The Future of Video Tickling

[SmarterthanU]

In the video forum, I said I'd start a thread for discussion about the future of tickling videos. Here goes.

I'll put in my thoughts and then you guys can have at it.

Short-term, I'm putting my money on amateur production.

I've been watching tickling/fetish/BDSM videos for as long as they have been available. I think BDSM video is going to continue on it's current path, primarily because people like to see huge BDSM productions with huge rooms and gear and models who are better looking and more willing to do more extreme things than are generally available to people in real life, even most BDSM enthusiasts.

Tickling is different. I don't think the market will dry up for more fantastic video scenarios, but I think the psychology of the viewers is changing a little. It used to be that tickling videos weren't successful unless they were entirely focused on the ticklee. In the beginning, like in the old Tied & Tickled series, producers weren't plugged in to consumers because the internet was in its infancy. One of the hottest commercial videos ever made was Tied & Tickled 1. But generally speaking, once producers learned that most male tickling fetishists did not want to see the tickler - things took off. The anonymous tickler became really popular. Tickler in Black - that sort of thing. Video that showed a naked couple using tickle torture as foreplay really had only a niche audience and eventually died out altogether. In a strange way, it was as if most of the tickle video customers were jealous of the male tickler in the video. But since the tickler was necessary, de-sexualizing him, while hyper-sexualizing the ticklee was what sold, units.

Things are changing. While it's still a relatively small market, f/M tickling vids are getting popular (probably as more male ticklers are coming to terms with their earlier desires). Still practically taboo, certain M/M video is getting some attention. It's funny to me, but the industry seems to be struggling over how to handle an erect penis (pardon the pun). In vids were there's a male ticklee, all of a sudden we aren't so jazzed up for nudity.

But that will change, too. We've explored the D/s side of tickling and will continue to do so, but the new frontier is going to be real-life tickle-couples, doing what real life tickle-couples do, and this will undoubtedly open the door to amateurs. It's getting easier and easier to produce and market videos now. Of course, not every couple will be doing it, and commercial producers will wait on the sidelines to see if anyone's making money before they move in that direction.

My theory is based on a couple of observations. To my mind, no commercial producer has ever made a tickling video that even comes close to the gold standard of tickling videos, and of course I'm talking about Bill & L. Bill & L is grainy, just adequately lit - shot in a hotel room, and has only two scenes. L is not a typical fetish model with implants. She's a real-life submissive, and while she's very sexy, she's not a 23-year-old budding pornstar. What she is - that most others are not - is truly, 100% ticklish. She howls with laughter and is tickled mercilessly. By her boyfriend (perhaps husband). The point is that this relationship allows for a kind of tickler/ticklee experience that commercial producers just don't have with their models.

Then there is the topic of foreplay and sex. At some point, as more people become interested in tickling (the community is growing - just look at the TMF membership now as opposed to what it would have been 10 years ago), more women are going to discover that tickling is a real turn-on, sexually. Yes, most women "hate" being tickled, but even among them, there are a lot who love to tickle. I suspect that the tickling fetish is going to be more accepted in the near future, if only just by baby steps. But women are going to want to sexual intimacy with tickling, not the kind of male-oriented objectification that currently dominates the market. The producer who taps into this market - the real life tickle couple and the switch-ticklers, with hot tickling leading to hot, tasteful sex - well, my prediction is - that's the future of tickling video.

Your thoughts?

 

[Redmage]

I basically agree with you, but for different reasons.

BDSM producers don't avoid tickling - you see it from time to time as one part of a larger production. But they don't focus on it mainly because it's a fetish sub-speciality: the market that's interested in tickling alone, out of all the possibilities in BDSM, is too small to repay the expensive overhead that defines professional BDSM video these days.

You see those fancy sets and high production values in commercial BDSM these days because more glitz and glamor always looks good, and because the BDSM market is large enough to support such expenses. To put it in perspective, the BDSM megasite Kink.Com recently bought the entire San Francisco Armory - at a cost of $14 million - to serve as their production studios and business offices. They could do that because their many BDSM sites (hogtied.com, waterbondage.com, and others) generate such amazing revenues. I don't think every tickling fetish producer in the world could have come up with that sort of money if they pooled all their resources together. That's why BDSM producers can afford the top-shelf models, first-class cameras, professional sets, and expensive editing systems.

