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Utopian politcs

Ticklish9's

2nd Level Red Feather
Joined
Oct 12, 2001
Messages
1,264
Points
38
I had a set of questions a friend posed me, that I thought would be neat to post here. I'll post my own answers as a reply, so you guys get a chance to look at these without getting my own answers in your heads first. 🙂

Oh, and trust me, MUCH abbreviated answers are fine, I realize not everyone has the time to waste that I do typing out long, rambling essay type things. Or the inclination. Or the steady supply of beer.

And yes, the beer IS important.

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In a Utopian society, discuss:

At least 8 rights the citizans have;

The body of laws, and who enforces them;

How the society is governed, what form of government exists, and how are the leaders (if any) selected;

How is the health guarenteed;

And finally, what makes a good citizen?
 
My own response - Copied from my journal

at least 8 fundamental rights... I’ll give it a go.

-Right to equitable access to material resources (in an age of nanotechnology and intra-, if not inter-, stellar travel, material resources are more than plentiful - they’re near infinite. Locking them up in the hands of a few powerful leaders is anathema to a true Utopia)

-Right to basic survival needs (this includes health care, not just food and shelter)

-Right to free access to information and education

-Right to free expression (this is more than just "freedom of speech", but goes on to guarentee a freedom of access to constant communication with the human race as a whole - of which the internet is only just the beginning)

-Freedom from confinement

-Right to continuity of existence (basically the right to life, but broader, to allow for the possibility of non-human sentience such as AI)

-Integrity of the individual (it is presumable that one could destroy or alter and individuals thoughts, or "download" them, in an age where computers may well tie directly into brainwaves. It is also plausible that in the far future, one group could seek to unify humanity into a sort of "hive mind" through that same method. This prohibits that, as well as guarenteeing privacy in the contemperary sense)

Well that’s seven... but those are the most important. I’m sure you can come up with one more... feel free to leave any suggestions in the comments.
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They body of laws... once again, this is an attempt to transpose our worldview on a Utopia that by it’s very nature would be dramatically different in all scopes, of which law I believe will be one of the most altered - or removed.

Law, by it’s nature, seeks to alter the behaviour of citizens - either forcing them to do things, or preventing them from doing things. Since the basic precept of a Utopian society is freedom, and open communication, it would seem that Utopia and Rule of Law are diametrically opposed.

Thus, one would expect NO rule of law. Instead, one would expect a social contract of the sort expressed above - a guarentee of fundamental human rights, and a basic recognition of those rights, by all members of the society. As such, those who fail to live up to the social standard are protected, and would be guarenteed the necessary clinical or psychological care necessary to find out the cause. At the same time, the Utopian society must be wary of forcing its own world view on its citizens. One could envision long term rehabilitation centers for those who are unable to accept the social contract, but that borders dangerously on the concept of a prison... rather, I believe that if a society is functioning healthily and ascribing to the above rights, and communication is ensured, that there will be EXTREMELY few maladjusted citizens, and those that are should come round rather easily, given the nature of treatment available.

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Government... it seems to me that government is a way of regulating behaviour and putting certain people in charge of other people. While this is necessary to today’s relatively unevolved society, where our competitive nature still holds sway, the need for governence is gradually evaporating. We as a species and as a society are evolving away from competition and towards co-operation. Additionally, we are maturing as a people. THe only government a person needs is the government inside his or her head, in a Utopian society. Once again, constant access to communication ensures misunderstandings will be extremely rare, free and equitable access to basic survival needs, material resources, and education removes the primary impetus for conflict. Government today is a necessary evil - in the Utopian world, it is merely an evil.

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How is health guarenteed? This nicely introduces an important aspect of the future Utopia (we ARE going to achieve it, I might add... this isn’t just an excercise in thought experiments)- that being, the role technology can and must play.

Already we’ve seen an exponential increase in automation since the 19th century’s Industrial Revolution. And in recent years, the advent of solid-state computer technology has seen a Technological Revolution that changed how almost everything is done. This is why, in modernized countries, the job market has shifted to a service economy (more on that in a bit). What we can expect to see in the Utopian future is a Technological Evolution whereby humans are supplanted by machines in all aspects of production and resource acquisition - in short, all menial labour can and will be done by automated systems. Since this can all be overseen by artificial intelligence (which can be properly part of the society as well, and thus recognize the fundamental charter of rights above, as well as be protected by it), it leaves humanity free to do pretty much whatever they please. Call it the end of work, the advent of a leisure society, "the plateau", what have you... it is a cornerstone of Utopia.

Anyway, the implication is that technology and automation can take care of health issues of the physical sort. Mental health I’d expect to be dramatically stronger than it is at current, due to the level of openness and communication in society. A stable society yields stable children who become stable adults, and a society free of competitive pressure removes most of the issues that cause difficulty in today’s youth and, therefore, adults.

