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A Kid Who Died

Neutron

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Last Saturday night a young man I knew very well took his own life. He was 18. I'd coached him for 3 years in CYO Football. I'm friends with his father. He had a college scholarship, a wonderful mother, and if you asked him he'd tell you he had a stable homelife. Yet breaking up with his girlfriend made him decide to end it all. I went to the showing, but was too heartsick to attend the funeral. I wish I could have told him this.

I think what others described hits it dead on. Society as a whole is way to prone to just take the easy way out, vice set an example for kids that life isn't always easy or convenient. Take drugs for "ADD" Much of what is described as ADD was normal childhood behaviour for us. Now, parents either don't want to control their kids, or they can't. The teachers are put in a bind because they're being thrust into a position that isn't rightfully theirs, so they get a psychologist involved. Said psychologist HAS to diagnose something, so ADD it is. The kid is never held accountable for their actions, and learns at an early age that behaviour isn't controlled by mom and dad, it's controlled by a pill. Ever notice how many parents seem to spend so much time talking about the various things that are "wrong" with their kids? Like it's a badge of courage.

Now Ryan wasn't a behaviour case. But I will say he constantly seemed to evaluate himself by what others thought about him. Even when he played ball for me he was always wondering if he was having a good game, rather than just play the game. He was an excellent player, but always seemed to worry about the crowds approval.
Today kids seem so worried about how others will think about them. Having a girlfriend is a status symbol, not a way to get social interaction with girls. MOre horrible in my mind is these kids seems to put so much emphasis about how their girlfriend thinks about them they forget what's more important is how they view themselves. There are always people ready to stomp all over you. They don't see it doesn't matter who loves them, if they can't love themselves. This young man shot himself because his girlfriend broke up with him. It didn't matter he had an excellent scholarship to a good school, or that he had great parents, and dozens of friends. What mattered is he was so wrapped up in someone elses assessment of his worth that he didn't take into consideration the only opinion that counts on that is his own. My guess is all the other gifts he had in life he didn't feel he earned, maybe because many came too easy. I think as a society we've taught our kids the value of instant gratification, without teaching that that anything you've obtained easily can also reject you just as easily. And that even though something is obtained at some cost to oneself that thw\ey can't or shouldn't sell themselves to it. Trouble is, kids today give themselves away far too easily, maybe it's the 90 minute movie mentality that's been instilled in them, that being anything that can't be solved easily in 90 minutes is far too difficult, and perhaps world or life shattering.

I and my siblings were raised to be independent to a fault. I was told to read, I worked my ass off, and I played hard. Nothing was instant, and my parents made sure I was aware of the value I brought to the world. The other thing they never did, they never tried to hide the affects of hurt from me. I knew at a young age the world could be tough, and I needed to be tough to win at life. When a lady broke up with me I realized, Hey I'll get another. Sure it hurt, but I also knew I was successful at a lot of things, AND since I'd been given the chance to fail, and had felt failure I knew it wouldn't kill me.

Kids today seem so addicted to instant success (witness how many will buy a video game, then download cheats from the net), that they don't think it's ok to fail. A Goal is something that they don't work towards. It's something that's been instilled life will grant them. Not something that's earned.

If I was to say one thing to a teen these days I'd say don't measure your value by someone elses vision of you. Measure it by how hard you work to achieve what you feel is your due or your goal. We all have various abilities and talents but our potential is limitless. The true measure when one looks in a mirror isn't whether you achieved your goal, the true measure is how hard you worked for it. If you can say yes I gave it my best, then you automatically succeeded because the one thing you can never cheat on is yourself.

I also wish they could do this, so I'll paint a picture. Last Saturday night a very good looking young man, with a bright future elected to end his life with a gun because he felt his breaking up with a girl meant there was no love left for him. 3 days later I was at the funeral home. It took me TWENTY FIVE MINUTES standing in line just so I could see his father. TWENTY FIVE MINUTES. This was at 8PM and it had been like that since noon. They had to open two waiting rooms to accomodate those who were just hanging around, thinking about a bright life, of a young man they loved and admired, that was snuffed out before that life even really started.

