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A Clockwork Orange: is this a good movie or a bad movie

Originally Posted by Amnesiac
wall of text
Oh how true it is.

Well now that I have a more thorough explanation, I can see we're not on exactly opposite ends. I too, don't believe that remakes are bad; Ocean's Eleven was an excellent remake for instance, and I prefer the 1988 version of The Blob to the original. In fact, sometimes remakes are SUPERIOR to the originals:

jcthethingposter.jpg

Greatest remake evar.

However, as you pointed out, a remake can only transcend the limitations of the original when you have the right person at the helm such as Nolan or Cuaron. But the problem is that directors with vision, talent, and loyalty to the source material are few and far between..and the current administrations involved in remakes traffic in glossy explosions of familiar properties rather than innovative perspectives.

Should a film with Clockwork's longevity and influence be remade today, it would inevitably be beset with the sort of problems I listed at length, and to that end, the remake would not only be pointless, but also draw attention from the superior original. It would make things worse, not better. Case in point, I was REALLY looking forward to the remake of The Wicker Man. Why? because while I thought the original had one of the best horror stories of the 20th century, I always hated the look of it; you could tell they didn't have a lot of money and the film looked more amateurish than it should have. Unfortunately, the remake went on to suck more ass than Sasha Grey in a felching video and let me down in a way that showed me that an adequate budget often doesn't come without a bigger, more unendurable price. The same thing with the remake of It's Alive; the original had a great social commentary on the effects of pollution, but suffered from the limits of 1970s money and FX; the remake had a better look, but absolutely NO political depth and as a result, the flawed original remained superior to the remake.

Now maybe in a different decade or cultural climate, it could work. But at the same time I also question the validity of doing so. A film that requires certain topical considerations (i.e. technology, specific period politics, etc.) often requires a remake to make the story relatable to a different climate: WarGames, for instance, could certainly do with modern-day computer technology...as long as fans of the remake wouldn't mind ANOTHER remake 20 years later to update the hardware.

But a film that has a very unique and specific look and appeal might actually LOSE power by being remade. I worship Kubrick--this is true--but I agree that he had flaws and his talent compensated for it. That said, his interpretation of A Clockwork Orange, however dated and unfashionable as it may be today, is nevertheless so outstandingly different than other movies that utilized the same aesthetic that I think it transcends its own datedness. How else would it survive it's peers? People who haven't even SEEN Clockwork Orange still recognize the Droogs and the visual references because the images are so powerful. Straw Dogs and Dirty Harry haven't retained their once iconic power to anyone except film historians.

Perhaps in some way MacPhisto your argument is sound. However, if you accept that your idea is a good one, and that Clockwork should be remade, you have to ask yourself this:

Would the remake be as well-made, well-remembered, and have the same longevity as its predecessor?

I would say that unless the answer is an unequivocal "yes", it should be left alone. Not on a general principle that "remakes are bad" but rather on the principle that "some films are too good to deserve bad remakes."



P.S.
Jaws could benefit from the animatronic advancements of today...but would it be worth tarnishing the original, and drawing attention to the shortcomings of the remake just because the shark looks MORE fake today than it did 35 years ago?
 
Oh how true it is.

Well now that I have a more thorough explanation, I can see we're not on exactly opposite ends. I too, don't believe that remakes are bad; Ocean's Eleven was an excellent remake for instance, and I prefer the 1988 version of The Blob to the original. In fact, sometimes remakes are SUPERIOR to the originals:

jcthethingposter.jpg

Greatest remake evar.

Definitely. "The Thing" is just awesome... I've never understood how Carpenter could release something like that and never really reach that level of excellence ever again. It's like he doesn't try anymore... but that's another discussion.

However, as you pointed out, a remake can only transcend the limitations of the original when you have the right person at the helm such as Nolan or Cuaron. But the problem is that directors with vision, talent, and loyalty to the source material are few and far between..and the current administrations involved in remakes traffic in glossy explosions of familiar properties rather than innovative perspectives.