There has been a boom in tickling production over the last 10 years or so. I think this is driven by two factors: the plummeting cost of basic video equipment; and the internet, which helps producers reach the widely scattered tickling fans that form their customer base. This has made it possible for small companies to tap into a small market and still make a small profit. But it's nowhere near enough to draw the attention of the big boys.

So I agree that tickling will remain mainly an amateur/semipro market for some while to come - possibly forever. Production values will continue to improve as the means of production get cheaper, but fetish video companies with large customer bases will still keep ahead just because they can afford the best.

 

[SmarterthanU]

I basically agree with you, but for different reasons.

BDSM producers don't avoid tickling - you see it from time to time as one part of a larger production. But they don't focus on it mainly because it's a fetish sub-speciality: the market that's interested in tickling alone, out of all the possibilities in BDSM, is too small to repay the expensive overhead that defines professional BDSM video these days.

Yup, right there with you -

You see those fancy sets and high production values in commercial BDSM these days because more glitz and glamor always looks good, and because the BDSM market is large enough to support such expenses. To put it in perspective, the BDSM megasite Kink.Com recently bought the entire San Francisco Armory - at a cost of $14 million - to serve as their production studios and business offices.

Didn't I read about some legal troubles with that purchase? Didn't the neighbors try to block it, or shut them down right after they began production there?

They could do that because their many BDSM sites (hogtied.com, waterbondage.com, and others) generate such amazing revenues. I don't think every tickling fetish producer in the world could have come up with that sort of money if they pooled all their resources together. That's why BDSM producers can afford the top-shelf models, first-class cameras, professional sets, and expensive editing systems.

Right - and that is the goal of all the fetish models just starting out, some of whom show up in tickling videos. Do you happen to know what the average model for Hogtied or Wiredpussy makes for a shoot? I'll bet its less than one would think.

There has been a boom in tickling production over the last 10 years or so. I think this is driven by two factors: the plummeting cost of basic video equipment; and the internet, which helps producers reach the widely scattered tickling fans that form their customer base. This has made it possible for small companies to tap into a small market and still make a small profit. But it's nowhere near enough to draw the attention of the big boys.

- nodding -

So I agree that tickling will remain mainly an amateur/semipro market for some while to come - possibly forever. Production values will continue to improve as the means of production get cheaper, but fetish video companies with large customer bases will still keep ahead just because they can afford the best.

Yes, and because, as I said, there's a part of BDSM that's really all about what they show. But unless you have the major dollars, even the keen BDSM enthusiast doesn't get to see it, except through those producers.

I think there's another aspect as well, that I didn't touch on before - and you might want to comment on this, Red - but the truth, I think, is that there are lots of tickle fetishists who have never actually participated in a real-life tickling scene. And there's nowhere to go to even get close it. It either happens in their mind, or on video. The same used to be true for BDSM-ers, but I think now that there's a lot of opportunity to get close to it - in real life - even if you don't participate. Every big city and lots of smaller ones have BDSM clubs and gatherings and at least once-a-week playspaces. Tickling fetishists don't have anything like that. We have our gatherings, but at this point they are probably more intimidating than not, because they aren't nearly as anonymous as most large BDSM gatherings.

So there's not a lot of money in showing the intimate side of BDSM (as opposed to the ultra-flash, ultra-edgy side), because people who are doing BDSM are still into the big production websites. It's like an add-on. But tickling is different because so few tickling fetishists have ever witnessed a real tickle session, let alone participated in one. I think there's going to come a time when we might want to start thinking about the female side of our community. How many women do you think are out there assuming that if they are not into being strapped down and treated like a prisoner or whatever, they'll never be able to satisfy a male 'ler? I'd bet more than a few, but I'd like to read your take on it too. On the other hand, if any female group must suffer from that, females interested in BDSM must. How many women must fell like if they can't or won't do what they see on Wiredpussy, they don't stand a chance of having a successful BDSM relationship? Let me stop here and, and let you reply ...