I know everyone doesn't have that many admirers or friends, but we all have at least one or two. I really hope, that any young person will at least keep the image I just painted in their mind if they ever feel they need to end it. Maybe they believe the room will be empty, the line short, but that's simply not true. Even if the line is one person long, the room only occupied by one or two people, it's way too many. Just fast forwrd their life to that moment, and hopefully they'll make a different choice. Life is about dreams and goals, whether you achieve them or not is immaterial, what matters is you dared to dream, you dared to chase that dream, and you pursued a goal, no matter how minor or insignificant it seems. What someone else thought of it, or you, doesn't matter. Some of the best swings we take are as we are falling, and scars won honorably, and taken with grace are far more important that successes that we did not earn.

NEVER concentrate on what's been given to you. Earn what's in your life, assess what you've earned and hopefully you'll place enough value on your life to put the gun down.

Sorry if I bored ya. But this place has some younguns, and if they ever feel it's easier to take their life, than to stay in the game, I hope at least something I wrote hits home, and makes them think, you know, living is worth it.

Tron
 
Oh Tron...

What can I say that could ease your pain. Nothing.

You said so much about how so many kids are affected in our society today. Measuring up! Peer Pressure! Media Focus! Meds to cover up the pain! Yet it's just life experiences that we all have to go through.

I feel so bad that he felt he had to end his life and for what? Because his relationship ended? Oh if he only knew about all the other gals around who would have loved to be his partner. I bet there were so many.

And the parents - Every day of their lives will be filled with all the What if's... questioning each and every word spoken to him before he decided not to give it a chance and talk to someone.

I pray that you can ease your concerns about what you could have done to save his tormented mind. It sounds like you were there for him. He just choose not to open up to you. And I pray his soul will rest and that somehow his parents, friends and former girlfriend can find some peace somehow from this horrid tragedy.
 
You know T and I are thewre for ya Mike...

Just an email away....

Ray
 
Thanks..

I'll be ok. I just worry about the parents and the sibling.

Tron
 
Introspection by an overachiever

Ok, I'm going to talk about myself a lot.

When things are given to you, it's very easy to set near impossible standards for yourself. I was blessed with a decent intellect and a family that was well educated. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment for me to have good grades, receive a scholarship, and land a good job. The grades I did have to work for but since it was par on for my family I don't take any personal pride in them, only pride in my family. The job was curtesy of a friend.

What goals am I to aim for? What can I do that will not seem like a failure in comparison, or if it is how will I keep it from hurting my self-esteem?
Any failures that I have perhaps are inherent to myself and cannot be changed. Therefore by failing it exposes a fatal flaw and no amount of good attributes can outweigh that.
I am also guilty of judging my self worth by others opinion of me but this is because I doubt my social skills.

I would attribute downloading cheats to videogames more to impatience than fear of failure. Some of the videogames are just too freaking hard and it gets boring if you don't use them.

I think the guy committing suicide may have been thinking that he would never find anyone as good as her and didn't want to live with it haunting him.
 
An associate of my daughter just recently hanged himself. It must be that time of the year again! It is so unfortunate that our children simply don't have the coping skills we did at their age. Not that teens weren't killing themselves in my generation, I just believe more us valued human life. Nowadays, so many things are promoted to devalue human life. We have the gangstas who shoot into crowds of innocent people just to make a point. I won't open the door about abortion, or the increased numbers of these young girls who carry a baby to term, have the kid in the basement or somewhere, then walk away as if it never happened. Now we're dealing with kids who don't even value their own lives.

I recently told my daughter about kids making adult decisions being ill prepared to deal with the consequences. These kids are deciding to take their own lives as if no one else will be affected by it. I wish I could catch them all to tell them that the crisis will pass if they just hold on awhile. One of the worst experiences a parent will ever have is if they have to bury their own child. It's the worst feeling in the world. I wish there was an answer for this-but there's no comfort to these young mens' families. Nothing will make this right or bring them back to their parents and loved ones.
 
O/T

Moderators Note: Your posts are being removed for being off topic. Also, pay attention to events at the forum - Venray is no longer a moderator, and has not been for several weeks now. So stop blaming him for all your post removals and edits. Thank you.
 
All These Are Great Replies..

And far more than I ever expected. Amnesiac I think you showed a hell of a lot of insight. I don't agree with everything you posted, but my disagreement is in detail, not general thought.

I would hope someone much younger than us may see this some day and maybe utilize some of the thoughts here to their advantage.

Tron
 
Amnesiac,

Although you have some points, I do not completely agree with your conclusions. Protestants are NOT the reason behind society's ills. There's plenty of blame for other religions to go around and I choose not to expand on this.