100% agreed

Should a film with Clockwork's longevity and influence be remade today, it would inevitably be beset with the sort of problems I listed at length, and to that end, the remake would not only be pointless, but also draw attention from the superior original. It would make things worse, not better. Case in point, I was REALLY looking forward to the remake of The Wicker Man. Why? because while I thought the original had one of the best horror stories of the 20th century, I always hated the look of it; you could tell they didn't have a lot of money and the film looked more amateurish than it should have. Unfortunately, the remake went on to suck more ass than Sasha Grey in a felching video and let me down in a way that showed me that an adequate budget often doesn't come without a bigger, more unendurable price. The same thing with the remake of It's Alive; the original had a great social commentary on the effects of pollution, but suffered from the limits of 1970s money and FX; the remake had a better look, but absolutely NO political depth and as a result, the flawed original remained superior to the remake.

Nice metaphor... lol... I know what you mean. It would be very difficult to remake Clockwork Orange in an effective, game changing way. I think someone like Christopher Nolan could pull it off, but yeah, inevitably many purists would denounce it regardless of how good it actually would be.

It kind of reminds me of what happened with Casino Royale. Craig kicked ass as Bond, but he never really got any credit for it by the purists until Quantum of Solace came out. It wasn't until an inferior sequel was released that the purists finally admitted that Casino Royale was a really good film. It's kind of funny the way purist logic works sometimes.

So basically, this huge obstacle involved is what discourages a lot of the better directors from doing remakes. They usually are very reluctant to remake classics unless they are given an amazing script to work with -- something that's both faithful but still throws in a few new things to expand on.

Now maybe in a different decade or cultural climate, it could work. But at the same time I also question the validity of doing so. A film that requires certain topical considerations (i.e. technology, specific period politics, etc.) often requires a remake to make the story relatable to a different climate: WarGames, for instance, could certainly do with modern-day computer technology...as long as fans of the remake wouldn't mind ANOTHER remake 20 years later to update the hardware.

But a film that has a very unique and specific look and appeal might actually LOSE power by being remade. I worship Kubrick--this is true--but I agree that he had flaws and his talent compensated for it. That said, his interpretation of A Clockwork Orange, however dated and unfashionable as it may be today, is nevertheless so outstandingly different than other movies that utilized the same aesthetic that I think it transcends its own datedness. How else would it survive it's peers? People who haven't even SEEN Clockwork Orange still recognize the Droogs and the visual references because the images are so powerful. Straw Dogs and Dirty Harry haven't retained their once iconic power to anyone except film historians.

Perhaps in some way MacPhisto your argument is sound. However, if you accept that your idea is a good one, and that Clockwork should be remade, you have to ask yourself this:

Would the remake be as well-made, well-remembered, and have the same longevity as its predecessor?

I would say that unless the answer is an unequivocal "yes", it should be left alone. Not on a general principle that "remakes are bad" but rather on the principle that "some films are too good to deserve bad remakes."

Good points... Admittedly, I probably like Nolan a little too much. And to your question, the answer is most likely no for many remakes.

I can think of a few new spins on the story that might accomplish a yes, but it is very unlikely that they would be attempted by any capable director.

P.S.
Jaws could benefit from the animatronic advancements of today...but would it be worth tarnishing the original, and drawing attention to the shortcomings of the remake just because the shark looks MORE fake today than it did 35 years ago?

Heh heh... Yes, bad CGI is often worse than bad animatronics... Granted, I think Jaws is more one of those movies that people appreciate for its uniqueness than its longevity. Even though I didn't care for Clockwork Orange, I would still put it far above Jaws.
 
P.S.
Jaws could benefit from the animatronic advancements of today...but would it be worth tarnishing the original, and drawing attention to the shortcomings of the remake just because the shark looks MORE fake today than it did 35 years ago?

Oh the stink I would raise if they remade Jaws... not that anyone would listen 😀

The beauty of Jaws if the simplicity, but Hollywood can never realize this and so they take the original idea, make it bigger and then beat the idea in the ground.

