Why No Hardcore Tickling Sites Yet?

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

Sth? Sith? Such?

What the devil is that supposed to be?

something?

 

[TickledToDeath]

What scenario would be desired? M/F F/M F/F (all of which would include multiple ticklers at times) MF/F FM/M FFF/F FFF/M and so forth

 

[birdburdy]

RE: Why No Hardcore Tickling Sites Yet?

Before I start to explain why, I think it's worth commenting on the original poster's use of the word "yet" in the thread title. By saying that there isn't anything hardcore yet you are suggesting that hardcore tickling is yet to come, and that maybe things are going to improve.
This isn't the case.

Unfortunately while it feels like things in online TK can only get better they have been getting worse for a long time now. By "worse" and "better" here I mean entirely subjectively, but with respect to hardcore tickling. Back 15 years when VHS and film-based cameras were the only option there were some real intense tickling videos online, and most of these weren't commercially produced and didn't use models. Things have actually been getting less and less intense, and more and more commercial.

A more correct rephrasing of this thread title would therefore be, "Why no hardcore tickling these days?" or "Where did all the hardcore tickling go?".

Up until a HOM magazine called "Tied and Tickled" TK was marginalized as a small part of BDSM. After that and the creation of the AMT group (alt.multimedia.tickling) TK exploded into popularity, and it's not at all surprising. Tickling not only appealed to creative S/M doms but also to much of the foot fetish crowd.

And this is where the problems in online TK started, and finished.

There were a spate of disagreements between the online BDSM and foot-fetish-tickling crowd. The BDSMers wanted to display "edgy" often "less-consenual" material, with the same hardcore bondage restraints they were used to. The foot fetishists wanted foot rubbing, cute but inevitably fake giggling and they did not want to see or even hear about extreme real tickling (they made that very, very clear).

To cut a long story short and simultaneously stop a long post getting very long, the vocal majority won. The real intense ticklers were flamed by existing commercial TK producers until they got fed up and left the online communities.

You will still occasionally see some of the pics and clips from "back in the day".

 

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

On the upside, it appears to me that sites like hogtied, hardtied, and societyS/M and others are actually increasing their incidental use of tickling in their more rigorous B&D activities. It's usually a brief interlude, but I'll take it over the weak material I'm seeing from most tickling/foot franchises.

 

[Kujman1]

What you explained, Burdy, is right on target.

Now I'm going back ever further, to the 1970's, when material was top notch, live demos at clubs were the rage- and we used real people. There was no tickling fetish yet. There were some very very talented people out there. After doing layouts and photos for Hogtied, Knotty, Strict, Stocks and Bonds and more for House of Milan (HOM) and slipping in serious hardcore tickling where I could, it still took me over a year to convince Barb Behr (with the help of Robert Bishop) to let me create a new magazine with my layouts then called Teather'd and Feather'd- which turned into Tied and Tickled- along with drawings fomr Bob and stories from Frank (Campbell). She was shocked when the first test run of it went off the shelves. Due to legal restrictions it took more than a year to get the actual run of T&T going.. and I stuck with it up into the 80's till she left.

However as the 80's went on and finally the internet came along we all watched the quality of players and people and materials slip further and further. Whereas I had used many real time people girl next door folks in my layouts- it was slowly turning into all T&A, feather dusters, all F/F, fake laughing, models left and right, bad bondage...and it's simply gotten worse and worse over the many years. The AMT shattered it by letting every jerk in the world take over until the Tickling fetish had no class or quality left, and became the butt of jokes within the S/M crowd (from which it sprang).

My own material was always hardcore, and back then readily accepted and enjoyed. As the new internet crowd took over, anyone who could make up a name like "Master Tickler" suddenly proclaimed themselves to be an expert, experienced top-- yet in reality they knew little outside of looking at photos online. I did live demos in clubs for years with tickling as a hardcore torture.. but these so-called tops refused to learn from anyone who had truly mastered it, they had no experience, they couldn't tie a knot, make any stocks, or do a scene worth spitting at it. And others learned it from them because it took no effort, and so on. This is much how it remains today.

So what changed it back then? Because they lacked the experience of "how" to do it, they simply went the way of making everything so consensual and fake that it was ridiculous- it took no effort or creativity- they just copied- up to the today where there is nothing hardcore or orignal out there at all.. and I doubt any real tickling-as-torture on the public market as far as I've ever seen. They'd rather see blondes and boobs than hardcore. People who seek more are finally catching on and speaking up, such as in this thread. But they'll never overpower those that simply want it fast, cheap, and easy. Perhaps one day there'll be room for both again.

This is also why I (and a handful like me) stopped putting out heavy materials and abandoned the ideas of any hardcore sites. Ticklers simply aren't ready for it, and probably never will be.

Since those times I've done work for INSEX and Hogtied, setup and design scenes- where you'd think they'd really go for hardcore tickling.. but even their tops don't listen nor get it right and simply 'slip it in' to appeal to a larger audience. Same thing all over again. They could do so much more- but never will. The models they do it upon are not ticklish. I know-- I've been there. However I have known models there who are extremely ticklish and with coaxing from me would do such a set for myself or other tops ... but those producers never go that route because they feel there's no money in it to make it worth the while. They're probably right from a business standpoint.

