ShiningIce
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Ok, if the Borg launched a FULL invasion (more than one damn ship) into Klingon space who would win??
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The Borg VS. The Klingons
- Thread starter ShiningIce
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strtbottomjim
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It would depend entirely on extensive market research over at Paramount Studios 
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.WallStreet
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*Bones* "Heartbeat is off. Pulse is all wrong. Jim, this man is a Klingon!"
The Trouble with Tribles.
The Trouble with Tribles.
TickledToDeath
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How do you say.."Resistance is Futile" in Klingon?
TTD
TTD
My Klingon Dictionary doesn't provide any translations for that phrase...
But, assuming we're talking about the terrifying Borg and not the watered-down version from Voyager, I'd have to bet on the Borg. As has been pointed out, like vampires, they gather converts from fallen foes, so they have a numerical advantage. We've seen assimilated Klingons among their number, and that means the Collective knows every tactic the Empire might use. (Klingons have been flying D-7 K'T'inga-Class cruisers around and wearing the same uniforms for over two centuries at least, so innovation isn't their strong suit.) Klingon technology has always seemed to lag behind the Federation, and we saw how the best of Starfleet fared at Wolf 359. Also, the Borg would be packing whatever tech/biomass they would have assimilated from the Krenim, Hirogen, Romulans, and other powers lying between the Borg Collective and the Klingon Empire. Finally, Klingons wouldn't be fighting to survive, since they see dying in battle as the best life can get.
That's according to what we know, however... if my dimension-hopping Klingon Alter-ego Kalnod the Mad were there... I'd suggest a little trick picked up from the Minbari Rangers and get as many Telepaths together as possible. A whole planet or two full of people thinking "DIE!!!" all at once is going to do serious damage to the Borg Hive-Mind...
But, assuming we're talking about the terrifying Borg and not the watered-down version from Voyager, I'd have to bet on the Borg. As has been pointed out, like vampires, they gather converts from fallen foes, so they have a numerical advantage. We've seen assimilated Klingons among their number, and that means the Collective knows every tactic the Empire might use. (Klingons have been flying D-7 K'T'inga-Class cruisers around and wearing the same uniforms for over two centuries at least, so innovation isn't their strong suit.) Klingon technology has always seemed to lag behind the Federation, and we saw how the best of Starfleet fared at Wolf 359. Also, the Borg would be packing whatever tech/biomass they would have assimilated from the Krenim, Hirogen, Romulans, and other powers lying between the Borg Collective and the Klingon Empire. Finally, Klingons wouldn't be fighting to survive, since they see dying in battle as the best life can get.
That's according to what we know, however... if my dimension-hopping Klingon Alter-ego Kalnod the Mad were there... I'd suggest a little trick picked up from the Minbari Rangers and get as many Telepaths together as possible. A whole planet or two full of people thinking "DIE!!!" all at once is going to do serious damage to the Borg Hive-Mind...
Dave2112
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I, however, would love to see the Borg attempt to "adapt" to the blasts of seventy Star Destroyer-based turbolaser batteries, the Death Star superlaser and a fleet of Interdictor cruisers frigging with thier gravity wells...he he he
TickledToDeath
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Dave2112 said:I, however, would love to see the Borg attempt to "adapt" to the blasts of seventy Star Destroyer-based turbolaser batteries, the Death Star superlaser and a fleet of Interdictor cruisers frigging with thier gravity wells...he he he
The "Empire" couldn't handle a fist full of Rebel forces and a Jedi Warrior.
The Borg would Eat the Emipre for a morning snack.
TTD
Ps Especially if the Borg had Locutus back.
Even Jean Luc Piccard could have a field day with the candy ass Empire!
Dave2112
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Perhaps the Empire, yes. Although in a straight-forward military operation, I doubt it. The Empire was overcome by the Rebels and a Jedi because of a lot of behind-the scenes stuff as well as just the military aspect.
