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A Clockwork Orange: is this a good movie or a bad movie

Joined
Apr 17, 2001
Messages
10,153
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38
I don't know what to make of this film. In some ways I really like it, and in other ways it's just a stupid movies. I did find it fitting that the lead character ends up hating one of the few things he actually loved, the 9th Symphony.
 
Great concepts... very outdated execution.

I'm sure this was a good movie when it came out, but by today's standards, it just looks very 70s.

If there's any popular movie that desperately needs a remake, this would be the one. Kubrick is usually very good, but this was definitely one of his weaker films.
 
I remember reading a Kubrick interview right after the movie came out and he said the movie had no deep meaning, no statement was intended. The intention of the movie was pure violent entertainment.
 
I remember reading a Kubrick interview right after the movie came out and he said the movie had no deep meaning, no statement was intended. The intention of the movie was pure violent entertainment.

Well according to some documentaries on the bonus disc he sure put allot of work into it for a film that had no deep meaning.
 
Great concepts... very outdated execution.

I'm sure this was a good movie when it came out, but by today's standards, it just looks very 70s.

If there's any popular movie that desperately needs a remake, this would be the one. Kubrick is usually very good, but this was definitely one of his weaker films.

After seeing what is on the bonus disc, I think I understand the movie a bit better. I know where you are coming from when you say it looks dated, but the reason for that is because the book is/was suposed to take place in the future. Kubrik didn't want to go to far with that so he tried to keep the look of them film with in reason. In other words he didn't want it to look like the Jetsons or Star Trek.
 
It's a GREAT movie.

The first time I saw it I enjoyed the cinematography (Kubrick is a master) and a few scenes, but clearly didn't 'get it'.

After watching it again years later I was able to comprehend more of the themes and subtext presented in the film and have come to thoroughly enjoy the film.

I had the same revelation when re-watching Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey as well.

Such rich films often need re-watching to grasp the deeper concepts and ideas it conveys.

However, there are often movies like A Clockwork Orange which remain polarizing to this day.

It's not for everyone, so if it's not your bag it's no big deal.
 
Own the movie and have read the book. Still love the movie, though i admit, i would enjoy a remake, and hopefully, they'll wrap it up a little better then they did in the movie, which i thought was it's weakest point.
 
Great concepts... very outdated execution.

I'm sure this was a good movie when it came out, but by today's standards, it just looks very 70s.
Well, yeah. And Casablanca looks very 40s.

Cinematically, I'd say it's very good. It's not quite a classic - though within its cyberpunk/dystopian genre, it might be. But it's a good movie qua movie.

It's not a good movie for every viewer though. A viewer who has an aversion to violence or who wants a hero and a happy ending won't like it.
 
Well, yeah. And Casablanca looks very 40s.

Casablanca has a timeless quality about it that is lacking in a movie like this.

The whole presentation of Clockwork Orange seems to heavily reflect the excesses of the 70s. Casablanca presents themes that are more universal in nature and less tied to a specific era.

Cinematically, I'd say it's very good. It's not quite a classic - though within its cyberpunk/dystopian genre, it might be. But it's a good movie qua movie.

Well yeah, Kubrick never slacks when it comes to direction, but I think the screenwriting in this particular film was lacking. For example, having a scene where someone is smacked in the head with a dildo is funny, but it seems kind of out of place for a movie like this.

It's not a good movie for every viewer though. A viewer who has an aversion to violence or who wants a hero and a happy ending won't like it.

True, but it's also a movie that lacks much of a point. Beyond the theme of conditioning, there's not much there. Now, I haven't read the book, so I don't know how it compares to the source material, but when I saw the movie, it just didn't do anything for me.

I get the impression that what it did for cinema back then was probably revolutionary in some respects. But it seems like excessive violence and desensitization to it are very overplayed themes in today's media.

Maybe it's one of those films where you had to be there when it first came out to fully appreciate it.
 
With the exception of "Eyes Wide Shut" featuring:

Tom-Cruise-sunglasses_l.jpg

:eeew:

any film made by Stanley Kubrick is a work of art.

Paths of Glory
Dr. Strangelove
2001: A Space Odyssey
A Clockwork Orange
Barry Lyndon
Full Metal Jacket

The cinematography, the use of lighting, and the Kubrickian Stare
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The use of long shots to back up the foreground...
a_clockwork_orange.jpg

love those shadows.

An honorable mention is Spielberg's AI which was started by Kubrick before his death.
 
I liked it. It was a pretty good movie, one of the few that didn't really say anything but was still entertaining. A definitive Kubrick classic.
 
