(NO FLAMES PLEASE!) Still trying to understand M/M and sexual orientation.

NO FLAMES PLEASE. If you don't like the topic, don't discuss it. If you don't like gay people, put me on ignore. This topic is important to me, and there are many threads for the rest of you.

And yes, before I even start, let me make it clear that I know that most straight men are NOT into M/M. No question there. I have no problem with that, and indeed I write to a few straight guys from this board who are only into M/F and/or F/M. I myself am only into M/M.

Introduction over.

Since I joined this board three months ago, I have been called every name under the sun because I dared to do what everyone else on this board does: I spoke about my tickle interests. I really wish there were a gay tickling board somewhere, but what little I find does not have discussion the way this one does.

Since the infamous thread I started months ago--the one in which I explained why M/M can be straight (provided it is not sexual and that the people involved identify as heterosexual and are not sexually attracted to men)--no less than three men have asked me if I wanted to meet up. As much as I wish I could have and indeed do crave a first tickle buddy, I had to turn the three down: All three were heterosexual. This fact confuses me to no end.

Mind you, I have no problem with two straight guys who play together. Why shouldn't people do what they wish? Obviously, as a gay male I also have no problem with two gay guys who play together.

But mixing sexual orientations? Isn't that pushing it? I might be able to see a straight guy and a gay guy who are good friends and trust each other playing (big maybe there!), but two people of different sexual orientations who have only just met on a board? If a straight guy who likes M/M has no male tickle buddies, wouldn't it be better for him to seek a woman instead of a gay male?

M/M would be very sexual for me, yet it would not be sexual for the straight guy. If he is turned on, it would be the tickling itself that turns him on. I, on the other hand, know what else would turn me on. That, to me, is a recipe for disaster. I certainly don't want to get my teeth knocked out.

I wish there were other gay ticklephiles I could talk to about this. They, at least, would understand the struggle we have all gone through to live as gay people in a society that hates us. Would they also feel queasy when straight men put them in a tickling context? Would they also feel that playing with straight men was a slap in the face of gay liberation? I just don't know the answer, nor do I know how I feel, and since none of my gay friends is into tickling, I don't know who to ask. Even the ones who know about my fetish might not be able to give an informed answer.

I am a straight woman and I am going to try to answer this (I have an HRC bumpersticker, so I’m allowed )

I think that the reason a straight man might consider tickle play with a gay male is because the tickling and the desire to be desired outweigh the fact that it goes against their natural sexual tendancies. while very sexual to many of us, if we know that it is not going to BE sexual… then, for many of us, it puts a whole different slant on it.

how would you feel about tickle play with a straight woman? one who accepts that you are gay but wishes you weren’t because you’re such a ticklish little hotty? would it cause the same confusion or would you be able to put your own natural sexual tendancies aside and have fun with it?

Hmmm. I'm glad Ayla weighed in before I finished thinking about this. She gave me something more to think about. I like her question about how you would feel about tickle play with a straight woman. I'm also a straight female, for whatever that's worth, and think I would be open to play with anyone of any orientation, at least once, if circumstances were right.

I just went and read the infamous thread from three months ago and if that wasn't the most depressing display of intolerance I've ever seen, I don't know what is. Let's hope this doesn't head that way as well.

I'm kind of surprised, GFTL, that you're confused about straight guys being willing to be tickle partners with you. I think it was you who pointed out that for some people tickling isn't or doesn't have to be sexual. Does that mean you think it's possible for a straight guy to tickle a straight female and not find it sexual? If in fact you think that's possible, then I think it's also possible for a straight guy to tickle a gay male and not find it sexual. I think both scenarios are unlikely, but still quite possible.

And really, isn't sexuality more of a pendulum than two ends so far distant from each other? Don't all people fall in different places along that line?

You know, I've decided I don't think there's an answer to this. People just have so many facets to their psyches that I just don't think we're going to pin this one down.

Having said all that to no good end, let me also say this. I'm really surprised there isn't a decent discussion board for gay ticklephiles. My quick bit of web research didn't yield anything and I'm sure you've done way more than me. Have you tried to check in with Wayne Courtois on the subject? Is he accessible?

hmmm.. Most disatisfied with my attempt to weigh in on this

Oh well, let's sum it up by saying "it's all good, isn't it?"