 

[Redmage]

Didn't I read about some legal troubles with that purchase? Didn't the neighbors try to block it, or shut them down right after they began production there?

There was an effort, but it hasn't gone anywhere. Before he dropped $14 million the CEO of Kink.com made sure that all his ducks were in a row. There's just no solid legal basis for opposing either his purchase of the building or what he's chosen to do with his property.

Do you happen to know what the average model for Hogtied or Wiredpussy makes for a shoot? I'll bet its less than one would think.

I can tell you exactly what they make. Kink.com publishes its rates. It ranges from $125-$400/hour or more for a 3-4 hour shoot, depending on what's involved. From my own work in BDSM photography I can tell you that this is competitive, and well above the rates that most tickling producers can afford. I think few pure tickling producers pay more than $100/hour for their models, and most are a good deal less than that (in the $50-$75 range).

Yes, and because, as I said, there's a part of BDSM that's really all about what they show. But unless you have the major dollars, even the keen BDSM enthusiast doesn't get to see it, except through those producers.

It depends on what you mean. There's really very little in BDSM or BDSM video that's purely for show. You can see this by looking back at BDSM videos in the pre-internet and early-internet days. Back then BDSM production was about on the level that tickling production is now: simple one-camera scenes usually shot in the producer's bedroom or a corner of his or her basement. Very little costuming, very simple props, if any. They still do things that way at sites like Bedroom Bondage, so clearly such things aren't intrinsic to the genre.

Now, it's true that on the whole BDSM is more expensive than tickling - as a playstyle as well as in video. I personally have a collection of whips that represents probably $2500-$3000, and that's just part of my "toybag." And the equipment needed to do some of the fancier stuff such as suspension scenes can be moderately expensive - a few hundred dollars perhaps.

But these things aren't required in BDSM itself, or even in BDSM video. They've become the standard in BDSM video production over about the last 10 years in a process of gradual expansion. It's competition more than basic requirements of genre.

It started with the internet, really. When the web came online it was the greatest marketing tool for porn ever created, and fetish porn probably benefited even more than mainstream porn, because fetish fans are fewer in number by definition. Suddenly every fetish could find a profitable market, and the market for BDSM turned out to be quite large.

So BDSM producers started making more money, and some of them invested that money in things that made their videos look more professional, flashier, and more appealing. Very skilled bondage experts and other people with high-end skills were suddenly able to afford video equipment, and so the overall skill-level of SM videos increased dramatically - fancier bondage is just the most visible aspect of this. This has led to an accelerating spiral: customers gravitated to the videos that used the best production equipment, the fancier sets, the more elaborate furniture, and so those things have become more and more necessary for BDSM producers who want to make good money.

Kink.com is the poster-child for this process. They are far and away the most high-tech BDSM producers on the market - and far and away the most successful. But it's not inherent to the genre. If you look at lesser sites such as Shadowplay Imaging or The Bondage Channel you see costumes and equipment not much beyond what you would see in a tickling production. Midrange sites like Bondage Cafe are known for extremely high video production values and gorgeous costuming, but not the really extravagant equipment that makes Kink.com stand out.

I believe what you're seeing is the same process that you would see in any other industry that suddenly found itself with a lot of money. If you watch old Star Trek episodes (or Gods help you, old Doctor Who episodes) you'll be hard-pressed not to laugh at the cheesy special effects and cardboard sets. But those shows defined the best of the genre in their day. They look quaint today only because science fiction and special effects are much bigger sources of income now than they used to be.

Today something like Kirk's Enterprise would be good only if the goal was deliberate comedy. But it's not because you MUST have the best SFX in order to do science fiction. They did just fine without them back in the day. But then Star Wars came along and everything since was judged in comparison to Lucas's video magic. Lucas raised the bar, and the entire genre went along to stay competitive. The same thing is happening today in BDSM video production: more money means some producers up the "eye-appeal" of their videos, and other producers are dragged along by the trend. If tickling producers ever start making enough money to do the same, they will.

