Was there supposed to be an upside to NAFTA?

[P.H. Tickler]

NAFTA, quite possibly the stupidest anti-working-american agreement since states started adopting "At-will" employment over the much fairer "Just-Cause" rule.
Corporations are taking the combination of at-will and NAFTA to get rid of tens of thousands of jobs, they move to mexico or canada where people will work for $5.00US a week, the dumbass government let them bring their products back into america to sell without penalty.
the lone dubious benefit is that if you were affected by NAFTA, many are elligible for career training (for jobs that won't exist when they get done), given the high amount of enrollment in technology training programs directly related to nafta affected layoffs...
1. the market will be flooded with applicants (common is 400 resumes or more for one position)
2. America will have done nothing more than bump up the tech savvy of a bunch of people who will STILL BE UNEMPLOYED.

FACT: there are more certified I.T. professionals in India than in the U.S.A.
FACT: sleazy corporations have already begun to outsource IT positions to india for pennies on the dollar and pay no penalty for it.

outside of the already rich corporate bigwig S.O.B.s who are already rich, who else makes out in the NAFTA scheme? anyone?

It's things like NAFTA and At-Will employment (basically a company can just eliminate all of the jobs for no good reason... sad part is it isn't even an actual law!) that make it hard to pick someone to vote for.
I'm not a minority or a foreigner, so the democrats could care less about me
I'm not rich, so the republicans ignore me too.
Wake up lower-middle class America, this latest screwing by uncle sam could affect YOU next... do you have any idea how much it costs to carry your own health insurance? In another post (the israel one) THIS is why i say we have too many problems right here to be worried about the rest of the world. maybe more will agree with me when they too have a "we're sorry, but we're moving to mexico" letter from an ungrateful corporation who will make a profit on your loss.
It used to be that working hard would get you the elusive American Dream, now that is only available to foreigners and people who are already rich. Again I ask... what's in NAFTA for us? from here it looks like alot of nothing.

 

[Strelnikov]

I've been where you are. It's tough. We were fortunate that my wife has ironclad job security, so we always had health insurance.

You WILL eventually find suitable work. I did, despite age discrimination and racial quotas. Don't lose heart and do something rash.

BTW, what line of work are you in?

Strelnikov

 

[CitY of MicA]

I agree with you, P.H., and I think you answered your own (rhetorical) question. It's the large corporations that benefited from NAFTA, because it meant lower costs for them when moving production overseas. I have no problem with free trade just so long as it's a level playing field. In this (global) market, however, everyone is playing by a different set of rules. Shouldn't factories overseas be held to the same standards with regard to environmental pollution, working conditions, and worker compensation as they are here? If it is totally impratical to come up with a universal standard for these issues (we don't even have a national standard for all of them), then we should have been imposing substantial tariffs on the goods we were bringing into this country. George W. Bush wants to impose a tax on steel that would be imported from the European union. That's all well and good, but what about all the other goods being manufactured overseas and the industries that are being decimated here because of it? In the case of steel, it simply came down to votes.

For years, large corporations were drooling over the prospect of selling their goods to a huge, untapped populace in Asia. We've given away the store in order to appease countries like China and still have very little to show for it.

 

[P.H. Tickler]

to strel

BTW, what line of work are you in?

I was the UNIX/Windows NT4 System Administrator in the R&D department of a shameless (and therefore nameless) Semiconductor manufacturer. I had a decent job, but never had time to go for a degree, now I'm feeling the burn of that mistake. Of the few jobs that do pop up, they want the BSCS, even tho I had almost a decade (2 years as a sys-admin.. should have known the promotion was too good to be true) of IT experience and an MCSE on NT4. The engineers jumped ship, the production line got split between mexico and somewhere in singapore, and the 30 of us at the one site (IT staff and middle management) got hung out to dry, not to mention 1,254 production workers. At their peak, my stocks were worth almost $80,000, now they are roughly worth 4 grand... And I'm holding onto them just in case the facility closing shows up favorably on the NASDAQ.

I've only been out the door for 2 months, and if things don't work out by fall, several of the other IT staffers and I might set up an independent consulting firm. It could be worse, but this was an entirely needless setback. I also found out that the reason we weren't asked to relocate to corporate HQ was because they are now outsourcing to an IT firm in india. They only kept on a skeleton crew there in I.T.

 

[shark]

This type of "outsourcing" has been going on for about 20 years,and the federal government had been subsidizing companies who went out of country.I first learned of this during the Reagan administration,and the practice was still going on during the Clinton administration.

