9/11- A blessing in disguise? (At least temporarily)

[giantfan121262]

You might think I am crazy for posting this but in spite of these deplorable acts, there is a good thing that came out of this (at least for a few days). I saw a sense of unison and togetherness in this country like I have never seen before. Everybody was united and on the same page. You heard about others helping the less fortunate, wheter it would be moniterily, giving food, or opening their doors. Racial tension seemed to be nonexistant. you didn't hear racial slurs or didn't see segregation. what I saw, at least for a few days, was that America literally stood as one nation under God.

I just wish that it lasted longer than it did.

 

[The Pianist]

Unfortunately I'd like to think it did have a good effect... the unfortunate reality is that even though it might've eased some racial tension for a time, its ultimately increased it. Saw on the news today that a school in France has now banned muslim girls from wearing headscarfs in school. Thats just the latest in the loss of freedom... the world hasn't gotten better, we've just shifted our focused of racisism and segregation from Aboriginies, Black people, Asians, 'Wogs' to muslims.

 

[MrMacphisto]

While it is true that 9/11 created a sense of unity in this country for a short while, I think the deaths and the government's ability to justify any actions in the name of fighting terrorism far outweighed the good repercussions of that event. If anything, you could say the terrorists won that battle, because they successfully scared the shit out of us, and through foolish fear, they tricked our Congress into passing the Patriot Act.

 

[Red Jester]

Its nice to say that we call came together to "pull through" the tragedy. but honestly, what was there to get through? The towers were gone and the dead were dead. It was a tragedy to be sure but the damage was fully done. We didn't unite for love of one another. We united out of hatred for those that attacked us.

It was so simple, Afganistan hurt us, so now we hurt them. Nobody cared that we killed more innocent people over there than died in New York that day. We didn't care because they hurt our precious pride. Then the US invaded Iraq, and one by one, people started snapping out of it.

People say "if you do this the terrorist win!" or "if you pass this law its just what the terrorist want!" But what they did was the equivelent of pushing a guy in the hallway to start a fight. And they've already won. We tore our way through the middle east cutting down 20 civilians for every one terrorist and effectively made every country in the world look down on us. The damage is mostly done by now and its our fault as the American public for allowing the government to divert our rage so easily.

So no, 9/11 wasn't a good thing. If it never happened we wouldn't have invaded Afganistan and (almost definately) not Iraq. And if we did, Bush wouldn't be President right now. And we'd be on better terms with the rest of the world.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Its nice to say that we call came together to "pull through" the tragedy. but honestly, what was there to get through? The towers were gone and the dead were dead. It was a tragedy to be sure but the damage was fully done. We didn't unite for love of one another. We united out of hatred for those that attacked us.

It was so simple, Afganistan hurt us, so now we hurt them. Nobody cared that we killed more innocent people over there than died in New York that day. We didn't care because they hurt our precious pride. Then the US invaded Iraq, and one by one, people started snapping out of it.

People say "if you do this the terrorist win!" or "if you pass this law its just what the terrorist want!" But what they did was the equivelent of pushing a guy in the hallway to start a fight. And they've already won. We tore our way through the middle east cutting down 20 civilians for every one terrorist and effectively made every country in the world look down on us. The damage is mostly done by now and its our fault as the American public for allowing the government to divert our rage so easily.

So no, 9/11 wasn't a good thing. If it never happened we wouldn't have invaded Afganistan and (almost definately) not Iraq. And if we did, Bush wouldn't be President right now. And we'd be on better terms with the rest of the world.

I agree with you completely. However, I do believe the war with Afghanistan was necessary after 9/11. Iraq wasn't, but that's another story....

 

[tyf69]

Excuse me Jester but I think you are "fucked". America didn't come together out of hatred but out of loyality. My mom used to tell me stories about WWII. ( that's World War II) for someone like you. I doubt you'd remember it. She told me of how the goverment put sanctions on everything, like gas and food. Rent was another thing. The nation came together as one. That's the one good thing about America. It's always been able to come together as a nation. That's what makes us the greatest nation in the world.
Back in the 50's, when I lived overseas in an Arab country, I was stolen from by the locals because it's their desire to "do unto an infidel" when you can. So don't let your little heart bleed when you think we're the cause of all this mess with the Islamic types. I think the good knights of King Arthurs court started it when they decided to lay a little christianity on the "camel jockeys"
500 years ago. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
But what really freaks me out is that Iraq is the berth on "modern man", or so they say. The King James version of the bible talks of the cities in and around the Islamic region. Imigine that. Without those fair Knights, we'd be bowing to the east every afternoon, and smelling of body odor.