I think there's another aspect as well, that I didn't touch on before - and you might want to comment on this, Red - but the truth, I think, is that there are lots of tickle fetishists who have never actually participated in a real-life tickling scene. And there's nowhere to go to even get close it. It either happens in their mind, or on video. The same used to be true for BDSM-ers, but I think now that there's a lot of opportunity to get close to it - in real life - even if you don't participate. Every big city and lots of smaller ones have BDSM clubs and gatherings and at least once-a-week playspaces. Tickling fetishists don't have anything like that. We have our gatherings, but at this point they are probably more intimidating than not, because they aren't nearly as anonymous as most large BDSM gatherings.

Yeeeesss...sort of. You're right that because the kink community is far larger there are many more opportunities for kinksters to meet each other and indulge in their fantasies. However I think you'll find that a surprising number with these interests still never do anything with them in real life. There are lots of reasons ranging from inhibitions to vanilla spouses or even just lack of awareness of what's out there for them.

At the same time this increased opportunity has pushed BDSM video along ahead of it. People pay for fantasies - things that go beyond what they can do themselves. So as the level of awareness and overall skill has gone up among BDSM fans their video entertainment has had to keep ahead of them. The most successful producers offer things that are beyond the skills and pocketbooks of most BDSM enthusiasts. You see the same in tickling videos on a smaller scale - as with "stocks" and similar equipment that most tickling fans don't have room or money enough to put in their own houses.

So there's not a lot of money in showing the intimate side of BDSM (as opposed to the ultra-flash, ultra-edgy side), because people who are doing BDSM are still into the big production websites. It's like an add-on.

Again, that's a partial answer. The tender side of BDSM is partly just difficult to show on video - it's subtler than that in many cases. Also because it's not amateur any more the people doing it often aren't in an intimate relationship with each other. They're paid performers. Ideally of course they're performers who enjoy those particular kinks - Kink.com insists on that in their models. But they're still performers, not lovers in most cases. That's related to the fact that it's become an industry, but less related to the fact that it's BDSM.

Another factor though is the nature of fantasy. You see the same thing in a lot of mainstream het porn. Real people very seldom engage in the sort of casual, random sex that you see in regular sex films. Debbie never really does Dallas. That's part of what the customer is paying for when he buys a sex film: the image of a lust-crazed sex starlet who just wants to get a man - any man - inside her without cumbersome burdens like emotional commitment.

So too in BDSM vids: oftentimes emotions go out the window because they just aren't what the customer wants in his fantasy. If you look at BDSM porn made by and for women, you get a somewhat different look and feel. But the female audience for porn is generally smaller, so there's not as much money to be made there.

I think there's going to come a time when we might want to start thinking about the female side of our community. How many women do you think are out there assuming that if they are not into being strapped down and treated like a prisoner or whatever, they'll never be able to satisfy a male 'ler? I'd bet more than a few, but I'd like to read your take on it too. On the other hand, if any female group must suffer from that, females interested in BDSM must. How many women must fell like if they can't or won't do what they see on Wiredpussy, they don't stand a chance of having a successful BDSM relationship?

I think there's no doubt about it: a lot of people avoid BDSM - especially BDSM parties - because they get their image of what it's supposed to be like from porn or mainstream depictions. I've met women at parties who were very pleasantly surprised by the utter lack of 6-foot Nordic goddesses in patent leather corsets and stiletto heels. And others surely think that they must submit to the sorts of extreme play that it takes to sell a fantasy these days. Of course it's not just videos doing that: The Story of O was giving people a false impression of BDSM even before the advent of VHS.

The kink community deals with this mainly through outreach. We make ourselves available at regular munches (there's at least one a week somewhere in the Bay area) and by an informal process of mentoring newbies. We try to speak up about misrepresentations when we run across them (I'm probably famous around here for doing that by now). The same thing has been growing within the tickling community for the past 15 years or so. They haven't done as much as the BDSM community or developed as quickly, but that's just because there aren't as many hands or minds available to do the work.

 

[SmarterthanU]

There was an effort, but it hasn't gone anywhere. Before he dropped $14 million the CEO of Kink.com made sure that all his ducks were in a row. There's just no solid legal basis for opposing either his purchase of the building or what he's chosen to do with his property.