Trust People to Manage Themselves

I'm bi and have had to learn the proper care and feeding of straight people from an early age, and I feel your concern. Yet your post had me asking:
so what's wrong about getting turned on by someone that you can't have? It's called flirting, and it is the most fun you can have for free without chocolate being involved! People do it all the time. If you like to tickle/be tickled by men and don't need sex with him, and a man agrees to ler/lee with you knowing that you are gay, why second guess him? Maybe he's straight and wants to tickle someone without worrying about being too rough. Maybe he has fond memories of tickling his best friend and wants to relive them. Maybe he's bicurious. Maybe. . . you should ask him what his reasons are?
You've couched your arguments in terms of not wanting to upset the man and 'get your teeth knocked out', but any willing, informed tickling partner can give their consent freely and meaningfully. It sounds as though something else about the situation may be upsetting, not to others but to you.

Go For The Laugh: Your first post-introduction sentence or so was a little ambiguous (at least to me). Have you been called names on this board (the Tickling Community) or by the Gay Community? Or both?

Whichever it has been, I'm sorry that has happened for you. I've written numerous quirky things here since joining and have been flamed very seldom. While I am not gay, I have found your postings here to be intelligent and thought-provoking. Your openness alone is a real contribution and adds a lot of grist to my mill. I'm glad there's not an exclusively gay tickle forum somewhere, because you're needed here. Thanks for posting.

Thank you for the thoughful replies. I will do my best to respond to this, um, ticklish inquisition.

Ayla ny said:

how would you feel about tickle play with a straight woman? one who accepts that you are gay but wishes you weren’t because you’re such a ticklish little hotty? would it cause the same confusion or would you be able to put your own natural sexual tendancies aside and have fun with it?

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That's a tough one to answer. Prior to my having joined this board three months ago, I had no sexual or kinky thoughts about women at all. I have close female friends (both straight and bisexual), and they know they can hold my hand or put their arms around me without worry, as I will never come on to them.

Now that I am on this board, I have begun to notice women's feet. One of my gay male friends caught me staring at a woman's bare feet propped up on a chair in Starbuck's, and I still have not heard the end of the jokes. At a show recently, I was staring at the female lead's bare middle and wondering if she was ticklish. "What the hell am I thinking?" flashed through my mind. Happily, though, a hot shirtless man in the next scene wiped her from my memory.

This is unsettling, as I lost friends I cared about by coming out. I had to leave a job I liked when (before I was even out) my boss kept asking why I had no girlfriend. I was thrown out of my church. I have been chased and nearly gay bashed, and I know what horrendous lives many in the gay community have been forced to lead for daring to be the gay people biology made them. Having feelings for women (even though they are within a fetish and not sexual) or playing with straight men (who can then return to lives of heterosexual privilege) really makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to be in the position of asking myself why I bothered to come out and made myself suffer so much if I can just hook up with non-gay people. (Please don't be offended by that statement. I know it is potentially divisive and insulting, but it is the conflict I honestly feel.) Again, this is why I wish I knew gay people with this fetish. Surely they must have at least encountered these feelings.

That being said, no, being tickled by women would not be horrible. Since I am (sadly) not ticklish, I would be delighted if anyone could indeed tickle me.

And no, I am no hottie. I am not ugly, and I do get dates (based largely on personality, I think), but I have to be honest by admitting that I am merely average-looking.

lk70 said:

I'm kind of surprised, GFTL, that you're confused about straight guys being willing to be tickle partners with you. I think it was you who pointed out that for some people tickling isn't or doesn't have to be sexual. Does that mean you think it's possible for a straight guy to tickle a straight female and not find it sexual? If in fact you think that's possible, then I think it's also possible for a straight guy to tickle a gay male and not find it sexual. I think both scenarios are unlikely, but still quite possible.

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I certainly agree that tickling is not always sexual and certainly not sexual for everyone. With me, though, unless it is short horseplay, it will definitely be sexual. Again, that is me, not everyone. For that reason, I cannot see play with a straight guy since it would not be fair to either of us.

My surprise, I guess, comes from the people in question. They read my posts and referred to them, but somehow they missed the part about what tickling means to me.

lk70 said:

Have you tried to check in with Wayne Courtois on the subject? Is he accessible?

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Never heard of him. Is he on this board?

king_kaboodle said:

Might I be so bold as to venture a guess? I would bet, in all truthfulness, that a 100% completely heterosexual male will probably not be so interested in getting involved in a tickle session with another male.

That being said, if a heterosexual male hops into such a situation with enthusiasm, perhaps he is not entirely as straight as he thought? (Im not saying he isnt straight, but I am saying perhaps he hasnt realized he might also have other tendencies).