It may seem like technology is going to be some magical "cure all" elixir for the species, but that’s not exactly it. Rather, technology is the tool that will allow us to reach a societal maturity we simply can’t attain in our world of struggle and competition. When that onus is removed, so too is the engine that drives our own destruction at present.

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Which brings us to "What makes a good citizen."

The easy answer is, a good citizen abides by the social contract and lives a happy life. Fin.

But the right answer is there is no such thing as a good citizen in a Utopian society. Neither are there "bad" citizens. In a Utopian context, there are simply citizens. All are equal and free, and thus all are equally "good". There can be no judgement of that sort. Instead, there is simply a mature, free society with citizens who are compassionate, rational, and in constant communication with each other, themselves, and the species as a whole. One would see the end of materialism, the end of arbitraty divisions like "nationalism" or tribes, and instead a unity of purpose and life that abandons the need for deciding who is "good" and "bad", who is "us" and "them". That’s the TRUE Utopia. And that’s our future.

All thoughts welcome and appreciated. 🙂
 
Hmmm...now this is a challenging topic. I’ll try, though. First, I must say that, given my perspective, it is difficult to answer any questions regarding laws or government, related to a Utopian society. I believe that, if a society capable of such a “Utopia” existed, there would be no need to define rights, laws, or even create a government. Just now, as I’m typing this, I looked up “Utopia” for a specific definition, and quite frankly, I even find the definition to contradict itself.

A place of ideal perfection, especially in laws and government

Once again, it’s a matter of perspective, but my opinion is that perfection would include the absence of laws and government. I don’t feel that any society which requires laws to “keep them in line” is capable of “Utopia”.

This makes my responses to the first three questions “nothing, none, not applicable, etc.”. The are no laws. There is no government. Rights do not need to be defined. In addition, the very concept of money would be eliminated. Everything is free, and everyone contributes what they can, based on their own interests and skills. Everyone is free to decide what specifically they will contribute. There would be no need to force people to make contributions, because everyone would simply want to, for the good of society. And there would be no need to tell people what to contribute, because the diversity of individual interests and skills would handle that. (Another reason humanity as we know it is not capable of my concept of Utopia.) And thus, money is eliminated. So health would be guaranteed by the fact that there are those present whose skills and contributions involve healthcare, and that their services, like everything else, cost nothing.

As far as what makes a “good” citizen...and everyone would be an example of this in my definition of “utopia”...basically, one who considers others, in terms of contribution and generosity, but thinks only of oneself in terms of judgement and comparison.

Utopia...a society which, barring some kind of miracle, I don’t think we’ll ever achieve.
 
Utopian society my foot!

1.) An utopian society would require all citizens to be perfect humans. No greed, no envy, no hatred, no power. All people are equal in rights and opportunities. That was the original idea of communism. It failed, just because there is no such thing as a single perfect human being, let alone ALL human beings on Earth.

2.) An utopian society wouldn't know money, borders, laws, crime, disease, hunger, wars, prejudice, unfair treatment, and so on. Again perfect human beings would be required to achieve this aim. For the rest, see 1.)

3.) To guarantee health, you'd need the first two points above, plus omnipotence and omniscience. That's the realm of God, not human territory. Even if we find treatments for all currently known fatal diseases, there'll never be a guarantee that some mutations of otherwise harmless viruses or bacteriae won't turn out lethal some day. That's the way evolution works.

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An utopian society can't be free of death, or it must be free of births at the same time. If there's no more procreation, the human evolution comes to a standstill. Which in turn means we need to bring all ALL evolution to a standstill, or some insect or plant will overtake us on the fast lane. A standstill of evolution therefore means we'd have to be the arbiter of the universe. You see where this leads...

And we'd finally have to face the end of our solar system, or our galaxy, and probably of the whole universe, maybe to give way to the next Big Bang!

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Hypothetical questions are about as useful to the solution of REAL problems as masturbation is for population growth... 🙄
 
Perfection is a matter of opinion. As a utopia is perfect, it's definition is also a matter of opinion.
 
maverick, to me "perfect" means the contrary of "human".

And I'm glad that mankind isn't perfect. Otherwise, what would be the sense of life, if not to become a better being? We're just the latest species in a long row of evolution, but we're certainly not the last one. Hopefully, Mother Nature has more to offer in her bag of tricks...
 
All well and good. To avoid hijacking 9's's thread and turning it into a "meaning of life" discussion, I'll simply say I agree to some extent. At any rate, as you said, it's hypothetical. As such, feasibility is hardly an issue.
 
I'm inclined to disagree that there is no sense to life, other than to become better. I find it fairly easy to believe that one can achieve "good enough", if not true perfection, and then simply enjoy it. For a long time I sought to better myself, but then I thought - against what standard am I basing this comparison of "betterness"? Being better than my peers? Better than average? Wouldn't it be easier to instead find some ideal of my own to work towards and, ultimately, achieve? Just my opinion.

I'm also STRONGLY unwilling to agree that Utopia is innatainable. My answers to the questions were very short term, and necessarily so - to consider true Utopian politics (such as the term applies) would require months of truly in depth discussion.

