about the word bitch......

[JoBelle]

Hmmm,

I think Lime's views on the word might be a good description. I don't challenge that it can be applied to a certain type of personality! We're entitled to think it all we want after all!

C'mon though...she might be spoiled, bratty, rude, holier-than-thou on many fronts, but sheesh!---it seems to me, albeit, in my limited knowledge, that the word bitch is frequently overused by this style of music. Why is that?

And honestly, calling her a bitch isn't so rough, but the "Eat shit and die" part seems a bit over the edge just because YOU think she's a woman who fits that description. I'm sure each person on the planet that is called a bitch is called many other things in direct contrast to that word by other people.

I've still not seen a response to one of my main question. That being...

What makes it ok to belittle a group of women by using an insulting name? Is it that rappers don't care that their behaviors are the very things we teach little kids not to do? Is it that they don't respect any woman, so they think insulting any one of their choosing is acceptable? Why is it so easily accepted to call someone that word based on gender and attitude, but god freakin' FORBID that an insulting name be used based on race and attitude! Sure, I've seen men bashing like everyone else, but it's not prevalent in any genre that I'm aware of like the insults that are hurled in the rap music I've heard. Why is that?

What would you do if someone called you mother, sister or daughter a bitch? It's their opinion, right? They are entitled, right? We're all entitled to call people whatever we want and justify it just to make a buck, right???
🙄
Jo, who genuinely does not understand why it's allowed and even encouraged. Someone explain that please!

 

[natural tickler]

Joby, let me try my best to explain it:

In the hip hop world, the word bitch is more just a name. You have to hear the song entirely to understand the word's intent. It is not always to demean a woman, but people always misunderstood its context, which is easy to do when 1)you don't listen to hip hop and 2)only seeing it from one point of view

I really hope this clears it up, if not then I will tickle some understanding

then again, like I said, Meredith Brooks does the song Bitch and nobody complains, but hip hop is always under scrutiny

I wonder why?🙄

 

[kis123]

Joby, let me try my best to explain it:

In the hip hop world, the word bitch is more just a name. You have to hear the song entirely to understand the word's intent. It is not always to demean a woman, but people always misunderstood its context, which is easy to do when 1)you don't listen to hip hop and 2)only seeing it from one point of view

I really hope this clears it up, if not then I will tickle some understanding

then again, like I said, Meredith Brooks does the song Bitch and nobody complains, but hip hop is always under scrutiny

I wonder why?🙄

Well, I'll take this to another level by saying that I don't think the word is appropriate to use on any level except for it's intended definition, when discussing a female dog. I don't care if it's hip-hop, rap, r & b, pop, tv or movies. It's a disgusting word that should never be used out of it's original context.

 

[Ayla ny]

then again, like I said, Meredith Brooks does the song Bitch and nobody complains, but hip hop is always under scrutiny

I wonder why?🙄

THAT just made sense to me.

but that is just one song... and she is talking about herself and the ways she feels she is perceived, it’s a far cry from the times it’s used as a blanket-word for the way some men perceive women. in those cases (the “this is my bitch“ crowd), it’s not just aimed at the women who like to make men feel like dorks. it’s used almost as a term of endearment for any woman they would consider sleeping with. that bothers me.

 

[JoBelle]

NT, I appreciate and understand your intent to explain, but you still didn't answer me. Sorry.

Ayla...thanks for posting that for me! THAT is my concern as well. It still doesn't address the WHY behind the use. Just that it's "that way" so accept it. Well, I don't. Who made that ok?

I don't think I have a desire to be a part of the pop "culture" that endorses such choices. I personally cannot abide that a grown man would PAY to listen to someone degrade women so regularly. Not to mention that they would then DEFEND that choice. Thank GOD the men in my life aren't like that.

Blah,
Jo

 

[drew70]

originally posted by Bella

I've been following this thread with interest; I have no desire to express my opinions, because those who would understand my POV have already spoken as I would.

Can you narrow that down for me a little? With whom would you agree, so that I might have an inkling of where you're coming from?

The rest simply wouldn't grok my thoughts, and I've no wish to attempt to make myself understood.

That's okay. Nobody groks my thoughts either. I guess the difference between you and I is I still try and express them in a way that's understood. If nothing else, it helps to develop communication and interpersonal skills.

You're saying you don't know much of anything about rap. Um, this being the case, why do I see you mention rap so often, in such an insulting manner?

