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Twelve reasons why gay people should not be allowed to get married

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kyhawkeye said:
God is no 'projection.' I've seen his work. I've seen people healed and lived changed. I can see His work all around me. Trying to prove God doesn't exist is as crazy as the section in Hitchhiker where they 'prove God doesn't exist.' God is beyond logic. It requires faith. It requires action. It requires discipline. It requires what too many (esp. in the USA) aren't do...humble themselves.

Amen. 🙂

Testimonial evidence abounds. Millions claim that God has touched their hearts, cured their illnesses and improved their lives. Atheists refuse to acknowledge this evidence, because they accept only scientifically verifiable evidence. This is a restriction that they have chosen to place upon themselves, yet they demand that others do the same thing, which is ridiculous. Atheists say that human testimony can’t be trusted because human senses can’t be trusted. The fact that this twisted logic effectively discounts all life experiences doesn’t seem to phase atheists in the least. It’s yet another example of how atheism shuts down the mind.

Ironically, most of the athiests I know or have seen are bitter, angry, restless, insecure people who are quite hostile in regards to God- a clear indication of their own "life experiences" gone sour or through extreme disappoints and expectations that came to nought. I honestly do not believe that everyone that is an athiest just wakes up one morning and decides for themself that God simply does not exist, nor does any of that "afterlife crap".

Something happens and changes in these people, over time, the same way those with faith are touched by God and/or pursue Him on their own. Athiests are not born, they are created.

Therefore, it is a philosophy of life experiences that one decides God does not exist either for them and/or for everyone else. Christians inparticular do not necessarily, therefore, have it good just because they believe...or, I should say, believe because they have it good. On the contrary, Christians suffer like everyone else and it is because they work in spite of that and with optimism toward the divine unknown that they are graced by God, healed, etc.

Their faith saves them in more ways than one, and in many more ways than they are even aware of or will ever be. So many take so much for granted.
 
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TheChameleon said:
Prove to me that this is A christian nation.

Give me proof.

Just look at our founding fathers. Yes, I've heard the arguements that many were Diests, but most could quote the Bible chapter and verse.

James Madison after the Constitution he helped drafted was approved: "We have staked this nation's fate on our ability to obey the Ten Commandments"

Washington's prayers, esp. at Valley Forge, are legendary.

God's fingerprints are all over this nation's history. IF you are willing to look and admit them to being there.

However, many Christians, inlcuding myself, feel this nation is in a post-Chirstian era. His protective hand and blessing has been over us for over 230 years. But, instead we 'try' to spit in His face and say we either don't need Him or He isn't out there. Then they blame Him for storms and earthquakes (acts of God) or when tragedy hits. Always find it tragically funny when people claim to not believe in God, yet blame Him when things happen. Don't blame Him when the blessing and protection is removed. It's only a matter of time before people get what they ask for. Too bad it's not what they think it will be.
 
kyhawkeye said:
You obviously either didn;t read my earlier post to this or have chosen to ignore it. Did you pop into the WayBack machine with Sherman and Mr. Peabody so you know exactly when Matthew or Luke transcribed their work, or when Paul wrote to the churches while in chains? Please tell me, so we can document it...

To take the counterpoint, the Bible make more sence to me than Marx (who I was required to read in college) or any of the so called "Modern Thinkers" trying to explain way God.




That's why you judge them by their fruit (Christian speak for what they do). The problem with the US is that people say they are "Christians' just because they go to church or simply because they live in the US. Kinda like walking into a garage and trying to claim you're a car.

Then again, you can;t just pop out "proof texts" out of context to prove or disprove anything. You have to study it and let the Holy Spirit one your eyes to what is being said. Of course, it's much easier for those of no faith to point fingers at those who do wrong than it is to actually OPEN THE BOOK and learn for yourself. A man was challenged by another to disprove what the Bible says by a believer when the first man took a stance similar to yours. He took up the challenge. He wrote a book about that challenge. It's called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. I challenge anyone here to read it..if you have the courage to...

God is no 'projection.' I've seen his work. I've seen people healed and lived changed.

That you can't pop out "proof texts" was MY point. There are such texts justifying any attitude one wants to take, including disapproving of homosexuality, but I bet if you're an accepting person and you meditate on the word and let the spirit come over you, you'll decide homosexuality is okay. There is no "right way" the Bible intends, because it doesn't fit together; it is an ideological Crazy 8, that can be any suit or value you want. Citing it means nothing, because it's just something someone wrote hundreds of years ago, and less compelling than Shakespeare.

I have read a good deal of the Bible- I've opened the book. I've noted occasional wisdom in it. I think it would be great if we could all live forever and the forces that created the universe cared about our happiness; but I don't believe it.