I remember reading that his argument is his facility can operate 24 hours a day and not disturb anyone outside. The neighbors are just prudes and don't want Kink in their neighborhood. I found this kind of funny, considering we're talking about SF.

I can tell you exactly what they make. Kink.com publishes its rates. It ranges from $125-$400/hour or more for a 3-4 hour shoot, depending on what's involved. From my own work in BDSM photography I can tell you that this is competitive, and well above the rates that most tickling producers can afford. I think few pure tickling producers pay more than $100/hour for their models, and most are a good deal less than that (in the $50-$75 range).

Jesus, that's nothing. Even at $1,600 a day - you'd have to work a LOT to do it professionally.

It depends on what you mean. There's really very little in BDSM or BDSM video that's purely for show.

I just mean that even if you've been in the scene for 20 years, chances are you never have played in a facility like Kink's.

It started with the internet, really. When the web came online it was the greatest marketing tool for porn ever created, and fetish porn probably benefited even more than mainstream porn, because fetish fans are fewer in number by definition. Suddenly every fetish could find a profitable market, and the market for BDSM turned out to be quite large.

I remember when Cal Star had tiny ads in the back of Penthouse Forum - LOL

I remember when local BDSM groups were tiny, secretive, and totally word-of-mouth. People advertised in little newsletter-type papers that were sold in adult bookstores. The whole thing was pretty sleazy business 25 years ago.

So BDSM producers started making more money, and some of them invested that money in things that made their videos look more professional, flashier, and more appealing. Very skilled bondage experts and other people with high-end skills were suddenly able to afford video equipment, and so the overall skill-level of SM videos increased dramatically - fancier bondage is just the most visible aspect of this. This has led to an accelerating spiral: customers gravitated to the videos that used the best production equipment, the fancier sets, the more elaborate furniture, and so those things have become more and more necessary for BDSM producers who want to make good money.

Right. This is what I was alluding to above. While it isn't necessary to have a huge facility for complicated suspension and water tanks - the producers who do are going to get the customers.

Yeeeesss...sort of. You're right that because the kink community is far larger there are many more opportunities for kinksters to meet each other and indulge in their fantasies. However I think you'll find that a surprising number with these interests still never do anything with them in real life. There are lots of reasons ranging from inhibitions to vanilla spouses or even just lack of awareness of what's out there for them.

Absolutely an excellent point. But wouldn't you agre that the number of people with real life experience in BDSM has gone from thousands to hundreds of thousands in the last 15 years? As you say, it's all thanks to the Internet.

At the same time this increased opportunity has pushed BDSM video along ahead of it. People pay for fantasies - things that go beyond what they can do themselves.

Right, and I know people who are completely into BDSM, who have done plenty in terms of live scening, who are members of Kink. I'm saying that it's as much for practitioners as for lurkers (although I agree with you that there are still millions more lurkers than practitioners).

Again, that's a partial answer. The tender side of BDSM is partly just difficult to show on video - it's subtler than that in many cases. Also because it's not amateur any more the people doing it often aren't in an intimate relationship with each other. They're paid performers.

Exactly my point. And because BDSM-ers can experience the intimate side for themselves and see it live in clubs (more or less).

So too in BDSM vids: oftentimes emotions go out the window because they just aren't what the customer wants in his fantasy. If you look at BDSM porn made by and for women, you get a somewhat different look and feel. But the female audience for porn is generally smaller, so there's not as much money to be made there.

But remember when the female porn producers started making porn for women? It doesn't make nearly the money that Neanderthal porn makes, though.

I think there's no doubt about it: a lot of people avoid BDSM - especially BDSM parties - because they get their image of what it's supposed to be like from porn or mainstream depictions. I've met women at parties who were very pleasantly surprised by the utter lack of 6-foot Nordic goddesses in patent leather corsets and stiletto heels. And others surely think that they must submit to the sorts of extreme play that it takes to sell a fantasy these days. Of course it's not just videos doing that: The Story of O was giving people a false impression of BDSM even before the advent of VHS.

True. And in my mind, although from a completely different perspective, almost nothing has done more to plant elevated expectations in women's heads than the Beauty books.