Before I answer let me offer a counter-question. You said you've followed this thread with interest. You've no doubt seen Prime offer up this very concern. Um, what makes you think you'll get any different response from me than he did? Yes, I freely admit (though I don't believe I've expressed any pride about it) I know very little of rap. Tell me something Bella. If someone plays an album for you of a genre with which you are unfamiliar, and you don't like it, are you going to research that genre, listen to every album you can find before deciding you've a right to express a negative opinion about it? You don't need to listen to every Country and Western song in creation to qualify for an opinion of it, be it positive or negative. Your (and Prime's) point would be valid if I were saying what I'm saying never having heard any rap. But it's been around for 20 years or so. I've heard quite a bit of it during those 20 years, and rarely voluntarily. So given the period of time, and the different sources of rap I've had the misfortune to encounter, I think I have a sufficient random sampling to have an opinion, thank you very much. When I say I'm happily ignorant about it, I don't mean that I've never heard it, or don't know what it sounds like, or can't recognize it when it plays. It just means that no matter how much I hear, it never inspires me to search for more, or even to remember the names of those who produce it. I get the idea that no matter how many rap cuts (I can't really call them songs, as that would imply actual singing) or albums I could name drop, you still wouldn't consider me worthy of an opinion.

Those of us who enjoy this type of music (and there are many *very* positive sub-genres of it that I doubt you've heard) just shake our heads, and frankly lose a bit of respect for you, when you make derogatory comments about it and then proudly state ignorance about that which you've just cheerfully insulted.

I don't know much about Alchaeda either. I can't name one member other than Osama. I have no idea what their values are, or why they believe whatever it is they believe. Nonetheless, I will always regard that group with the utmost contempt and will cheerfully insult them at every opportunity, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. Why? Because while I don't know a lot about them, I know enough to know I don't like them. And as long as we're being frank here, Bella, I'm sure there are those who hold rap in a similar regard as I, that have lost a bit of respect for you, knowing now how you embrace such a degenerative audio medium. So by all means, shake your head. I shake mine every time I hear rap, and think to myself, "This is what people in hell are forced to hear."

Having met you, I know you're a better, more open minded person than that, it would be nice to see less aggression toward a topic about which you freely admit ignorance. Such blind hostility is beneath you.

Well, I guess we're even then, Bella, because I think it's beneath you to insinuate that because you and other people here are losing respect for me, it puts me under some obligation to soften my position. Look, it's not blind hostility. I can honestly say I wish I knew less about rap than I do. I grew up in the sixties, I remember the Beatles coming to America. I remember the Motown sound and the psychedelic rock of the late sixties. I was fascinated with all of it. I always wondered what would be the popular music of the future! Then the seventies started out with a lot of anti-war folk rock. As technology advanced, groups like Led Zeppelin started layering guitars in new and wonderful ways. Keyboards and synthesizers added wonderful new dimensions to popular music. Rock was being fuzed with other mediums like progressive jazz. It just seemed like the sky was the limit. It made me even more curious to wonder what would be the popular music of choice would be at the turn of the century. Imagine the disappointment when rap came along and settled in. It's like searching for that ever elusive pot of gold-- and finding an unflushed toilet. I picture R&B legends of the past listening to the rap of today and shaking their heads, much the way you and your hypothetical supporters are doing with regards to me. I'm as open-minded as the next person, Bella, but some things just don't need a lot of study before they receive utter rejection. If I find an old candy bar wrapper in my front yard, I'm not going to let it stay there in an attempt to be more "open-minded." I'm going to throw it in the trash. That's what rap is, to me. Trash. I find it ugly and irritating, with absolutely no esoteric qualities whatsoever. I accept your right to enjoy it. Please accept my right to kiss it off at every opportunity.

One point of this thread, from what I can tell, is how dangerous it is to make generalizations when we're all unique individuals. The same can be said for the music we enjoy.

Oh yes, it's very dangerous. It might even result in somebody shaking their head and losing respect. How will I ever recover? 🙄

 

[BellaRisa]

Drew,

"Can you narrow that down for me a little? With whom would you agree, so that I might have an inkling of where you're coming from?"

I inkled sufficiently. My personal opinions on 'bitch' and the N-word, and even on rap, are actually irrelevant for the purpose of the present discussion; I'm simply coming from the POV that giving a strong and truly negative opinion about a topic, and then admitting ignorance about that same subject, makes it difficult to take your words seriously.

"I guess the difference between you and I is I still try and express them in a way that's understood. If nothing else, it helps to develop communication and interpersonal skills."

