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Vince McMahon? The internet? What killed the magic of pro wrestling?

R

RealManOfGenius

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I mean, by turning it into "sports entertainment"? I couldn't even read the "kayfabe" wrestling magazines (PWI, Inside Wrestling, The Wrestler, etc) anymore because anything that's "kayfabe" is ruined for me. Actually I briefly looked through one of those mags recently, and they seem to have given up the kayfabe format.

Maybe younger fans who never saw the AWA, Mid-South, World Class, Georgia, Mid-Atlantic, Mid-Southern territories etc, won't be able to relate to this, but wrestling was SO much different back then. It was much easier to "suspend disbelief" and just enjoy the match. Now I can't watch wrestling without thinking "he botched that move", "he doesn't cut good promos", etc. The magic is gone for me.

The one thing that maybe wasn't as good back then was that wrestling wasn't mainstream like it is today, so wrestling fans often got ribbed by their friends for liking something that was "fake". But maybe wrestling was never meant to be mainstream. Maybe that's what ruined it.
 
What killed it? Trying to sell it as real. It was far more entertaining when stone cold was infiltrating a hospital, disguised as a doctor, to whip mcmahons ass. It was far more entertaining when booker T was being chasded through a supermarket by kane. It was far more entertaining when shane mcmahon pushed kane into the hellfire, followed by a "burn in hell, you son of a bitch"


Nowadays, those moments of genius are so far gone I am suprised that pro wrestling is still around. Especially with the rise of MMA, which is far superior.
 
The sad fact is that Vince has so over-saturated the market, that he can't keep up. Plus, interest in wrestling has been waning for many years now. It's great if you have the money to do what Vince does, but it doesn't mean the public is going to want it.

Bring back the heady days of the 80's, "Saturday Night's Main Event", and larger than life characters...if you ask me.
 
For me, it's because back in the day they talked for 2 minutes and wrestled for 20. Now they talk for 20 and wrestle for 2.

And it really annoys me when they show a "what just happened" replay about 5 times. Even after an ad it's "before the break" and they show it again. They insult the viewers intelligence as if we (duh) didn't just see what happened.

Also, I've really tried to watch TNA Wrestling. The thing that annoys me most is the announcers seem to think they have to talk really loud, sometimes even yell, for you to pay attention. I can understand trying to add excitement but imo they just go overboard. It makes the matches hard to watch.

As someone mentioned, I miss the days when wrestling was just wrestling. You could watch it and enjoy it and not have to try and analyze everything.

I will always like the 'legends' better and here's one example why:

In reflection, one of the things that amazes me about the Ric Flair legacy is he was at the height of his popularity when (1) there were very few shirts, toys or wrestling merchandise (2) wrestling was not yet "mainstream" and wasn't on television like 10 times a week (3) there was only one PPV a YEAR.

Yet every wrestling fan and even some that weren't fans, knew him.

No "catch phrases", no 10 minute 'in the ring' mic sessions. Just one word.

"Whoooooo!"

Long live Ric Flair. A true icon and symbolism of what helped make pro wrestling. Love him or hate him, he made you do both. That's one of the reasons pro wrestling survived.
 
How bout the fact that it's painfully obvious they aren't even close to hitting each other at times. Geez I could do a better job of fake punching someone.
 
I was big on Wrestling During the Attitude era, good stories and awesome rivalries and most of the wrestlers back then had personalities and didnt all seem the same.

I watched it recently and alot of them have not aged well, they all seem like walking masses of muscle these days guys who have spent more time in the gym buffing up than in the ring practicing. The new wrestlers are bland and dont particularly stand out. Maybe its because ive grew up i dont know but the magic that was there when i was 12-13years old has certainly gone.

And i cant believe Triple H is champion...has there ever been a decent amount of time when hes not held it?
 
The magic died when mcmahon made it sports entertainment and they removed the curtain on the mystique of wrestling. To quote bobby heenan "The Magic is gone, the audience knows how the tricks are done" and that is true

If you know how a magician pulls a rabbit out of his hat, would you pay\still be in awe of it?

