About BDSM hypocrisy and being hated as a tickle fan

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 28, 2005

This came up in an e-mail I wrote to someone on this board, and I thought I would share it. All feedback will be appreciated.

Even though I discovered the tickling community in 1999 when I came across Jack's Rack, it took me until recently to do something about my hidden fetish.

One reason: I have met people who practice BDSM, and I have been supportive of them even though BDSM does not appeal to me. None of them knows that I like tickling; to them, I am vanilla boy. I have never been able to say anything or so much as ask them a question about tickling (which would have spared me a lot of negative self-image) because they go on and on about how ridiculous the tickle fans are, how pain cannot be warm and controlled during tickling, and all this other stuff.

I no longer associate with them.

Now that I have admitted to myself that I have this non-vanilla interest, I realize that I am open to friendship with BDSM people who are open to accepting that I like what I like even if they do not like it. Otherwise, however, I am tired of being made to think that what they like is good while what I like is bad.

Even the book I have just read, When Somene You Love is Kinky, defends practices that make my skin crawl but only mentions tickling pejoratively (basically something to avoid/something to make sure you say you are against in negotiations--and this happenes about four or five times, too). Yet, its authors foster the lie of the open-minded kink community.

People on this board seem to think that the BDSM community is open-minded. I say: There must certainly be some cool, progressive people in it, but on the whole they are a bunch of hypocrites.

That rant felt good. I have been waiting for years to say it!

milagros317 · Jun 28, 2005

There certainly are people in the BDSM community who are hypocrites, exactly as you describe.

There are also others, such as John Warren, author of "The Loving Dominant", whose attitude is YKINMK-BYKIOK.

Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK

Jimblast · Jun 28, 2005

Interesting thread here....

I've been in the BDSM society for quite some time now. I've practiced Gor (now THAT'S a group of closed minded people!), and got away from it because of the people. There are many open minded people who practice BDSM. There are also many pseudo doms, Masters, subs, and slaves out there. Tickling within the BDSM community has long been considered a 'hard limit', with similarities to breath play but considered even worse.

I've been on a personal crusade to change that type of thinking. Tickling not only is a form of touch, it can also enhance a sexual relationship if done right.

I've noted that many in the BDSM community are extraordinarily judgemental. However, the same holds true for religeous organizations and clubs, including charitable organizations. When you gather a group of humans, many whom have insecurities will lash out at others to hide their own deficiencies.

Bottom line, BDSM and many fetishes go hand in hand. Nobody can judge anyone else. I'm not into body biproducts like defacation nor 'golden showers', but I certainly don't judge those people. You will find many who are open enough to be educated. BDSM and tickling work very well together. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Tickling, like BDSM in general, involve something in a relationship that many do not understand, and that's trust. It's the key element. The people who do understand what the key element in tend to be real.

Mimi · Jun 28, 2005

Unfortunately, it goes both ways. As with any aspect of life, a disappointingly large number of people have the opinion that you should be open minded to THEIR views, opinions, and interests, but are unwilling to return that curtesy. It happens in political beliefs, religious beliefs, cultural beliefs, and extends to fetishes as well. Many of the BDSM folks, like the ones you speak of, have the opinion that tickling is childs play and a waste of time and can not be taken seriously as a form of BDSM. On the other hand, many ticklephiles have the opinion that people into heavier forms of BDSM are inhuman freaks and while they see nothing wrong with tying a girl up and tickle torturing her until she's crying hysterically and can't breathe, they feel that tying a girl up and spanking or flogging her until she is crying is cruel and barbaric. Extremely hypocritical, as you stated.

We actually have a rather impressive amount of members here at the TMF who engage in other forms of BDSM, and who are active members in the BDSM community outside of the TMF. So the two can definitely go hand in hand quite harmoniously. Personally, I feel that people with fetishes such as ours should be more open minded to people with other fetishes. We KNOW what it's like to feel alone and weird in our kink....why cast that view of unnacceptance upon others? IMO, anything that takes place between two consenting adults is cool by me. May not be my cup of tea, but if they're engaging it in with a fellow fetishist, then it's all good.

On a side note, I have heard some members of the BDSM community state they will not engage in tickling because it's too much for them. It's a hard limit they can not tolerate. One can condition ones mind to tolerate and even turn off pain, but tickling is nearly impossible to do so with for most people. It means a total loss of control over your own reactions and sensations, and sends most people over the edge far quicker than forms of pain or denial. So not all view tickling as the toddler fetish of the BDSM world.