My thoughts on this were quite understandable: insulting an entire genre, then saying you know next to nothing about it, is questionable to say the least. That's pretty clear. Furthermore, if you say in the same discussion:

"That's what rap is, to me. Trash. I find it ugly and irritating, with absolutely no esoteric qualities whatsoever"

and:

"Yes, I freely admit I know very little of rap."

It's hard to see your statements as much more than fodder for flame. Insulting something and then admitting that you don't know much about it rarely "develops communication and interpersonal skills."


"Tell me something Bella. If someone plays an album for you of a genre with which you are unfamiliar..."

Personally? I'd say I didn't like that particular album. I have to be that way, because since I married a little Irishman from Vermont over a decade ago he's been re-introducing me to music that I thought I loathed. If you'd told me I'd ever like Rush or Metallica...let's just say I've learned not to condemn so quickly. And even if I did still loathe it, I wouldn't insult him by calling it trash or other such names.


"...you still wouldn't consider me worthy of an opinion."

Not true at all, and I'll thank you not to place words into my mouth. There's enough in there already 🙂

I never said you didn't have a right to an opinion *about the music you've heard*. Frankly, I can't stand most of the 80's hair band music I've been subjected to in my lifetime. BUT, I prefer to say that I don't like 'most' of it, not *all* of it. I'd never go around saying hair metal sucks; to condemn an entire genre without giving credit to what it's fans (not necessarily you) consider it's finer points makes you sound overly biased and closed-minded. I am *not* saying you should soften your opinion, lord knows I still can't stand Ratt or Whitesnake 🙂. But I recognize that there are songs from that style that are the exception, (I like the occasional power-ballad) and I consider it wrong to lump it all together. Plus it insults fans of that music for no good reason, and I see no point in that.


"I don't know much about Alchaeda either. I can't name one member other than Osama. I have no idea what their values are, or why they believe whatever it is they believe. Nonetheless, I will always regard that group with the utmost contempt and will cheerfully insult them at every opportunity, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. Why? Because while I don't know a lot about them, I know enough to know I don't like them."

Um, we're just talking about a type of music that has it's positive and negative points. That's a far cry from murderers and religous extremists. And, I admit to knowing very little about the Alchaeda myself; if there are members who promote peace and are actually working toward that goal and aren't hurting people, then I can't condemn the entire group. This reminds me of the time I met an African-American skinhead in high school. I couldn't believe it. He sat me down and told me that *his* group had nothing to do with racism (obviously) and had an entirely different, multicultual, very positive agenda. It blew me away, and I learned not to give an opinion on entire groups until I was sure knew what I was talking about. There's often a lot more to learn, for better or worse.

"Bella, I'm sure there are those who that have lost a bit of respect for you, knowing now how you embrace such a degenerative audio medium."

I doubt it. All I said was that I enjoy the positive sub-genres of rap. And I do. Hell, I still get teary when I hear Will Smith's "Just The Two Of us", and I learned a great deal from "Edu-tainment" by KRS-1 back in the day, and Queen Latifah is still one of my heroes as a strong woman of color with a voice. And I could name many others who have good, thoughtful words to express to music. But I absolutely despise the "kill all the cops and bring me some champagne" nonsense we hear so often. On that I'm sure we agree.


"Well, I guess we're even then, Bella, because I think it's beneath you to insinuate that because you and other people here are losing respect for me, it puts me under some obligation to soften my position"

You know I don't insinuate, I say what I mean. You have no 'obligation'; I've known you long enough to know that you have your own mind no matter what anyone says, and it was *not* my intention to pressure you to feel differently. But, I do think it cuts your credibility as a fine debater (which you are) when you make blanket statements (bad enough) and then state blissful ignorance about said topic(!).



"Look, it's not blind hostility..."

I understand where you're coming from. But, when you say that you don't know much of anything about the subject you're calling trash, that indicates major blindness.


"I can honestly say I wish I knew less about rap than I do...That's what rap is, to me. Trash. I find it ugly and irritating, with absolutely no esoteric qualities whatsoever. I accept your right to enjoy it. Please accept my right to kiss it off at every opportunity"

You most definitely have that right. I'm just saying it's less hostile and more productive to give your opinion on what you've heard. Not the entire genre, and that there is a difference between saying you don't like something and calling it trash.