It's a society that has imploded on itself that is the blame. A society that says "more, more, more" and "better, better and better" is the blame. A culture that strives to befriend as opposed to properly raising their children is also to blame. Many parents are not preparing their children for adulthood at all. They are too busy trying to give their children the best things and are not taking the time to get to know them as people. That's all kids really want from their parents is time and attention. Gifts and things are nice, but knowing their parents love them is substantially more important. That has NOTHING to do with Protestantism at all!

Children are children, not little adults. We have given them far too many rights in this country particularly. They don't have the maturity to handle all of the decision making. They don't have the ability to handle the consequences of that decision making either. That leaves us parents stuck with having to deal with it. If have to pay the consequences of their poor decision making, I should have the rights to raise my children not to make the bad decisions in the first place. It doesn't guarantee it won't happen anyway, but I think it would lessen so much tragedy that children are causing in society today. We didn't have Columbine in my generation. We didn't have children getting life sentences at age thirteen in my generation. We had suicides, but at a much lower rate than it is today. Somethings gone terribly wrong, and it's not Protestantism. We need to get back to the basics and start paying more attention to our children. Some of them will tell you they need you and some will show you. You have to stay tuned in to your kids and watch for the signs before they do something extreme.
 
Tron~
I'm so sorry to hear it. You and a few others here are aware of my experiences losing friends to early death as a teen. You know how to reach me if you want to talk...

XOXO
 
Tron, i hope you don't mind me replying to this being new and all, but i felt i had to.

first of all im sorry you lost a friend, and his family/friends are in my thoughts.

the reason i need to reply to this is that at the moment i am currently on strong anti-depressants. I have just come out of an abusive relationship, the guy beat me senseless, raped me and other stuff i don't think is fair to share on a public board. I have thought many times about killing myself. Im currently cutting my arms as a way of release. I was just about to make some more marks on my arms when i read your post, and something just lightened inside of me. I feel more hopeful. Why should i have to pay for something someone else did, when its not me who is wrong. I'm only 21, i've got the rest of my life to do whatever i want, and i can't let those opportunities go.

i can't say im never going to harm myself again, but for now thankyou for helping me stop tonight.

if you ever want to chat, just pm me

take care and God Bless

Casey
 
Oh, and friends, please please remember, as someone who counsels suicidal patients on an nearly daily basis, no one ever really knows why people do this. It's so easy to dwell on seemingly "exterior" things like "She had EVERYTHING, she was prom queen, her family was wealthy, she got into Stanford" etc...Someone who's suicidal NEVER realizes there's light at the end of the tunnel. All they see is darkness that they think will last forever. Ending it feels like their only way to end that pain.

XOXO
 
🙂

TickleMeCasey said:
Tron, i hope you don't mind me replying to this being new and all, but i felt i had to.

first of all im sorry you lost a friend, and his family/friends are in my thoughts.

the reason i need to reply to this is that at the moment i am currently on strong anti-depressants. I have just come out of an abusive relationship, the guy beat me senseless, raped me and other stuff i don't think is fair to share on a public board. I have thought many times about killing myself. Im currently cutting my arms as a way of release. I was just about to make some more marks on my arms when i read your post, and something just lightened inside of me. I feel more hopeful. Why should i have to pay for something someone else did, when its not me who is wrong. I'm only 21, i've got the rest of my life to do whatever i want, and i can't let those opportunities go.

i can't say im never going to harm myself again, but for now thankyou for helping me stop tonight.

if you ever want to chat, just pm me

take care and God Bless

Casey


Never pay for someone elses sins sweetheart, they'll never put the value on your soul that it's inherently worth.

I do appreciate your feedback, and should you ever think it might be ok to cut yourself again just look in a mirror and realize that you're priceless and why would anyone mar a masterpiece?

You are always welcome to email me. My address is in my profile.

Tron
 
Last edited:
kis..

Read Amnesiacs post again. His points go far beyond the WASP Syndrome.

When it comes down to it his point is we don't place value on the person, we place value on how we perceive them according to their age or how we believe they should act.

If anything this paragraph he wrote was priceless, and timeless.


"But age does NOT equal maturity, which is the true temper of wisdom, and the automatic assumption that it does is what often leads to these types of situations that Tron is talking about. Children, being unfamiliar with the routine ways of the pack, are valued more for their talents and potential use to the pack than their individual qualities such as beliefs, opinions, perspectives, etc. (this is due primarily to their flights of fantasies). The hierarchy of parent/child groups are ageist, and based on imperialist authority than actual qualifications as leaders."