 

[DEV]

Excuse me Jester but I think you are "fucked". America didn't come together out of hatred but out of loyality. My mom used to tell me stories about WWII. ( that's World War II) for someone like you. I doubt you'd remember it. She told me of how the goverment put sanctions on everything, like gas and food. Rent was another thing. The nation came together as one. That's the one good thing about America. It's always been able to come together as a nation. That's what makes us the greatest nation in the world.
Back in the 50's, when I lived overseas in an Arab country, I was stolen from by the locals because it's their desire to "do unto an infidel" when you can. So don't let your little heart bleed when you think we're the cause of all this mess with the Islamic types. I think the good knights of King Arthurs court started it when they decided to lay a little christianity on the "camel jockeys"
500 years ago. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
But what really freaks me out is that Iraq is the berth on "modern man", or so they say. The King James version of the bible talks of the cities in and around the Islamic region. Imigine that. Without those fair Knights, we'd be bowing to the east every afternoon, and smelling of body odor.

There's a fair few things wrong with your post there:

1: During World War 2, America placed Asian citizens under arrest to avoid possible espionage.
2: The Crusades started over 900 (possibly a 1000) years ago and it wasn't King Arthur who fought it, believe me.
3: Those knights were in fact part of an invasion force, not a defensive force that attacked the Holy Land.

Just clearing up a few things for you.

 

[suprticklishgrl]

i've been singing this song to myself lately. i think its wonderful, esp when lots of people sing it together


from the lakes of minnesota
to the hills of tennessee
across the plains of texas
from sea to shining sea
from detroit down to houston
and new york to L.A.
there's pride in every american heart
and it's time we stand and say

that i'm proud to be an american
where at least i know i'm free
and i won't forget the ones who died
who gave that right to me
and i'll gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today
cuz there ain't no doubt i love this land
God bless the U.S.A.


i didn't include the 1st verse, but i like the line "cuz the flag still stands for freedom, and they can't take that away." yes, everyone has their faults, we all make stupid mistakes, and the world is not a perfect place. but the ideals that this country stands for is what held us together throughout all the wars, during the tragedy 4 years ago, and still does today. on a forum like this, can we not fight about it?

 

[Red Jester]

Excuse me Jester but I think you are "fucked". America didn't come together out of hatred but out of loyality. My mom used to tell me stories about WWII. ( that's World War II) for someone like you. I doubt you'd remember it. She told me of how the goverment put sanctions on everything, like gas and food. Rent was another thing. The nation came together as one. That's the one good thing about America. It's always been able to come together as a nation. That's what makes us the greatest nation in the world.
Back in the 50's, when I lived overseas in an Arab country, I was stolen from by the locals because it's their desire to "do unto an infidel" when you can. So don't let your little heart bleed when you think we're the cause of all this mess with the Islamic types. I think the good knights of King Arthurs court started it when they decided to lay a little christianity on the "camel jockeys"
500 years ago. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
But what really freaks me out is that Iraq is the berth on "modern man", or so they say. The King James version of the bible talks of the cities in and around the Islamic region. Imigine that. Without those fair Knights, we'd be bowing to the east every afternoon, and smelling of body odor.

For someone thirty years older than me, you're very good at looking like you have no idea what you're talking about. King Arthur led the Crusades? And I suppose the Trix rabbit led the invasion Poland in WWII (I know, its amazing I know the abreviation even though I don't support the war on Iraq.) And of course the bible mentions "Islamic cities," most of the damn bible takes place over there. Where did you think all of it happened, California? Where white Jesus was crucified by Indians and traveled overseas to slaughter all the "camel jockeys."

The only one of my beliefs you've proved wrong with that post is that age begets wisdom.

 

[RobAce]

suprticklishgrl thank you.

I have been recently thinking about no longer posting on items such as this because of the extreme hated some people have (on both sides of the political spectrum) that serves no purpose and blinds them from some truths and the lessons history have taught us. I have enough problems on my own and I dont need anyone elses hate anywhere near me. But reading what you wrote gives me hope....a lot of hope and almost energizes me. I see rant after rant after rant, and it makes me sick.
Im usually the "level headed" one who people can disagree with but in all they think at least I use my mind to make my stances on things and I use facts to back them up. But I almost got to a point where I was about to bring the proverbal hammer and wake up a few people. But after reading your post I will again return to the "level headed" American I always have been and always will. I wont respond to any thread inspired by hate or extreme emotion, I wont respond to personal attacks, and I wont make any personal attacks. I will choose to be in the middle, seeing both sides and realizing that maybe the middle is actually the best place to be.
Thank you again for your post and well thought out words.