I have no answer other than thanks to the actions and bogus materials bandied about the tickling fetish is still looked upon as "silly", "lightweight", "not serious".. and shallow.

Of course people should have what they want, light or heavy. But you'll never see heavy hardcore tickling. It could all be so much better. More creative. better bondage, better reactions. The talent is out there, somewhere. Times will change again, and better material (and tops!) will reappear.

RE: Why No Hardcore Tickling Sites Yet?

Before I start to explain why, I think it's worth commenting on the original poster's use of the word "yet" in the thread title. By saying that there isn't anything hardcore yet you are suggesting that hardcore tickling is yet to come, and that maybe things are going to improve.
This isn't the case.

Unfortunately while it feels like things in online TK can only get better they have been getting worse for a long time now. By "worse" and "better" here I mean entirely subjectively, but with respect to hardcore tickling. Back 15 years when VHS and film-based cameras were the only option there were some real intense tickling videos online, and most of these weren't commercially produced and didn't use models. Things have actually been getting less and less intense, and more and more commercial.

A more correct rephrasing of this thread title would therefore be, "Why no hardcore tickling these days?" or "Where did all the hardcore tickling go?".

Up until a HOM magazine called "Tied and Tickled" TK was marginalized as a small part of BDSM. After that and the creation of the AMT group (alt.multimedia.tickling) TK exploded into popularity, and it's not at all surprising. Tickling not only appealed to creative S/M doms but also to much of the foot fetish crowd.

And this is where the problems in online TK started, and finished.

There were a spate of disagreements between the online BDSM and foot-fetish-tickling crowd. The BDSMers wanted to display "edgy" often "less-consenual" material, with the same hardcore bondage restraints they were used to. The foot fetishists wanted foot rubbing, cute but inevitably fake giggling and they did not want to see or even hear about extreme real tickling (they made that very, very clear).

To cut a long story short and simultaneously stop a long post getting very long, the vocal majority won. The real intense ticklers were flamed by existing commercial TK producers until they got fed up and left the online communities.

You will still occasionally see some of the pics and clips from "back in the day".

 

[Inverse]

I know this thread will go out soon~ and that the last posts are kind of grim from a perspective standpoint. Yet I have to say, great posts. Many of us are too young to understand where a lot of you are coming from.

However due to that, you can't really expect Gen Y to pick up the pieces you speak of. Unless the material is made available, I don't see how demand will ever come up. Most people don't even know what you're talking about to even ask for it. Where are these 1970/80's hardcore clips? Were they ever restored and put online? Are they available for purchase? I do know one thing, if a technology doesn't adapt~ it dies. That goes as well for the moods and temperance of a buying public.

I love 80's hair metal, but you can't keep selling albums when the times have changed. One must adapt, and bring the public what they want. Motley Crue may never be what they were, but they released an album recently that was still quite enjoyable by their fans. They didn't let Blink 182 and Lady Gaga tell them to stop screaming into the microphones and headbanging with long blonde hair.

 

[Kujman1]

Good points all!

I know this thread will go out soon~ and that the last posts are kind of grim from a perspective standpoint. Yet I have to say, great posts. Many of us are too young to understand where a lot of you are coming from. .

Yes, true... and there are very few ways to describe it. Point being you look at materials some 30 years old or more and place it side by side with today's materials/videos and today's stuff pales in comparison. That says a lot.

Sadly today's producers do have access to some of the tops and creative guys who did that quality- yet won't use them nor ask for assistance in their productions. We must assume this means they're simply not interested in doing better- just in making fast cash. They claim "tickling torture" when it is anything but. They claim "true sand burying", when a child could escape their efforts. They make a great title (like a great screen name) but can't actually live up to the claim. No one questions it because they're so desperate to get any TK material that they grab what they can like a man dying of thirst in the desert grabbing at a mirage. Who can really blame them?

Using models and saying it's realtime or torture is silly- they know what's coming and are doing it for the moola. Likewise with poorly planned filming and stories, non-ticklish entities, terrible bondage. No one puts in any effort, or at least uses those that would put in the effort.

I've offered to make, direct and produce films for free for these producers just to get quality out there again- they can keep every dime. As one producer (in this group) wrote back to me, "No, then they wouldn't want to film with you because it would be real". So...what are they saying? You tell me.

There's no way to change the attitudes of ticklers/producers today quick enough to utilize those that are experienced and creative enough and still around to deliver the quality and hardcore scenes.

However due to that, you can't really expect Gen Y to pick up the pieces you speak of. .

Why not? Creativity and originality and true bondage/capture/tickling-as-torture scenes would be revered. It takes work, thought, planning, going the extra mile.

Unless the material is made available, I don't see how demand will ever come up..

Good point. Can't argue that. However if that material was made available, and current producers starting to lose business due to it, I can guarantee you the producers would do all in their power to slam, flame, and ruin the people producing said material. It's the nature of the beast.

