TICKLE TORTURE - Human rights issues?

[MÿTicklingStudios]

Does the support and practice of tickle torture make us support acts that breach human rights?

example 1: if a tickle model agrees to do a tickle session, and midway through he/she says "STOP" and sounds like he/she means it, and the tickle continues... is this abuse? Are we human rights abusers?

Discuss.

 

[Sarusuke]

Not necessarily. If you let the person know ahead of time that they will be tickled until they are completely defeated by it, they will continue to be tickled regardless of what they say during the shooting, and they agree to it beforehand, then I don't think it's a violation of human rights, it's a mutually agreed to contract. If they don't like it, they probably aren't going to do it again.

Is the issue here the videos your company produces? I think the biggest problem many people have with your stuff in the human rights regard is Southeast Asia's (especially Thailand's) notoriety as a transit center for human trafficking. People don't know if your lees have the personal freedom to reject any request made of them by anyone. If your videos were done in the US, there would probably be a bit less discomfort surrounding them.

 

[MÿTicklingStudios]

Is the issue here the videos your company produces? I think the biggest problem many people have with your stuff in the human rights regard is Southeast Asia's (especially Thailand's) notoriety as a transit center for human trafficking.

No, this wasn't about my companies videos. This is about where we draw the line between a model agreeing to everything before the event, and what happens if in the heat of the moment she yells "stop!".

As for human rights issues in Asia. Yes, I will not disagree with you. There have been cases, terrible cases of breaches of human rights in Asia. However, for those that are familiar with the region will know that these cases are not representative of what occurs there generally. In fact, Thailand is now incresingly conservative and even bars and clubs close at 1am. Thailand is undergoing a reformation in the way that it conducts itself and is ultimately percieved by the rest of the world. As such, a major clean up operation has been underway for the last 2 years. For those that have been there recently and have past experiences to compare to, will know this to be the case.

 

[amk714]

Sarusuke summed up the issue pretty well. When we talk about tickle torture at this forum, we're talking about consensual tickling, unless a fictional story involving nonconsensual tickling is being discussed. None of us are human rights abusers.

 

[milagros317]

In consensual situations, a safeword should be used. Suppose the safeword is "red."

Then the model or ticklee saying "Stop!" or "Mercy!" is just part of the acting. Only when she says "Red!" does it really mean that she can't stand it any more and actually wants it to stop.

Ignoring the safeword is a serious violation of the contract or agreement. When consent is withdrawn, continuation of the tickle torture becomes battery, a criminal offense.

 

[isabeau]

In consensual situations, a safeword should be used. Suppose the safeword is "red."

Then the model or ticklee saying "Stop!" or "Mercy!" is just part of the acting. Only when she says "Red!" does it really mean that she can't stand it any more and actually wants it to stop.

Ignoring the safeword is a serious violation of the contract or agreement. When consent is withdrawn, continuation of the tickle torture becomes battery, a criminal offense.

well said milagros. i agree wholeheartedly. staying stop could mean she doesnt really mean it. but a safe word would show that yes she cant take anymore and please stop. there should always be a safeword just in case.

isabeau

 

[Deuce]

In that situtation it's not just black and white if the mentioned lee has a contract and is being paid to do this. I would hope if your paying someone they know what there getting into and that if they are having trouble completing the video you could just dub portions together to finish your video. But as far as using tickle as a form of torture I don't think anyone in here would support that since I guess were recreational users lol.

 

[Mimi]

Milagros gave the best response to this. So long as a safeword is established and respected, there should be no issue. Ignoring the use of a safeword, or refusing to establish one is unsafe, and is walking down a path to aggravated assault. While most of us do enjoy a good session of real and rather extreme tickle torture, it's only cool if it stays in the boundries of human safety and legal rights. We obviously do not condone literal physical assault.

TIB is a good example of how a ler in a video can truly push a girl to and past her limits of tickle torture, while still keeping it within the boundries of safe play and negotiating legal consent to do exactly that.

Mimi

 

[Redmage]

In consensual situations, a safeword should be used....Ignoring the safeword is a serious violation of the contract or agreement. When consent is withdrawn, continuation of the tickle torture becomes battery, a criminal offense.

I'd agree, with the caveat that consenting adults are free to play without safewords if they wish, provided that everyone involved understands what that means and agrees to it.

Ignoring the use of a safeword, or refusing to establish one is unsafe, and is walking down a path to aggravated assault.

Ignoring, yes. Refusing to use one, no.

"Safe" is an extremely fuzzy word in the sorts of play we do. If we take it as "free from the possibility of physical or emotional harm" then there are a lot of things that reasonable people (including ticklers) enjoy that aren't really "safe." In practical terms, "safe" means simply "within the risk tolerance of everyone involved." It's something that usually needs to be judged from within the scene, by the people involved.