You have seen people change, and maybe 1 in 1,000 recover from a terminal illness. Your conviction that this is the work of god is still just a feeling you have. That's your right, but basing laws on it is putting your own words in the mouth of the MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE and expecting others to live by it. By the power of Grayskull, that's not acceptable!
 
Betchass said:
That's your right, but basing laws on it is putting your own words in the mouth of the MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE and expecting others to live by it. By the power of Grayskull, that's not acceptable!

But the Bible is an idealogical crazy 8, remember? 😉

Just like society already was and is, with or without it. 😉

God forbid He Himself exists when humans are already gods unto themselves! Did they already have that seat taken! :wooha:
 
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kyhawkeye said:
Just look at our founding fathers. Yes, I've heard the arguements that many were Diests, but most could quote the Bible chapter and verse.

James Madison after the Constitution he helped drafted was approved: "We have staked this nation's fate on our ability to obey the Ten Commandments"

Washington's prayers, esp. at Valley Forge, are legendary.

God's fingerprints are all over this nation's history. IF you are willing to look and admit them to being there.

However, many Christians, inlcuding myself, feel this nation is in a post-Chirstian era. His protective hand and blessing has been over us for over 230 years. But, instead we 'try' to spit in His face and say we either don't need Him or He isn't out there. Then they blame Him for storms and earthquakes (acts of God) or when tragedy hits. Always find it tragically funny when people claim to not believe in God, yet blame Him when things happen. Don't blame Him when the blessing and protection is removed. It's only a matter of time before people get what they ask for. Too bad it's not what they think it will be.

The founding fathers of the US were politicians one and all. Many of them made frequent references to Christ, and yet made references to Deism or, in some cases, derided Christians. Ben Franklin in particular was the sworn enemy of religious dogma.
These guys started with no Constitution and ended with a Constitution, and when all was said and done religion was left out. In those days, Christianity was NOT implied: if you meant Christ, you said it, explicitly, over and over, like so many other documents did. I'm sure you know that it was largely Baptist influence that kept religion out of the Constitution, carefully keeping god's fingerprints off the thing.

As I recall, it's more often than not Christians who blame disasters on god, or claim they are god's wrath. See 9/11/01. See Thomas Prince, who, among others, claimed some earthquakes were god's wrath stored up in the earth, having been deflected by Franklin's lightning rods.

As for the ten commandments, read over the golden verses of Pythagoras some time.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/gvp/gvp03.htm
 
Vladislaus Dracula said:
But the Bible is an idealogical crazy 8, remember? 😉

Just like society already was and is, with or without it. 😉

Actually ideologies are themselves crazy 8's, that of Pol Pot's communism just as much as Torquemada's pope. The chance to base any decision on not-reality.
 
Betchass said:
The founding fathers of the US were politicians one and all.

And the leaders of today are as well. The only difference being Christianity IS implied more.

Therefore, what are we going to be blaming more? Christianity or politics?

If the founding fathers were alive today, I highly suspect that either way, somehow they would not be entirely disappointed at all when they see what society has had to deal with since then.
 
Vladislaus Dracula said:
The burden of proof does not lie on theists to prove anything, as they are the norm of the world. 90% last time I checked believe in a Supreme Being of some kind. People accept this. It is up to athiests to prove what theists believe as wrong if it truely upsets them. Theists on the other hand are content to allow athiests believe what they wish (at least in the civilized world).

Athiesm is not supported by logic or science, yet it itself is a philosophy. Because no scientifically verifiable evidence exists on either side of the God question, science can’t even address the issue, let alone reach any conclusion. In logic, it’s impossible to prove a negative. When someone claims he is an atheist, he is in effect claiming to have proven a negative (at least to himself)—which is a logical impossibility. In terms of pure logic, the only viable alternative to theism is actually agnosticism, which is the belief that the existence of God cannot be known. But atheism runs counter to logic.

You can crunch numbers all you want in frustration, it won't prove anything.

Simple as that.

I crunch numbers with glee, seldom with frustration.

Science and logic do support evolution, and dinosaurs and the big bang, for that matter. They support the world not having been completely covered in water any time in the last million years, people not walking on the surface of water, people not killing lions with their bare hands, etc. etc. Scientific research does not indicate any evidence of any higher power.

It is not "up to" anyone to prove something doesn't exist when there is not a shred of evidence to indicate it does. If god did not exist, things would be exactly as they are at this moment. People would still have all sorts of revelations and become convinced of powerful forces in their lives.

I don't know how this "burden of proof" thing came up, but I would gladly let it drop. I obviously can't ask anyone to prove god exists; I just want people to realize their epiphanies do not constitute such proof. The beliefs of your supposed 90% mean nothing to me, and I'm not inclined to appease them. I would wager, and I suspect hawkeye would agree, that most of them say they have those beliefs and then turn around and live their lives ignoring those beliefs.



