Tickling the limits and the rules of engagement

[skelyrata]

Coach orders swimmer to do 10 more laps, even though the swimmer is clearly exhausted and whines that she can't make it, still, somehow she finds strength out of nowhere, and she makes the extra ten laps. She feels excited and amazing because she discovered her body could be pushed beyond what she thought possible.

Was the coach right to push the swimmers beyond her limits?

If a ticklee is laughing out hard, soaked in tears, out of breath, and screaming the safeword, but experience tells the tickler she can go a little bit longer, should he go for it and push her beyond her limits?

Limits and safewords are a very important aspect of our fetish, our fantasies and roleplaying game, and it is a major topic of discussion on this forum, but it seems to me that there hasn't been a discussion that focused directly on all the aspects around limits, safewords and what I call now the rules of engagement.

I will elaborate on my personal experiences later, but first I want to open the thread for debate.

 

[BlackestLily]

I guess that's a dynamic to be decided by the lee and ler.

Normally I would automatically say, "Respect the safeword!" But after having JUST read a thread on fetlife on people who prefer not to use safewords because they have a trust relationship with the person who is topping them to know their limits, my opinion has swayed a little.

You discuss it before play, and you listen to what the person who is bottoming/leeing wants. No changing the rules in the middle of the game. If they say they wouldn't mind their limits pushed, even at the shouting of a safeword, then by all means play that way. But if you never ask them and have this discussion, it is my personal belief you should automatically default to ceasing IMMEDIATELY when a safeword is said.

 

[rhiannon]

When I hear BDSM-subs say "I'm a real sub, I don't need a safeword", I know when the dom comes in with a chain saw they would most likely ask for one.

Everybody has their limits. And sometimes we don't know where they are. If WE don't, how could somebody else? Experience may be all well and dandy, but maybe for some reason TODAY the lee isn't able to go further.

Somebody who ignores a safeword has, imho, disqualified him/herself for now and all times from safe, sane and consentual BDSM play, might it be breath play, tickling or whatever.

If a lee and ler decide not to use a safeword, I am okay with that only if they know each other and their reaction very very well, not if they only play with each other every other year or so.

Personally I have made the experience that a missing safeword does nothing but obstruct the ler if he is one that is sensitive towards the lee's need (If he isn't he shouldn't be playing without a safeword anyways), because he can never let himself go and has to constantly check and make sure everything is alright.

The swimming example is not a good example. The swimmer could always have NOT done it and got out of the damn water. The restrained lee does not have that chance. In the end, it was the swimmer's own decision. In case of the lee, it's forced upon them.

 

[LD_Tickler]

Not really sure what kind of debate can happen on this subject. Safe words offer a certain safety net and safety is good. Doing away with safewords and going for the coach/swimmer strategy also has its advantages and people who know what they're doing can choose that if they want to.

It's up to the people involved, either is fine.

Personally I'm more comfortable erring on the side of caution.

 

[skelyrata]

Not really sure what kind of debate can happen on this subject. Safe words offer a certain safety net and safety is good. Doing away with safewords and going for the coach/swimmer strategy also has its advantages and people who know what they're doing can choose that if they want to.

It's up to the people involved, either is fine.

Personally I'm more comfortable erring on the side of caution.

Well I am hoping to have a debate about personal taste as ticklees, ticklers.

Too many times I have read posts about people complaining that clips are not too intense or the tickler did not tickle the ticklee over the edge, but on the other hand you have members that start raising the safeword flag or the non consensual flag.

I just turned 4 years as a tickling video producer, and my experience has been that many models are afraid of true tickle torture and start saying the safeword when it just starts tickling a bit. Then there are the few ones that hold on to their guts and use the safeword only for emergency.

Over the years I have modified the safeword system and basically I use it more as an indicator that the model is at braking point and while keeping eye contact with her I keep tickling for a few more seconds. Let her catch her breath, and see she is actually thrilled that she made it that long.

Another trick that I use sometimes is put value to the safeword, for example she loses $25 everytime she uses the safeword. That motivates her to hold on longer.

Of course, this is all talked and discussed before session starts, and never done on the first session, unless is a more professional model that knows what is at hand. So far it has given me great results and more fluid and intense videos.

Now here I am talking about the limits on tickling only.