That's why many in the kink community are moving away from "safe, sane, consensual" and toward "risk aware consensual kink." So for example if people choose to play without safewords, and are aware of the risks, then that's their decision to make as consenting adults.

Basically, it's all about each of us deciding for ourselves what is within our comfort zones, but not expecting anyone else to necessarily make the same decisions.

TIB is a good example of how a ler in a video can truly push a girl to and past her limits of tickle torture, while still keeping it within the boundries of safe play and negotiating legal consent to do exactly that.

It's worth pointing out that TIB has tickled gagged models into hysterical tears more than once. It's possible to use a safe signal with a gagged partner, but it would be difficult for any of us watching to determine whether or not that was done. I don't actually know whether or not a safe signal was used in those cases, but as long as the model knew the facts going in I don't think it matters.

 

[Merciless1]

As I see and understand it, if a contract is signed whereas the ticklee agrees in writing that the tickling or tickle session will continue regardless of what the ticklee says no matter what she/he says, then there is no abuse at all since the agreement in writting was made and signed.
If the ticklee dosen't thing she/he can handle it then he/she should not be there or sign the contract in the first place.

M1

 

[MÿTicklingStudios]

"Safe" is an extremely fuzzy word in the sorts of play we do. If we take it [safe] as "free from the possibility of physical or emotional harm" then there are a lot of things that reasonable people (including ticklers) enjoy that aren't really "safe." In practical terms, "safe" means simply "within the risk tolerance of everyone involved." It's something that usually needs to be judged from within the scene, by the people involved.

Exactly the approach taken doing TTSEA sessions and also based on a mutual understanding before the shoot takes place and making sure everybodies expectations of a scene are as accurate as they can be.

 

[Mimi]

I'd agree, with the caveat that consenting adults are free to play without safewords if they wish, provided that everyone involved understands what that means and agrees to it.

I agree 100%, providing the lee has experienced being tied and tickled before and is aware of what is in store. If you trust your ler 100% to respect your safety and truly stop before serious physical or emotional harm is caused, then by all means a safeword is not necessary. But if a lee has never been tied and tickled before, and has no idea just how intense it can be or how they will respond to it, then you're entering into slightly more dangerous and risky territory. Especially if the ler has never tickled that particular lee before and does not know how to read their physical warning signs.

It's worth pointing out that TIB has tickled gagged models into hysterical tears more than once. It's possible to use a safe signal with a gagged partner, but it would be difficult for any of us watching to determine whether or not that was done. I don't actually know whether or not a safe signal was used in those cases, but as long as the model knew the facts going in I don't think it matters.

That is what I was trying to say in my badly worded way. TIB made it perfectly clear to the models exactly what was coming, and negotiated all limits to be both broken and respected beforehand. It was fully understood what was going to transpire, and they consented knowingly to it. TIB may be a sadistic and malicious ler, but he is safe and respectful of the lees regardless of what level of torment he puts them through. And because of that he's earned a respectable reputation and everyone who watches their videos knows that even though the torture can get extreme, the lees are safe and in good hands, in a good controlled atmosphere the whole while.


Mimi

 

[Tidas]

Not providing for a safeword or signal is criminal negligence, also it is potentially assault, or battery. No one should ever conduct scenes where the proper amount of safety is not present. Should you stop everytime she begs for it? No. Should you whenever a safeword is used? Yes. Safety 'signals' are too risky because they cannot always be preformed in tricky bondage or when gagged, and if they are common enough not to be noticed by the viewing public then they are not obvious enough too a tickler who is enjoying what he's doing. Safety is key, and any sort of bondage/torture play without safety is cruel and unlawful.

 

[tcklishredhed04]

Safe Words

First of all, anyone that would do anything to someone that isn't consenting to that certain something, is full of pronouns. Having said that, safe words people! I can't believe the amount of people who don't know what they are! I participate in other alternatives that requires safe words, and going into a session without one is plainly suicide, especially if you are the submissive. They also have contracts now that everyone participating signs, listing all the "legal" activities that will go down, and activities that are just plain off limits. Not only is thia a good idea, it is the only safe way to figure out what it is you really like.

 

[asutickler]

As I see and understand it, if a contract is signed whereas the ticklee agrees in writing that the tickling or tickle session will continue regardless of what the ticklee says no matter what she/he says, then there is no abuse at all since the agreement in writting was made and signed.
If the ticklee dosen't thing she/he can handle it then he/she should not be there or sign the contract in the first place.

M1

Not true... There are certain rights which you can't give up, even with mutual consent.

