Why does everyone put down the college degree these days?

[rivers121]

Ok here's the situation from someone who knows exactly(ish) what is going on.

Things are changing in the United States, especially within the last decade. Competition within industries is increasing and businesses are putting a much deeper focus on what exactly a college degree means. To top this off, studies are starting to come to light within the past few years showing some troubling statistics and trends in education.

For example, one study which you can google if you so desire, looked at how students success was linked with the universities they went through. The methodology was to look at students who went to big name universities (Harvard, Stanford, Ivy Leagues, MIT, etc) and measured their career success. They they compared these students to students who were accepted to those high caliber schools, but chose to go to lesser schools (good state schools for example). What they found was that, except for slight gains for african americans and latinos, both groups enjoyed almost identical career success. So what does this tell us? It tells us something people have known for a long time: Successful Universities do not make successful people, successful people make successful Universities! It's just like how our graduate departments work, you're never successful because of the graduate department you went to; your graduate departments success depends on how good of students it produces.

We're also finding something which again has long been known in private. Certain degrees are worthless economically. Various programs such as ethnic studies and certain "artsy" degrees (of course, not all) have poor job prospects while others have decent prospects but have poor salaries (ie. social work... which honestly, in my humble opinion, is a horrible horrible field unless you enjoy watching innocent kids being treated in god awful way by "the system"). So we can now add to the issue that people are going into degrees with 0 economic viability.

To add to all of this, with this increased belief in a degree being a guarantee to a career (notice I said belief), universities are trying to bring in more and more people, many of whom are unfit for a college education. People believe this is something they MUST do and don't put effort into seeing whether or not this venture is worth it. Couple this to the mindset of "I just need to pass these stupid classes so I can get a piece of paper" and you have a disaster. MOST of my students seem utterly entrenched in this idea. What they don't realize is that sure you can get a degree and it can get you an entry position at some corporation. However, if you fuck up at that job, it's over. Your degree is nearly worthless. For a bachelors degree, thanks to the watering down of the US educational system, all that is assumed is that you know how to make deadlines. That is literally the biggest thing a bachelors degree tells an employer. And actually, that's not necessarily a bad thing because that is a very important skill. However, once you screw up, any job you apply for afterward that is worth anything will have an HR department that will find out you screwed up on your first job and that's it. No job offer.

Finally, many people are realizing that the watering down has (amazingly!) made for crumby college graduates. I was reading an article the other day which confirmed a suspicion a few people I know have: a majority of computer science graduates can't program. Specifically, it has been argued that a certain portion of CS students have a certain mindset at the start of their studies that is completely wrong and they rarely change the mindset to the correct way of thinking. The people who think incorrectly can't program and pass these so called "fizzbuzz" tests. I also see this problem occurring in my own field and others have seen it in their respective fields. Universities are graduating people who can't do what their degree says they can do.

So put this all together (and there other factors I haven't mentioned) and you can start to understand why there are a large portion of college graduates who have no decent career. College is not for everyone and unfortunately, we live in a country where politicians and idiot HS guidance counselors say that college is key to success. The fact of the matter is that it is NOT. Like everything in the world, when used properly, college will pay off big time. When misused by people with unrealistic expectations, it comes back to bite you in the ass. You absolutely can make a great living off what is taught at trade schools. I have yet to meet 1 electrician or plumber that says "I hate my job and the money, I wish I went to college all those years back".

Also, to toss in something that most people are getting annoyed at, the idea that "people with a college education will earn on average $1M more in their lifetime". The big big problem here is that there is the implication that a college degree = $1M. For 1) this is an average. For every guy who went on to be Steve Jobs, there will be a thousand people who probably made no net gain going to college. Also, many people will be successful regardless of going to college. The wealthy and upper middle class are examples of this. They have, what I like to say, "more access to success". In other words, they are surrounded by people and probably have parents who know how to be successful and show them how to be financially intelligent and what have you. These kinds of people are most likely going to be successful regardless as to whether or not they go to college. Of course, you KNOW they're all going to college. The thing is, of course, it never mattered if they went to college but at the end of the day, their success gets tallied up with the "went to college" part of that calculation. On the other end of things, you have people who are surrounded by unsuccessful people who will fall into the lifestyle of not being successful and wont go to college and these people will go into the "didn't go to college" side. So really, the argument should be "People who make $1M more in their lifetime proooooobably went to college". In other words, correlation =/= causation.