There are other limits that are sacred, and vary from model to model, limits like spreads or no spreads, full nude, or just topless, suck her boobs or not even scratch them, vibrators, fingering, etc, all those limits are solid as rock.

Some people interpret that when they see a model tickled tortured shaking screaming and crying it has to be non consensual, and they don't get that that is what a tickle torture video session is suppose to be, twisting, struggling, and laughing to tears, waving her body out of control.

I know that this is one of those issues that has no right answer, but I wanted to see if debating about it as a forum and as a community we can understand better our gameboard.

 

[rhiannon]

Another trick that I use sometimes is put value to the safeword, for example she loses $25 everytime she uses the safeword. That motivates her to hold on longer.

Good system I think! I usually tie my safeword to a bet, so I am not as likely to say it if I don't really need it.

 

[Tickle Touch]

"Tiered" safewords

Choosing to ignore a safeword "for her own good" is just a bad idea. One can find him/herself on track for a prison term thinking like that ;-) As others have said, it can be done in an established relationship with lots of trust. But, in my opinion, the real problem is that tickling--by its very nature--has two levels of consent. Lumping both of those into only one word is where the problem lies.

Some philosophy, as background:

In my mind, one of the most exciting things about tickle torture is that we basically start where "normal" BDSM ends. In more common BDSM play (pain), it's expected that when the sub finds herself unable to contain her physical reaction, it's time to back off (of course, this is a whopping over-generalization, but bear with me). Watch a good flogging for an example. The top is swinging away smoothly, with satisfying thwacks of the leather across her back. He ramps up the intensity, mixing some "sting" strokes in with the "thud," and after a particularly impactful swing, the bottom cringes a little and her knees bend in reaction. How often do you see the top, even though the bottom hasn't said a safeword, stop or back off a bit? You'll see him step up and caress her back, or lay the leather across her for a moment, etc., or at least go gentle for a few strokes.

Of course, a good reason for that pause is to help the victim ramp up her tolerance and take more, but my point remains. If you go to a dungeon party and swing away on your bound, thrashing sub while she cries out in pain and screams for you to stop, you will at least get dungeon monitor attention, if not open interference from other party-goers (maybe police?). "Normal" BDSM stops when the recipient is unable to contain her physical reaction.

We ticklers, however, tend to start with the victim out of control. So questions like this are natural, since we aim for irresistible, uncontrollable reactions.

I handle the balance between torture and responsibility by using a "tiered" safeword approach.

• "Mercy" from my victim means she is overwhelmed, desperately wants the tickling to stop (as all good 'lees should), and understands that I might or might not respect that wish. She is here to be tickled, after all.
• "Red" or "Safeword" is a real safeword. It doesn't mean, "This tickles so bad, please stop," it means, "I'm leaving. I don't care if you are disappointed, or if I ruin your shoot. I'm leaving. Right the f*ck NOW!"

In the context of a tickle video shoot, "red" from a model means, "I don't want to get paid, I just want to leave. You can use the footage you already have, and you don't have to pay me, but I have to stop this, right now." It's a serious thing for a model to do, and no one has ever used her safeword with me. But I always make sure my models (or play partners) know that she doesn't get to say "red" just because it tickles a lot. There's no such thing as getting tickled too much, when a sub is with me. "Red" doesn't mean, 'let's do something else." It means, "I, the submissive, am inflicting my will upon you, the dominant. Untie me."

So, with an optional "mercy" word in play, plus an honest-to-goodness safeword, that lets me size up a sub/model and aim for one of three "consent zones."

1. "If you say 'Mercy,' I'll stop, but I hope you don't say it."
2. "You can say 'Mercy,' but if I think you are abusing it, I'll just ignore you, or probably tickle you even more."
3. "If this is getting too intense for you, so you are thinking about saying 'red,' you can tell me when I stop every few minutes to give you a break. Until then, you're gonna get tickled." ("Mercy" doesn't work.)

Interestingly, I tend to use #3 with the most experienced/submissive models, and sometimes with the new ones. If I think a new-to-the-scene model will respond better with less control, I negotiate straight to #3. Of course, if she doesn't agree to the "zone" I request, I'll give her one with more control.

In my experience, negotiation is key as always, but having two "magic words" with tiered importance, gives me the chance to push my victim's envelope, ethically.