Here's a pretty good article on the subject:

http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bclawr/42_2/01_FMS.htm

Please note that the formatting doesn't look very good unless you download Boston College's little viewing application.

 

[tickleublue]

re breach of human rights

Hi
The use of a before agreed upon safeword is key here. I have found it helpful to have my "victim'' choose their own safeword and in order to put them at ease I write it down in bold letters on a sheet of paper that I have at hand. I have found that this helps ease the ticklee's mind. I recently had the good fortune to talk a stripper into a session. The safeword she chose was "lapdance" ! Never a dull moment! She was a newbie and we agreed on a 10 minute session unless she srcreamed lapdance which would have stopped the torture. I must say she took it like a trooper. I worked her over pretty good on her belly and size 10 feet. I just used my fingers this time. I asked if she was down for another session and she admitted that after we were done that she was VERY relaxed ( "like she had guzzled a couple of Jack and Cokes",) and she was willing to be tied and tickled again but we would have to decide on a time limit. She agreed to more than ten minutes. I am working on her to agree to let me take pics of the next session. She has to "think about that one" lol . I will keep you posted.
STEVE

 

[Redmage]

Not providing for a safeword or signal is criminal negligence, also it is potentially assault, or battery. No one should ever conduct scenes where the proper amount of safety is not present. Should you stop everytime she begs for it? No. Should you whenever a safeword is used? Yes. Safety 'signals' are too risky because they cannot always be preformed in tricky bondage or when gagged, and if they are common enough not to be noticed by the viewing public then they are not obvious enough too a tickler who is enjoying what he's doing. Safety is key, and any sort of bondage/torture play without safety is cruel and unlawful.

You know, I've found almost everything you say here to be untrue, through direct experience.

First, if both players agree not to use a safeword, then it is neither criminal, nor negligent, nor assault. It's that whole "mutual consent" thing. People have the perfect right to play in any way they both want to.

Safety signals are perfectly usable in strict bondage and/or with gags. I don't favor the "held bell" method (holding something that will make a noise when dropped), because I think it's prone to false signals. The method I use is "three of anything." That is, three quick sounds in succession, three fingersnaps, three taps on my arm, etc. mean "get this gag off, there's something you need to know."

These opinions are based one what is now some 30 years of active participation in BDSM. IF a safeword is agreed upon (and I think that should be assumed unless specifically negotiated otherwise) then it must be respected. But there's nothing carved in stone that says they must be used, or that they must take any particular form.

I participate in other alternatives that requires safe words, and going into a session without one is plainly suicide, especially if you are the submissive. They also have contracts now that everyone participating signs, listing all the "legal" activities that will go down, and activities that are just plain off limits. Not only is thia a good idea, it is the only safe way to figure out what it is you really like.

Again, I think this greatly overstates the case. I've seen people play safely without safewords. I've done it myself.

As for contracts, well, if that's what you like. Nothing wrong with them, though their legal value is somewhere between questionable and zero. Calling them "the only safe way to figure out what it is you really like" is overdone though. People have been figuring out what they like, safely and without contracts, for a long time.

 

[The Sean Man]

I participate in other alternatives that requires safe words, and going into a session without one is plainly suicide, especially if you are the submissive.

Sheesh! And here I thought I was the only 'multi-kink' around here

 

[chrisheaven]

I have to agree with Milagros 317

 

[tcklishredhed04]

Yay! I made a friend!

Sheesh! And here I thought I was the only 'multi-kink' around here

Us freaks gotta stick together lol!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[asutickler]

First, if both players agree not to use a safeword, then it is neither criminal, nor negligent, nor assault. It's that whole "mutual consent" thing. People have the perfect right to play in any way they both want to.

Not exactly. Safeword or no safeword, if the receiving party chooses to call your actions assault you are going to have a difficult time defending yourself. The "rules" of S&M have exactly zero standing, legally speaking. Whether the injured party consents at the time or not they can still elect to press charges against you later for committing a violent act against them.


The same irrelevance of mutual consent can be seen in other areas, as well. Bare-knuckles boxing, for example, is illegal regardless of the venue in which it occurs or any implied, agreed, or even written consent between the participants. Euthanasia is another good example.

 

[lk70]

Whether the injured party consents at the time or not they can still elect to press charges against you later for committing a violent act against them.

Really? I mean sure, they can press charges or sue. Anyone can do that pretty much anytime they want, but isn't it likely that the couples' past behavior would be pretty darn relevant in court?

 

[The Sean Man]

Us freaks gotta stick together lol!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. Can this fellow 'freak' send you a PM?

 

[Redmage]

Sheesh! And here I thought I was the only 'multi-kink' around here

hehe. No, not at all. I don't talk about the other things I do because they tend to make ticklefans a bit twitchy, but it's definitely multi.