Science is, incidentally, never about proving something unquestionably; it is a matter of observing experiments, noting probabilities, and hopefully changing theories based on the outcomes.
Also, I predict someone will ask me to show evidence of evolution. It's too late now to look it up, but it has in fact been observed repeatedly.
 
Betchass said:
Actually ideologies are themselves crazy 8's, that of Pol Pot's communism just as much as Torquemada's pope. The chance to base any decision on not-reality.

What is reality then and who has a right to decide what it is, if not the majority who is in consensus?
 
Vladislaus Dracula said:
Atheists refuse to acknowledge this evidence, because they accept only scientifically verifiable evidence.

Well, DUH!!!

Vladislaus Dracula said:
This is a restriction that they have chosen to place upon themselves, yet they demand that others do the same thing, which is ridiculous. Atheists say that human testimony can’t be trusted because human senses can’t be trusted. The fact that this twisted logic effectively discounts all life experiences doesn’t seem to phase atheists in the least. It’s yet another example of how atheism shuts down the mind.

Twisted logic? What are you talking about?
And about the restriction and shuting down the mind, actually, I'd say it's the other way around, and I could give you a number of reasons, but I'll just give you an example, a situation thats even about to take place in just a few days. On august 2nd, a whole lot of people are going to walk over to a place called "la basilica de cartago", in this place, there is an image of the virgin mary, which is believed to be some holy symbol and people pay tribute to it, now, if people are dumb enough to do that, FINE, let them do it, here's the part that really pisses me off, inside the "basilica", there is some sort of a fountain, and the water that comes out of this sewer... eh... I mean fountain... no no wait, IT IS A SEWER!!!! At least more so than it s a fountain; anyway, the water that comes from it was pronounced by the catholic church to be holy water, and said to be healing water if drank. The health department has determined that this water is one of the most contaminated waters in this country, only a little behind a septic pool. I'm talking about two million people that attend this place, from which at least half(I'd actually say aroud 90% but let's say half, maybe some of them have learned something since last year) drink this water, if it were only the dumb ass grown people who go there out of their own free will, perfect, let them enjoy their diarrea, colera and hepatitis, but this guys make their children drink from this place as well, and that's just plain wrong. As I have said before I'm a pharmacist, so on august 3rd, when there's a bunch of people coming into the pharmacy and saying: I need something for a stomach ache, it's really wierd, all my family seems to have it, we probably ate something that wasn't too good. - Oh! Your whole family? REALLY?!?!?! Sure, it MUST have been something you ate...
Of course the health department has asked time and time again for people not to drink from this place, but what do they know??? They are only the freakin HEALTH DEPARTMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you tell me who are the ones that blind themselves

I do not call myself atheus, but agnostic as you pointed out earlier, I don't mind peole having religious beliefs either, all my family has them, good for them, but when people use this things to take advantage of people, it's not alright anymore... I'm gonna stop now because this things really sicken me...
 
Betchass said:
Scientific research does not indicate any evidence of any higher power.

Nor would any higher power have a need for scientific research to validate it towards it's believers. They believe regardless, and scientific evidience, and those that seek it, are ultimately disappointed people because they find nothing whereas a believer has found something.


Betchass said:
It is not "up to" anyone to prove something doesn't exist when there is not a shred of evidence to indicate it does.

You're right, it is not up to anyone to prove something, provided that they're not TRYING to. Athiests seem frustrated that they cannot prove God does not exist. This is a quest they have embarked on, and because they shut out anything but scientific proof, they will always return empty-handed.

They will never make sense of what a theist has to say because it does not compute with their way of thinking.

A theist, on the other hand, comes back with plenty, regardless of those that are adverse to their efforts.

A theist grows and expands; an athiest stays the same in this regard.

There is no logic in athiesm. Agnosticism is a far better choice, since it is a belief that the existance of God and supernatural entities cannot be KNOWN, but not that they do or do not exist, either way or can't be personally discovered.

Athiesm is introverted to a point of collapse. Theism and agnosticism are far more healthier options in approaching spirituality, since both leave room for growth in that area if it is sought out.

Athiesm does not encourage it, and so pays no dividends.


Betchass said:
If god did not exist, things would be exactly as they are at this moment. People would still have all sorts of revelations and become convinced of powerful forces in their lives.

People would be if He did exist, anyways. What's your point? Until God can be figured out and wrapped in a neat little scientific package, these people are not necessarily crazy.

Betchass said:
I would wager, and I suspect hawkeye would agree, that most of them say they have those beliefs and then turn around and live their lives ignoring those beliefs.

