Jack, when I say an unmoderated board will become a better place, I mean for everybody. We'll be able to agree or disagree and make calls as we see them, rather than constantly walking on eggshells, holding back our true feelings because they'll get deleted if we post them.
I still don't see what the difference will end up being on this point, Drew. people will hold back their true feelings as well rather than get flamed by the omnipresent Board Trolls. In the current environment there is at least lip service paid to civility, and if one is clever enough I never found it too difficult to disagree, even strongly, within the confines of the Forum Rules. As A mod I don't have that luxury, and I feel the loss at times.
Are you actually going to suggest that the TMF qualifies as "an enlightened bastion of adult conversation?"
I think it's pretty clear that moderation hasn't helped achieve that goal.
I'm suggesting only that this setup is by far superior to an unmoderated forum, or a forum with true moderation, where no post is unscreened by a mod before it hits the board. We are a 'reactive' forum, and registered users have a great deal of latitude. Many posts would never be edited without the help of our membership. Reading this many threads would be nearly impossible on a daily basis. You need to go over the line fairly well to call attention to your post..
I don't deny that unmoderated forums can become this way. In actuality, it will take more than just the removal of censorship to turn this place around. That's just the critical first step. What needs to follow (and this is where I fear I may be hoping in vain) is for the participants to learn to deal effectively with it, instead of reacting with "OMG, I've just been flamed! Mercy me, let me flee to a moderated forum!"
Jack, the truth is that we can
all come out on top. At AMT, I've been flamed, insulted, skewered and fried in every conceivable way. But none of it effected me, because I refused to let it. What the hell do I care of Joe Blow thinks I'm an asshole? Why should I bury my head in the sand because Scary Mary thinks I'm impotent? Any kind of unprovable accusations are like leaves in the wind, easily blown away and/or ignored.
It's an idealitic view Drew, and one that would work if we all had the same thick skin or world view, but seeing as we both admit that's NOT the reality of it, shouldn't we address the actuality and strive to improve as both technology and maturity allow? I know your intent isn't to silence or intimidate the gentler souls among us, so why pretend that they'll survive in a wild west shootout climate? I think the current approach is correct, to nurture an environment that allows criticism, albeit of a limited nature and scope, and let the community develop into the next stage in a natural fashion. There will be a point in time down the road that will spawn another forum....one that will be closer to your vision, imo. It may not be this decade, or even the next, but why not believe that it's inevitable?
What about them? I'll be honest with you, Jack. If they are so sensitive that they're afraid to speak their mind with a clear conscience, when the worse that can happen is a negative response that can be ignored as easily as pressing a button on the keyboard, they probably have no business interacting in any public venue.
Surly warriors are the easiest to take down, if you have a little imagination. If not, they are certainly easy to ignore. If AMT has taught us nothing else, it's taught is the one vital axiom of internet forum interaction: If you ignore the trolls, they will go away. Filters make this a little easier, but the best defense is indifference. Plus, if you have a core of decent people who will come to the defense of those more timid, that also helps. Again, what I'm saying is that if the people adopt a few simple personal policies, they have nothing to fear from the trolls, surly warriors, whoevever.
That certainly can happen, and will happen but only if the people roll over and let it. That's the problem. Few here are inclined to speak up for themselves. I was reading one thread where one guy was saying that the women of the TMF are strong enough to defend themselves from any rude guys making unwarranted advances. Do you know how one woman responded to that? She actually said, "Yes, but why should we have to?" Can you believe that? Like it was asking too much to ask her to speak on her own behalf. It's this codependancy on the mods that I find really scary at times. I seriously wonder how such people function in the real world.
I know I rolled a few paragraphs together here, but they all contain a similar point. You seem to think that there's an intrinsic "right" about abusing people and being able to ignore it when it happens. I don't think we SHOULD ignore or filter our fringe personalities and people, but try to include them in the conversations within limits. I feel they have become social pariahs for the very reason you're condemning them to BE social pariahs. The end result of your system would be to reinforce their outcast status and actually romanticize it in their own minds. The circle would never be broken in that example. You'd have boards full of people who spoke only to their own inner circle, with all outsiders "filtered" and ignored, unable to input in any form. You'll say they deserve it due to their behavior, and you'll have made a judgement call and individually censored them...the same action you find so objectionable here when done on a group basis. *Shrug*...perhaps there IS no answer to this potion of the problem, not while human nature remains so flexible.
It's not all that complicated, Jack. I believe it's within our grasp and not something so lofty as to be unattainable. But it does require people to be able to stand up for themselves and/or ignore frivolous comments. But think of the benefits! You'll actually know what certain people are saying instead of seeing "last edited by Joe Mod..." We'll be able to have a little fire and passion in our discussions from time to time with being edited. You can finally tell that asshole what you really think of him. The mods themselves can finally relax and shed the burden of responsibility they carry. Isn't all that worth a little self-responsibility on the part of each of us?
Hey, I'd love to see a mod-less forum that I could live within comfortably, and I'm willing to wager heavy money that every mod here would agree. But, wading through posts that consist mostly of personal abuse and invective isn't my idea of a good way to utilize the time I spend interacting with my fellow tkphiles. When you see "last edited by" you know full well that it was a problem comment...why do you need to know the particulars? Morbid curiousity or perhaps an interest that can be charitably called voyeuristic? To address your other point, I find it difficult to believe that a user with your grasp of the language has ANY problem conveying exactly what you think of someone, and being able to do it within the guidelines. However, it isn't really your net-given right to tell that so and so what you think of him or her, is it? It's what you desire to do, just as in RL I may desire to run all the red lights and hence get where I'm going much faster. The end result of fulfilling my desire is most likely quite dangerous and will not achieve my stated endpoint.
There's an irony for you. Let's discuss censorship in a censored environment.
🙂 [/B]