The kink community deals with this mainly through outreach. We make ourselves available at regular munches (there's at least one a week somewhere in the Bay area) and by an informal process of mentoring newbies.

Well, if your newbies will let themselves be mentored, you're better off there than on the other side of America. Over here, every guy who went to the store yesterday is a seasoned "Master" today, and every woman who's read Beauty is a "lifetime slave." They have insisted on re-defining all of the terms - "bottom" means "*****" now -- LOL I don't get it.

The same thing has been growing within the tickling community for the past 15 years or so. They haven't done as much as the BDSM community or developed as quickly, but that's just because there aren't as many hands or minds available to do the work.

Well, I have to say that the BDSM community really hasn't been to accepting of the tickling community as a subset - and the tickling community has steadfastly denied that it is part of the BDSM community. The losers have been the tickling community, though - while the BDSM community has developed (and then lost much of) a tradition and a strong network, the tickling community still finds itself essentially in the stone age.

Which is why I think video has to do more for us than it did for BDSM - if you get my drift.

 

[Redmage]

I remember reading that his argument is his facility can operate 24 hours a day and not disturb anyone outside. The neighbors are just prudes and don't want Kink in their neighborhood. I found this kind of funny, considering we're talking about SF.

SF is remarkably liberal about sex. But the social attitudes about porn are still there. People who are fine with gay marriage at City Hall still don't want a "kinky porn shop" starting up near their homes. They can't wrap their minds around the idea that such a place could be professionally run and invisible from the outside.

Jesus, that's nothing. Even at $1,600 a day - you'd have to work a LOT to do it professionally.

Most "professional" models don't make their living at it. It's good for extra money, but that's all it is for most of them. However the models who do make their livings at it usually work 6-8 hours a day for $150-$300/hour. Those that are in greatest demand will usually work 2 to 4 days a week. For example it's not uncommon for one of these pros to do two shoots in the same day at Kink.com (usually for different websites in the Kink.com "stable"), then travel down to Los Angeles and shoot for a few days with various producers down there. Many of these models work for regular sexvid producers as well as fetish sites.

If you run the numbers you're looking at, say, two days a week on average at 6 hours a day, $150/hour, for $1800/week. 50 weeks a year comes to $90,000. That's a pretty decent wage for 5 days a week, let alone two days. There's just a handful of fetish models who make that kind of money, but even a model who spends most of her time as a college student and works maybe 1-2 days a month for BDSM sites may be bringing in an extra $2000 a month. $24,000 a year is good extra money for a student. I can't think of any other legal job such a student might do that would pay as well.

I knew a model who worked for a website called Insex.com for just a couple of years. She started when she was 19 and worked about a shoot a week for them pretty consistently. By the time she was 21 years old she'd saved enough money to start her own clothing store, so she quit modeling and went into retail. Working for a BDSM website isn't a bad deal for the women who do it. Working for a tickling site is less attractive.

I just mean that even if you've been in the scene for 20 years, chances are you never have played in a facility like Kink's.

True, though some of us get close. One of the old sites of Kink's studios became a BDSM playspace called "The Citadel" here in San Francisco. Most kinksters aren't that lucky, and I don't know of anyplace, anywhere, that has the kinds of facilities they have now, in the basements of the San Francisco Armory.

And that's one of the big selling points of professional BDSM videos: giving the viewer an experience that he couldn't get anywhere else.

Right. This is what I was alluding to above. While it isn't necessary to have a huge facility for complicated suspension and water tanks - the producers who do are going to get the customers.

But that's going to be true in any entertainment industry if they have the money to make it happen. If a tickling studio somehow got that sort of money, you'd see a similar explosion in their production values. Tickling vids have stayed simple because the market won't support any more, not because BDSM requires fancier work by its nature.

But wouldn't you agre that the number of people with real life experience in BDSM has gone from thousands to hundreds of thousands in the last 15 years? As you say, it's all thanks to the Internet.