Some people are more spiritual than others and are less prone to being hypocrites. Geographical location also has alot to do with it. So to say "most" when we're basing that information on the widespread corruption of politics AND religion in the media and news, and assuming it's trickled down to the individual household because of corruption's "long reach" is a bit exagerated. We take what we see at face value, unfortunately.

Betchass said:
Science is, incidentally, never about proving something unquestionably; it is a matter of observing experiments, noting probabilities, and hopefully changing theories based on the outcomes.
Also, I predict someone will ask me to show evidence of evolution. It's too late now to look it up, but it has in fact been observed repeatedly.

That is wonderful. I believe science is a part of God's plan for us.
 
janus4385 said:
Well, DUH!!!



Twisted logic? What are you talking about?
And about the restriction and shuting down the mind, actually, I'd say it's the other way around, and I could give you a number of reasons, but I'll just give you an example, a situation thats even about to take place in just a few days. On august 2nd, a whole lot of people are going to walk over to a place called "la basilica de cartago", in this place, there is an image of the virgin mary, which is believed to be some holy symbol and people pay tribute to it, now, if people are dumb enough to do that, FINE, let them do it, here's the part that really pisses me off, inside the "basilica", there is some sort of a fountain, and the water that comes out of this sewer... eh... I mean fountain... no no wait, IT IS A SEWER!!!! At least more so than it s a fountain; anyway, the water that comes from it was pronounced by the catholic church to be holy water, and said to be healing water if drank. The health department has determined that this water is one of the most contaminated waters in this country, only a little behind a septic pool. I'm talking about two million people that attend this place, from which at least half(I'd actually say aroud 90% but let's say half, maybe some of them have learned something since last year) drink this water, if it were only the dumb ass grown people who go there out of their own free will, perfect, let them enjoy their diarrea, colera and hepatitis, but this guys make their children drink from this place as well, and that's just plain wrong. As I have said before I'm a pharmacist, so on august 3rd, when there's a bunch of people coming into the pharmacy and saying: I need something for a stomach ache, it's really wierd, all my family seems to have it, we probably ate something that wasn't too good. - Oh! Your whole family? REALLY?!?!?! Sure, it MUST have been something you ate...
Of course the health department has asked time and time again for people not to drink from this place, but what do they know??? They are only the freakin HEALTH DEPARTMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you tell me who are the ones that blind themselves

I do not call myself atheus, but agnostic as you pointed out earlier, I don't mind peole having religious beliefs either, all my family has them, good for them, but when people use this things to take advantage of people, it's not alright anymore... I'm gonna stop now because this things really sicken me...


I have to admit, I had a hard time reading that. It seemed rushed, frantic, and desperate. It was also needlessly offensive.

Anyways, something about this example does not add up.

Because first and foremost, holy water, or anything claimed by others to be holy water is not for the purposes of consumption. It is, for catholics, to be used to cross themselves (dipping a fingertip and touching it to the forehead, the heart/chest, and the two shoulders). Holy Water is not advocated as a beverage, to quench a thirst, or consume as a drink. I find this presumed recklessness suspicious.

I highly doubt that the catholic church is encouraging people to drink this water when drinking water from a fountain is suspect at best and you say this water is coming from a sewer or it's quality if that of sewer water or comparable to such contamination. If people are drinking the water then it's their own damn fault for drinking it from a fountain which is serviced through city water manes and not purified water that is not filtered through a system. It has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with stupidity. If you know something is contaminated or have heard it is, then theres no reason to drink it and no one is asking or forcing you to.

Can you provide any proof that says the Church blessed this water? Where are you getting this information from? It sounds like conjecture to me or heresay, and therefore completely a lie or not entirely true and therefore it cannot be credited just yet. Now, I'm not saying this fountain thing is made up, but something is fishy about it.

Overall, I don't think it's a good example of anything. The Church would not encourage people to drink water they know is contaminated as they would have lawsuits pending. And, if by some mistake they did not know, then they shortly will have before it became a problem people were doing nothing about (also suspicious). Plus, again, holy water isn't meant for drinking, at least not from a fountain! LOL!

If what you're saying is at all true, then it a matter of responsibility, irresponsibility liability, and safety, not spirituality.

EDIT:

Word of the wise- don't get too involved in things that sicken you.
 
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Y'know Vlad, your the only one throwin' out this word Athiesm, who said ANYBODY was an athiest?
 
Vladislaus Dracula said:
I have to admit, I had a hard time reading that. It seemed rushed, frantic, and desperate. It was also needlessly offensive.

Anyways, something about this example does not add up.