Mimi

EDIT: Forgive me for the fact that much of my post echo's Jims comments above. We were apparently typing our replies at the same time, and reading one anothers thoughts while doing so...lol.

Oddjob0226 · Jun 28, 2005

Jim and Mimi are right on in what they say - especially Mimi's observation about tickling and control for a BDSM person. Pain is something that can wear someone down, or people can tolerate at different levels, but with tickling, you're either ticklish or not. Tickling, even a little bit, is hard to take and confuses the senses with that odd pleasure/pain combination; anything beyond a little bit is just worse. In pain play, people can often concentrate or focus on something, channeling their sensations and the chemical reactions goin on in their head. With tickling, try concentrating at all!

But then again, think of all the vanilla people who would think we are weird, even though most of us are probably regular vanilla people 90% of the time in our daily life. The hypocrisy of DBSM people stings a little more, since we're all be considered odd in society at large, but we are, for the most part, regular, normal people, members of that at-large society, yet still looked at funny for our interest by people who are, for the most part, us.

ShadowTklr · Jun 28, 2005

No Surprises Here...

If there is one thing I have found to be a constant throughout life, it is that people will ALWAYS find a way to separate themselves from others. There will ALWAYS be a "Them" and "Us" perspective. It doesn't matter who they are, or what they represent, there will ALWAYS be a reason why others are not as good...ALWAYS.

Coincidentally, the common denominator for all groups who originally form out of a single mindset, is that they will eventually degrade into cliques and class structures, regardless of their espousal of equality. This happens with sports teams, neighborhoods, community activist commitees, school boards, fetish groups, sexual orientation communities, etc.

The BDSM community is no different than the Tickling community, or the gay community, for that matter. The basic mindset contains many parallels, but personal prejudice, embarrassment, or feelings of superiority will ALWAYS bring about the mutation of even the most cohesive of organizations.

Open mindedness for some people is an admission that THEIR way is NOT the ONLY way. This is a characteristically difficult step for many to take. Ignore the closed minded slobs, and concentrate on the people with whom you can expand your understanding and your enjoyment.

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 28, 2005

I can definitely agree with all of the posts that followed my initial one. Again, I would not practice BDSM--not even as part of tickling, as I would certainly not wish to be restrained--but I have no problem with those who mummify, spank, whip, or whatever. I respect them, but I am furious when they cannot respect me. And some BDSM people have lost me forever and will never know why.

Shadow Tklr also rightfully brought up the gay community. In my fantasy, we, who suffer so much at the hands of oppressors, should embrace all. Instead, the racism, ageism, sexism, and heterophobia I see in the gay community sickens me. It is not all, as I know many progressive gays from all walks of life. Is is too many, however.

TickledToDeath · Jun 28, 2005

Hypocrisy in the B/D(and S/M too for that matter)world?
Definitely.
They call it childs play baby game. They put it and us down yet amazingly, Tickling is a HARD LIMIT!
It is made fun of and put down by those who couldn't/can't handle it!

Not ALL in their world and community but enough to make a "they".
They are very vocal sometimes, aren't they?
They also can be soooooo wrong and misguided too and they also sometimes speak out of turn.

TTD :shock:

dtrell · Jun 28, 2005

i think this would be a good thread for mistress stephanie locke to comment on....

TickledToDeath · Jun 28, 2005

dtrell said:
i think this would be a good thread for mistress stephanie locke to comment on....

Stephanie is one of the exceptions of the rule.
Those are out there indeed but far and between. Actually, the ones who are into B/D and S/M who are into tickling and or tickle torture are members here would be part of the exceptions of the rule.

TTD

TickledToDeath · Jun 28, 2005

Indeed intertwining the BDSM and tickling world is well worth it.
Making a mere tickling become more intense with better bondage and sadistic tickling/tickle torture. A malange of both can be achieved with great success althougth those in the s/m world, or alot of them I should say have tickling as a hard limit just as alot of those into tickling will not want to get paddles till they are raw on the tush!
Some will, and I know who some of you are

Tis not a blanket statement but at least one hell of a quilt!
A general truth but not total by all means.