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I can respect that. I get annoyed when people automatically label others gay or bi, using those words as put downs, because someone likes things others don't. I would say that if the tickling were non-sexual, the person is straight--and that holds true even if he has a terrific time. If it is sexual, then even I have to question the person's self-identification.

Since it is such a thorny issue--and since I have already become an e-mail sex therapist for a few straight men on this board who are scared by their attraction to M/M even though they have no attraction whatsoever to male bodies or male sex--I really don't want to be the one assuring straight men of their heterosexuality during play. If I engage in play, I want to enjoy it.

switchtickler said:

It sounds as though something else about the situation may be upsetting, not to others but to you.

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Definitely! See what I wrote to both Ayla ny and king_kaboodle. I am a thirtysomething who has been out of the closet since the early 90s. The boundaries I maintain with straight men and women, all of whom know I am gay, are very comfortable. One of my closest friends is a straight male I have known most of my life, and there were a few (as in seven or eight?) times in junior high school and the first years of high school when I tickled him into hysterics. I smile even as I write that today, as the memory is delicious. But would I suggest it today (even though I have seen him tickle his wife and young son)? Not a chance. We just don't talk about it (even though I am open about whom I am dating as long as the youngster is not nearby).

My straight guy friends are often physical with each other the way straight guys often are, but I never engage in that. If I, a gay male, touched them the way they touch each other, it would make them uncomfortable. I can think of three guys around whose shoulders I put my arm if they do the same to me first. Once in a blue moon I might slap one of them on the back. They, on the other hand, can slap each other's asses during sports. I will never do that. It's all about boundaries, and tickling has a clear boundary.

So, yes, I am not at all comfortable breaking that boundary.

Iwon'tgrowup said:

Go For The Laugh: Your first post-introduction sentence or so was a little ambiguous (at least to me). Have you been called names on this board (the Tickling Community) or by the Gay Community? Or both?

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On the board and in correspondence. I even forwarded a particularly absurd private message to Mimi. I know that the moderators cannot do anything about it, and I do not condemn them or this board. Still, it kills me that people who have an alternate sexuality (fetish) would condemn someone with an alternate sexuality (same-sex sexual identity).

Since you have not seen the infamous thread in question (I guess): http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58697

I suspect that the moderators cleaned it up heavily while it was still running, and I am grateful to them for that.

And let me also say that I am part of the problem, as I do state things too strongly and am not always as accepting and even-tempered as I try to be. I have never lost it on this board or called anyone anything, but I have come dangerously close.

Iwon'tgrowup said:

Your openness alone is a real contribution and adds a lot of grist to my mill. I'm glad there's not an exclusively gay tickle forum somewhere, because you're needed here. Thanks for posting.

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Thank you for the kind words. I don't think I am needed here, however. For all my angst about the trolls on this board, there are many open-minded people who are needed here--and the ones in this thread are an example.

Wayne Courtis - My Name is Rand

http://www.waynecourtois.com/

"Mapped out on a playing field of ticklish male flesh, My Name is Rand follows a young man on his search for the ultimate erotic adventure. Betrayed by his own skin into a helplessly eroticised state, he becomes a captive of The Compound, a bizarre torture camp where men and women practice extreme tickling. After several near-death experiences he stumbles across a hiding place where several desperate men plot escape whle taking physical solace in each other. Sweatily detailed in its depiction of men driven over the edge, this novel is epic, funny and very sexy."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-0343771-6914354

Here is a bit of information that may help:

Sexual orientation and Dominance orientation don't always match.

Tickling falls into the 'control group' of fetishes. (It also falls into some other areas, the 'gentle ticklers' fall into the 'physical stimulation' group) But for a majority of people in the community the ability to exert a form of control over the lee lies in the center of thier arousal in some form or another when it comes to tickling.

The fun part is that Dominace can be gender unspecific. So a person with a clear sexual orientation can find themselves with a sexually charged fetish that is not gender locked. Hilarity of course ensues as they try to deal with the cognative dissidance.

It can be difficult to deal with as you have discovered regarding your comments about the play and such.

Be well,
Myriads

So much good stuff already shared here. For some of us, tickling can be not necessarily sexual but just fun playtime. If the straight guys who contacted you like being tickled and don't want to take things further, but you find it a turn on, what harm done hon? Taking care of things, ahem, on your own, after the fact isn't the weirdest thing on the planet and you both get your needs met...why not go for it, at least until you can meet a nice gay guy who shares the fetish?