I agree with everything you said. I think basically the only thing that a degree does though is help you get your foot in the door. Even if you don't land a great career, you are probably still going to find something better than what you'd be doing if you didn't go in the first place. It's not always about the money that determines a great job. You can make good money working on high-rise buildings or being a trashman, but how many people would rather sacrifice that salary to find an easier and safer job in an office? I sure as hell wouldn't want to work 300 feet up in the air or have to handle toxic waste all day.

Like you said, and I totally agree, college isn't for everyone. I may be able to do accouting, but I don't know how to work on cars, fix my electrical wiring, or build things in general. That is where people who are good at handyman things come into play. They may not have went to college, but they had a passion for something else that they were intelligent enough to make a career out of. Not all of us are into handyman jobs nor do all of us have enough basic knowledge of those areas to pursue a career in them. That is where college comes into play because otherwise someone like myself would be stuck in a "McJob" the rest of my life because I don't know any trade skills.


Something I read recently summed it up best. Getting a degree doesn't guarantee you success. What you do to make something of yourself once you get the degree will determine your success. The key aspect of that though is that it is important to get the degree so that you have the opportunity to try hard to become successful. If you don't get the degree, chances are you aren't ever going to have a shot at a corporate job because those jobs almost exclusively require i minimum of a bachelor's degree and years of experience. However, you can't get the experience needed for those jobs without getting the degree to get into the field in the first place.

 

[socktickler86]

Something I read recently summed it up best. Getting a degree doesn't guarantee you success. What you do to make something of yourself once you get the degree will determine your success. The key aspect of that though is that it is important to get the degree so that you have the opportunity to try hard to become successful. If you don't get the degree, chances are you aren't ever going to have a shot at a corporate job because those jobs almost exclusively require i minimum of a bachelor's degree and years of experience. However, you can't get the experience needed for those jobs without getting the degree to get into the field in the first place.

Eh, I think we're starting to get beyond that. Good corporations are starting to realize the value of getting these people who are not college educated and actually offering them incentives to take college courses. Remember, the degree requirement is typically just the safeguard. It says "Okay, so you're capable of committing to a long term goal and following it through to completion". It's not saying you're an expert in the field and have tremendous applicable knowledge to use at the job. So these incentivized programs can help find people who are already on your payroll that are capable of moving up the corporate ladder.

A similar thing has existed at engineering firms for a long time as far as I know. Some engineering corporations or major defense companies or what have you will actually pay you to get your doctorate degree! Now that's a HUGE deal. Giving someone an incentive to take a few college classes during the night is one thing, but a doctoral program is 5-6 years where you're supporting your employee and paying their massive tuition bill with them doing absolutely nothing for the company during those years.

So moral of the story really is that good companies will invest where they see ambition and good motivation.

 

[reinforcments]

Good thread.

 

[tickletorments1]

Good thread.

The system is a bit different in the uk but the degree does indicate to a employer that at least you are capable of thinking at a certain level

I obtained a national qualification after a apprenticeship and ended up working in a completely different field, but when promotion came it was because of the qualification.

The cost now to get a degree means that many people opt for some training in order to get a job and bypass the system to some extent.

The lack of jobs means that the better qualified person gets selected to do a basic job, its a catch 22, (damed both ways)

I wish in truth (some ten years further on) that i had gone for a degree, but i was not overly bright and training with day release to get a national qualification (almost equivilent to a degree at the higher level) seemed the best option.

 

[Kennethparker]

It's being considered a waste of money because nothing short of a doctorate is guaranteed to get you a job now a days. Bachelors are practically USELESS and Masters are ALMOST just as so! Why get up to $100,000 in loan debt hell (which a minimum wage job CANNOT HELP YOU PAY BACK) if you'll just be flipping burgers at Wendies or making subs at Quiznos for the next 4 years?

I certainly agree with you. Cos' of late getting a job is much difficult, even if you are a doctorate or so. So it is quite obvious, ain't it?