It's the disease of more.

But back on topic...

NO WAY should A Clockwork Orange be remade either! 😀
 
THE FUCK IT DOES!

I assume your feelings of its "need" to be remade is the dated architecture and fashion sense of the original, and that a remake would make it more accessible to a modern audience. In my opinion, that's an excuse for people to ignore the good works of the past for a milquetoast modernization that always falls flat (War of the Worlds ring a bell?).

Kubrick's vision of the future was a speculative projection of Modernist fashion, which was popular in the late 60s and early 70s, and an outgrowth of the Futurist art movements of the 1950s

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EX: Futurist architecture, popular in the 50s

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EX: Modernist architecture, popular in late 60s and early 70s

Modernist architecture was obsessed with merging industrial function and aesthetic; incorporating the utilitarian with the casual so that it could co-exist and in the process rebuke the traditional aesthetics popular from the Renaissance and Romantic periods. It's self-aware art that draws attention to its artifice and the materials used in its creation. Wood, concrete, glass, and porcelain were among the most essential materials in Modernist design, and vibrant, contrasting primary colors were crucial schemes to the a/symmetry of the entire aesthetic. Compare the Futurist pictures with the Modernist ones and you might see the similarities between the angular, jagged designs of the exteriors of the buildings and the rounder edges of interior space, especially pertaining to light fixtures. If you've been around long enough to see shopping malls or bank buildings made in the 1970s, you'll have noticed these shapes and textures still around if they haven't been thoroughly renovated. Airports with thin multi-colored wall tiles are a classic staple that still remain.

The entire city of Brasilia was designed with this in mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasilia

Since no other film besides Blade Runner has successfully predicted the look and appearance of the future without already BEING IN IT ALREADY, Kubrick had to incorporate the then-futuristic look of Modernism and project what it might look like in the future for the audience. If somebody went back in time and designed a future that looked like today, nobody would have been able to relate to it, let alone build it (HDTVs would have been an optical printing headache).

Now perhaps in the hands of a lesser filmmaker, the gaudy period aesthetics would overwhelm the timelessness of the film, but Kubrick's photographic fundamentalism is exactly what gives it the immortal and still influential quality it enjoys today.

If Clockwork was re-made today, it would be a hyper-stylized action movie that throws out all of its potency in exchange for a happy ending (Minority Report, anyone?). It would inevitably include some romantic subplot to create empathy for the main character in the audience and fuck all of the complexity he has.

And Gawd only knows who they'd cast as Alex. I doubt they'd cast anybody of the right age given the violence, however watered down it would inevitably be. And do I REALLY have to be the one to point out that they'd shoot for a PG-13 rating and that even an R-rated cut would be tame by comparison to the original, regardless of how tame the 1971 version is by today's standards?

And it would look like crap; all Michael Bay Teal-and-Orange color grading. Read this article for more: http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

However, I will concede that Kubrick's screenplays were incredibly sparse and inferior. Kubrick was more interested in formalism and idiosyncratic behavior than he was in operatic grandeur; he famously said to Jack Nicholson that "realism is fine, but interesting is better." I don't think you could find a Kubrick film outside of Dr. Strangelove (thanks to Terry Southern and Peter Sellers) and Barry Lyndon that had a well-written script with well-written dialogue. Kubrick dials everything in directly and relies too heavily on his imagery and his hyper-stylized performances to fill it all in.

So fucking LEAVE MASTERPIECES ALONE! Remake the BAD MOVIES, not the GOOD ONES.

On this note, remember Kubrick's version of The Shining and Stephen King's remake in 1997? Which one is better? Sometimes interesting IS better than authenticity.

i agree with this post for the most part.

although, the shining comparison is compelling but a bit misleading. Stephen King is TERRIBLE at adapting his books to films. I can't remember all off the top of my head but he butchered Pet Sematary (one of my favorite books) and Thinner (believe he was heavily involed in this).