First off, consider the age of the universe. We exist now in an EXTREMELY young star system, in an EXTREMELY young universe, on an EXTEMELY young planet, and we are, ourselves, far more than extremely young as a civilization. Compare technology ten years ago with today. Note that technology has advanced exponentially so far in human culture, with modest variation. Note also that, extrapolating the past ten years of development, at exponential growth rates, into the future for years numbering in the BILLIONS... and any claim of impossibility is reduced to the ridiculous. The impossibly, my friend, is inconcievable. What we can envision, we can achieve.

Answering your claim that the end of death (which I find perfectly reasonable, the body and brain being nothing more than modestly complex biochemical machines that - like all matter - can be repaired and replaced) would mean a similar end to births, and thus evolution, I'd argue that:

A) Given a fair resource distribution program, and the infinities of the universe at our disposable, Malthusian economics is dead;

and B) that even if one DID arbitrarily find a cessation in births as well as deaths, evolution would continue - humanity has taken evolution out of the hands of genes (though that continues) and into our own minds and hands. The process is far from complete, of course - but not THAT far.
 
I respect your obviously infinite optimism, T9, but I don't share it.

It's also not in the human nature to stop at "good enough", because as long as there's something unknown, we'll be curious to find it out. Every answer presents at least two new questions, that's how science works. And as long as there are potentially better life standards or circumstances, we will strive to achieve it, only to discover even more new and better possibilities.

I agree that we are a young species. Dinosaurs ruled the world for over 150 million years, we have been around for just a few million years. But dinosaurs died out, and so will we one day, to make way for a new "crown of creation" species. It would be wishful thinking, even illogical to think otherwise. That's how evolution works, and evolution is one of the laws of nature. Speaking about a "young universe" doesn't make much sense, as we don't have any comparison. Compared with the age of our universe, the existence of mankind is a mere flea fart.

No matter how far our technology advances, we won't be able to change the laws of nature. We might find ways to circumvent some of them, but we can't change them.

And you're right, we could discuss for months or years about utopian societies, because we'd have to agree on a whole ton of definitions. These definitions would certainly show different values in Buddhistic, Animistic, Islamic, Hindu cultures, and many of them would be incompatible with our western definitions. Which utopian society can afford to exclude other cultures?

Dreaming about utopia is all well and nice, as long as you don't forget reality...
 
how about if we follow the civil and criminal code found in the Old Testament? that should do it.
 
the_Baron said:
how about if we follow the civil and criminal code found in the Old Testament? that should do it.
Sorry Baron, would you wish adulterous wives to get stoned to death? And that's just one of a thousand atrocious rules from the Old Testament. You can't build a modern society according to rules of 5000 years ago!
 
Ticklish9's said:
Wouldn't it be easier to instead find some ideal of my own to work towards and, ultimately, achieve? Just my opinion.


Exactly. However, as far as a Utopia goes, I must agree with Hal. First, because everyone has a different idea of the "perfect" world. Second, because society is not getting any more open-minded. Not in this country, anyway. We're basically a glorified talk show audience, constantly judging everyone else's actions and opinions because of our own insecurities. As I'd said, in a utopia...the one in my vision, anyway...one would look only at oneself in a judgemental or comparitive light, and to others in terms of compassion and understanding. We're doing just the opposite (Not everyone, mind you. But society in general.) and have continued to do so consistently since the beginning of our existence. There is no sign of people understanding and respecting one another, even within our own society, much less the world as a whole. We will likely destroy ourselves first.
 
oh lord, my brain hurts...

First of all, I would hope that the original intent of this thread is to promote creativity and provide amusement rather than to discuss utopian ideals as a realistic means of improving our current society, at least with in the somewhat restrictive time frame of the next several millennia. Therefore, I would propose a society in which tickling in not merely a fetish but rather an integral part of human sexual expression, usually mentioned in the same sentence as oral sex. In fact, it would almost be difficult to distinguish the two activities an a utopian world...

Actually, I do not have the time or the beer to adequately respond to the original question of this thread, so I will simply state that I would envision a utopian society to be much like that described by Ticklish9's. I also agree with Hal regarding the current state of human nature and its incompatability with this type of untopian society. I, like many others, accept that communism (especially of the utopian variety 😀 ) has not yet completely succeeded due to the fact that human nature is inherently evil, thereby depriving any marxist-style utopian society of the necessary ingredient of cooperation. But the idea that human nature can evolve into something better is intriguing to me, mainly because it is not an idea that I have previously considered. And then, if we are in a constant state of evolution, what defines "utopia?" Can it exist in such a state? I really enjoy the interesting points raised by all. Will our species ever achieve utopian society or will we destroy ourselves first? 🙂
 
'Fraid I'll have to field these questions at a more soberr future point in time....

So I'll jus st say that I do strongly believe a Utopian society is infinitely possible. 🙂
 
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