If there's any popular movie that desperately needs a remake, this would be the one. Kubrick is usually very good, but this was definitely one of his weaker films.
- MrMacPhisto
THE FUCK IT DOES!

I assume your feelings of its "need" to be remade is the dated architecture and fashion sense of the original, and that a remake would make it more accessible to a modern audience. In my opinion, that's an excuse for people to ignore the good works of the past for a milquetoast modernization that always falls flat (War of the Worlds ring a bell?).

Kubrick's vision of the future was a speculative projection of Modernist fashion, which was popular in the late 60s and early 70s, and an outgrowth of the Futurist art movements of the 1950s

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EX: Futurist architecture, popular in the 50s

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sleeper03.jpg

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EX: Modernist architecture, popular in late 60s and early 70s

Modernist architecture was obsessed with merging industrial function and aesthetic; incorporating the utilitarian with the casual so that it could co-exist and in the process rebuke the traditional aesthetics popular from the Renaissance and Romantic periods. It's self-aware art that draws attention to its artifice and the materials used in its creation. Wood, concrete, glass, and porcelain were among the most essential materials in Modernist design, and vibrant, contrasting primary colors were crucial schemes to the a/symmetry of the entire aesthetic. Compare the Futurist pictures with the Modernist ones and you might see the similarities between the angular, jagged designs of the exteriors of the buildings and the rounder edges of interior space, especially pertaining to light fixtures. If you've been around long enough to see shopping malls or bank buildings made in the 1970s, you'll have noticed these shapes and textures still around if they haven't been thoroughly renovated. Airports with thin multi-colored wall tiles are a classic staple that still remain.

The entire city of Brasilia was designed with this in mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasilia

Since no other film besides Blade Runner has successfully predicted the look and appearance of the future without already BEING IN IT ALREADY, Kubrick had to incorporate the then-futuristic look of Modernism and project what it might look like in the future for the audience. If somebody went back in time and designed a future that looked like today, nobody would have been able to relate to it, let alone build it (HDTVs would have been an optical printing headache).

Now perhaps in the hands of a lesser filmmaker, the gaudy period aesthetics would overwhelm the timelessness of the film, but Kubrick's photographic fundamentalism is exactly what gives it the immortal and still influential quality it enjoys today.

If Clockwork was re-made today, it would be a hyper-stylized action movie that throws out all of its potency in exchange for a happy ending (Minority Report, anyone?). It would inevitably include some romantic subplot to create empathy for the main character in the audience and fuck all of the complexity he has.

And Gawd only knows who they'd cast as Alex. I doubt they'd cast anybody of the right age given the violence, however watered down it would inevitably be. And do I REALLY have to be the one to point out that they'd shoot for a PG-13 rating and that even an R-rated cut would be tame by comparison to the original, regardless of how tame the 1971 version is by today's standards?

And it would look like crap; all Michael Bay Teal-and-Orange color grading. Read this article for more: http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

However, I will concede that Kubrick's screenplays were incredibly sparse and inferior. Kubrick was more interested in formalism and idiosyncratic behavior than he was in operatic grandeur; he famously said to Jack Nicholson that "realism is fine, but interesting is better." I don't think you could find a Kubrick film outside of Dr. Strangelove (thanks to Terry Southern and Peter Sellers) and Barry Lyndon that had a well-written script with well-written dialogue. Kubrick dials everything in directly and relies too heavily on his imagery and his hyper-stylized performances to fill it all in.

So fucking LEAVE MASTERPIECES ALONE! Remake the BAD MOVIES, not the GOOD ONES.

On this note, remember Kubrick's version of The Shining and Stephen King's remake in 1997? Which one is better? Sometimes interesting IS better than authenticity.
 
Hit in the Head by a Kubrick

For starters, I have to second Sammy's observation: If it was directed by Kubrick, see it. Period. <br> Everything he did--from the early, painfully earnest KILLER'S KISS, to the relatively conventional spectacle SPARTACUS, to the most audacious comedies of their time (LOLITA and DR. STRANGELOVE), to the signature works that could have been made by no one else, like PATHS OF GLORY, 2001 and FULL METAL JACKET--is worth experiencing.<p>
Where does A CLOCKWORK ORANGE fit in that spectrum? Well, like LOLITA, it is an adaptation of a book damned difficult to imagine as a movie. And like that film, its transgressive protagonist invites identification and revulsion--often at the same moment!<br>
I think A CLOCKWORK ORANGE was a landmark film because the violence in it
creates a truly visceral reaction, and that's quite rare. I can think of only a handful of directors--Anthony Mann, Sam Peckinpah, and, presently, Martin Scorsese come first to mind--who characteristically depict violence not as mere diversion for a filmgoer but as something fundamentally mind altering.<br>
But nothing those three directors made--not even STRAW DOGS or TAXI DRIVER-both from the same unsettled period in cinema history--comes close to A CLOCKWORK ORANGE for depicting violence that leaves the viewer truly
discomfited.<p> If anything, the direction that movie violence has taken over nearly 40 years--one in which humanity and consequence are secondary to effect and catharsis--makes A CLOCKWORK ORANGE almost breathtakingly visionary. And THAT makes it a signature Kubrick film--and essential viewing, at least once.<p>
(I could understand why you wouldn't want to watch it a second time...)
 