Most people don't even know what you're talking about to even ask for it.

Well, a recent poll suggests most people in this country don't even know who George Washington was... yet he began so much upon which we now build upon.

All people have to do is look back at who came first, who did what, who created what-- peek at the history of your fetish. It's fascinating.

We don't mean to sound so down on it... it could just be so much better. I don't see it happening any time soon. But a good place to start would be to ask the current producers why they don't offer more intense and strive for better scenes or bondage or originality... try that. You'll get some interesting excuses lol.

 

[mrtkler1]

Thinking now: a lot of Thatknismoguy's stuff could be considered hardcore. At least in the videos I've seen, the stocks are sturdy-looking and more often than not he ties toes back for maximum immobility. It really created a more helpless environment that made the video more enjoyable to watch.

 

[Violetta]

So here we have it. The true Catch 22. There used to exist better things, but no one is allowed to see them because the current producers have taken steps to be the only game in town. Yet without the exposure to something better, no one will ever raise their expectations and demand a better product.

Yes, we BDSM fetishists sit back and laugh at the ticklies, and rightly so. What a failure of a fetish.

 

[tkl-pen]

I would love to see more hard-core stuff - there was a chap in the Philippines making a few of these several years ago but some of the milk-toast tickling yokels went at him and he quit making them - if it was legal for me to film them in Canada, I'd be all over it - good intense tickle torture videos, with a real villain tickling a helpless damsel, are to my knowledge nonexistant - there are some good sites like Tickle Abuse but that's mostly girls playing with each other and little more.

 

[Kujman1]

So here we have it. The true Catch 22. There used to exist better things, but no one is allowed to see them because the current producers have taken steps to be the only game in town. Yet without the exposure to something better, no one will ever raise their expectations and demand a better product.

Yes, we BDSM fetishists sit back and laugh at the ticklies, and rightly so. What a failure of a fetish.

I think you've summed it up perfectly :52:

 

[juggernaut]

I see everyone's points. I don't, however, think they're all equally valid.

If you're going to talk about "back in the day", at least acknowledge that the playing field is different now. Without getting too involved here and offering a more drive-by opinion, I can say I understand it was tougher back when you had to shell out for printing costs, mailing lists, etc and trying to get your stuff out there. I don't buy that the internet isn't big enough for everyone.

If someone wants to make more hardcore stuff, they can do it. Simple. They can put it in a clips4sale store or maintain their own site. Everyone here seems to be supporting the notion that there's interest in it. So to just sit in a forum and list reasons why it wouldn't be accepted now in a different era is just more excuse making. Make something, make it available, and let people buy it. But trying to speak for the mindset of an entire group of fetishists is a waste of time in my opinion. What could happen? A targeted group of people who're begging for this stuff could ignite a newly revived aspect of it and even maybe convert some along the way.

I'm in the marketing/advertising business now for 18 years. I'm aware of costs. But I don't know that the people wanting to see someone tickled differently are going to insist on a fully produced renaissance setting, costumes, and all the frills. I can easily see someone in their basement with a homemade setup providing this kind of product. C'mon... if thousands of people will pay to see someone's legs draped over the edge of the same couch for 10 years, surely there would be some interest in a more focused scene with less theatrics.

And look at the evolution of quality from companies that have been around longer than 2 years. Fine... start smaller with fewer models, less props and costs as low as possible. Drop the rumor-it-exists bomb in a couple forums and watch it sell. And reinvest the money in a new model, better lights... whatever. It can grow slow if necessary. But I just don't accept excuses for not doing anything based on the historical model of money and interest. Case in point: look at how many people still want Kuj's stuff. I can't say how many vids he's made available, but I doubt it's many. And I'd bet the farm that if he put it out there, 200 people would buy it before the end of the day. I'm just using him as an example as he's recognizable in the forums.

It's just weird to have producers and people begging for material all hanging out in the same places and no one can seem to figure out how to put what they want in the fans' hands. Dear God... make one freaking vid and try it again in these new generations and see what happens. The only guarantee is that sitting and making excuses will do nothing. I guess no one wants to be known in the future as the ones who brought it back.

I will point out one wrinkle... people will have to accept that not everyone looks like Cindy Crawford. I'm sure it'd be awesome to see some everyday women of different ages, sizes and races in these scenarios. But you have to be in it for all the senses, not just the looks.

And before everyone says "Well if it's that easy... YOU do it", I'm not a producer nor do I ever hope to be. I just don't think it's as risky now as it might have been in the past. I imagine people were a bit hesitant to start mixing in handjobs with tickling - or any of the other things they do- at first, but as we've seen from the explosion of different stores and overnight "producers"... people are spending money on a lot of different things now.

Lastly, I'm fairly certain someone is posting under two different names here. Just sayin'.

 

[the_jimmy_james]

It actually is amazing. To see the number of people who can say "I will pay for this product," only to be told by some guy that there's no audience for it.

The sheer amount of foolishness is astounding, both from the halfass producers and the asshole wusses who flame people who want something different.

Can't you people who stand for mediocrity just like... Get on a boat bound for North Korea and never come home?