Wish I had typed that.

Tron

PS : I lost your email address!!
 
Re: 🙂

Neutron said:
Never pay for someone elses sins sweetheart, they'll never put the value on your soul that it's inherently worth.

I do appreciate your feedback, and should you ever think it might be ok to cut yourself again just look in a mirror and realize that you're priceless and why would anyone mar a masterpiece?

You are always welcome to email me. My address is in my profile.

Tron

Thanks tron, thats possibly the one thing anyone has said that has made me feel a bit better.
My email addy is [email protected] if ya wanna talk sometime

God Bless
 
You're Welcome..

And by the way your original post absolutely made my day and Christmas. In fact I'm thrilled right now.

Thank you 🙂

Tron
 
Casey, first let me say that Iam terribly sorry to hear about the abuse you suffered. Abusive relationships can scar for a long time. I do hope that by being away from the guy who abused you, and with the medication, that you can be on the road to feeling better about yourself.
As most on here who know me are aware, I had a very difficult childhood at the hands of my father and his family who wanted to essentially take over my being and my soul. My father wanted to control who I loved, how I lived my life, and such. I was very close to my mom's parents, because they were warm, loving, individuals, and was not close to my father's mother and brother, because they were vicious troublemakers who ruined my family.
My father and I were estranged for 11 years, from the outset of my parents seperation in 1989, until a frightening health scare I had in 2000. Even after an 11 year estrangement, nothing changed. We were in touch for four years, but even at age 30 plus. (I'm 34 now) he still couldnt get it through his head that being a father did not mean to control your child. I had long ago decided to remove myself from his family due to their treatment of me, and also refused to see his wife because she married him not caring he and I were estranged, and then passed judgement on me for not seeing his family when she didnt know the situation. I wanted to have a seperate relationship, but he couldnt understand this, and eventually, his actions led to another estrangement.
My point in posting all this is the following. I was in therapy for many, many years due to my father's treatment of me, because my self confidence was shattered until my parents split. I was nearly anorexic, weighing less than 115 pounds at age 20 when they split. Being away from him has helped me immensely, as Iam now at 190.
I do understand and sympathize with the circumstance of feeling suicidal due to your situation. Many times in my childhood after an episode of abuse by my father and his family, telling me how I was nothing, a failure, ugly, thin and gawky, and how they didnt love me, I wanted to take a knife from the drawer and kill myself, or drive my car on to the train tracks at our station in town and get run over by a train!
Casey, I hope this doesnt sound like a cliche, because I mean this with the best of intentions, having felt suicidal under different circumstances: Please, please, do not give in to those feelings of hurting yourself. If you do, the abusers win! With the help of your therapist and your medication, you can work through these feelings and be on the road to feeling better about yourself. It will take time and effort and working through many emotions which can be devestating and painful, but it can be done. Iam glad that Tron's post inspired you, and made you feel better, and I hope this one does too. If you ever need to talk about general stuff, please feel free to PM me anytime. Iam a good listener, with a non judgemental ear and clear thoughts. I know sometimes people just need to vent, and Iam very good for that.
My Email is [email protected]. Please put who you are in the subject head if you decide to email as I dont open emails from people I dont know.
Take care, Casey, and I hope being here will help you. TMF is a great place filled with supportive people who talk about any subject. The chatters and mods have been a wonderful support to me in the two years I've been here, they are like my online family. I hope that you will feel the same way. Merry Christmas to you!

All the best,
Mitch

P'S I wrote the PM to you before I read this. I hope you dont mind.
 
Re: kis..

Neutron said:
Read Amnesiacs post again. His points go far beyond the WASP Syndrome.

When it comes down to it his point is we don't place value on the person, we place value on how we perceive them according to their age or how we believe they should act.

If anything this paragraph he wrote was priceless, and timeless.


"But age does NOT equal maturity, which is the true temper of wisdom, and the automatic assumption that it does is what often leads to these types of situations that Tron is talking about. Children, being unfamiliar with the routine ways of the pack, are valued more for their talents and potential use to the pack than their individual qualities such as beliefs, opinions, perspectives, etc. (this is due primarily to their flights of fantasies). The hierarchy of parent/child groups are ageist, and based on imperialist authority than actual qualifications as leaders."



Wish I had typed that.

Tron

PS : I lost your email address!!

