First of all a statement to others whom have commented about this thread:
There were some statements made regarding bible thumping (given, I don’t know whether they were directed at me or not, but I would like to clear something up, just in case), I’m not trying to do that. I’m mereley responding to points stated against Christianity by my friend Amnesiac. I’m not attempting to tamper with anyones current beliefs or shove a doctrine down anyones throat. Hope you all understand
P.S. And for the record I think tickling is ok with God in or outside of marriage.
Anyways:
” Maybe the culture that we have NOW are the insecure ones. What I'm entertaining are the POSSIBILITIES. If it WERE possible to have a happy, fulfilling recreational sex life without religious/marital connotations, then why not go for it?”
You’re right on this. And I do believe some people have fullfilling sex lives outside of marriage, but they normally remain faithfull to one partner. I’ve yet to meet a stable individual whom does not. If it is possible I haven’t seen it work yet.
“It would then be fun to chastise God for not mentioning that such a thing was possible in the first place.”
Oh you naughty boy!
”That's the thing about fragility: I don't like it (maybe others do, so I won't get on them). It prevents me from handling shit that comes my way, or it interferes with my ability to do EVERYTHING myself.”
I don’t like being fragile anymore then you do, I wish I could handle everything that comes my way and maintain a stiff upper-lip. But the truth is that we all are in some way, and we all have a hole in our armor no matter how reinforced we make it.
“And taking your view into this matter, God made people fragile...so they mostly need the help of others, INCLUDING him. So he designed flaws so that we would always come running to him. Mechanics do this to your car so you have to keep coming back to them. It's called profiteering. And it's illegal because it's exploitive of another person's weakness.”
Why do we have flaws now? If you don’t have flaws how can you overcome them? Is a life with nothing to gain and nothing to lose from the get-go, worth any kind of reward? If it takes absoloutley nothing to gain a reward then that reward becomes useless to you, and is mereley an object (doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be more then happy to win the lottery
). I guess it’s also debateable that this might be a human flaw as well. I, however, consider it to be one of the greatest human traits there is.
” This one was my fault. I wasn't clear enough. Just because I said that people like this can exist didn't mean that they should be RECKLESS (oh nononononono!) Recklessness is what gets everyone into trouble! Yes it is harmful if you aren't careful, but that doesn't mean it can't EVER work...but God hasn't said that has he? Things that make ya go "Hmmmmmmmmm..."”
No you were perfectly clear, my bad actually, I made my point poorly. What I was trying to say is that if you play with a bomb, no matter how carefull you are with it, you run the risk of blowing yourself up and probably will. I’ve never met a human being that didn’t have a streak of recklessness. And what I was trying to get across with the example of my friend who got HIV, was that wolves wear sheeps clothing all the time, case in point: this guy said he loved her to get her in the sack, had a disease, promptly stopped calling her after they slept together, and yes they used a condom, but not properly. There are people in the world whom are negligent and then there are sociopaths. This guy fell into the latter category. Of course I’m not saying that people who know how to “swing” carefully will always run into someone like that, and I’m not judgeing those who do, I just can’t ignore the danger involved, and the biblical mentionings make sense to me in that context.
”I was referring to abstracts. Potentials. Things like recreational sex, non-marital tickling, other things that aren't God-endorsed that are fun but not necessarily harmful. If you give that up just to get to Heaven, then it all goes to waste. All that potential that is allowed by the laws of physics goes to waste because it never gets used.”
The point I’m making is that if it’s not harmful it is “God-endorsed”. Non-marital tickling is not a problem scripturally or otherwise, that would fall into the categorey of the sins good old humanity made-up, that aren’t in the bible. It all depends on intent. Waste? If it was a tool to teach you with, everything being a learning process of the spirit, even if you aren’t on the path of his word in this life, even if this world ends, how is it a waste?