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Amnesiac's Comment Worth Remembering...

Amnesiac nails both the design of A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and Kubrick's modus operandi. <p>If Kubrick had intended to depict a realistic near-future in the movie, he could easily have done that (and did, after all, in 2001). Woody Allen's SLEEPER--pudding monster, foil-wrapped cryogenics, Orgasmmatron and cloning of noses and all--makes much more effort to depict "the future" (a good part of the reason it's so funny). But Modernism, after all, was all about the here and now, and A CLOCKWORK ORANGE is no more about "the future" than is THE WIZARD OF OZ.<p>
And I don't envy anyone the task of trying to remake or adapt the Kubrick sensibility. I think AI and EYES WIDE SHUT proved that quite clearly. To remake A CLOCKWORK ORANGE faithfully, one would have to set it in the '70s, or the '50s. To remake it as a realistic dystopic sf thriller would certainly not be sacrilege, but I say it would be beside the point so, why bother?
 
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I liked it.

Personally, I think it was a work of art. It made me feel strongly about its message.

It was chock full of irony. Couple of his former companions became Bobbies and they beat the crap out of their former leader.

His insincere "redemption" that he pretended to in prison in order to qualify for the program became a redemption in fact, and it destroyed the thing he loved most (9th Symphony).

I rewatch it every few years.

Good post. An interesting topic for discussion.
 
I love the movie, it's one of my favorites, but I love the book more. The way the book ended was really what made the whole story meaningful but by leaving that last punch to the storyline as the Kubrick film did, it lost quite a bit. The movie itself to me doesn't even really seem outdated. The way it was executed almost removes it from time itself, not portraying a future or a past, but something altogether different. The character portrayals, as well as the way it adhered to the strange dialect of the book, was flawless.
I guess I'd hate to see it remade since the original is so good, I;d still love to see the 21st chapter included.
 
You guys have got it all wrong, the movie’s about the make-up and fashion accessories of the period.
Great stuff to dabble in on a slow Friday night!

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Hats Off!

Hmm...OK, which film influenced fashion more: A CLOCKWORK ORANGE or ANNIE HALL?<br>
Men in bowlers and eyeliner vs. women in ties and vests...
 
Amnesiac's post was real horrorshow. It leaves a nice, warm vibraty feeling all through your guttiwuts.
 
wall of text

Unlike some people, I don't worship Kubrick. Also, I don't believe originals are always better than remakes. For example, I prefer Nolan's Batman over Burton's. I prefer Daniel Craig as Bond over Connery.

So maybe I'm a film heretic, but I do prefer that some things be updated over time.

Modernizations are not always "milquetoast", although admittedly, many are. But what I'm really getting at is that some things really do need to be modernized to remain relevant. To me, Clockwork Orange was very zeitgeist. It doesn't seem to transcend the period it was created in, despite the fact that a lot of people still seem to like it.

I understand what you mean about the limitations of the visions of the future at the time, and I'm not holding that against Kubrick. I just believe that enough time has passed that it's time to revisit the story with much more to offer in terms of envisioning the future. There are plenty of directors who could approach a remake with style and integrity -- Christopher Nolan, Andrew Niccol, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, Sam Mendes, Alfonso Cuaron, Martin Campbell, etc. It's all a matter of making sure the right person is helming the effort. Granted, a lot of remakes end up scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to writing and direction. That doesn't mean the concept of remaking something is flawed -- it just means the execution is.

I will agree with you that "interesting" is sometimes better than realistic, but admittedly, I am much more fond of realism than of eccentricity. This is why I have a love-hate relationship with Kubrick. I loved 2001, but I hated Clockwork Orange. Granted, I also liked Dr. Strangelove, but that's because, from the very onset, it was a satire. It wasn't ambivalent in its intentions, which seems to be the nature of Clockwork Orange. Full Metal Jacket is another realistic classic by him. In my opinion, Kubrick is best when he focuses on one or the other. Clockwork Orange just never seemed to make up its mind either way, as far as I could tell.
 
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