Because first and foremost, holy water, or anything claimed by others to be holy water is not for the purposes of consumption. It is, for catholics, to be used to cross themselves (dipping a fingertip and touching it to the forehead, the heart/chest, and the two shoulders).

I highly doubt that the catholic church is encouraging people to drink this water when public drinking water is suspect at best and you say this water is coming from a sewer or it's quality if that of sewer water. If people are drinking the water then it's their own damn fault for drinking it from a fountain which is serviced through water manes and not purified water that is not filtered through a system.

Can you provide any proof that says the Church blessed this water? Like, public records? Where are you getting this information from? It sounds like conjecture to me or heresay, and therefore completely a lie or not entirely true and therefore it cannot be credited just yet.

Overall, I don't think it's a good example. The Church would not encourage people to drink water they know is contaminated as they would have lawsuits pending. And, if by some mistake they did not know, then they shortly will have before it became a problem people were doing nothing about. Plus, again, holy water isn't meant for drinking, especially from a public fountain! LOL!

If what you're saying is at all true, then it a matter of responsibility, not spirituality.

It is not a matter of spirituality for me, unfortunately it is for most of the people here, so they put it in front of common sense. The people DO drink this water, and if you don't believe me ask any person from this country. Public records? HAHAHA, you crack me up Vlad, things work very differently here. There's a very interesting explanation for this, and I'm gonna write it down for your amusement I suppose. In Costa Rica, most of the population is catholic, the country even has named catholisism it's oficial religion, and as such, the goverment pays the salaries of priests and endorses all activities by the church(and this is a lot of money we're talking about), now why would the goverment do this, simple, because as I said earlier most of the population is catholic and you can imagine how destructive it would be for a politician to pronounce him/herself against the church, so whatever the church says goes, and that's that, so no one can shut this fountain down, no one will risk it anyway. The reason the water is "holy" is that the fountain is inside the church, and the way the story goes, the fountain magicaly appeared there when they erected the church, or at least thats the story the church went by, so they did proclaim it as holy, at first they did not encourage people to drink it, but people did anyway and when some of them started to claim the water had done miracles for them the church backed them up so people would witness the "miracle"(drinking that water and living, that's a miracle), and even though it is well known fact today that this is not true and the fountain was put there with pipes and the whole nine yards, still people choose to ignore that because it is a far more pleasant thought that it was put there by god(again with the blinding and closing of the mind). And I can also assure you that this water is as contaminated as it can get. While the church this days doesn't openly encourage people to drink it, they do not and have never pronounced themselves against it; and to me, that is just as bad because people will continue to drink it, also when I say church I mean the people in high places, the priests that give mass at the churches do encourage this behavior(in case you wonder how I know this since I don't go to church, I know a lot of people who do so it's not to hard getting info about what a priest says, I also have second cousin whos a priest, fun fact, he's atheus).
I know in the US people can get suid over a lot of things(not to say anything), but here my friend, that doesn't happen, if you go to a judge with this kind of stuff you'll probably have him/her laughing in your face, that if you even get to see a judge, 'cause again, that's not the way things work around here, you don't get to sue people over matters like these, specially not the church, besides, they have a very cool way of getting out of stuff, like the time a priest molested some children not too long ago, they just said: it's not our fault, he's the one who did it, throw HIM into jail(and so they did).

And before I forget, NEWSFLASH VLAD! Not everything the church does is right, and I don't even have to go as far as saying the church, but the individuals who represent it, and I believe history has proven that.

This has actually nothing to do with people's beliefs, as I said before, my whole family is religious, and I respect that, I'm actually a very open minded person(as I'm sure most people who are ticklephiles are), people can believe whatever they choose to; it's the fact that they are endangering others because of it that bothers me(seriously, you think exposing children to hepatitis is a good thing).

I have to disagree with the statement that there's no logic in atheism, one of my two best friends is atheus, and he didn't come to it over night(as your have said yourself people don't do that ). He actually used to be a devoted christian and atended church, he also was the kind of christian who put enthusiasm into it and he danced and shouted and all that, he then became atheus because he found out that he got the same level of euphoria and excitement when he went to a rave, so it is basically the same thing as testimonial evidence, and I have experienced this myself, just not at a rave party(don't like them). So the same evidence can be used for theism and atheism.

P.S. I will try to get at least the study on the waters, but I can't warranty anything as things sometimes just seem to dissapear as magicaly as the that fountain appeared. And since all you have right now is my word on it, then I guess it's up to you if you choose to believe me or not. In case it's worth anything, I swear on my mother's grave that all I have told you is true....
 
TheChameleon said:
Y'know Vlad, your the only one throwin' out this word Athiesm, who said ANYBODY was an athiest?