The key thing is wrestling NEVER said it was real, it was the media who said it was fake. But McMahon then embraced it saying its "entertainment"
 
Also, for all the ways the internet has made life more convenient (without it ticklephiles would still have to communicate by some snail-mail newsletter for example) it also has definitely come at a price. With the internet I don't think there was any way to keep the "secrets" of pro wrestling secret any longer. Now I know why wrestlers maybe 10-12 years ago would complain about "smart marks" who would pick apart a match or a storyline or promo instead of just enjoying it. I used to watch the AWA as a kid and I just recently watched an old tv match between the Road Warriors (in their prime, they were absolute beasts) against 2 jobbers. A couple of the moves done by Hawk and Animal were a little sloppy...but as a kid I don't think I even would have noticed it, I was just in awe of these two monsters. Yeah it is a lot like knowing how the magician does his tricks, or finding out that it was really your mom and dad who've been putting the christmas presents under the tree all this time. And I didn't know Bobby Heenan said that about the magic being gone. So true.

PS: I'm not comparing the leaking of the secrets of pro wrestling to the other more serious problems since the internet. I'm just sayin' 😛
 
Triple H & Steph

storm7400 said:
Bret Hart 😉
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Not likely, considering his entire life was dedicated to the Kayfabe everybody ells here seems to miss so much. If anybody or anything killed the business it was the unholy marriage of Paul Lavsque to the Billion Dollar Ring Rat Stephanie McMahon. HHH has since held the big belt 11 times, and they aren't worth Bret's first run as Commonwealth Champion... in Stampede Wrestling. At least Hart put on a good show in the ring, while Hunter is to busy pushing how great he is in the most desperate of ways. Hart wasn't the mic Artist some guys were, but at least it didn't take him half an episode of RAW to get his point across, regardless of how dry he may have been to some. One other thing you should consider Storm, before you want to through Bret Hart's name out their in such a manner. When Brian Pilman died, it wasn't Hart who refused to come out and bow his head when the bell was rung 10 times, it was the Twit Brothers from Dumb2theXtream HHH and HBK.
 
I think the WWE went down hill for a few reasons

1. building up John Cena as some unbeatable superhero that always comes out on top no matter what the odds are ... eventually it got predictable and boring .

2. Vince trying to intergrade pop culture and current events into storylines as well as getting celebritys into the mix *IE Wrestlemania last year *

3. as much as i hate to say it ... Triple H becoming mad with power and holding the younger talents down
 
Vince turned the WWE into candy. And you know what happens if you eat too much candy:xlime:
 
badreligion said:
I think the WWE went down hill for a few reasons

1. building up John Cena as some unbeatable superhero that always comes out on top no matter what the odds are ... eventually it got predictable and boring .

2. Vince trying to intergrade pop culture and current events into storylines as well as getting celebritys into the mix *IE Wrestlemania last year *

3. as much as i hate to say it ... Triple H becoming mad with power and holding the younger talents down
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You can blame your first point on your 3rd. If HHH had let the good in ring talent advance some what then Cena never would have become as popular as he has. You 2nd point doesn't really make sence because the entire Rock and Wrestling era of Hogan and company was a direct result of Roddy Piper smacking Cindy Lauper on Pipers Pit and Mr. T tagging with Hogan at the first WrestleMania. So brining in Pop culture to Wrestling does make sence, and does make money. The problem for old school "It don't matter if he can't work in the ring" fans isn't the White Rapper gimmick of Cena, it's the White Rapper that can't work a half decent match aspect of it.
 
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I think the business is cyclical. I don't really remember the territory system, even though it was still in existence (barely) when I first started watching WWF, but some of the crap that got churned out in the early to mid 90s was unwatchable even for a 10 year old.

Then you got ECW, the NWO, and the attitude era, and things became original and unpredictable again. And, might I say, it was damned fun to watch; the Outsiders and Hogan storming the ring every Nitro and spray painting people? Brilliant. Or, at least it was brilliant until they made everyone on the roster part of the NWO, but anyway.

Anyway, I don't really doubt that there'll be some sort of resurgence somewhere along the line. That's been the history of this business, every decade or so it gets super-popular and starts drawing a shitload of mainstream attention, then it dies down for a bit.
 