Let's keep in mind that at the height of its power, the Empire's military constituted the entire Galaxy. The Imperial Navy and the Army (not to mention Palpatine's shadow forces) represented the whole Empire, whereas the Borg are more or less in their own part of the galaxy (Star Trek fans help me out with this one, as I'm not that sure.)
One thing that Palpatine was very fond of was "Superweapons". Entire systems of planets were raped for nothing more than thier raw materials, used to build a massive fleet. Two Death Stars, the Sun Crusher, the Eye of Palpatine, plus the twelve Executor-class Star Destroyers, over four hundred Imperial and Victory-class Star Destroyers and countless millions of fighters and support craft...and the Borg would be wiped if by nothing more than sheer numbers.
Someone else touched upon a mental link with the Borg collective as well. Could you imagine a well-trained Jedi (or even Sith for that matter) pulling a "Mind-Trick" on the Borg leader, or wherever they keep the "brain"?
And on a last note, I would just love to see the look on Borg#3458784's face when he tried to adapt to a lightsaber in the chest.
Let's keep in mind that at the height of its power, the Empire's military constituted the entire Galaxy. The Imperial Navy and the Army (not to mention Palpatine's shadow forces) represented the whole Empire, whereas the Borg are more or less in their own part of the galaxy (Star Trek fans help me out with this one, as I'm not that sure.)
One thing that Palpatine was very fond of was "Superweapons". Entire systems of planets were raped for nothing more than thier raw materials, used to build a massive fleet. Two Death Stars, the Sun Crusher, the Eye of Palpatine, plus the twelve Executor-class Star Destroyers, over four hundred Imperial and Victory-class Star Destroyers and countless millions of fighters and support craft...and the Borg would be wiped if by nothing more than sheer numbers.
Someone else touched upon a mental link with the Borg collective as well. Could you imagine a well-trained Jedi (or even Sith for that matter) pulling a "Mind-Trick" on the Borg leader, or wherever they keep the "brain"?
And on a last note, I would just love to see the look on Borg#3458784's face when he tried to adapt to a lightsaber in the chest.
strtbottomjim
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Ah, but remember, warfare is economic as well as military. And in that arena, George Lucas and company have more to spend than Paramount .
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Dave2112
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Although the two have crossed, at least on one occasion. In "First Contact", look closely frame-by-frame if you have a DVD player and the widescreen version. During the big battle between the Republic--oops, the Federation forces (gotta keep those two straight) and the Borg, the Millenium Falcon flashes quickly through the dense battle.
Just one of those hard-to-spot little Easter Eggs, like the E.T.'s in the Senate Chamber in Episode I.
Just one of those hard-to-spot little Easter Eggs, like the E.T.'s in the Senate Chamber in Episode I.
With respect to the Borg adapting to the Empire's superweapons, I agree that a blast from the Superlaser could probably destroy a Borg cube. But let's also remember something else. In First Contact, the Borg managed to beam onto the Enterprise E after their sphere was destroyed in the moments when the Enterprise's shields had dropped. Since there are no transporters in the Star Wars universe, there are probably no transporter-proof shields either.
Hence, a handful of Borg transport onto the Death Star as soon as their cube is destroyed. Stormtroopers manage to kill one, maybe two before they adapt. And I'm guesssing blasters can't be calibrated like a phaser can. In a few minutes, you'll have an army of assimilated Stormtroopers taking over the Death Star. And if you thought Palpatine was frightening with a planet-destroying superweapon, ust imagine what the Borg Queen has in store for it...
Hence, a handful of Borg transport onto the Death Star as soon as their cube is destroyed. Stormtroopers manage to kill one, maybe two before they adapt. And I'm guesssing blasters can't be calibrated like a phaser can. In a few minutes, you'll have an army of assimilated Stormtroopers taking over the Death Star. And if you thought Palpatine was frightening with a planet-destroying superweapon, ust imagine what the Borg Queen has in store for it...