NAFTA's theory was to aid Mexico and create a trade bloc in North America.By letting "some" companies move south,or to Canada to a lesser extent,the Mexicans were to develop their industries and sell in the US at lower prices,thus making the goods cheaper and easier to buy.Mexicans would buy US goods,and as they became more affluent,buy more in the future,creating more US jobs,and so on and so on.

Now for reality:
US jobs are disappearing all over the country.

The Mexicans who were supposed to buy US goods are only affluent around Mexico City and Acapulco.The rest of the place is lucky to stay alive day to day.

The Mexican system is one of the most corrupt going and wants special considerations at every turn...IMF loans,special "guest worker" status to illegals,whom Vicente Fox has referred to as a migration on Fox news,and even US officials overlooking some health and safety violations.

Regulations that US firms must abide by are nonexistent in Mexico..any
thing from environmental and labor.Mexicans also ignore our laws at will and convenience,as was shown by the Fox news interview with Vicente Fox.Despite terrorist threats,disease spread,drug traffic,and the added burden on our social,health,and justice systems,Mexico doesn't give a shit less about doing anything about illegals and then whines about the US guarding our own borders.

As for the future,Mexico strictly controls any formation of unions,has
no plans to control illegals,and is so screwed up that they can't begin to elevate the citizens' standard of living.

Realize that every plant that moves out also takes away jobs that supported it....vendors,subcontractors,construction,etc.

I have a Republican Representative who has openly called NAFTA a "wash at best",but one must also realize that it was Democrats who got NAFTA pushed through.And I always was told they look out for the working class.........................

 

[redway10]

Not to sound insensitive...

Wasn't it just a few years ago that corporations went begging for tech people (before Y2K work ended and the NASDAQ crash), and $50 to $100 per hour contracts were common for young "hot shot" individuals with 2 years experience and no degree while 35 year-old middle managers were being shown the door?

I remember when I had a very hard time finding help desk staff who would work for $12 per hour. Now I have to turn away hundreds of applicants (although the great bulk are over- or under- qualified). If it wasn't for the "at work" principle, I would probably only hire people that came with impeccable recommendations, I would be reluctant to give a less than perfect person a chance. Protectionism is not the answer, it just causes other problems.

I feel terrible for those who are searching for jobs in an ugly tech market, but I feel a lot more sorry for people over 40 who have been shown the door, they are the ones taking the worst beating.

 

[Strelnikov]

It's all part of the same phenomenon, Redway. One of the two big engineering firms in this town is outsourcing industrial design to Poland because Polish engineering subcontractors bill their people's time at $15.00/hour instead of the $100.00/hour an American would cost in salary, benefits and payroll taxes. It's supposed to mean lower prices for everyone, but I haven't seen the price of anything decrease. Just the opposite, in fact.

Maybe free trade is the answer, but it has to be REAL free trade. We've exported jobs and lowered tariffs, but our "trading partners" haven't. Seems to me that tit-for-tat is the way to go. If some other country has laws that disadvantage American products, apply those laws right back at them.

I got the boot at age 44, and again at age 48. Fortunately we were able to live off savings and my wife's salary until I found work again. The folks who are really hurting are people who used to sew overalls for $10.00/hour, or make steel for $20.00/hour, and are now competing with kids for $5.25 jobs stocking shelves at Wal-Mart.

Don't look to the government for help. Neither party gives a rat's ass about Joe Lunchbox. All I can suggest is do as I do, and try to buy American wherever possible.

Strelnikov

 

[Deleted member 2452]

yes there was

there was suposed to be an up side, but it never materialized.
one of the benifits that was to come out of nafta was, to build up
mexicos economy, and industry, so that half their population isn't trying to swim the rio grand every year. and for the half that is already here to want to go back home. this was really a selling point on nafta.
now we have the president of mexico here begging us to take more of his people!
steve

 

[shark]

Much of these same "plans" are being used in the global warming and greenhouse gas agenda.While the largest producers...the West..are being placed under controls,the underdeveloped countries are to be allowed to produce at will until they become developed. Should this not occur,the West will buy "credits" from them to continue to produce
goods and,coincidentally,carbon dioxide.

All this for a theory that cannot be proven.to this day there is no widespread concensus that global warming even exists.Among the scientists who do agree that it does,there is nowhere near a concensus
on what the cause is.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

green house gas causes

the major cause of green house gasses has been proven to be the worlds oceans. to the tune of 90%. what the heck are those fish doing???
steve

 

[shark]

As for "green" topics,the federal government has recently resumed supplying water to farmers in the Klamath Falls area.A little late for some of the farmers and ranchers, but it's something.