Undef

P.S. In case it isn't obvious: in this context, for simpler communication I use female pronouns for the bottom/sub and male for the top/dominant. I do this simply because I top in my scenes, I am male, and generally play with females. Please take no exception if you happen to prefer one of the other gender combinations.

 

[BellaRisa]

Choosing to ignore a safeword "for her own good" is just a bad idea. One can find him/herself on track for a prison term thinking like that ;-) As others have said, it can be done in an established relationship with lots of trust. But, in my opinion, the real problem is that tickling--by its very nature--has two levels of consent. Lumping both of those into only one word is where the problem lies.

Some philosophy, as background:


I handle the balance between torture and responsibility by using a "tiered" safeword approach.

• "Mercy" from my victim means she is overwhelmed, desperately wants the tickling to stop (as all good 'lees should), and understands that I might or might not respect that wish. She is here to be tickled, after all.
• "Red" or "Safeword" is a real safeword. It doesn't mean, "This tickles so bad, please stop," it means, "I'm leaving. I don't care if you are disappointed, or if I ruin your shoot. I'm leaving. Right the f*ck NOW!"

In the context of a tickle video shoot, "red" from a model means, "I don't want to get paid, I just want to leave. You can use the footage you already have, and you don't have to pay me, but I have to stop this, right now." It's a serious thing for a model to do, and no one has ever used her safeword with me. But I always make sure my models (or play partners) know that she doesn't get to say "red" just because it tickles a lot. There's no such thing as getting tickled too much, when a sub is with me. "Red" doesn't mean, 'let's do something else." It means, "I, the submissive, am inflicting my will upon you, the dominant. Untie me."

So, with an optional "mercy" word in play, plus an honest-to-goodness safeword, that lets me size up a sub/model and aim for one of three "consent zones."

1. "If you say 'Mercy,' I'll stop, but I hope you don't say it."
2. "You can say 'Mercy,' but if I think you are abusing it, I'll just ignore you, or probably tickle you even more."
3. "If this is getting too intense for you, so you are thinking about saying 'red,' you can tell me when I stop every few minutes to give you a break. Until then, you're gonna get tickled." ("Mercy" doesn't work.)

Interestingly, I tend to use #3 with the most experienced/submissive models, and sometimes with the new ones. If I think a new-to-the-scene model will respond better with less control, I negotiate straight to #3. Of course, if she doesn't agree to the "zone" I request, I'll give her one with more control.

In my experience, negotiation is key as always, but having two "magic words" with tiered importance, gives me the chance to push my victim's envelope, ethically.

Undef

P.S. In case it isn't obvious: in this context, for simpler communication I use female pronouns for the bottom/sub and male for the top/dominant. I do this simply because I top in my scenes, I am male, and generally play with females. Please take no exception if you happen to prefer one of the other gender combinations.

Great post, I agree 100% as a producer and a 'lee 😎 .

"Respect the safeword" is a hill I'll die on. That swimmer that had the extra 10 laps in her probably wouldn't allow herself to drown from exhaustion just to please her coach; if she really couldn't go any further she'd likely stop swimming, frowny-faced coach or not. No, I'm not equating the danger of drowning with an intense tickling session; still, no one truly knows what's up with my body and mind except me, and I prefer not putting pressure on my 'ler/Top to be a mind-reader along with everything else 😉. I've rarely used a safeword, especially with my regular play-partner who knows me almost as well as I know myself. In fact, there's one particular situation where I've been known to panic at first and call out the safeword (very unlike me), and we've agreed its fine to keep going unless it's said three times. But it's there, he knows it and I know it, and the whole "oh I trust him sooo much I don't need a safeword!" sounds lovely and submissive on paper but I've noticed it's a little different in reality with every play couple I've met.

 

[rhiannon]

"Respect the safeword" is a hill I'll die on. That swimmer that had the extra 10 laps in her probably wouldn't allow herself to drown from exhaustion just to please her coach; if she really couldn't go any further she'd likely stop swimming, frowny-faced coach or not. No, I'm not equating the danger of drowning with an intense tickling session; still, no one truly knows what's up with my body and mind except me, and I prefer not putting pressure on my 'ler/Top to be a mind-reader along with everything else . I've rarely used a safeword, especially with my regular play-partner who knows me almost as well as I know myself. In fact, there's one particular situation where I've been known to panic at first and call out the safeword (very unlike me), and we've agreed its fine to keep going unless it's said three times. But it's there, he knows it and I know it, and the whole "oh I trust him sooo much I don't need a safeword!" sounds lovely and submissive on paper but I've noticed it's a little different in reality with every play couple I've met.