Strider said:
Then you got ECW, the NWO, and the attitude era, and things became original and unpredictable again. And, might I say, it was damned fun to watch; the Outsiders and Hogan storming the ring every Nitro and spray painting people? Brilliant. Or, at least it was brilliant until they made everyone on the roster part of the NWO, but anyway.
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You contradict yourself by saying wrestling was unpredictable. If the nWo was attacking people every week then you could predict it. The New World Order was stale in 6 months, ECW was horrible, and WCW blew a huge oprotunity with all the media attention the Screw Job brought in Hart in 97. You also forget that the Cruider Weight Divition was one of the best things to happen in North America in year. Those guys could actualy work, and one of the best angles they ever did in WCW was the King of all Loop holes bit with ol' Lion Heart (they even brought in his dad to tell him to shut up, that was awsome). However the big boys (Hall Nash & Hogan) all got pissed about them and gradualy they were phased out to the point that guys like Benoit, Guerrero and Y2J left the company.
 
I think the lack of competition. WWE is resting on its laurels and TNA is still a bit young.
 
I THINK IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE MMA AND ULTIMATE FIGHTING THAT IS DEMOLISHING WRESTLING AND BOXING (ALTHOUGH BOXING HAS BEEN KILLING ITSELF FOR YEARS). WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO WATCH FAKE FIGHTING WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE REAL THING?
 
b0xr said:
I THINK IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE MMA AND ULTIMATE FIGHTING THAT IS DEMOLISHING WRESTLING AND BOXING (ALTHOUGH BOXING HAS BEEN KILLING ITSELF FOR YEARS). WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO WATCH FAKE FIGHTING WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE REAL THING?
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"For as long as I can remember, my world was filled with liars and bullshitters, loser and pretenders- but I also saw the good side of pro wrestling. To me there is something bordering on beautiful about a brotherhood of big tough men who pretend to hurt one another for a living instead of actualy doing it. Any idiot can hurt someone. "

-Bret "Hit Man" Hart

That works for me.
 
I don't think it was either McMahon's fault nor the Internet. It was what had to happen in order for wrestling to get big.

In order to break out into the mainstream, wrestling had to appeal to a much broader audience. That meant it had to got over even with people who were too sophisticated to pretend that it was real. McMahon took wrestling to the big time, but anyone else would have had to get past kayfabe to go big, just as he did.

By the same token, being so much in the public eye made it hard to keep kayfabe intact. For example the Montreal Screwjob couldn't have happened if wrestling wasn't pre-scripted, so when it became news the only way for people to talk about it was in that context. That's not McMahon's fault; it would have happened to any promoter who had such a high-profile scandal.

Basically wrestling grew up, so wrestling fans had to stop believing in Santa Claus.
 
SlaverTickler said:
You contradict yourself by saying wrestling was unpredictable. If the nWo was attacking people every week then you could predict it. The New World Order was stale in 6 months, ECW was horrible, and WCW blew a huge oprotunity with all the media attention the Screw Job brought in Hart in 97. You also forget that the Cruider Weight Divition was one of the best things to happen in North America in year. Those guys could actualy work, and one of the best angles they ever did in WCW was the King of all Loop holes bit with ol' Lion Heart (they even brought in his dad to tell him to shut up, that was awsome). However the big boys (Hall Nash & Hogan) all got pissed about them and gradualy they were phased out to the point that guys like Benoit, Guerrero and Y2J left the company.
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Cruiserweight division-a concept ECW made popular in america when they started doing that as well as lucha wrestlers. So dont try shitting on ecw, if it was so horrible, you wouldnt have mccmahon and Bishoff raiding ecw for talent and stealing storylines\angles for their own use

Guererro, Benoit, Jericho and others left not because of pride or shit, they left because of MONEY. Talentless sacks like barbarian made 500,000 while guys like Jericho made 100-200,000 or less. Bischoff paid who he liked more, not who the fans liked.
 
b0xr said:
I THINK IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE MMA AND ULTIMATE FIGHTING THAT IS DEMOLISHING WRESTLING AND BOXING (ALTHOUGH BOXING HAS BEEN KILLING ITSELF FOR YEARS). WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO WATCH FAKE FIGHTING WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE REAL THING?
Click to expand...

Why watch a movie about war when you can go to Iraq and live it
 
Lol, I read a book about the demise of the Wrestling Industry and the author came to same conclusions that y'all are summin' up. But to those who don't think Vince McMahon isn't at fault . . ehh he is. But it's more than just him, it's basically everything y'all said, mainly circling around the lack of talent (wrestlers and creative team), the lack of competition, Vince's ego, and Triple H's ego.
 
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