”Here's a point I've never made but have always wanted to. Why do you Christians look to Heaven as the ultimate goal? Everybody talks about it like its "the Promised Land...gotta get there!" And everyone's so fast to do everything they can to get there, mostly because of what's promised. Sounds like a bribe to me. I don't care HOW good it sounds, the whole principle of being rewarded in some extravagant way for a lifetime of servitude sounds a bit corrupt to me. Y'know, if we have to give up certain luxuries to get to Heaven, why even bother making the luxuries in the first place? It's inefficient.”
I don’t think heaven is eternal bliss. I think of it as a higher state of being, learning, and consciousness. Where we are actually developed enough to stop hurting one another, and are also incapeable of hurting ourselves. I wouldn’t want “Bliss-On-Tap” as quoted by Lucifer in “Devil’s Advocate”. I think that would be inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible. I don’t know.………sounds like a wonderful place to me. I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to go there. As for the aforementioned “luxuries”, I think that falls into the categorey of tools to teach us with. If you don’t give them up here you will in the next life. Which also leads me to ask you a question: What’s the point of death if there is no other place to go to? Why would we die at all? What purpose would it serve? What place would you prefer to go to when you die?
“I'm not even talking about the destruction of Earth. If I spend my life doing good things to get to Heaven, even if that means avoiding action that could solve Earth's problems, I may get to Heaven but that still leaves a lot of people on Earth with a lot of problems...and those problems might just cost them a ride on the Heavenly Express. Now, that seems quite selfish of me to leave shit behind for others to deal with when I could have gotten rid of it myself by breaking the rules.”
This is kind of inconsistent with Gods word, there is nothing I know of in the bible that would be oppossed to you solving the earths problems, in fact you would be more at fault in Gods eyes if you used the Bible as an excuse not to do the right thing. I don’t see how scripture teaches you to do what you’re mentioning, please explain why you feel that way.
“Good question. But he created the flaws in humans that made us get to the point to making the mistakes that fuck up the world. And since he KNEW what would happen, that makes him partly responsible.”
Perhaps you are right about him being partially responsible. We were perfect at one time, we lost it and created our own flaws, even if he did see the future and knew what would come of it he thought we deserved the benefit of the doubt regardless, he allowed us to make that decision for ourselves, allowed us to see if we could better ourselves through self-discovery, because in the long run it has to be proven to us that we do need him.
“Yeah, you can say that he warns us all the time, but that still doesn't make us NATURALLY stronger...doesn't make our brain physiology more capable of dealing with confusion or poor impulse control...it just makes us ignore it. Doesn't make it go away though, and everbody has a breaking point, some less than others.”
Nope it doesn’t make us naturally stronger. We make the choice to ignore our problems or face them. Some people aren’t as strong as others, and some have a small breaking point. Your will and the strength of it all comes down to how much of a shit you really give and how willing you are to give up. We choose to bend over and take it in the ass from our situation, or we choose not to accept it and face it head on, whatever it might be (or die in the process.) That’s what seperates winning from loseing.
”Again, I dunno. If all these pleasures are mediocre and not as good, what the fuck are they DOING here?! Why are they here for us to waste our time on?! Seems like you could get from point A to B a lot quicker without them.”
They are here so we can do one of two things: let them distract us and rule our lives, or practise control and discipline over them. Knowledge without strength is useless and vice-versa. If there is nothing to overcome to receive a reward then the reward is useless. Besides why would God not want us to have any fun while we were down here?
”What about sin? Isn't that baggage that you accumulated in the world? That doesn't seem to go away, not according to the literature.”
No your right, it doesn’t go away until God cleanses your spirit of it. Which removes any and all impurities the world has placed upon it. If your not cleansed in this life, you are in the next, noone eternally suffers. Find yourself a literal translation of the Greek and Hebrew in the Bible and you might agree with me, you won’t find “eternal” or “punishment” in the same sentence I promise you.
”In a way it kind of would be. It would have meant that I spent a lot of time and a lot of work on a plane of existence that doesn't even matter in the long run.”
It matters if it’s necessary for our spiritual growth.