Now it's my turn to say "Great post!" 🙂 I totally agree with this!

 

[solescratcher99]

I've found with some lees that if I give them the option of safewording, they usually won't. They'll go completely batshit and will never say the safeword. However, if we're sitting around and the tickling is more spontaneous, they're more likely to use the safeword.

If its someone whose really REALLY terrified of being tickled and is worried about losing control or peeing themselves, I sort of do the same thing you do with the $25 thing but with tickling. Every time she says the safeword, I add 5 minutes to the 20 minutes I was going to tickle them. If she has to be untied to get up and go to the bathroom, I add 15 minutes.

The best time I had with this is when my exe's girlfriend and I tickled her for about two hours one New Years. The tickling was more spontaneous at first, but then we threw this one in after we started. She safeworded to go to the bathroom once and after she was finished we got right back on her.

This strategy is definitely a keeper!😀

 

[milagros317]

IMO, it is best to have a slow word and a safeword. The safeword should be respected, or that will be the last time we ever play,

 

[Leo tickles]

The slow word and the safe word are two different things.

Personally, if I produced videos, I'd stop when I heard the safe word.

In my experience, with my submissive, it depends on what we are doing. She's only used her safe word once, and that wasn't for tickling.

Anyways, I see a safe word as something to be honored at all times, unless specifically discussed before you engage in play that the 'lee wants to be pushed just a little more.

 

[Mike3355]

Way i see it, once the safeword is used, you really do need to stop within about 20 seconds. You never can be to careful. The lee maybe using safeword due to lack of air. In which case continueing to push her to her limits may do more harm and mistrust than what it's worth.

 

[rhiannon]

Every time she says the safeword, I add 5 minutes to the 20 minutes I was going to tickle them. If she has to be untied to get up and go to the bathroom, I add 15 minutes.

How is hat supposed to work if the safeword means STOP?

Way i see it, once the safeword is used, you really do need to stop within about 20 seconds.

Actually, once the safeword is used, you really need to stop immediately!

 

[natural tickler]

I think it also depends on the experience of the 'ler/Top.. because from dealing with all kinds of lees, and their tolerance levels, and the techniques you use, you can tell when the lee is done, or ready to advance to another level...

All lees at one point have always wondered where the breaking point/ceiling is, and sometimes using a safeword doesn't always clearly define what that point is

my 2 cents

 

[Sunriseticklee]

Great question, and great replies. Being a basketball coach, I see the point, somewhat, but I don't like the analogy. I agree with others who said that it isn't quite the same. We motivate and push our players, but if the player needs to stop, we let them. See how long my job lasts if a child says they can't breathe, and I say I don't care and force them to keep going. It just isn't going to wash!

Communication is very important. It is up to the lee and the ler to discuss and set up ground rules and safewords if necessary.

Personally, my husband and I don't really use safewords (anymore), but he knows me inside and out, and I trust that he will take care of me. If anyone else were playing with us (regardless if I was the top or bottom or whatever) we would definitely use and respect the boundaries that are set.

Complete and utter lack of control is not for everyone, although when I am in the mood for it, I hate it... and I love it. BUT When I'm done, I'm done... and there is usually a legitimate reason for stopping (but even if there wasn't... so what). If someone tries to force me to keep going.... See how well you can tickle with broken fingers. 😀

 

[solescratcher99]

How is hat supposed to work if the safeword means STOP?

And it does. It means stop to have a break. 90% of the time people use it is when they need to catch their breath, they have a cramp or forgot to use the bathroom, IMPE. I'm not sure if you're purposefully misinterpreting what was said or you just have your own idiosyncratic explanation about what a safeword is, but a safeword doesn't mean the session itself is completely over. Also, if you read the post more holistically, you will notice this is within the context of a time frame that's decided beforehand. The safeword is said and we take a break but the session itself lasts longer.