I've read it again and still don't agree with it. Way too much of the wrong emphasis is being placed on children nowadays. Too many excuses for not striving for excellence makes these kids unready for the real world. They lack age-appropriate maturity and coping skills for age-appropriate issues. And it's getting worse generation after generation. What's wrong with raising your children to respect (not necessarily agree with) authority? What's wrong with teaching your kids to respect themselves and dress and behave like self-respecting people do? I've done it with my children and they're not saints, but they are very respectful, properly dressed for public, well-spoken intelligent children. What's wrong with that? If that means I'm part of a Protestant-driven pack mentality, I'd wear it on my forehead if necessary.

I said it before and it bears repeating: We need to get back to the basics and raise our children to respect themselves and others. Stop making excuses for the pathetic shortcomings showing up in the news everyday and parent your kids! You're not their friend, you are the parent. You become the friend after they become adults and you stop supporting them. Unfortunately, it won't guarantee suicides won't occur but it may save some lives.

P. S. watch for the upcoming PM!
 
TickleMeCasey said:
Tron, i hope you don't mind me replying to this being new and all, but i felt i had to.

first of all im sorry you lost a friend, and his family/friends are in my thoughts.

the reason i need to reply to this is that at the moment i am currently on strong anti-depressants. I have just come out of an abusive relationship, the guy beat me senseless, raped me and other stuff i don't think is fair to share on a public board. I have thought many times about killing myself. Im currently cutting my arms as a way of release. I was just about to make some more marks on my arms when i read your post, and something just lightened inside of me. I feel more hopeful. Why should i have to pay for something someone else did, when its not me who is wrong. I'm only 21, i've got the rest of my life to do whatever i want, and i can't let those opportunities go.

i can't say im never going to harm myself again, but for now thankyou for helping me stop tonight.

if you ever want to chat, just pm me

take care and God Bless

Casey

Dearest Casey;

There's bad news and good news:

The bad news is that you subjected yourself to such self-abuse. Somewhere down the road of life you forgot that you are a beautiful person who deserves love, respect, and to be treated like the queen you are. You've hurt yourself and have allowed others to hurt you tremendously.

The good news is that this thread turned the light on and that you deserve so much better. I haven't been 21 in a long time but I remember how I used to treat myself and allowed people to treat me. I was the obese woman who didn't feel she deserved good people in her life. I allowed everyone to use me and hurt me. I had no one on the internet to help me through and I suffered for many years. Well, I'm not suffering anymore and I've learned to love myself and if it's good enough for me than it should be enough for others. Sweetheart, you are good enough and I'm glad you came to the board. I hope you contribute many posts and we can all see you blossom as time goes on.

PM me anytime if you need to talk. I hope this has helped you.
 
Re: Re: kis..

kis123 said:
I've read it again and still don't agree with it. Way too much of the wrong emphasis is being placed on children nowadays. Too many excuses for not striving for excellence makes these kids unready for the real world. They lack age-appropriate maturity and coping skills for age-appropriate issues. And it's getting worse generation after generation. What's wrong with raising your children to respect (not necessarily agree with) authority? What's wrong with teaching your kids to respect themselves and dress and behave like self-respecting people do? I've done it with my children and they're not saints, but they are very respectful, properly dressed for public, well-spoken intelligent children. What's wrong with that? If that means I'm part of a Protestant-driven pack mentality, I'd wear it on my forehead if necessary.

I said it before and it bears repeating: We need to get back to the basics and raise our children to respect themselves and others. Stop making excuses for the pathetic shortcomings showing up in the news everyday and parent your kids! You're not their friend, you are the parent. You become the friend after they become adults and you stop supporting them. Unfortunately, it won't guarantee suicides won't occur but it may save some lives.

P. S. watch for the upcoming PM!

I find it slightly disturbing you associate how people dress with their self-worth.
I don't respect people in authority simply because they are in authority. I will tolerate them and obey if necessary. Unfortunately those in superior positions are not always there because of superior intellect or wisdom.
It is difficult to respect yourself when excellence is expected. If you do well, you're just doing what you should do and there's nothing better you can do without being a truly exceptional individual.
There are limits to what a parent can do. It's not fair to blame them for all the shortcomings of their child, just as it probably isn't fair to credit them for all their successes either.
 
Re: Re: Re: kis..