I am, and I probably did say so at one point. It's that damned science again, keeping me from understanding reality.
 
Betchass said:
I am, and I probably did say so at one point. It's that damned science again, keeping me from understanding reality.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
 
TheChameleon said:
Y'know Vlad, your the only one throwin' out this word Athiesm, who said ANYBODY was an athiest?

Who said anybody was (here I mean)?
 
janus4385 said:
It is not a matter of spirituality for me, unfortunately it is for most of the people here, so they put it in front of common sense. The people DO drink this water, and if you don't believe me ask any person from this country. Public records? HAHAHA, you crack me up Vlad, things work very differently here. There's a very interesting explanation for this, and I'm gonna write it down for your amusement I suppose. In Costa Rica, most of the population is catholic, the country even has named catholisism it's oficial religion, and as such, the goverment pays the salaries of priests and endorses all activities by the church(and this is a lot of money we're talking about), now why would the goverment do this, simple, because as I said earlier most of the population is catholic and you can imagine how destructive it would be for a politician to pronounce him/herself against the church, so whatever the church says goes, and that's that, so no one can shut this fountain down, no one will risk it anyway. The reason the water is "holy" is that the fountain is inside the church, and the way the story goes, the fountain magicaly appeared there when they erected the church, or at least thats the story the church went by, so they did proclaim it as holy, at first they did not encourage people to drink it, but people did anyway and when some of them started to claim the water had done miracles for them the church backed them up so people would witness the "miracle"(drinking that water and living, that's a miracle), and even though it is well known fact today that this is not true and the fountain was put there with pipes and the whole nine yards, still people choose to ignore that because it is a far more pleasant thought that it was put there by god(again with the blinding and closing of the mind). And I can also assure you that this water is as contaminated as it can get. While the church this days doesn't openly encourage people to drink it, they do not and have never pronounced themselves against it; and to me, that is just as bad because people will continue to drink it, also when I say church I mean the people in high places, the priests that give mass at the churches do encourage this behavior(in case you wonder how I know this since I don't go to church, I know a lot of people who do so it's not to hard getting info about what a priest says, I also have second cousin whos a priest, fun fact, he's atheus).
I know in the US people can get suid over a lot of things(not to say anything), but here my friend, that doesn't happen, if you go to a judge with this kind of stuff you'll probably have him/her laughing in your face, that if you even get to see a judge, 'cause again, that's not the way things work around here, you don't get to sue people over matters like these, specially not the church, besides, they have a very cool way of getting out of stuff, like the time a priest molested some children not too long ago, they just said: it's not our fault, he's the one who did it, throw HIM into jail(and so they did).

And before I forget, NEWSFLASH VLAD! Not everything the church does is right, and I don't even have to go as far as saying the church, but the individuals who represent it, and I believe history has proven that.

This has actually nothing to do with people's beliefs, as I said before, my whole family is religious, and I respect that, I'm actually a very open minded person(as I'm sure most people who are ticklephiles are), people can believe whatever they choose to; it's the fact that they are endangering others because of it that bothers me(seriously, you think exposing children to hepatitis is a good thing).

I have to disagree with the statement that there's no logic in atheism, one of my two best friends is atheus, and he didn't come to it over night(as your have said yourself people don't do that ). He actually used to be a devoted christian and atended church, he also was the kind of christian who put enthusiasm into it and he danced and shouted and all that, he then became atheus because he found out that he got the same level of euphoria and excitement when he went to a rave, so it is basically the same thing as testimonial evidence, and I have experienced this myself, just not at a rave party(don't like them). So the same evidence can be used for theism and atheism.

P.S. I will try to get at least the study on the waters, but I can't warranty anything as things sometimes just seem to dissapear as magicaly as the that fountain appeared. And since all you have right now is my word on it, then I guess it's up to you if you choose to believe me or not. In case it's worth anything, I swear on my mother's grave that all I have told you is true....


I did not know you lived in a different country. If you had made me aware of that, then I would have understood this contaminated water business you're talking about. (No offense to your country).

So, in light of this information, there are obviously different standards that would come into play just because of the differences in the cultures and countries.

I also never said everything the church does it right. So there was no need to "newsflash" as if I was denying something or you were proving something.

If this is not related to the topic then why did you bring it up is what I'm trying to figure out. What you're talking about is negligence.

As for raves, it is not a good example to use them, but I'm glad that you did because it allows me to make this point:

Anyone who would abandon their spiritual beliefs because they got the same feelings out of a rave party (in this country rave parties often have drugs and alcohol involved) must not have been very devote to begin with or had a personal relationship with the Lord.

Someone who cannot distinguish the difference between spiritual enlightenment and adrenaline rushes doesn't seem very centered or able to tell the difference between the sensations.