 

[rivers121]

I certainly agree with you. Cos' of late getting a job is much difficult, even if you are a doctorate or so. So it is quite obvious, ain't it?

That argument made by Roxmysox that you addressed doesn't even make sense. If it's difficult to get a job with a degree, do you think it's gonna be easier to get a job without one?????

 

[paracarl44]

There are a lot of people in the unemployment lines with college degrees.

 

[tickletorments1]

That argument made by Roxmysox that you addressed doesn't even make sense. If it's difficult to get a job with a degree, do you think it's gonna be easier to get a job without one?????

Sometimes having a degree can stop you obtaining a basic job because the firms think you will not settle or that you won't be able to do basic tasks.

There is also the fear by the person conductiong the job interview that you could be better and brighter than them and one day be able to do their job better, so you get blocked.

The employment situation is a mine, field its not good to have a degree and be doing a meaningless dead end job.

My fear is that the youth is the countries future, and without jobs, training, and degrees their future and the countries future looks bleak.

There is a saying in the uk " well its a job" this means well iam lucky i can earn a crust but people need job satisfaction, job structure with promotion and further training.

If the powers that be made less war and worked harder on the home front and the economy things may be different.

 

[socktickler86]

Sometimes having a degree can stop you obtaining a basic job because the firms think you will not settle or that you won't be able to do basic tasks.

In other words, the fabled "overqualified" applicant. Oddly enough I was watching The Office (US version) last night where this played out in a hilarious manner. They were interviewing for a new manager and this guy, Andy, who is a Cornell grad. One of the interviewers, Gabe, hates him because he was dating his ex-gf or something (who happens to be the office secretary) and when his name comes up, Gabe goes "Ok next applicant, Andy Bernard, Cornell grad. Well, he's WAY overqualified, NEXT. Freaken hilarious!

There is also the fear by the person conductiong the job interview that you could be better and brighter than them and one day be able to do their job better, so you get blocked.

However, on the bright side, if you deal with an employer with any decent number of employees, this isn't going to happen. Bigger companies have HR departments and even more-so have people who explicitly do the hiring. It's not that common that you are being interviewed by someone who would worry about you taking their job. I can imagine it's more prevalent at smaller companies, but a company with employees with that attitude isn't going to go anywhere so why bother.

If the powers that be made less war and worked harder on the home front and the economy things may be different.

This kind of thinking seems to be universal and I find it very disappointing. People seem to think it's the government's job to make work for them. Over here in the US (I don't know how it is for you), the entrepreneurial spirit seems almost dead .

 

[rivers121]

Sometimes having a degree can stop you obtaining a basic job because the firms think you will not settle or that you won't be able to do basic tasks.

There is also the fear by the person conductiong the job interview that you could be better and brighter than them and one day be able to do their job better, so you get blocked.

The employment situation is a mine, field its not good to have a degree and be doing a meaningless dead end job.

My fear is that the youth is the countries future, and without jobs, training, and degrees their future and the countries future looks bleak.

There is a saying in the uk " well its a job" this means well iam lucky i can earn a crust but people need job satisfaction, job structure with promotion and further training.

If the powers that be made less war and worked harder on the home front and the economy things may be different.

Yeah, you're right, having a degree can stop you from getting some jobs. So.......let's all shoot for being garbage collectors instead of getting a degree and trying for something better. Really intelligent advice (insert sarcastic voice as I say this).

 

[rivers121]

There are a lot of people in the unemployment lines with college degrees.

Statistics will show that there are a LOT more people in the unemployment lines WITHOUT a college degree.

 

[socktickler86]

Statistics will show that there are a LOT more people in the unemployment lines WITHOUT a college degree.

Exactly. The unemployment rate for college graduates is still low relatively. The only reason people can get annoyed about being an unemployed college graduate is because no one gets into $80,000 worth of debt to be a high school graduate 😛.

 

[tickletorments1]

Yeah, you're right, having a degree can stop you from getting some jobs. So.......let's all shoot for being garbage collectors instead of getting a degree and trying for something better. Really intelligent advice (insert sarcastic voice as I say this).

IAM not saying don't go for a better job, but if the better job is not there (lets be honest there arn't that many jobs about) then a degree can be a hinderence in getting a basic job.