Dave2112 said:And on a last note, I would just love to see the look on Borg#3458784's face when he tried to adapt to a lightsaber in the chest.
Maybe, but Borg #3458787 will have adapted a shield to block it. Then what's your Jedi gonna do, throw furnature at it with his mind?
Dave2112
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Maybe not throw furniture, but there are other subtle tricks. Wurth Skidder used an evil little trick on one of his Yuuzhan Vong captors which consisted of creating a Force-bubble around the captor's head...and removing the air from it. Even a Borg has to breath.
Failing that, there are all kinds of Force tricks that can affect the body directly.
Blasters can be calibrated, but not to the level of Star Trek phasers, which can apparently be "modified" to cut steel, boil water, disrupt hydrogen particles, make coffe and rearrange hair pigment. Handy weapons, those.
Also, I doubt that "adapting" would work against a lightsaber. It's not a "laser" weapon, but an energy weapon that uses atom-shearing rather than heat, nuclear release or impact. The effect of a lightsaber happens on the atomic level, and you can't change the laws of physics, no matter how adaptive you are.
Failing that, there are all kinds of Force tricks that can affect the body directly.
Blasters can be calibrated, but not to the level of Star Trek phasers, which can apparently be "modified" to cut steel, boil water, disrupt hydrogen particles, make coffe and rearrange hair pigment. Handy weapons, those.
Also, I doubt that "adapting" would work against a lightsaber. It's not a "laser" weapon, but an energy weapon that uses atom-shearing rather than heat, nuclear release or impact. The effect of a lightsaber happens on the atomic level, and you can't change the laws of physics, no matter how adaptive you are.
Actually, as seen in Star Trek: First Contact, Borg seem to able to go without breathing for extended periods of time, otherwise they would not have been able to construct a beacon on the Enterprise-E's exterior hull surface.
As for the matter of Borg vs. The Empire, that's a tougher question. The Empire's primary weapon is the laser, even oversized overpowered ones like the Turbolaser and Death Star Superlaser. We've seen on Star Trek that the Enterprise's shields pretty much shrug off lasers as a non-threat, so I'd imagine that the Borg shields tune them out automatically. I don't have the physics training to do the math for comparing the power required by a shield to block out the energy behind a planet-cracking Superlaser blast, though. If the new Star Trek Role-Playing Game coming out from Decipher is D20-compatible, we may just have to roll the dice in order to find out.
As far as Borg adapting to a lightsaber, Borg drones possess personal shield generators. I've never seen a lightsaber cut through a force-field, or Qui-Gon & Darth Maul would have kept going at it when they were on opposite sides of the shield in the Theed Palace reactor core. Also, if the Borg had assimilated some Cortosis ore into their structure, all bets are off. (Cortosis is the only known metal that reflects lightsaber energy. The Yinchorri made use of Cortosis shields in their campaign against the Republic in Star Wars: Jedi Council - Acts of War from Dark Horse Comics, and I suspect that it was a component of the Ancient Sith's alchemically-forged blades)
Regarding the Borg's location, they do not encompass the entire Galaxy. The Borg Collective is centralized in the Delta Quadrant (the Northeast quarter of the Galaxy. Earth and the Federation are located in the Alpha Quadrant to Galactic Southwest) where it is comprised of a large number of sectors and systems connected by a network of transwarp conduits (stable Hyperspace express-routes, so to speak). I'd say Borg territory is between ten to twenty thousand Light Years in diameter, a huge portion of the Delta Quadrant, but not all of it. Also, the Borg can cross the Galaxy in a matter of hours due to their transwarp conduit network, which is known to have terminals in the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants. Controlling territory in the Galaxy may be irrelevant if they can reach it in minutes anyway.
And with respect to Jedi Mind Tricks used against the Collective, again we'll just have to wait for gaming stats for the Borg Queen and roll the dice.
Only 400 Star Destroyers? I thought there were more than that, at least a thousand if you count the Victory-Class.