Myself, I love all levels of ticking from mild to quite eveil sadistic and intense tickle torture which sort of has a slice of s/m and b/d in it.

TTD

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 28, 2005

Midnight Mage said:
GoForTheLaugh -- do you judge most tickling fetishists based on the large enough number of very vocal, very vicious homophobes who troll these boards?

I'd be willing to bet that most tickle fetishists, like most human beings, are quite homophobic. There are, however, many open-minded, progressive tickle fetishists on this board.

As I posted earlier in this thread, more gay people than not are heterophobic--and I believe that heterophobia is as bad as homophobia. I want nothing to do with gays who hate others (unless they are recently out and truly do not know better or feel isolated).

Most human beings have an us vs. them mentality, whether in religion, politics, sexuality, or even in discussions of which Saturday morning cartoons are 'best'. It is very hard to break from that, and I admit that I, too, struggle.

I also made it clear (in my first post on this thread) that I have no problem believing that there are BDSM folks who are "cool" and "progressive"--in short nothing like the people I encountered.

My post is not meant as an attack on anyone who practices BDSM. As I stated in my first post: "I am open to friendship with BDSM people who are open to accepting that I like what I like even if they do not like it."

However, more and more I realize that I need to understand a lot of things that I have repressed about my sexuality, and if I do not express them honestly, there is no point in expressing them. I use this board for that purpose, as I believe that is one of the reasons this board exists.

If I have offended anyone, including you, I apologize.

I would rather call myself an asshole and say that I was out of line than be divisive on this board.

Midnight Mage said:
I've encountered some resistance to tickling in the years I've been involved in BDSM, sure, but for every one closed mind I've encountered in the scene, I've encountered three or four delightful, intelligent, open ones. The attitudes which pervade this thread make me wonder just how experienced in BDSM some of you really are.

I admit that, other than conversations with BDSM practitioners over coffee and sandwiches, I have no experience with BDSM.

I also admit that you are correct when you call tickling a branch of BDSM.

Finally, if folks who practice BDSM do not like tickling, that is fine. It does not appeal to everyone, and no one should be forced into anything that makes him or her uncomfortable. All I ask is that no one put me down for what I like.

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 28, 2005

Mage: You were right to call me out.

Suffice it to say that I get very defensive very easily because of certain experiences when I was younger. That is a fact, but it is not an excuse. I take responsibility for what I wrote.

No matter how even-handed and calm I try to be, I have another (very angry) side that sometimes shows its ugly head. I am usually the peacemaker, the one family and friends go to for advice. But I can also be vile.

Having read the posts in this thread, I feel I had the right to say what I said, but I should not have posted so angrily and defensively. I was defending myself without even being attacked; how could I be attacked when I was the first poster in this thread?

In addition, I AM new here, and there are people who know a lot more about this stuff than I do.

Finally, I, unfortunately, can be as opinionated as those I combat.

WorkInProgress · Jun 28, 2005

I think that what Go For The Laugh is saying is not that BDSM people tend to look down on ticklephiles, but rather, that some do, and he finds it appalling that some do, because the commonality should be obvious.

But what's interesting to me--and I mean "interesting" as in enlightening--is that there are those BDSM aficionados, as has already been mentioned in this thread, who have more endurance for hard-core tortures than for tickling. At NEST in Philadelphia some weeks ago, I got into a very friendly conversation with a young woman whose name begins with an M, who is into the hard-core stuff, both giving and receiving. (She has both a "sub" and a "sir.") She does whipping, fire play, scratching, you name it--but not tickling. She was cringing and wincing as she watched people being tickled. She was enough of a regular at that club that she had full access even at a private party, and was there because she was fascinated to see what tickle-torture looked like, and she was a bit trepidatious that her "sir" might try some of it out on her later on. And she had scars on her arms from having been recently scratched by her "sir." We actually had a nice conversation; neither of us was going to sample the other's lifestyle, but we could certainly learn.

Thing is, the most useful friends are the ones who want to learn something from you. I'm a nudist, and while few if any of my friends are going to join me in it, there are plenty who are interested in learning about the scene from me. Point is, whatever scene your friends are in, gay, straight, BDSM, ticklephile, whatever, they'll have the most to offer if they ask you about the things you do, rather than think they already know it all.