Regarding basic jobs employers want people who can do things and they don't want to spend money training people (uk anyway)

But a person with a degree who has not got skills or training needs to live and earn a wage,and if the better job is not available he may seek a job lower down the specktrum, and the degree may well mean he is over qualified.

Read all the comments i have made and the questions that i answered, don't take the thing out of sequence and remember iam talking about things that have happened to me in real life not theory.

I done the apprenticeship got both trained and qualified but ended up having to do something different because the jobs were not there.

I don't need a sarcastic (lowest form of whit) voice its the voice of life and experience i use here.

 

[ThePoorMaidsTum]

I still think college degrees have real merit behind them, but of course it depends on the degree. Possibly part of the problem is there are so many graduates with liberal arts degrees (inc. yours truly) flooding the market, while specific skill degrees are undersubscribed.

Given the sluggish economic recovery, people might raise an eyebrow at this but there are actually a lot of employers out there who are struggling to fill key roles because they say the available job seekers are not a good skills match for what they need.

Now, as a poster earlier in the thread mentioned, this suggests a worrying disconnect between education and business and it is something that needs to be looked at as a matter of urgency. This doesn't mean that college degrees aren't worthwhile, just that they need to be overhauled to become more relevant to the world of work.

It's definitely true that the traditional four-year degree is not for everybody, and for some it makes more sense to learn a trade - there are a lot of occupations out there (plumbers, electricians, welders are ones which I keep hearing about) that are crying out for people. The problem is the way these jobs are perceived - dirty, physically demanding, for those who do not excel academically. There needs to be a concerted collaborative effort from government, education and business to improve the image of skilled trades - someone with the right skills can make a very comfortable living, and can eventually own their own business which of course in turn creates more jobs. Obviously jobs growth is something we could do with a bit more of currently.

Having said all that, it wouldn't be a path I would have taken if I had to do it all over again, nor would I necessarily recommend it to my kids.

Rather than talking down the degree, though, there needs to be a collaborative effort to make sure workforce entrants are being equipped with relevant skills - especially "soft" skills like intellectual curiosity, adaptability and empathy. Demographics mean as the Boomers retire there are fewer young people coming in to the workforce to take their place. We need those that are to be workforce-ready instead of graduate-ready.

 

[socktickler86]

Rather than talking down the degree, though, there needs to be a collaborative effort to make sure workforce entrants are being equipped with relevant skills - especially "soft" skills like intellectual curiosity, adaptability and empathy. Demographics mean as the Boomers retire there are fewer young people coming in to the workforce to take their place. We need those that are to be workforce-ready instead of graduate-ready.

For the most part I agree with everything else you said. This part, however, seems to be a huge misconception about what can be "taught". Just like 'critical thinking', things like intellectual curiosity and empathy aren't qualities that can be taught. Students who can't critically think typically can't critically think even after completing college and if they're not empathetic before college, they won't be after typically.

 

[Mash]

For the most part I agree with everything else you said. This part, however, seems to be a huge misconception about what can be "taught". Just like 'critical thinking', things like intellectual curiosity and empathy aren't qualities that can be taught. Students who can't critically think typically can't critically think even after completing college and if they're not empathetic before college, they won't be after typically.

You can't teach them, no...but you can introduce them to the concepts.

Contrary to popular belief, every human being that doesn't have a debilitating mental disability is capable of critical thinking. It's not that they can't critically think...it's that they don't want to. A goal of a lot of college professors is to promote critical thinking, and put emphasis on it.

There are...certain...cultural influences out there today, as there have been for thousands of years that do not like critical thinking. These influences are ultimately what is holding our country back culturally, economically, academically, technologically, and scientifically. However, that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[DarkPoet]

I don't have a degree. I'm currently making 75k/yr from my day job, plus another 10k from my own small business (after 95% profit re-investment). Still, I do not believe that a degree is worthless. I just see it as worthless for my day-job (I'm a Sr. Software Engineer, a skill I started teaching myself in my pre-teens).