Anyway, Clockwork is one of my favorite books. And although it probably wouldn't come to mind if someone asked my favorite movies, I loved the movie as well. I for one hate when people say "the book is so much better". Books and movies are such different media that comparing them is ridiculous. Plus, people have a natural disposition to argue in favor of the book, in my opinion stemming from our culture placing such a high cultural tag on books while movies are often fluff. IMO, they are so different that it is pointless to compare a remake; if the only similarity is the plot, in the scheme of everything, that's not even a major element. How many scenarios are there where the consensus is that the movie is better? I can think of two, Godfather and Star Wars. To me this suggests that people simply think READING is more pleasurable than watching movies. That is fine, I probably agree, but can we isolate the books from the films a little bit?.

Anyway, I loved Kubrick's interpretation.

Interesting factoid is that the original novel had the main character (whats his name, Alex?) actually changes and becomes good in the end. However, the publishers didn't like it and thought it detracted from the irresistable violence throughout the book. So the original ending wasn't published in the mainstream copy. seriously, if we're talking about butchering a work of art, that should be the gripe, not the reimaging into a film which is simply incomparable to the book...:yarr:
 
If you don't get it, then you probably need to read the book, although I felt that this was a great adaptation.
 
It was a movie about mindless senseless violence with nothing more in mind....as it was it was done quite well in kubrick's own way...

As for remakes....NO movie should ever be redone.....the original is what it is and should be left alone.....
 
It's one of my favourites. Kubrick was brilliant, and to me the fact that his last film was Eyes Wide Shut only confirms his celestial awesomeness: he would literally die before making a film that sucked.
 
I am not very big fun of movies like that...although some here might say that I have very bad taste for the movies..I am not going to show with my finger who:numberone:, but in Clockwork orange I like the way it was filmed, costumes and make up: all very original. Plot: I still don't know wtf was happening in that movie..it might be because movie is all oddtwisted like that or because my English sucks 😱
 
I don't know Ray, i'd say there was more in play then just a little bit of the old ultraviolence, though it was deffinitly a graphic movie. Interestingly enough, it's one of only two X rated movies to ever be up for an oscar, i believe. Or was that accademy waward? One of the two. The other one was "midnight Cowboy", which i deffinitly felt was a movie that didn't live up to it's hype.
 
I don't know Ray, I'd say there was more in play then just a little bit of the old ultra-violence, though it was definitely a graphic movie. Interestingly enough, it's one of only two X rated movies to ever be up for an Oscar, i believe. Or was that academy award? One of the two. The other one was "midnight Cowboy", which i deffinitly felt was a movie that didn't live up to it's hype.

I think they are both the same. What was the other X rated film? Caligula I would guess.
 
THE FUCK IT DOES!

So fucking LEAVE MASTERPIECES ALONE! Remake the BAD MOVIES, not the GOOD ONES.

On this note, remember Kubrick's version of The Shining and Stephen King's remake in 1997? Which one is better? Sometimes interesting IS better than authenticity.


Well spoken sir. As a fellow Kubrick student I have to say that Clockwork is probably the 2nd most brilliant of Kubrick masterpieces. Technically, at its time, it was the most precise exercise in filmmaking in existence. It was the first truly “modern” film in the sense of what Kubrick and his cameraman John Alcott were able to achieve with lighting, camera lenses (which Kubrick would break the barrier in his next film Barry Lyndon,) and location shooting. It was the first film in which Dolby sound was available, although Kubrick ultimately rejected it.

As far as it lacking a meaning other than gratuitous violence, Kubrick said and I quote “The central idea of the film has to do with the question of free will. Do we lose our humanity if we are deprived of the choice between good and evil?"

If you want to remake a film, chose one from a novel that was grossly slaughtered by the screenwriter. I'll give Logan's Run as an example, which was a brilliantly compelling novel but a docile mind numbing film.

Also, Clockwork demonstrates Kubrick’s power of control when he pulled the film out of release in Great Britain due to copy cat murders, allegedly inspired by the film.
 
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