Tenebrae · Jun 29, 2005

As said before, hypocrisy is in every community, even the smallest ones and it is a fact that you may also find it in BDSM. But I think that there is no relation between the fact that they ARE in BDSM and the fact that they look down to ticklers. Those disdainful people in cause are just intolerant.

BTW, I am into tickling AND into torture and I practice both on a nearly equal basis. I don't feel that there's any contradiction : all I see is just two exciting games I am fond of.

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 29, 2005

Tenebrae said:
BTW, I am into tickling AND into torture and I practice both on a nearly equal basis. I don't feel that there's any contraction : all I see is just two exciting games I am fond of.

I am new to all this and am still learning, but that makes perfect sense to me.

kcantankerous · Jun 29, 2005

what the hell does bdsm mean?

milagros317 · Jun 29, 2005

Bondage & Domination / Sadism & Masochism

kcantankerous · Jun 29, 2005

I think its funny how someone could be into shear torture but not into tickling. I think the BDSM overall could be a pretty scary thing. Like theres some of the tickle fans who like quick tickles and all of that. Would a BDSM fan want to get a quick slap of someone. Maybe it's different but man I think its too much for me.

LeeAllure · Jun 29, 2005

Couple of things...

I've been into both tickling and s/m for a long time and have met
both ticklers who think s/m'ers are icky, and s/m'ers who think
ticklers are ... well, usually too hard for them.

On the other hand, I've also had a fantastic number of slaves
and submissives who are ticklish (It's one of the first questions
I ask, and I don't allow it to be a limit with those who serve me)
and a decent number of tickling partners who found that they
enjoyed spanking or other forms of percussion (bastinado, anyone?)
than they expected.

In either case, I tend to associate, as I'm sure most of you do, too,
with those people who are into some of the same things I am, and
are tolerant of the things I am into which they are not, and they
can expect the same behaviour from me.

and BDSM is a conglomeration of :
Bondage & Discipline, Dominance & Submission, Sadism & Masochism

Oh. And one of my favourite things is tickling someone at an
s/m event. I like the outreach which invariably comes, as people
just can't seem to stop talking about it

Oddly enough, tickling is usually relegated to another space, as
the laughter prevents many people from getting to sub space,
or knocks them out of it, and can be distracting to the tops, as well.

Lee

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 29, 2005

knogz said:
Like theres some of the tickle fans who like quick tickles and all of that.

I am one of them--and that is all I have ever done. However, if I said I never had fantasies about long-term tickling, I'd be lying.

The more I think about it: Who am I to judge someone else's kink? (Milagros317's post on page one says a mouthful, and I am going to look for the book he recommended. Maybe my BDSM book was the wrong one to read!)

I am beghinning to realize how, on page one, I was trying to justify what I like (tickling) by distancing myself from BDSM. I would never want to practice most BDSM, but that is a personal choice I cannot force on anyone else.

However, even if I choose never to try torture ticking, if I so much as fantasize about it--and I do--then there is clearly something of BDSM in me.

If I then judge people into other aspects of BDSM, am I not also judging myself?

So glad I joined this board. Where else could I learn about this stuff and really think about it?

TickledToDeath · Jun 29, 2005

Point.

Some time ago. At least a few years or more. Like around 1999 ish. I was on line in a BD chat room and was having a similar discussion with some woman who was heavily into bdsm and really trashed tickling as "childs play" and "baby games" compared to tickling.
She sought me out in the chat room because of my on line reputation and my having advertised so to speak being into sadistic tickle torture.
She said that that was an oxymoron but being she was a lifestyle masochist she challenged me to proove her wrong my my case right.
To make a long story short............by the time I was done with her, she was a babbling screaming safewording begging for mercy and to be beaten instead of tickled mess of female humble pie!
Tickling had become from that point on a HARD limit for her.
She said she would rather be whipped and paddled and canned till she was bloody and raw!

Nuff said. :happyfloa

Tickler Bart · Jun 30, 2005

My Opinion . . .