 

[BigJim]

And to add the re-asignment of the date of the Arthurian period (around 600 A.D.) I shouyld also add that he was mythical, unlike the leaders of the Crusades. Mind you, I think it's quite possible that Dubya and Tony Blair don't really exist either. 😀

 

[Cosmo_ac]

9/11 a blessing...Well, it could have been i suppose. 9/11 not only caused Americans to band together, but the world together. However, because of selfserving and opertunistic people, that unity has not only been broken, the gap has become bigger then ever, save world war periods and the cold war.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Hold on Jim. I thought Arthur was real. Just the whole "sword and the stone, Lady in the lake" parts were made up.

 

[BigJim]

Hold on Jim. I thought Arthur was real. Just the whole "sword and the stone, Lady in the lake" parts were made up.

There's never been any direct evidence of his existence found. Only legends and hearsay. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence though that suggests it's just an angliscised version of French legends William the Conqueror bought with him after 1066.

My personal opinion is that it's just another spin on the whole "hero sits at the centre of the circle of 12 - working class dude makes good" story that includes Robin Hood, Jesus Christ and all the other list of forty-odd that I mentioned in that big religious history thread.

 

[Red Jester]

Hold on Jim. I thought Arthur was real. Just the whole "sword and the stone, Lady in the lake" parts were made up.

The biggest peice of evidence that ever suggested he existed was the story.. Recently they found a stone from around 600 BC with a single sentence carved in it. One of the words on it was Arthur which was the single piece of "archeological" evidence that the movie Arthur was based on. Most historians don't believe he existed.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Excuse me Jester but I think you are "fucked". America didn't come together out of hatred but out of loyality. My mom used to tell me stories about WWII. ( that's World War II) for someone like you. I doubt you'd remember it. She told me of how the goverment put sanctions on everything, like gas and food. Rent was another thing. The nation came together as one. That's the one good thing about America. It's always been able to come together as a nation. That's what makes us the greatest nation in the world.

Could we please cut the crap about the "greatest nation in the world?" Seriously folks, how do you think our international members feel when they continually read this from American posters? Do you enjoy giving the impression that all Americans are egocentric? I sure don't... You don't see our British members going on about "the U.K. is the greatest nation in the world"... Well, except for Red Indian anyway... 😛

Back in the 50's, when I lived overseas in an Arab country, I was stolen from by the locals because it's their desire to "do unto an infidel" when you can. So don't let your little heart bleed when you think we're the cause of all this mess with the Islamic types. I think the good knights of King Arthurs court started it when they decided to lay a little christianity on the "camel jockeys" 500 years ago. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. But what really freaks me out is that Iraq is the berth on "modern man", or so they say. The King James version of the bible talks of the cities in and around the Islamic region. Imigine that. Without those fair Knights, we'd be bowing to the east every afternoon, and smelling of body odor.

Yeah.. I'm sure Christ would've approved of the Crusades, being a pacifist and all... I hope you realize something, tyf69: you're no better than the Arab thieves you hate, if you choose to let their acts become an excuse for you to hate all Arabs. You're making the same error in judgment that the terrorists make as well.

 

[Red Jester]

Don't weigh down his mind with logic. It breaks the illusion.

 

[giantfan121262]

I guess I started a little bit of a debate. It wasn't my intention of starting this thread, but everyone must feel free to express their views, so be it.

Looking at the long term effect, it's true that the gap had broadened over time. The unison also came at a tremendous price. It started not because of the love shared but the hate towards all the Arab countries. As Pianist pointed out, it was all the Americans shifting their focus of hatred towards somebody that cane into their back yard and destroyed it.

I do believe the war is necessary on Iraq because Sadaam Huesin had a hand in the 9/11 attacks. He helped financed the venture. It is my view that these countires were viewing us as somebody who wouldn't retaliate. It was time to make a statement that we wern't going to take this shit again. It just seems like all these countries were causing the problems over the last twenty years. The 52 American hostages, Desert Storm, Omar Kadafi's act of terrorism, and so on. It was time to take him out. I think though this war has gone on too long. I think we need to bring some troops back to help with the destruction caused by Hurricane Kartina. We need to start taking care of our own people.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

I do believe the war is necessary on Iraq because Sadaam Huesin had a hand in the 9/11 attacks. He helped financed the venture.