 

[Sunriseticklee]

And it does. It means stop to have a break. 90% of the time people use it is when they need to catch their breath, they have a cramp or forgot to use the bathroom, IMPE. I'm not sure if you're purposefully misinterpreting what was said or you just have your own idiosyncratic explanation about what a safeword is, but a safeword doesn't mean the session itself is completely over. Also, if you read the post more holistically, you will notice this is within the context of a time frame that's decided beforehand. The safeword is said and we take a break but the session itself lasts longer.

Hmmm.... It's hard to debate the meaning, when people see it as different things (hense the communication before hand). When I have ever used a safeword, that was it. I was done. It had nothing to do with not being able to breathe or whatever... either it was:

If I want a break, I ask for one. So if it tickles too much, I'll say uncle... but that just means- I'm gonna KILL you... Please keep going!

Safeword reasons for me:
1. Pure and utter exhaustion- You'll know if this is the case. I have already stopped laughing and moving. I'm just laying there breathing and looking at you. More than likely, you will stop yourself.
2. Pain- Not that the ler is hurting me (although, it happens sometimes), but when you thrash around that much, there is only so much your muscles and joints can take. I gotta be able to work the next day.
3. Fear of hurting the ler. I have been completely tied up and still managed to injure a ler. Also, if I see the ler is moving stiffly, or is trying to mask that they are exhausted or hurting- I have said the safeword. (You know how stubborn some lers are. *smh)

So... hopefully you'll see my point of view. I do see yours. I mean... technically, you do stop. You just mean for it to be a break instead of total stoppage. And if you're lees are good with it.... then "shrug", that is the understanding you have with your lees. Advise: JUST make sure they are clear on it beforehand.

 

[BellaRisa]

Yup

It means stop to have a break. 90% of the time people use it is when they need to catch their breath, they have a cramp or forgot to use the bathroom, IMPE...a safeword doesn't mean the session itself is completely over. Also, if you read the post more holistically, you will notice this is within the context of a time frame that's decided beforehand. The safeword is said and we take a break but the session itself lasts longer.

Hmmm.... It's hard to debate the meaning, when people see it as different things (hense the communication before hand). When I have ever used a safeword, that was it. I was done. It had nothing to do with not being able to breathe or whatever... either it was:

If I want a break, I ask for one. So if it tickles too much, I'll say uncle... but that just means- I'm gonna KILL you... Please keep going!

Safeword reasons for me:
1. Pure and utter exhaustion- You'll know if this is the case. I have already stopped laughing and moving. I'm just laying there breathing and looking at you. More than likely, you will stop yourself.
2. Pain- Not that the ler is hurting me (although, it happens sometimes), but when you thrash around that much, there is only so much your muscles and joints can take. I gotta be able to work the next day.
3. Fear of hurting the ler. I have been completely tied up and still managed to injure a ler. Also, if I see the ler is moving stiffly, or is trying to mask that they are exhausted or hurting- I have said the safeword. (You know how stubborn some lers are. *smh)

So... hopefully you'll see my point of view. I do see yours. I mean... technically, you do stop. You just mean for it to be a break instead of total stoppage. And if you're lees are good with it.... then "shrug", that is the understanding you have with your lees. Advise: JUST make sure they are clear on it beforehand.

In my experience both of these safeword interpretations are common. "RED", in all its stop-everything finality, does immediately end that scene. However, if the reason for the word can be rectified ( cramp massaged out, kitten removed from lee's face, whatever) quite often play starts again, and whether that's considered a new session or simply a continuance is up to the players. One might ask then, why not just say the slow-down word instead; all I know is the one time I had to safeword because of a very sudden raging Charley Horse (seriously OW 😱 ) in my upper thigh, the last thing on my mind was whether to scream RED or YELLOW or OW MY THIGH; RED was what came out and the fastest to say, and about 20 minutes later play resumed no harm no foul 🙂

 

[skelyrata]

Safeword does not replace instincts

And what happens when the ticklee forgets to say the safeword?

She is trashing, twisting, laughing, her face is red as magma, she is laughing with her guts, crusing, struggling very violent, but the tickler hasn't heard the safeword yet, and he is impressed of how much torture this girl can take, until she brakes the restrains kicks him away and run hysterical to the bathroom crying.