“ It seems kind of like that, where on Earth you;re put through hell so that you eventually grow in some way...but that doesn't make it a good thing. If humans put God through a trial like that, we'd wind up in Cocytus SOOOOOOO fast! But if he does it to us, we should forget how pissed we would be at all the suffering we went through and just be happy. If I found that out at the end I would BEAT HIS ASS!”
I guess that depends on whether or not you think your being put through hell. Also depends on whether you think he is to blame for it. We were perfect earlier in this life, we wanted to separate ourselves from him, people who get hit by a drunk driver don’t normally blame the manufacturer of the car, they blame the guy driving the car. Every manufacturer knows that someone driving their vehicle will eventually die in a car accident, does that make them responsible for people killing each other with it? God allows us to make our choices because he respects us. I wouldn’t want it any other way. Just like a consumer might not be happy with the a dealer saying “I can’t sell it to you because you might get into a car wreck.” And you’d be right by saying “we didn’t ask to buy this piece of junk, and we can’t get a refund after 30 days”, but the first car your parents give you is a piece-of-shit and when you grow up and make your own way you can bye the Mercedes with all the deluxe features you always wanted, except when speaking eternally it never breaks down. People cause each other to suffer for two reasons: Their own selfish desires entice them to, or there is a little fallen angel pulling their strings through seduction. And besides how do you know he (God) never had to be put through the same thing, to get to where he is? It’s not written because it doesn’t really matter, but I think he would have to know us before creating us don’t you?
”In a way yes, because he would know that he was behind it all. He rigged the game, he fixed the plays, so he knows that all these people are happy because of HIM. He made people happy, he saved them, he's the one who gets the praise. Sounds like an egomaniac of untold proportions.”
If that were the case I don’t think he would of given us any kind of will whatsoever, we would all have “Bliss-On-Tap” in heaven right now and thanking him for it and earth and it’s limitations wouldn’t be here at all. He would of simply killed Lucifer, and had it over with. If he had the ego you speak of he wouldn’t have allowed us to walk away from him. He also would of given Adam and Eve a smack on the hand and a “don’t do that again”, instead of what they wanted: the freedom to sin if they so desired.
"We may get happy, but he gets the credit, and the merit. Sounds like in the end we get bupkis either way, but are happy about it...is THAT really what it's all about? being happy? Is that the limit of our vision or experience?"
Lol! I certainley hope not, I’ve already told you what I think heaven is.
”GOD: Of course, the advice will be cryptic and vague and mostly told in the form of parables, so it won't be easy, you'll have to figure it out.”
If you read them you wouldn’t find anything cryptic or vague about them, they are pretty simple and easy to understand actually.
“MAN:...well, what if I don't have a lot of time to figure it out.”
We have eternity to figure it out, even if we don’t do so on this earth.
“MAN: Oh, I see...uh, this fun thing? Is it always in the Holy Spirit?”
Well the best parts of it are, but fun doesn’t always mean speaking in toungues and prayer, there are other ways we can have fun, he doesn’t ask us to spend everywakeing moment thinking about him. As long as we aren’t harming others or ourselves in the process we're not sinning.
”MAN: Well...is there any joy that isn't part of the Holy Spirit that ISN'T harmful or sinful? Y'know, kind of in-between stuff?”
”GOD: Well....uh...technically...yes, there is.”
”MAN: What's wrong with that?”
”GOD: Well...I don't really endorse that kind of thing y'see? It's not something I'm a part of so I'd just-“
”MAN: You mean, since you;re not behind it, you don't want us to do it.”
Him being behind it has nothing to do with it. There is fun that hurts you, and there’s fun that doesn’t.
”MAN: Well I mean that's pretty stupid to say that. I mean if there's swing sets out there that don't say "God, Inc." on them but are STILL safe, why can't we play on them? Just because you didn't make them?”
God’s law only covers the harmful stuff; if it can’t hurt us then there isn’t a law against it.
