. I am your only ammunition, and why should you want any? Using the past gets old and accepting what people say while disgreeing with it seems all but impossible for some of you.

There were and are certain better ways you all could have dealt with this. Heres one-

You could have said something like "I don't agree with your opinion because (insert reasons here), perhaps you should rethink what you have said."

If I was approached that way about it, like I should have been this wouldn't be a problem. The whole point in this is to critique my critique and add to it, take away from it, agree or disagree with it, and post your own. Its not supposed to be any of you attacking me for posting my opinion.

There needs to be control and self-restraint here, and there obviously is none. You might say I need to restrain myself, but that was my opinion. It was totally unlike what you have all done now.

It has been turned from a critique, upside down into a "lets point what we think CE's faults are in spite of what he has said to the artist." Thats what has happened. Quite literally. Its obviously not an exageration, and its not a lie.

I think you all need to stand back and look at how you've treated me and for what. This is the TMF, and what goes on on the TMF for me stays on the TMF. Thats the way I've dealt with it. I'm not so irresponsible as to let this leak out into the community and other groups and sites. Its very much contained, as are my feelings for each of you.

Outside of this forum I feel differently for each of you, as our exchanges are more pleasant. There is surely a difference between the happenings on the TMF and elsewhere. I'm set on containing it this way. If you want to make this about everything, all or nothing so to speak, then thats your choice. All this anger and resentment is really unnecessary.

EDIT:

@ HDS (you posted right before I did)-

I'd just as easily walk away from this, but I won't do it unless its mutual. But you know how it is. Theres always that lurker or some such person that posts and then foils any attempt for a closure. The only answer is mod involvement. Otherwise this will continue for any given reason. I can drop it, but they can't. Not my fault but I'm dealing with it anyway.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

They were/are the agressors here. So its only right that they back off first, and then I will. Why should I stop first? Thats BS. If I didn't know any better I'd say this was a setup and they were just looking for a reason to go off on me. Anger management people, anger managment.

EDIT:

You should have kept your opinions of me and my post to yourselves. The only one who had a right to deal with it however he wished was kingmidrif himself. You all need to stop getting into other people's business and looking for a reason to contradict them at every turn. If you disagree, fine, I just don't need to hear about it publically. You have all contributed to the ruination of this thread. You can't say its me because it all started when you started posting. If you had let it be and just posted like I wasn't there or whatever it is you have to do to block your feelings out, then you should have done that. Who am I to tell you what to do? No one. Although this all could have been avoided and you know it. The reason why this thread is so off isn't foggy or unknown, or up in the air. You all know why- because you wanted to put your two cents in about my two cents. You should have had the presense of mind to know what would happen. You simply didn't care. You ruined this, not I.

 

[Synful Pryde]

kingmidrif, very nice work. I (like the others it seems) really like your style for doing hair/strands. I also like the light reflections on the gal's eyes. For me, it seems like eye reflections are that which mark someone/something as "there". You know what I mean? It's kind of hard to explain. It's like ... well, you've heard the expression "the spark of life", right? To me, the reflections are that spark. It's one of the most riveting things to observe in real life (as well as this picture!), and I think you did it very well. Are you planning on doing background work in your future drawings? 🙂

Also - love the tat on her side~

~Syn

 

[kahoshiden]

I agree with CC, Damien, you just really need to setle down with your posts and just apreciate the art man. Yeah there's time for critiquing, but dude, you make it seem like you're crabing about it. Just appreciate art for once man. Just to not get off the subject, kingmidrif you have done some pretty impressive stuff man. Keep up with the goth tickling pics you're a natural at it😉 Good luck in the future man.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yes, the eyes. I particularly like the eyes like I said BEFORE in the other thread. Its the hair the eyes that I feel he's done the best job with. Its just the pose that to got to me, as the angle made her form look a bit awkward to me. TO ME. If no one else feels that way, then good for you.

I also made that crack about the eyes looking like Smeagol. I meant that actually as a reversed compliment. Some might take it as a diss because Smeagol is a repulsive looking creature and this is a beautiful young human woman, but the compliment is in that you can see Smeagol's soul through his eyes. Though corrupted by the Ring, you can see his innocence and the 'light hearted hobbit side' in him.

The same is true for this goth girl in regards to her soul (whatever condition it might be in). The tickling for me in this picture wasn't important, nor was the expression or situation. It was the eyes and is continuing to be the eyes that attract me to these drawings in the first place. The rest was purely technical.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I agree with CC, Damien, you just really need to setle down with your posts and just apreciate the art man. Yeah there's time for critiquing, but dude, you make it seem like you're crabing about it. Just appreciate art for once man. Just to not get off the subject, kingmidrif you have done some pretty impressive stuff man. Keep up with the goth tickling pics you're a natural at it😉 Good luck in the future man.

Of course you have to agree with him. He's your good buddy and don't give me any BS that that doesn't weigh in to supporting him or not because it does.

The fact is I haven't critiqued in a long ass time. Years even. So don't act is if I do this on a regular basis or that I deserved that, because I didn't and you'd be lying to argue about that.

Just leave me be. You all do your things your way and I'll do them mine. Don't bark up my tree like CC does. Just post what you've got to post and leave it be. Thats the only thing I can see as workable. If you all persist on nagging me, then its your own fault. I react, I don't ever start it, thats a damn fact that I can back up with proof and references if need be. So just back the hell off and leave me alone when I post to someone else. If you cannot do that then this is truely just your problem, and not mine at all.

You are all just as responsible for what goes on here as I am, so get with it.

 

[Myriads]

Art was posted on a public forum.

The artist did not say if he wanted to hear what people thought. Nor did he say that he was opposed to it.

So in my eyes, and under this forums rules the artwork is open to being critiqued in a mindful and constructive way.

Another user did this. He stated his opinions about the work and took the time to tell us why he felt this way. He did not shout "It sucks!" and run off. He took the time to make a measured statement of opinion, and backed his reasons. This is allowed and desired. It's called discussion. It's useful and productive to all of us who see it.

And then the thread goes to hell with cross insults and acusations and all other forms of idiocy. No one bothered to discuss the work, or continue the discussion. They couldn't get past the issue that someone didn't enjoy the work and chose to constructivly share an opinion.

How dissapointing.

This is done.

Myriads