Personally, I think it's sad that someone would abandon their faith because of rave parties or because they could "get a rush" somewhere else, as if religion was supposed to be providing that for your amusement or entertainment. To equate the worthiness of faith and religion with how much of a buzz or emotional high it can give you is very irresponsible since they're not the same things nor are coming from the same sources or are aqquired in the same manner. Religious devotion and personal fun are two seperate things, and I think it's very immature to choose one over the other and change what you believe so fickly based on their ability to appease a passing and temporary whim.

I'm thinking that if you'd rather party and not take anything seriously, then you've got no business in a church to begin with, since you're not there for the right reasons and will find no fulfillment there.

As for the studies on the waters, theres no point in you doing that now, since you've confirmed where you live and I can already guess the quality of the water as well as the local superstition.
 
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Vladislaus Dracula said:
I did not know you lived in a different country. If you had made me aware of that, then I would have understood this contaminated water business you're talking about. (No offense to your country).

So, in light of this information, there are obviously different standards that would come into play just because of the differences in the cultures and countries.

I also never said everything the church does it right. So there was no need to "newsflash" as if I was denying something or you were proving something.

If this is not related to the topic then why did you bring it up is what I'm trying to figure out. What you're talking about is negligence.

As for raves, it is not a good example to use them, but I'm glad that you did because it allows me to make this point:

Anyone who would abandon their spiritual beliefs because they got the same feelings out of a rave party (in this country rave parties often have drugs and alcohol involved) must not have been very devote to begin with or had a personal relationship with the Lord.

Someone who cannot distinguish the difference between spiritual euphoria and adrenaline rushes doesn't seem very centered or able to tell the difference between the sensations.

Personally, I think it's sad that someone would abandon their faith because of rave parties or because they could "get a rush" somewhere else, as if religion was supposed to be providing it. To equate the worthiness of faith and religion with how much of a buzz or emotional high it can give you is very irresponsible since they're not the same things nor are coming from the same sources. Religious devotion and personal fun are two seperate things, and I think it's very immature to choose one over the other based on their ability to appease a passing and temporary whim.

As for the studies on the waters, theres no point in you doing that now, since you've confirmed where you live and I can already guess the quality of the water as well as the local superstition.

I have stated were I'm from a few times before, I assumed you knew, since you didn't then I apologize if I offended you. And don't worry, no offence taken about the water thing either, being a third world country does have certain disadvantages, still, it's not a nation wide problem, some areas have a pretty good service(mine is not the best but it's aceptable); and this place does have a lot of other advantages, I'm very happy to live here and if you ever have the chance I invite to come down here and see it for yourself :happy:

Actually my friend has never taken drugs(except for nicotine), and a lot more of his ideology has come from his studies, he is now a psychologist. As much as your point of making a diference beetwen spiritual euphoria and adrenaline rushes may stand from a certain angle, because someone cannot prove he feels the same thing on both events, the same point can be made the other way around, nobody can prove that he doesn't, and neither can someone prove what he felt at the church wasn't as real as what other people feel. The point here is not that he has proof, not at all, it is just that his proof is as valid as any other, so you can't really say all atheists are that way without any justification.
 
janus4385 said:
I have stated were I'm from a few times before, I assumed you knew, since you didn't then I apologize if I offended you. And don't worry, no offence taken about the water thing either, being a third world country does have certain disadvantages, still, it's not a nation wide problem, some areas have a pretty good service(mine is not the best but it's aceptable); and this place does have a lot of other advantages, I'm very happy to live here and if you ever have the chance I invite to come down here and see it for yourself :happy:

You may have stated where you are from before, but in must have been in passing to me, because I didn't remember like I do some of the others. The fact you, like me, have something made up in your location section, has lead to this misunderstanding.

A "kingdom of ice" isn't very specific. I'm from soutern California. Quite the opposite! 😛

janus said:
Actually my friend has never taken drugs(except for nicotine), and a lot more of his ideology has come from his studies, he is now a psychologist. As much as your point of making a diference beetwen spiritual euphoria and adrenaline rushes may stand from a certain angle, because someone cannot prove he feels the same thing on both events, the same point can be made the other way around, nobody can prove that he doesn't, and neither can someone prove what he felt at the church wasn't as real as what other people feel. The point here is not that he has proof, not at all, it is just that his proof is as valid as any other, so you can't really say all atheists are that way without any justification.

I want to make it clear I am not suggesting your friend has taken drugs and that influenced the decision. While it probably has for so many people "what the hell am I doing in church when I could be feeling like this 24/7?!", it certainly cannot be said for everyone, obviously.