AquaFeline said:
I find it slightly disturbing you associate how people dress with their self-worth.
I don't respect people in authority simply because they are in authority. I will tolerate them and obey if necessary. Unfortunately those in superior positions are not always there because of superior intellect or wisdom.
It is difficult to respect yourself when excellence is expected. If you do well, you're just doing what you should do and there's nothing better you can do without being a truly exceptional individual.
There are limits to what a parent can do. It's not fair to blame them for all the shortcomings of their child, just as it probably isn't fair to credit them for all their successes either.

With all due respect A.Feline:

There is absolutely nothing wrong like dressing like a human being. You will be received and respected more for your opininions if you don't present yourself like you just fell out of a garbage dumpster. You don't have to agree with it, it's simply the truth. I didn't make the rules, I simply try to follow them within reason.

There was a time respect was given. You didn't have to like that person in authority, but you had to respect the position that person worked to get in. Another example what's wrong with many people today-they don't like to give honor where it's due. I don't like George "Dubya" Bush at all, but he's still president and I respect it.

Yes, I expect excellence from my children and for the most part, they deliver. Excellence is not necessarily what you assume I think it is. My oldest child is autistic and mentally handicapped. His excellence was to obtain his high school diploma when only 200 of 600 kids graduated from his school last year. How many of those 400 kids just gave up and became deadbeats? How many of them are in the streets right now? In jail? Became teen parents? How many of them are even still alive? My son could have easily become one of them. Why didn't he? I didn't accept excuses even from him. I expected his very best--that, my dear, is what I define as excellence! Not everyone can be a Rhodes scholar, but everyone short of major defect can complete high school!!! NO EXCUSES FOR MEDIOCRITY AT ALL!! That also covers the parenting issue. Too much Dr. Spock-trying to be buddies with our children mentality. I cannot count how many times I've been in public witnessing rude, obnoxious, disrespectful behavior from children towards their parents. My children will tell you that I did not tolerate that type of behavior at all. They would look at them with horror and disgust because of the way they treat their parents. I love my children and they love me very much. They will tell you that when it comes to respectful behavior, I don't give an inch-I expect the very best and I get it too! You teach your child to respect when they're young and when they get older you don't have to put up with tyrants that verbally and even physically abuse their parents. Parenting is not always a democracy-sometimes it has to be a dictatorship where the parent is the one who is in CHARGE! When your kids become parents, they should do the same with their kids. GET BACK TO THE BASICS AND YOU WILL RESOLVE MOST OF WHAT IS GOING ON OUT HERE WITH KIDS TODAY!!!!

With any failure, I blamed myself and thought that I was responsible. I felt I missed something and looked to me for responsiblility for their actions. If it was my fault, I fixed it. If it was their fault, I made them fix it. And yes, you can credit yourself (in part) for their successes since you're the one making the sacrifices, paying the fees for lessons, driving them where they need to go. If they become successful it's mostly because of their parent's love and support, not because the child did it themselves. That's responsible parenting, not this crap that goes on nowadays. If you teach your kid boundaries and right from wrong, most of what they get into can be avoided.

How can you say it is difficult to respect yourself when excellence is expected? That strikes me as a complete contradiction. If you expect excellence from yourself you are doing what you should and it should INCREASE self-confidence and self respect. If you know you give 100% of your best effort every day how can you NOT respect yourself??? I didn't say you had to be perfect, but you should offer your best and not give any excuses. Excuses are like a certain part of the anatomy, everybody has one and they're full of ##it!

How can you tell me that parents aren't responsible for the way their children treat them and others? That is why children have parents in the first place. They are to be taught how to be productive members of society. They don't fall from the womb knowing these things-we as parents are responsible to teach them. If you're not going to do the job, don't have the kids-plain and simple! But, how can you do that when you're afraid of them? Are you a parent? Have you raised any children? If you haven't, wait until it's your turn. My words will be ringing in your ears like the bells of St. Francis! If you have children, I wish you luck raising them. I hope your methodology works for you because I know mine worked for me-I have the fininshed product and I know what I'm talking about is true.
 
And another thing.........

Respect is not some tyrannical "bow and scrape"! It is merely stepping aside to give credence or acknowledgement to the person, their position, their existence. No one has to subject themself to kissing someone's ring. If that's what people think that's what I mean by respecting authority, they are mistaken.

I mean to offend no one. I call it as I see it and I appreciate everyone else that does the same in a respectful manner.

This is kis returning you to the spirit of the original thread........
 
Casey, I saw you surfing the message board. Merry Christmas. When you get a chance, please check your Private Messages again. I left you another message in there. Take care, and have a great day🙂

Mitch
 
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