The tickler run after her worried, asking "what?!!!!" and she after lots of screaming, cursing and insults, she finds the right words to let him know that she was past her limit a long time ago and that she wasn't laughing out of tickling, she was screaming for her life.

The tickler, also freaking out here, say "You never said the safeword! I thought you were holding on to all your strength!"

After the initial drama calms down, both tickler and ticklee sit down and talk and she says that after a point she couldn't think or talk and totally forgot about the safeword, or anything else, the only thing happening inside her was the torture.

They come to an understanding that there wasn't anybody to blame here, the tickler was following the Rules of Engagement established before she session started, but it illustrates that safeword should not replace eyes, ears and instincts.

 

[BellaRisa]

And what happens when the ticklee forgets to say the safeword?

She is trashing, twisting, laughing, her face is red as magma, she is laughing with her guts, crusing, struggling very violent, but the tickler hasn't heard the safeword yet, and he is impressed of how much torture this girl can take, until she brakes the restrains kicks him away and run hysterical to the bathroom crying.

The tickler run after her worried, asking "what?!!!!" and she after lots of screaming, cursing and insults, she finds the right words to let him know that she was past her limit a long time ago and that she wasn't laughing out of tickling, she was screaming for her life.

The tickler, also freaking out here, say "You never said the safeword! I thought you were holding on to all your strength!"

After the initial drama calms down, both tickler and ticklee sit down and talk and she says that after a point she couldn't think or talk and totally forgot about the safeword, or anything else, the only thing happening inside her was the torture.

They come to an understanding that there wasn't anybody to blame here, the tickler was following the Rules of Engagement established before she session started, but it illustrates that safeword should not replace eyes, ears and instincts.

Of course safewords should never replace common sense and simply paying attention; nor should a Top be so arrogant and full of himself as to put his "vast experience and instincts" above all else. There needs to be a healthy combination or there's going to be trouble.

 

[goddess_nemesis]

Overall, this reinforces the importance of communication between a ler and a lee, to establish boundaries, what you're comfortable with, what a safeword means and how it should be used.

IMO, it is best to have a slow word and a safeword. The safeword should be respected, or that will be the last time we ever play,

Personally, I'm the same way. I follow Yellow/Red system where Yellow means to slow down. I don't want the ler to stop, but the intensity needs to be decreased. Red, however, to me means to stop - to give me a minute or so without tickling to catch my breath.

Anything else I usually am able to let my ler know like if my arm's starting to hurt from the way it's restrained to the bed or if I need to use the bathroom.

 

[tommytikl]

I've always played with a tiered system,
Yellow and Red.

Yellow is just slow down a second, let me cough, breath whatever...but don't stop tickling just reduce or move places.

Red is STOP right now! And everything stops.

Having the yellow has saved many sessions for me where a red or safeword would have reset the scene/play too much but the yellow allows the lee a safety net.

Btw, if you don't respect the safeword or the lee gets really upset then you won't have to worry about playing with them again...

 

[WheresThe Clip?]

I speak as someone who has sessioned mainly as a Male Lee, on many occasions with female dommes (but currently with my girlfriend). However as my girlfriend is hardly the most natural domme (but does try bless her), my comments relate to the former.

Now I have gone into sessions telling the domme that I don't want a safeword, because I have wanted the full tickle torture experience. On all occasions they have ignored me, by telling me at the start that XXXX is going to be my safeword (like it or not), or play along but periodically stop to ask me am I okay. As I have gotten older and hopefully more intelligent I have realised they were right to do this. The reason being (Drumroll): SAFEWORDS ARE FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE TICKLER, NOT THE TICKLEE.

Now to answer Skel's point about what if they are so far gone they can't mouth their safeword, I would say you shouldn't be taking anyone that far, first time out, as the proferred safeword is no protection in law.

One way I have thought about changing the dynamic here, so that the Lee can't just jump ship at the first opportunity, but can do so if they really need to, is to agree beforehand a punishment for using the safeword more than once. In my case (and this is only if I go back to visiting dommes again) it would be a caning , or having my mouth washed out with soap and water. Two things I have experienced in 'play' before but wouldn't choose to do again in a hurry.

Also bear in mind (and I am not trying to be deliberately gross here), but the Lee may really want to be tickle tortured to tears/breaking point etc., but also have a genuine reason for needing to use their safeword (such as an imminent bowel movement).