Your posts are always so well written and thoughtful. I know I, for one, don't see much of it coming from newbies lately. I hope you stick around and find what you're looking for...
XOXO

Thank you, IK70! Wow!

That is very helpful, Myriads. Thank you, too. I am definitely a gentle tickler, and one of the reasons being on the board is sometimes difficult is that I occasionally wonder if I am talking about the same fetish as everyone else. All my tickle dreams seem more romantic than torturous--although I admit that some of what I have read here and on Jack's Rack has indeed piqued my non-romantic interests. Did I just actually admit that?

Steph, steph, steph... If there was ever a reason to want to be straight, you're it! Again and again you say such sweet things. I do want to stick around here, although I do not have the time to post as much as I would like. I have many years invested in a mainstream board where some of the people have become real-life friends, and that is where I spend the bulk of my Internet time. Other than that, real life calls.

But this place is really, really great, though. I say that despite my ridiculous, all-too-common pity me posts here. Sometimes even I need to tell myself to stop whining and get a grip!

Let me try to figure all this out. It's just so much information, and I am becoming less and less sure of what I think I know.

I just went and read the infamous thread from three months ago and if that wasn't the most depressing display of intolerance I've ever seen, I don't know what is. Let's hope this doesn't head that way as well. Quote from lk70


GoForTheLaugh asked for folks not to flame one another, so you went ahead anyway and took a cheapshot at anyone who disagreed with his thread from three months ago. Anyhow, my advice to GoForTheLaugh is to not take this too seriously, its just tickling. Your belief is that tickling is not sexual, so now you just need to have fun with it and don`t worry about how others judge you.

I very, very much appreciate the kind words, unclebill. You are one cool guy.

I don't think IK70 meant any harm; rather, I think the point was to show me support. Although I am secure in most things, I still feel a bit uncomfortable about this fetish, and the flames I have received have only made me want to crawl further into a tickling closet.

Again, although I have been out, proud, and sexually active as a gay male for more than ten years, it took ten years (as a virgin, no less) before that for me to accept it. There is no way I can fully accept my fetish overnight, and it helps me a lot to know that others also felt the flames were unwarranted.

I do overreact and I can be too sensitive; I also caused some of my own grief with the unfortunate title of the other thread. I admit all that.

But please: No posting war between you and IK70. The last thing I want is to be the cause of controversy and strife on a board where as many welcome me and make me smile as flame me.

Well, I haven't read but a few of the replies to this post (it's after 4 am cut me some slack LOL) so forgive me if i repeat anything.

I almost didn't read this thread at all because I'm not into M/M, but I'm glad I did because it really got me thinking. I'm a straight female, and unless my ler is a girl I've known for a loooooong time (I can think of 3 that I'd be comfortable with) I can't stand the idea of being tickled by another girl. I think that sometimes you can't remove the sexuality or at least flirty playfulness of tickling. I have no problem being tickled by guys I have no sexual feelings for, because I'm a huge flirt, so I just see it as part of that Being tickled by a lesbian for me would be about as uncomfortable as anything I can imagine. I've been *into* tickling for as long as I can remember, we're talking kindergarten guys, but I'm still just uncovering some aspects of it, such as the sexuality. I have no problems with gay men or women as people. I don't feel uncomfortable in any social or private situation with any people of any orientation (obviously provided that they know and respect that I'm straight), but for some reason being tickled by any girl, let alone a girl who has sexual feelings for other girls, is just more than I can handle. Watching F/F is fine, no problem there, just participating in it makes me very uncomfortable.

Geez somebody should have stopped me long ago LOL Sorry for the late-night rambling. Hopefully I got some kind of point across, even if it's only that you aren't the only one who doesn't understand this mixing sexual orientation thing

-Liz

perhaps the mods could make a section for gay members. i wouldnt have a problem with that. then they could have their own section to go to town in.

dtrell said:

perhaps the mods could make a section for gay members. i wouldnt have a problem with that. then they could have their own section to go to town in.

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I trust that would be gay males only. After all I don't want my fantasies ruined by ghettoising gay females !

LOL

A section for gay males might be nice, but since there are only two or three of us on the board what would be the point?

In addition, while many women are not interested in M/M, some are as turned on by it as a number of men are turned on by F/F. I, for one, would never withold M/M information from a woman who was interested. (Besides, in the non-tickling world many of the best "gay male" writers are actually straight and bisexual women! That may hold true for the tickling world as well. I have no idea.)