Ok . . .
This is, of course, my OWN experiences & attiudes towards the 'general' BDSM Community.
I've been going to a couple of Fetish Clubs in New York City on & off since the mid 1980s.
For a LONG LONG time, whenever I had any kind of discussion about or mention the word 'tickle', I would get these looks from them like I was pathetic. I cannot even count how many Dommes & so-called 'slaves' would walk away from me when I suggest a tickle session.
They always gave me that, "Oh PLEASE. That's not a REAL fetish" look.
Until 1997. I met a new Domme at the old Hellfire Club in Lower Manhattan.
She let me massage her feet (I also have a MAJOR.. MAJOR foot fetish),
I asked her if I could tickle her feet. She said, "Sure. I love having my feet tickled." I was shocked but VERY pleased.
To make a long story even longer, we were seeing each other for a while.
As a matter of fact, she very much enjoyed tickling MY feet.
She turned me into a switch (Both 'Ler & 'Lee)
Now, she is a rare exception to the rule.
Whenever I visit NYC (I'll be in NYC the last week in July) I go to the Fetish Warehouse (Formerly Hellfire) & she ties & tickles the crap out of my bare soles. & I get to lick & tickle her soles too. <<<<----

HOWEVER . . . everyone else that I try to talk to about tickling just have no interest in it.
STILL. After all these years, these same folks that I've known for a long time have the same friggin' reaction towards tickling. (That's not a REAL fetish).
You're probably asking, "Why go there then?"
Well, in order to get what I want, I have to expose myself to the painful aspect of fetishism. Not my cup of java. Ok.. tea.
I always feel like an outsider because I don't enjoy the accepted fetishes (Spankings, whippings, canings, hot wax, etc), & I do not wish to participate in that aspect of the BDSM community.
To them (Not all, but enough to call them THEM) tickling is a minor little diversion that does not require any special attention or preparedness.
A couple of quick strokes of a sole, get a quick jump & giggle, then on to the more severe forms of the term 'torture'.
Tickling, in any sense of the word or activity, is not taken seriously as a part of REAL fetish activity or foreplay.
Do I hate them for this? Naaa. Does it bother me ? Hell YES it bothers me.
I want to be PART of the WHOLE BDSM Community, not a fragment broken off like a stale crumb of a cookie.
I think I've rambled on way too long.
Sorry 'bout that. . .
By the way, I'll STILL be going to the Fetish Warehouse for some foot &/or tickle fun.
Anyone care to join me? let me know. . . .

GoForTheLaugh · Jun 30, 2005

Midnight Mage said:
GoFor, that's why I like you.

If you'd like, I can either post or PM you a list of more "kink" friendly BDSM related resources, both books and websites. It would take me a while to compile a list, but let me know. Someone already mentioned the book The Loving Dominant, and that's a excellent place to start.

That's a really kind offer, and I thank you for it, Mage.

However, I know that I am not ready for that yet! After all, I used "BDSM" in the same sentence as "I" less than twenty-four hours ago. Still too new to me. Besides, I really may be into tickling but nothing else; I think so--but I just don't know. I will keep an open mind, though.

My greatest resource now is my best friend. He has no kinks whatsoever, but he has no problem with people who do. (I am not the first fetishist he has met--just the first tickling fetishist.)

Here's the irony. I, the one with the tickle fetish, tell him that I have the world's dumbest fetish. He, on the other hand, tells me that there is nothing wrong with what I like and actually finds it funny to discuss it with me.

Final word to all: Some of us are expressing pain over the way we as tickle fans have been put down. Maybe we are overreacting, but please take what we feel seriously. What I said in my first post really hurt on a deep level.

ColoradoGuy · Jun 30, 2005

The BDSM & Tickling

I can appreciate Tickler Bart's comments as well as others who posted in the room. I had been involved with the local bdsm community in my area and I agree that tickling is on the fringe if not simpling "excuse the pun" but laughed at. However, I got to know some of the folks and made some friends.
Most seem to respect my tickling fetish. I had met one woman <a sub> who was into tickling especially her feet..my favorite. So they are out there. Even met a female domme who was a serious sadist but loved being tickled and was willing to be tied and tickled. But over all I can relate to Bart experience though. If anything I have seen more female dommes tickle torture male subs, but again it was a brief thing. But I don't ever see the two communities coming together even though I feel that tickling with bondage belongs in the BDSM community only as a speciality group or a fringe group. But those who would argue it's not the same I would agree too. Even some of the local ticklers I know have visited BDSM play parties get bored easily as well as myself. We have ended up sitting in the lounge drinking pop and talked.
Just wanted to share my experience.
Peace

About BDSM hypocrisy and being hated as a tickle fan

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