Oh, and about the look on Borg #3458485's face when he gets lightsabered? It would most likely be the same blank emotionless mask he always wore.
As for the matter of Borg vs. The Empire, that's a tougher question. The Empire's primary weapon is the laser, even oversized overpowered ones like the Turbolaser and Death Star Superlaser. We've seen on Star Trek that the Enterprise's shields pretty much shrug off lasers as a non-threat, so I'd imagine that the Borg shields tune them out automatically. I don't have the physics training to do the math for comparing the power required by a shield to block out the energy behind a planet-cracking Superlaser blast, though. If the new Star Trek Role-Playing Game coming out from Decipher is D20-compatible, we may just have to roll the dice in order to find out.
As far as Borg adapting to a lightsaber, Borg drones possess personal shield generators. I've never seen a lightsaber cut through a force-field, or Qui-Gon & Darth Maul would have kept going at it when they were on opposite sides of the shield in the Theed Palace reactor core. Also, if the Borg had assimilated some Cortosis ore into their structure, all bets are off. (Cortosis is the only known metal that reflects lightsaber energy. The Yinchorri made use of Cortosis shields in their campaign against the Republic in Star Wars: Jedi Council - Acts of War from Dark Horse Comics, and I suspect that it was a component of the Ancient Sith's alchemically-forged blades)
Regarding the Borg's location, they do not encompass the entire Galaxy. The Borg Collective is centralized in the Delta Quadrant (the Northeast quarter of the Galaxy. Earth and the Federation are located in the Alpha Quadrant to Galactic Southwest) where it is comprised of a large number of sectors and systems connected by a network of transwarp conduits (stable Hyperspace express-routes, so to speak). I'd say Borg territory is between ten to twenty thousand Light Years in diameter, a huge portion of the Delta Quadrant, but not all of it. Also, the Borg can cross the Galaxy in a matter of hours due to their transwarp conduit network, which is known to have terminals in the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants. Controlling territory in the Galaxy may be irrelevant if they can reach it in minutes anyway.
And with respect to Jedi Mind Tricks used against the Collective, again we'll just have to wait for gaming stats for the Borg Queen and roll the dice.
Only 400 Star Destroyers? I thought there were more than that, at least a thousand if you count the Victory-Class.
Oh, and about the look on Borg #3458485's face when he gets lightsabered? It would most likely be the same blank emotionless mask he always wore.
Dave2112
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As to "transporter-proof" shields...any particle shield would do the trick, although ray-shielding would not hamper a transporter in all likelihood. And I mistyped "400" Star Destroyers, I meant 4,000.
Although this is a fun thread, the lack of consistency between the two "Universes" makes all of this speculative at best. When it all comes down to where the cheese binds, though...I'd have to set the toys and hardware aside and throw my lot in with the intangibles. You never know what Jedi will come up with next. Some things just can't be measured in Parsecs, Amplitudes or Gravatic Coefficients, and that's the real difference.
You just gotta have faith.
Although this is a fun thread, the lack of consistency between the two "Universes" makes all of this speculative at best. When it all comes down to where the cheese binds, though...I'd have to set the toys and hardware aside and throw my lot in with the intangibles. You never know what Jedi will come up with next. Some things just can't be measured in Parsecs, Amplitudes or Gravatic Coefficients, and that's the real difference.
You just gotta have faith.
ShiningIce
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Hmm it makes you wonder. If the Enterprise C took on the The Imperial Command Star Destroyer who would win??
Dave2112
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You guys do realize that you can dock the Enterprise in a Star Destroyers hold, right?
And here's a question. What's with all the capital ships in Star Trek? Why do they not utilize any fighters? This is what would lead me to believe that Star Trek vessels would be overwhelmed. They are not designed to target multiple craft, or not more than three or four at any rate. It's basic military strategy to have massive power and small, manueverable craft for surgical strikes.