Then there are the minority of straight men into M/M, and it is grossly unfair to call them gay or force them into a gay section. From what I have seen on line (off this site), a number of gay male tickle fans are prejudiced against them, calling them closet cases. You'd think my fellow gays would know what prejudice is and have more open minds! As I keep saying, I have seen males I know to be straight tickle each other briefly in horseplay. I also believe the straight men on this board when they say that the tickle play in which they engage with other men is non-sexual.

I would, therefore, argue for the creation of a M/M section where everyone is welcome regardless of sex or sexual orientation. Since there is so much mockery of the practice in the tickle world at large, I believe M/M deserves special treatment here.

When I first joined, I posted against ghettoization; given the remarks made about me I am now all for it. There are moments of weakness, I admit, when I wish I had lied and claimed to be a straight women on this board instead of being who I am. That will never happen, however, as pride runs deep.

A F/F section would also be nice, but I do not think there is as much prejudice against the practice as there is against M/M--based, at least, on what I have read on this board. I wonder, though, if there is a place in the tickle universe where women who do not want men peeping over their shoulders can post? I have no idea. I am glad to know that people on this board are hosting a women-only gathering, though. Good for them!

Hee hee! You cutiepie!
Listen babe, give me a minute and then go check your PM box. I have an idea...
XOXO

GoForTheLaugh said:

Steph, steph, steph... If there was ever a reason to want to be straight, you're it! Again and again you say such sweet things.

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None of the TMF staff have any interest in having gay people in their own section for some reason. This is a place for all people who enjoy tickling. If anything I'd like to segregate a certain few heterosexual cranks away from the rest of the group.

Go For The Laugh, this thread you posted is meaningful to me. I thank you for being so straight forward in discussing your views. These are my thoughts.
As long as you are happy and comfortable with yourself, and your sexuality, that is what is most important. Who cares what anyone else thinks? If certain people have a problem that you are a gay guy, that is their problem to deal with.
Iam a straight guy, and Iam into tickling and being tickled by only females. This being said, Iam open minded and kind enough to realize that another's sexuality isnt my area to judge. As many who know me are aware, and people who see my signature or icon in the chat know, Iam into seeing girls bare foot on ladders. I cannot explain exactly why I like this alternative interest. Perhaps it is that I like to see bare female feet up high, or maybe for some other reason that I cant put my finger on. Some people I have met on this board, both new and old, have been completely cool and open minded when I discuss my interest of seeing girls barefoot on ladders, while some other jerks have bashed me and been like: "What a freak, why the F'ck do you like girls barefoot on ladders? You're so weird!" This behavior pisses me off to no end. Am I any more a freak for liking barefoot girls on ladders, then say, someone on the board who is into tickle torture would be to a person not into tickling? I have my particular area that I enjoy, and whille I may not know why I enjoy it, I'll be damned if I'm going to change what I enjoy because of some stupid idiotic trolls or troublemakers calling me a freak because of it. If they dont like me, dont talk to me, and put me on ignore, but they arent going to change me.
I didnt mean to go off on a tangient, but I have a point to my message. You seem like a good guy. You are secure in your decisions and choices about life, and your sexuality. That to me is supremely important. Iam sure you will find a gay male who shares similar sexuality viewpoints and interests as you. I hope you find happiness with whoever that person is. I know this is very difficult to do, but believe me,It can be done. During my 3 years here, it has been necessary for me to embrace some very cool and open minded people, while placing others on ignore, due to some troublemaking small minded jerks who I've run into. The philsophy in a board such as this should really be the following. Embrace and befriend those who are open minded, and understanding of your viewpoints, and sexuality, and ignore those who degrade or flame you. It is unrealistic to expect us all to like each other in a community the size of this. However, you can and will certainly find some cool people to befriend on this board. I have in spite of the closed minded people I've run into.
Good Luck to you. I like how you have stood up strong for your viewpoints. It is inspirational. While we may have differing viewpoints sexually, I, for one, have respect for you having the courage of your convictions to be secure in yourself to remain stoic in spite of the abuse. That to me shows a strong sense of character. I believe that your experience should send a message to not only this whole board, but also to the greater world. We are all different, we have different viewpoints, different sexual orientations, and different expectations. I cant guarantee that you will find your love match on this board, then again, neither is there any guarantee of any other person, gay or straight finding their love match here as well. You are who you are, and if you are happy with yourself, then that's all that matters. As for the bashing trolls, the best advice is to ignore them, and enjoy the site for what you can get out of it. As someone who has endured the bashing of trolls in other ways, I have had to do this, and Iam only offering the same advice to you as I take for myself. I hope all turns out well for you. To me, you are a much better person for being kind and secure in yourself, then any of the idiots who message you and bash you. Those are insecure jerks, who have to let out their agressions to make themselves feel better by attempting to hurt others. Those type of people, to me, are sorry excuses for humanity. End of Rant.