I think it depends on what you mean by "real life BDSM experience." Lots and lots of people have tied their lover to the bed for a bit of play. That sort of thing is probably up in the low six figures, but that's not new. If you mean the sort of play that we see at BDSM parties (whether it actually happens at parties or not), then that's much more rare. I'd say that the people with that kind of experience have gone from a few hundred to perhaps a few tens of thousands nationwide. Mostly as a result of the internet, yes.

Right, and I know people who are completely into BDSM, who have done plenty in terms of live scening, who are members of Kink. I'm saying that it's as much for practitioners as for lurkers (although I agree with you that there are still millions more lurkers than practitioners).

Oh, sure. I look in on Kink.com's websites myself every so often, to see the "state of the art" and get some new ideas. I almost always learn something that way. I'm a little weird, though - sites like that are more like research than entertainment for me. The real kinksters are there in the Kink.com membership, but if the site's discussion boards are any indication I'd say the wannabes outnumber the players by as much as 10 to 1 there.

Exactly my point. And because BDSM-ers can experience the intimate side for themselves and see it live in clubs (more or less).

Some can. I don't know what proportion of those with the interest ever manage to do it, even in the broader arena of BDSM. Here in the Bay area we have one of the largest and most active kink communities in the nation. Only Los Angeles and New York are in the same league. But if there are more than 2000 people active in the scene here I'd be surprised. The three local dungeons here see maybe 100 people each on most Friday and Saturday nights (call it 500 people total in any given weekend). That's only a fraction of the people with BDSM interests in the Bay area though. The fractions in most other areas are probably much smaller.

Is it better than tickling? Probably, but I really don't know.

Well, if your newbies will let themselves be mentored, you're better off there than on the other side of America. Over here, every guy who went to the store yesterday is a seasoned "Master" today, and every woman who's read Beauty is a "lifetime slave."

Oh, that happens everywhere. The Bay area is no exception. Those who get real-life experience tend to have that knocked out of them before too long - usually the first time they try that routine in a public space or one of the local discussion boards.

Well, I have to say that the BDSM community really hasn't been to accepting of the tickling community as a subset - and the tickling community has steadfastly denied that it is part of the BDSM community.

I think that depends on what you mean. The tickling scenes that I've done in public playspaces have almost always been well-received. I think there's more resistance on the tickling side of the equation. The thing is, every well-accepted "subculture" of BDSM actually incorporates other aspects of BDSM into their specialty. Age-players, leatherfolk, pony-play fans, and so on all include some spectrum of broader BDSM activity in their play. If there isn't that crossover then it's hard to get BDSM players to recognize what you do as a subset of what they do.

I nice neutral example might be foot-fethists. There are BDSM foot fetishists who fit just fine in their corner of the larger community. But those foot-fans who don't include any aspect of BDSM are really a separate group, and BDSM folks don't consider them cousins.

A tickling fan who wants to play in a dungeon or participate in local groups will be welcome. However if he's BDSM-averse (as so many pure tickling fans are) then he probably won't be very comfortable. And he won't have much in common with people whose interests are broader than his. Few tickle-fans choose to participate in that scene - perhaps too few to form a true subculture.

The losers have been the tickling community, though - while the BDSM community has developed (and then lost much of) a tradition and a strong network, the tickling community still finds itself essentially in the stone age.

The tickling community's willing separation from BDSM has cut them off from a lot of resources that might have made things easier, yes.

Which is why I think video has to do more for us than it did for BDSM - if you get my drift.

I'm not sure I do. If you mean that more tickling fans need video entertainment as an outlet for their fetish, then that might be true - I'm not sure. If you mean something else though then I don't know that I do follow you.

 

[cinnabar]

Yup, right there with you -
So there's not a lot of money in showing the intimate side of BDSM (as opposed to the ultra-flash, ultra-edgy side), because people who are doing BDSM are still into the big production websites. It's like an add-on. But tickling is different because so few tickling fetishists have ever witnessed a real tickle session, let alone participated in one. I think there's going to come a time when we might want to start thinking about the female side of our community. How many women do you think are out there assuming that if they are not into being strapped down and treated like a prisoner or whatever, they'll never be able to satisfy a male 'ler? I'd bet more than a few, but I'd like to read your take on it too. On the other hand, if any female group must suffer from that, females interested in BDSM must. How many women must fell like if they can't or won't do what they see on Wiredpussy, they don't stand a chance of having a successful BDSM relationship? Let me stop here and, and let you reply ...