No one is telling your friend he has to prove anything. I'm assuming he's a grown man and can make whatever decision he wants. I'm also not saying his proof is not valid to some degree. It is certainly valid to him and thats really all that matters as far as he's concerned. The same goes for athiests or anyone really.

This topic however is about how people running a country are denying other people the same marriage rights. Enough people seem to think it's wrong that no advances are being made. People can argue the validity of that all that want, but it doesn't change the fact that these same people in charge or in positions of influence and power get to make these decisions, or, are in a position to manipulate popular opinion enough that things swing their way.

I never said that was right, but it is the reality of life. Big fish eats little fish, big brother watches you, and not everyone given the benefit of the doubt.

We live in a highly paranoid society thats evolving arguably too fast than other nations. We go through phases rather quickly here, even before we've gotten used to them. And yet, we're pretty damn complacent and just follow the lead of the yes men because we don't even trust our own feelings enough to invoke meaningful changes.

Believe me when I tell you that you may live in a 3rd world country, but America has 3rd world social issues by comparison.

We are highly allergic to things we cannot master, manipulate, and control, and we're far too dependant on foreign goods and material.

It's really hard to believe we're the last remaining (official anyway) superpower today.

We have the might of Hercules, but the mentality of a child sometimes. We're dangerous even unto ourselves, and I'm wondering how much longer we can keep this up before we implode.

It's never too late though to make a turn-around.

Now I'm REALLY calling it a night. I have other things to attend to. Later.
 
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Vladislaus Dracula said:
Someone who cannot distinguish the difference between spiritual enlightenment and adrenaline rushes doesn't seem very centered or able to tell the difference between the sensations.

Agreed. That's why I respect someone who can recognize that they are the same thing.
 
Vladislaus Dracula said:
A "kingdom of ice" isn't very specific. I'm from soutern California. Quite the opposite! 😛

Well, I guess we all like at least a little fantasy in our lives, don't we? :happy:

Vladislaus Dracula said:
I want to make it clear I am not suggesting your friend has taken drugs and that influenced the decision. While it probably has for so many people "what the hell am I doing in church when I could be feeling like this 24/7?!", it certainly cannot be said for everyone, obviously.

No problem, even if you would have suggested it wouldn't have been a problem, I know this parties are not a place where they hand out candy apples and cotton candy, I couldn't blame anybody for reaching such a conclusion if they did. Besides, I'm not that easily offended, I'm a pretty open minded person, remember? 😛

Vladislaus Dracula said:
No one is telling your friend he has to prove anything. I'm assuming he's a grown man and can make whatever decision he wants. I'm also not saying his proof is not valid to some degree. It is certainly valid to him and thats really all that matters as far as he's concerned. The same goes for athiests or anyone really.

Thats all I wanted to hear, thank you 😀 Looks like we have come to an agreement too 😎

Vladislaus Dracula said:
This topic however is about how people running a country are denying other people the same marriage rights. Enough people seem to think it's wrong that no advances are being made. People can argue the validity of that all that want, but it doesn't change the fact that these same people in charge or in positions of influence and power get to make these decisions, or, are in a position to manipulate popular opinion enough that things swing their way.

I believe the topic of the conversation was intended to be a joke in the begginning, but a few of us seem to have turned this into some kind of debate, and it has just come to my attention that we appear to have hijacked the thread :wooha:
 
I don't care about marriage. You can keep it. It lost it's meaning a long, long time ago. Gimme the rights, and I'm happy.
 
Gremio said:
I don't care about marriage. You can keep it. It lost it's meaning a long, long time ago. Gimme the rights, and I'm happy.


I'm going to have to agree...as long as I get all of the 1,138 rights that I am not allowed, I don't care if you call it civil unions or whatever...

But frankly, after skimming through the arguments on this thread, I have to say this: The ones who are arguing most are straight...and though I know you are not being blatantly insensitive about this, and I'm impressed by some of the depth of the arguments going on, you are all straight men...

If you'll pardon my French, quit your bitchin!!! You can all get married and have every right afforded to you under the law...I don't...and religious arguments and everything else aside, the issue comes down to whether or not gay people deserve to be treated equally under the law--is homosexuality a part of the human condition or is it just some fetish? And THAT is what it boils down to...equality...that's what all of us homos want...to be given the SAME rights as everyone else...we get the fact that every major religion thinks we are an abomination...however, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state and, despite the religious right basically running this country right now, this is not about Jesus, Moses, or Mohammad...this is about allowing 10% of the population to be treated equally...and not as second class citizens...and considering that whole "love thy neighbor" shtick, I think when Jesus returns, He's going to be exceptionally disappointed in everyone for the way this is going down...

My two cents for now...

I'm still going to get married, whether the US government allows it or not...
 
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