Mitch

Just in case my anglophile humour has failed to translate across the Atlantic on the forum for the second time this week, I was of course being ironic.

My point being that as hetero guys we can't see women tickling each other, not caring whether that is gay or not, but then outlaw M/M Tickling as unacceptably gayish. After all surely the point about being a ticklephile, is that we are immediately open to narrow minded predjudice from the Vanilla world, without coming up with our own inhouse.

To be fair to Dtrell however, I do understand where he is coming from. Thus as a male lee myself, I like seeing clips of Females Tickling Males, yet have to have the sound turned down, because I can't stand listening to men laugh (sorry) !

Yet there is no easy answer here. If there was an exclusive gay male forum within the TMF, would that mean that its members couldn't take part in the rest of the forum, without someone telling them they shouldn't be in that section. On the other hand it could be something that could really take off, where members could talk and post in an open and frank manner, without being jumped on by others saying that "this sort of thing is disgusting, as I am strictly M/F, has no place here etc. etc."

thanks for the support toneus. my point was that goforthelaugh said that he wasnt sure where he could post and feel comfortable, and im saying that if there was a section dedicated to gay ticklers, any new gay tickler that came on the forum would immmediately be able to go there and feel comfortable with like minded people right away. thats all. ive never said anything bad about this guy, the only thing i ever questioned is that he came right out of the box and said "m/m tickling isnt gay"...i think it just got him off on the wrong foot. i have no problem with he himself or him posting anywhere he wants on here.

I hope I won't offend anyone by saying this, but I have LOVED this thread. It is great that GFTL felt free to post this, and equally great that we are so open about rolling this topic over, studying it, offering different perspectives and continuing to share. I really enjoy participating in this Forum. Cranks need not apply. (Great post by Mitch, by the way).

I would like to say publically that I respect dtrell very much for his post on this page. While I have not always liked what dtrell has said, he has only ever said things to me in public (on the board) and has never resorted to cowardly attacks by private message. (Can't say that about everyone.) I respect him for being man enough to keep it on the board instead of using a private message to hide.

I accept that I may have gotten off on the wrong foot on this board, and that, as a newbie, I could have come off as someone trying to stir up trouble.

dtrell: I offer you a peace pipe and hope the Rockettes fly from here in New York to your hometown and line up to be tickled by you. (Now there's an image!)


By the way: I have not been flamed at all in about three weeks--ever since I went public with what was going on. Don't know if the moderators are responsible or if my public declaration simply scared the trolls off, but I am grateful.


Skipadeedoodah: I forgot to mention this before, but I thought your post was insightful and honest. As I have said many times, no one should ever do anything that he or she does not feel comfortable with. I have a number of straight male friends who support me as a gay male, but that hardly means I would assume that they would engage in tickle games with me.

Steph: Thanks! I'll get back to you on that PM, K?

MTP Jeff: I may gripe about a few things here and there, but it is never because of the way the administration and moderators run the show. If I did not like this board very much, I would not still be here.

Mitchell: I have enjoyed many of your posts, and, yes, I know who you are every time I see the adorable picture in your signature. I can understand what you say about women on ladders, as perspective can make a person even sexier. Looking up at a beautiful woman almost deifies her, as you can imagine her hovering above you, perhaps even being ready to sweep you up.

While I have never included ladders in my tickling fantasies, there is sometimes some type of water (lapping ocean waves, a pool, rain) involved. Don't ask me to explain it, as I cannot. But wetness adds to my fantasy the way a ladder adds to yours.

Wow! I wish I were always as brave and resilient as I come off in your post! Thanks, man!

toneus79: Good points. If there were a M/M forum for all sexual orientations or a gay forum, I, for one, would not want to see anyone denied the right to participate. I myself sometimes post about M/F when I see a comment hook in other threads. It is not what I am into, but I have seen a lot of it in my crowd and am happy to share with those who enjoy my tales. In addition, I enjoyed speculating about M/F in the Harry Potter threads.

Iwon'tgrowup: And GFTL is feeling very good about not being flamed in this thread. Thank you for the kind words.