”MAN: Yeah, but why does EVERYTHING gotta do that? Can;t you have fun for the sake of having fun? I mean, just because you create something doesn't mean everything's all about you. David Mamet creates his plays that doesn't mean he's gotta be in every scene or every action has to revolve around him!”
Your right, and God doesn’t expect that of us, everything we do doesn’t have to revolve aound him, he asks for very little of our time.
”D.A.: Now then, why do you claim that you are blameless in the death of little Cindy Marvell?
GOD: Because I gave her fair warning.
D.A.: Fair warning? None of the eyewitnesses can place you at the scene at the time she was struck down and killed by the bus on that day. How are you exempt from culpability?
GOD: *sigh* I had warned Cindy long ago to watch out for buses and cars when she crossed the street. She obviously didn't listen.
D.A.: The bus in question had faulty brake lines. Not only that, but the driver has been implicated in many cases of reckless driving and indicates that he did not see Cindy as she crossed the street.
GOD: Hey, I TOLD her to look out for buses, that means all buses: big buses, little buses, runaway buses, buses driven by reckless drivers. Not my fault.
D.A.: The eyewitnesses have told us that Cindy did look both ways before she ventured out.
GOD: She obviously wasn't looking hard enough or else she wouldn't have been hit.
D.A.: God, I would like to remind you that Cindy was blind her left eye, a birth defect that YOU installed upon her before birth. She looked both ways, but was nevertheless incapable of seeing out of the one eye that could have spared her.
GOD: Then she should have compensated for it. I did my job.
D.A.: During this accident that you saw coming, did you at any time try to pull her out of the way?
GOD: Nope. I gave her a warning, and she obviously didn't listen. I don't do your work for you.
D.A.: That falls under "depraved indifference to human life", Mr. Jehovah.
DEFENSE: Objection your honor! Page 83, section 5, subsection 9, paragraph 12, verses 3-15 of the Biblical law clearly indicate that my client, upon providing adequate council in advance to dependant renders him immune to any and all prosecution or blame for any circumstance that may befall the subject.
D.A.: A book that the defendant WROTE your honor!
GOD: Hey, it's gooooooood to be the king.”
You’re failing to place accountability on the public transit system for not checking their brakelines. God didn’t invent buses. And what was wrong with ears that she couldn’t hear the bus coming, was she def as well? And why were her parents allowing her to cross the street on her own if she couldn’t navigate them herself? Was she sneaking out? I know this is just an analogy you’re making, but you can’t remove human accountability for pre-mature death. And besides what makes you so sure that God didn’t warn her in some way? Or her parents? Or the Driver?
”God is talking to a Man as he ascends the Stairway to Heaven (no Zeppelin playing, surprisingly).
MAN: So this is it huh?
GOD: Yes it is. Been waiting a while for it eh?
MAN: Oh yeah. Long time. Worked hard to get here.
GOD: Ah, you were a good man, you were a shoo-in a long time ago.
MAN: I was?
GOD: Mmm-hmmm.
MAN: Well that's good. What's waiting for me up there?
GOD: Peace, love, enlightement and joy.
MAN: Ah, that's swell. Hey, uh, I got a question.
GOD: Shoot.
MAN: Back down there, I was still working on my house...y'know the one I'd been saving for forty years to get? Well, I didn't finish it and I was wondering, will that be up there waiting for me? I got some ideas about the new roof-"
GOD: Oh nonononono, you won't have to worry about that up here.
MAN: What? You mean it's not there?
GOD: Of course not.
MAN: Why not?!
GOD: You;re in Heaven, you won't need it anymore.
MAN: Won't NEED it? I never got the chance to USE it!
GOD: Why does that matter?
MAN: Why does-!? I spent forty years saving up for that house! I worked two jobs while going to school to get my degree to get a career to make the money to GET that house! My wife LEFT me because she said I was neglecting her, when REALLY all I was doing was working to get the money to BUILD that house for us! I lost sleep, money, my wife, my friends and forty years of my life for that house and now I can't even have it?! I wasn't even DONE with the fucking thing!