Um, i don't want to get this post too of topic, but i think i should respond to this. There has been no evidence of Saddam playing any part in 9/11. He's no more responsible for 9/11 then the british are.

 

[BigJim]

Probably less so.


Aww shit, I've been writing too many conspiracy threads again...

 

[MrMacphisto]

I think we need to bring some troops back to help with the destruction caused by Hurricane Kartina. We need to start taking care of our own people.

I agree that we need to bring some more of our National Guard back into America to help with the Katrina aftermath.

 

[The Pianist]

Just to go over a few things

As Pianist pointed out, it was all the Americans shifting their focus of hatred towards somebody that cane into their back yard and destroyed it.

Well, I wasn't being that specific, yes America certainly has played a rather significant part in deamonising Muslims... but its happening here in Australia, France, England and many other places I'm sure.

And I really don't want to shed more bad light on some nice thoughts, but I do have some problems with the comments made by robace252 and suprticklishgrl.

I'm not entirely sure what made robace think this thread was about hatred... aside from the banter between tyr69 and some others, this is mostly about an opposition to hatred. In my post, for example, I was expressing my dissapointment in how the events of this world have been going.

About the song... unfortunately its one of those songs that just make me cringe for many particular reasons. Lines such as "cuz the flag still stands for freedom, and they can't take that away" immeadiately say to me that you've missed what I was trying to talk about. David Hicks after being held in prison (Guatemalo Bay) for almost 4 years WITHOUT charge has only recently been given a date for his trial (in other circumstances he would've had to have been released or charged within 24 hours), girls in France not being able to wear their religious clothing because they are Muslims, illegal immigrants here in Australia being put in detention centres for years... these things are examples of how your freedom is being taken away from you... whats more, its the type of violation that you're supposed to be fighting against.

And the line in bold... "God bless the U.S.A." is one I always want to be careful of. Sure there is nothing wrong with it, but historically, sentiments like that have been severly missused. For clarification, I am a christian and I do believe that god loves and cares for every American citizen including George Bush. But it does not stop at that... gods love extends to every person in the world, including Iraqi's, the Muslim extreemists, Saddam Hausain and even Bin Ladin himself. The reason I don't like lines like "God bless America" is that it seems to be accompianied with the beliefe that god is on 'Our' side. That concept has justified many wars including the crusades, Nazi Germany, the Terrorist on September 11 and the War on Iraq being the most recent... all of which believed that what they were doing was gods will in some form or another.

My pastor summed up this last point pretty well in:
God is never on our side... instead, we should aim be on Gods side.

And also Leunig (an Australian Cartoonist) did an excellent description of 'How Wars Start.' He drew two opposing army generals, facing each other screaming "God is on OUR side" "No, God is on OUR side"

And one quote about being in the middle of arguments... I don't remember where in particular it came from, but I heard it while researching the background to Cabarete and the Nazi Germany side of it.

"Evil can only succeed in this world if good people do nothing."

 

[BigJim]

Very "Icke-ist" cobber. 😉

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

i've been singing this song to myself lately. i think its wonderful, esp when lots of people sing it together


from the lakes of minnesota
to the hills of tennessee
across the plains of texas
from sea to shining sea
from detroit down to houston
and new york to L.A.
there's pride in every american heart
and it's time we stand and say

that i'm proud to be an american
where at least i know i'm free
and i won't forget the ones who died
who gave that right to me
and i'll gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today
cuz there ain't no doubt i love this land
God bless the U.S.A.


i didn't include the 1st verse, but i like the line "cuz the flag still stands for freedom, and they can't take that away." yes, everyone has their faults, we all make stupid mistakes, and the world is not a perfect place. but the ideals that this country stands for is what held us together throughout all the wars, during the tragedy 4 years ago, and still does today. on a forum like this, can we not fight about it?

God Bless you Suprticklishgrl!!! You know guys I lived in New York when this horrible act took place. It is amazing when you are up close what you end up learning.

 

[Haltickling]

...girls in France not being able to wear their religious clothing because they are Muslims...

I agree with almost everything you mention, Pianist, except one: France has banned religious symbols (e.g. headscarves) from their public schools, not in general. This is in line with their policy of strict separation between church and state. FYI: Turkey, a nation with 97% muslims, has the same law. And: Female headgear is NOT part of the Qur'an, it's part of Arab tradition.