(Jumps into the discussoin!)
You bring up an interesting point that I've thought about before. Out of the tens of thousands of registered users here and the many more thousands out there unaware of the existence of this site - I'm betting only a tiny fraction have gotten the chance to experience a real tickling session. It's a sad state of affairs really.

 

[TickleHaven]

This is a very interesting thread. I think the future of tickling videos is grim. The reason I say this is because tickling videos are difficult to produce, and so many producers are trying their hand at the tickle market that any good content is now very watered down. It has recently become very easy to set up a website or clipstore-and therefore so many people are trying it. Clip stores do all the back end stuff, all you have to do is simply plug in content and you are up and running in a few hours. Also, cameras and equipment are increasing in quality and decreasing in price.

The problem here is that it all comes down to the talent, aka ticklish models. And they are hard to come by.

Most of the content out there is really, really lame, and that is due to the models. They simply aren't ticklish, and most of them seem to be faking. You guys would not believe how much content I have that I just can't use, or models I simply sent home. Tickling is still very much underground, and so it is hard to find qualified (attractive and ticklish) talent. Even bondage videos are easier to produce (and that seems way scarier to a model than tickling). With a bondage video, I simply ask the model: will you do this-yes or no? With tickling, they have to be tested, and some ARE ticklish but just not enough, or they have the "silent laughter" etc.

Tickle companies are opening by the day, but also folding by the day.Hopefully mine can last! But again, the reason I think tickling videos will not improve is because there are so many more being produced, and when something is mass produced the quality usually goes down. There may be good content out there, but we have to search harder to find it. I think mine is very good, but my favorite is definitely the OLDER ticklingparadise stuff. Wish I could hire some of those models!!!

 

[SmarterthanU]

You guys would not believe how much content I have that I just can't use, or models I simply sent home. Tickling is still very much underground, and so it is hard to find qualified (attractive and ticklish) talent.

I think this gets to the heart of a lot of it. Take a look at what I refer to as the gold standard for tickling video, Bill and L. L is probably 35 years old. Not "model hot," not super skinny or large breasted, not really by any definition a "model." She's a BDSM submissive (as her pierced nipples will attest, since no one back then had pierced nipples for fashion). All those things aside, she's the most ticklish woman ever to appear in a tickle video. The production is entirely amateur. I defy anyone to name a hotter tickling video. It's light years beyond anything else available.

As long as the emphasis is in the wrong place, i.e., playing to the fantasy of Hollywood-actress-as-tickle-victim, commercial content is going to fall short of the mark every time. Let's ask ourselves truthfully - how many more videos of that type are we interested in buying?

That's why I argue that the future of tickling video is in realism, not fantasy. The market is now glutted with the fantasy stuff, and most of it is horrible. There's enough decent fantasy stuff available to serve that market niche. I'm betting that the first producer who has the courage to take us all the way through a real couple's tickling scene, from the tense anticipation before the bondage to the afterglow that follows the sex, will be the true pioneer.

 

[TickleHaven]

That definitely could be true. But the hang up there is the sex scene. You get into a whole new realm when you start filming sex. Most amatuer models (who are the best as ticklees) would never do a sex scene on film. Plus you would have to pay top dollar for the scene.

Furthermore, when filming full-blown sex, you have to keep very accurate records, maintain 2257 compliance, etc etc. But I agree, that producer WOULD be a true pioneer.

 

[SmarterthanU]

That definitely could be true. But the hang up there is the sex scene. You get into a whole new realm when you start filming sex. Most amatuer models (who are the best as ticklees) would never do a sex scene on film. Plus you would have to pay top dollar for the scene.

Furthermore, when filming full-blown sex, you have to keep very accurate records, maintain 2257 compliance, etc etc. But I agree, that producer WOULD be a true pioneer.

That's why I say amateur is future. The smart tickle vid producer is going to be the one that follows the lead of Home Grown Video, and the like. Forget about models, actors, whatever. Real couples. That's the future.