I took a programming internship my sophomore year of college. Soon after, my father's business went bankrupt. So I couldn't afford to go to college for a while. I kept teaching myself the skills I needed for the career path I was looking for and let my work speak for itself. Most technical careers require both a resume and a technical interview to show my grasp of the subject. As long as my resume gets me into the technical interview, I'm 85% certain of getting the job, and due to my work experience, my resume has a good chance of getting me to that interview. So as far as getting work in my field, the absence of a degree is not getting in my way at all. Though I'm sure I would be able to ask for maybe another 5-10k/yr more if I had a bachelors.

For me, a college degree is more about personal accomplishment and growth in a management position. In the software field, it's an accepted fact that the majority of people with software engineering degrees have no clue what they're doing.

 

[socktickler86]

Contrary to popular belief, every human being that doesn't have a debilitating mental disability is capable of critical thinking. It's not that they can't critically think...it's that they don't want to. A goal of a lot of college professors is to promote critical thinking, and put emphasis on it.

Exactly! I use to teach the physics labs at my university and we would have students who would end up in situations where something was wrong with their experiment. You try to tell them to think about what's going on and you can just see it in their eyes that they don't even want to try.

College professors aren't in the business of promoting critical thinking unfortunately. Universities just want professors to go by this guideline and their performance is based off anonymous student evaluations which are utter nonsense. Most students don't want to be challenged and studies have shown very clearly that professors who are extremely easy will get better evaluations than those who challenge their students.

There are...certain...cultural influences out there today, as there have been for thousands of years that do not like critical thinking. These influences are ultimately what is holding our country back culturally, economically, academically, technologically, and scientifically. However, that's a discussion for another thread.

Agreed. I believe it's a sense of entitlement/unrealistic expectations. These two concepts require a lack of critical thinking in my opinion. "Hey I just got a $200k position in a VHS production company a year after DVDs overtook VHS sales. I better go buy a new BMW, $1M house, and summer home since I deserve them and I expect this position to exist 10 years down the road". Same idea here. I went to a large jumble of buildings, was talked at by various professors for 4 years and wrote a paper or 2, I'm entitled to a better way of life despite me developing 0 skills in an economy with double-digit unemployment.

In today's market, the education, sorry to say, is useless. Unless you are a Dr or a lawyer. I have my degree, useless. I know people with Massters who are trying to get jobs at Walmart. This country is in a huge mess, and unfortunatley, I don't think it will ever be fixed.

Everyone I know (recent grads that is) is in employed in their field (save for 1 who.... God, I could go on about her for a week straight but nevermind). What did you get your degree in? It very much depends on the skills you acquired and how well you worked towards getting a job. While I know everyone in my field has a job, I know people outside of my field who are unemployed.

For example, I know 2 psych grads, neither are employed. One never really put in much effort into finding a job. The second never even knew what jobs she could get and didn't really try finding out. My niece gathered tens of thousands of dollars worth of students loans to attend a private teaching university to do what? Work at Verizon as a telephone support person. She had given up on teaching before she even graduated.

I also know people who know a lot, do put in the legwork, and are still jobless because some industries are hurting more than most.

It's a hugely complicated situation, but education is not worthless. It's simply no longer a magic ticket to a good life. You have to use it correctly and even then it's not a guarantee.

 

[ThePoorMaidsTum]

For the most part I agree with everything else you said. This part, however, seems to be a huge misconception about what can be "taught". Just like 'critical thinking', things like intellectual curiosity and empathy aren't qualities that can be taught. Students who can't critically think typically can't critically think even after completing college and if they're not empathetic before college, they won't be after typically.

Good point - sorry, let me rephrase that a smidgen. More emphasis should be put on the importance of soft skills. You're right of course that a great deal of these cannot be taught but education curricula can be structured in such a way that these skills are given much more of a fighting chance to develop.

 

[socktickler86]

Good point - sorry, let me rephrase that a smidgen. More emphasis should be put on the importance of soft skills. You're right of course that a great deal of these cannot be taught but education curricula can be structured in such a way that these skills are given much more of a fighting chance to develop.

The question is still "how?". In my mind, and I could be wrong, the best way to actually practice critical thinking is creating large projects integrating multiple subjects (within a course that is) and figuring out a project that is at once doable yet complex enough that it doesn't boil down to a correct ordering of rote memorization.

Of course, any course that properly tests these skills will have tremendous failure rates and that'll run headlong into the problems of students these days dictating the difficulty of instruction.