An Imperial Star Destroyer is more than capable of defending itself against several squadrons of fighters. I wonder how any of the ST ships would react to not only staring down the Executor, but also having 40 incoming TIE Interceptors buzzing about?
And here's a question. What's with all the capital ships in Star Trek? Why do they not utilize any fighters? This is what would lead me to believe that Star Trek vessels would be overwhelmed. They are not designed to target multiple craft, or not more than three or four at any rate. It's basic military strategy to have massive power and small, manueverable craft for surgical strikes.
An Imperial Star Destroyer is more than capable of defending itself against several squadrons of fighters. I wonder how any of the ST ships would react to not only staring down the Executor, but also having 40 incoming TIE Interceptors buzzing about?
Well, Starfleet does utilize some fighters, the Defiant being one of the prime examples. It's a ship designed specifically for battle. But it's probably about Millenium Falcon-sized; you would need a small fleet to take on a Star Destroyer. And as it's been observed, Starfleet has a lot of ships not build for battle. Most ships are made for exploration and diplomacy, with weapons meant only for self-defense. As Guinan said of the Enterprise-D, "This isn't a ship of war. It's a ship of peace."
I think that right there crystalizes the difference between the two universes
I think that right there crystalizes the difference between the two universes
Actually, the Defiant is more of an Escort, and it's about the size of the Corellian Corvette (or "Rebel Blockade Runner" from A New Hope). Starfleet does use fighters, notably the Peregrine-class seen during the Dominion War on Deep Space Nine. Pergrines are about twice the size of a shuttlecraft and generally as well armed as a Runabout. (2-4 Phasers, and a rack of mini-torpedoes) The Maquis use older models of these fighters, and the Bajorans have some fighters of their own. The Kazon and other Delta-Quadrant powers have been known to employ fightercraft as well.
Errata: The Defiant, not the Intrepid, was destroyed by the Dominion. The Intrepid is the same class as the Voyager, and has not been seen yet. The Enterprise-C, destroyed by the Romulans at Khitomer, was an Ambassador-Class ship, and not nearly as impressive as Picard's Galaxy-Class Enterprise-D or Sovereign-Class Enterprise-E.
As for the original question of Enterprise vs. Executor, we're back to the laser problem. Starfleet shields laugh at lasers, maybe even turbolasers, and the Enterprise has a significant speed and maneuverablity advantage over the huge and ponderous Super Star Destroyer. I don't know how Imperial particle or ray shielding would hold up to the anti-matter warhead of a photon torpedo, either. Phasers appear to be some sort of energy weapon rather than a particle beam, so ray shielding might hold up. If the Executor's ion cannons frag the Enterprise's shields and electronics, then it's just a six-hundred meter long paperweight, and the Exectutor could slag it with ease. We've seen on Star Trek that ion storms and the like will fry sensors & transporters, I'd guess the shield won't hold up either.
Errata: The Defiant, not the Intrepid, was destroyed by the Dominion. The Intrepid is the same class as the Voyager, and has not been seen yet. The Enterprise-C, destroyed by the Romulans at Khitomer, was an Ambassador-Class ship, and not nearly as impressive as Picard's Galaxy-Class Enterprise-D or Sovereign-Class Enterprise-E.
As for the original question of Enterprise vs. Executor, we're back to the laser problem. Starfleet shields laugh at lasers, maybe even turbolasers, and the Enterprise has a significant speed and maneuverablity advantage over the huge and ponderous Super Star Destroyer. I don't know how Imperial particle or ray shielding would hold up to the anti-matter warhead of a photon torpedo, either. Phasers appear to be some sort of energy weapon rather than a particle beam, so ray shielding might hold up. If the Executor's ion cannons frag the Enterprise's shields and electronics, then it's just a six-hundred meter long paperweight, and the Exectutor could slag it with ease. We've seen on Star Trek that ion storms and the like will fry sensors & transporters, I'd guess the shield won't hold up either.