GOD: That-That's all behind you now, that is an Earthly thing, it's all left behind-
MAN: You damn RIGHT it;s left behind! That's my house dammit! The thing I've been working for!
GOD: You've left it behind for something better!
MAN: What's better?!
GOD: Peace, love, joy-
MAN: I know, you told me! You said I was gonna get that anyway if I was gonna get up here because I was a good man! I did'n HAVE to do all of what I did to get up here and I STILL would have gotten that! What about the 40 years I slaved away that I didn't have to? What about that?
GOD: It built character, it made you stronger in spirit.
MAN: No, it built my house! Don't I get any fucking compensation for that?! I want my life back dammit, I want something for those 40 years!”
Frankly this man would be a moron if he didn’t see that he couldn’t build as many houses as he pleased on the other side. And besides if he wanted to build that house, maybe he should of looked for a better job so he could buy it sooner, don’t you think if it was so important to him that he sacrificed his relationship with his wife, that he would of found a way? And besides the house (finished or not) is on earth, and he is in heaven. I sincerley doubt he would care at that point. If he used a little common sense he might of known that he would be close to dieing by the time he bought the house anyway, so I wouldn’t see what he’d be complaining about.
Anyway:
”Another man steps forward.
MAN 2: You won't get it.
MAN: Who are you?
MAN 2: Eh, hellbound castoff.”
Is the hell your reffering to Tarturus (Prison of the Nephilium), Sheol (The Abode of the dead), Gehenna (The Jerusalem City Dump), or Hadees (Unseen)? Or do you believe all the unbiblical and twisted paintings of what it looks like and all the myths are the same hell that the bible speaks of?
”MAN: Shit. What for?
MAN 2: Ah, technicality. Slept around without getting married.
MAN: Oh, broke a lot of hearts?
MAN 2: Not really, I just...didn't get married. No one ever bitched to me about anything.”
Let’s say hypothetically that this guy caused no damage to anyone, or himself (which I don’t think is possible) by doing what your mentioning, don’t you think God would understand what makes this man work, and see him through it? Or do you think he would cast him off and say, “Sorry you fucked up”. Maybe other Christians have painted this picture for you, but it’s not the God I know.
”GOD: Hey, I told you that was against the rules and you didn't listen, so you got what you deserved.
MAN 2: Yeah, but I didn't hurt anybody, that's gotta count for something.
GOD: Doesn't matter, it's against the rules and that's what counts.”
Uh-uh, for it to be against the rules he would have had to harm someone, even if he didn’t he’s capable of being forgiven even after death.
”MAN 2: Yeah, but that's a rule that doesn't make sense...it doesn't accomplish anything except uniformity.
GOD: I don't have to explain myself to you, sinner.
MAN 2: See, here's the thing I don't get.
MAN: What?
MAN 2: You got all this stuff going down on Earth right? And we got all these frailties that influence what we do right?
MAN: Right.
MAN 2: Now glowrod here says that we have to do all these things in order to get to Heaven. But he doesn't get rid of the things that get in our way, he just tells us to ignore the shit, as though we could make it go away if we want to, right?”
The things that get in our way, and how we deal with them proves what kind of people we really are. And no you don’t have to do all these things to get to heaven, you can do everything in the book with no love in your heart for Christ and still be no more blameless then Chris Farley and John Belushi. God forgives us our sins, and helps us to understand ourselves when we die. Some of us are in need of more learning when the time comes and some of us are not. Those whom are truly punished are those whom have had a life full of punishing others (Hitler comes to mind), and even these are temporary or “age-during” if you want a literal translation.
”MAN 2: What I don't get is...if you take 1000 people and put 'em on Earth with all these frailties, not all of 'em are gonna make it back to Heaven, may case in point. So why bother putting them on Earth in the first place? Why not cut your losses and leave Earth out of the equation, just keep everybody here and keep all 1000 people? It's inefficient.”
We all do make it back to heaven according to the doctrine I believe in. It’s only a matter of how quickly.
Peace
-Phil