See you at NEST,

Bella

 

[primetime]

Drew, once again i ask. you can have your opinion of rap, that's fine. BUT, how can you possibly tell me what certain lyrics mean if you dont listen to the stuff to understand what the artists are talking about? first of all, read ALL the lyrics of the song. all you did was take one excerpt and have a way off interpretation of what they mean. i tell you what they mean, then you disagree and tell me what they really mean, even though you have no clue on what the artist is trying to say. you can have your negative opinion, as narrow minded as it is, but dont tell me or other rap fans what their lyrics mean, ESPECIALLY if you are not "in tune" to what the artists are trying to convey. again, that is like a non football fan telling a football diehard how the game is played.

now, as for the word "bitch". i can see how some people find it hostile, but the topic of this post was to explain WHY rap artists use the word. you can hate the word, you can hate the fact that people use it, my only thing was trying to explain WHY they use the word and to clear up a common mistake in thinking rap artists in particular are saying EVERY woman is a bitch. does it make it right? that is a matter of opinion. but, it is unfair to characterize rap as women haters. like Natural Tickler said, how come there is a song called "Bitch" by Meredith Brooks that no one is crying about, but rap artists are singled out? if you dont like rap, fine, that's your taste in music. but it is unfair to characterize all of rap as crap. remember the saying, "to each his own"? i wont buy certain kinds of music, but i am not going to say the entire genre is crap. to bad mouth it only makes someone look very narrow minded......

 

[JoBelle]

🙄 The "WHY" behind something is usually accompanied by other things. For example... who gives validation to it? In this case, it's the listener. There is a "WHY" behind the use of all insults. All derogatory comments are born and used for a damn-good-WHY in the eyes of the people who use them. (Racists, homophones, and politicians all come to mind.)

Who cares why THEY use it? It's wrong for all of them. To me, calling a woman a bitch is no worse than any other insult that someone can apply to another person whether they approve of them or not.

As far as the one song that you keep mentioning with "bitch" in it....can you tell me how many rap songs have that or comparable "lyrics?" It's the proportion that makes people think it...not the genre! There are actually some rap songs I like, but due to the extremely high number of "hater" songs that insult and threaten...I put a lid on all of it.

I was once called a "fucking-white-bitch" by a self-proclaimed "old nigger" and never really got over it for a couple of reasons!!! I found BOTH term offensive and disgusting. I think most people should! To say you can use one insult but not another is just sad...sad....sad. How can it be justified???????!?!!?!?

I should really not come back to this thread...it makes my teeth ache!

Jo

 

[Limeoutsider]

Artist: D12
Album: D12 World
Song: Bitch

Now we got something for the bitchess!!!


[Eminem - Intro]
Bitches always be all... gigglin and shit. (come on BITCH)
but they get mad when there favorite song dont come on in the club.
Catch an attitude and shit
We got one for them, goes like this. . .


[Eminem]
We wrote a song for the hoes
You like to hear? here it goes
A little somethin you probably won't hear on your radio
So when it comes on in the club it's one that everyone knows
And if I'm talking to fast it just means you're listening to slow
And if you listen a little faster maybe you'll catch up, Bitch
Jew Ja Jaw Jaw Da Dun Jew Ja
You just made me mess up, Bitch
Bleeb Blab Blah Blah Blah Blah
It don't matter, I'm just blabbering
Like you understand what I'm saying Anyway
I'm just traveling In one ear and I'm out the other
You're so fuckin drunk all you hear is the Beat da beat
I could be sayin anything Get ya ass on the floor
Wear the same pants that you wore from the day before
Baby and shake that ass like a *****


[Eminem + Kon Artis - Chorus]
Yeah i'm talkin to you BITCH (get up and dance bitch)
wiggle that ass BITCH (yeah thats it. yeah I called you a bitch)BITCH
what you going to do about it BITCH?
sit there and cry like a little BITCH? BITCH.


get up and dance BITCH (wiggle that ass bitch)
you little trash BITCH (yeah thats it. yeah i called you a trash bitch)
not trailer trash SWITCH
take the person you with and exchange partners


[Kuniva]
tell me that it aint no hangin, and fuck callin home
until you look at me before you answer the phone
when i flee, your ass can get naked and be as free
as you wanna be freak
but i'm takin the key with me.
you aint gonna get shit, so dont even ask
disrespect my wishes, i'll beat your ass
watch me comin home floor eatin half of your doggy bag
and I leave laughin, while you callin me on the rag
I'm the type that might cut off the lights when I hit
and before she cut them on, Kuniva already SWITCHED
your ass aint even ridin with Swift unless your goin
when I'm done, I throw you out and ask you where you goin'.


[Bizarre]
Hoe aint the only thing you call a girl
Slut, Tramp, (oh, how you doin sir?)
ever since i was 8, i been startin to hate
I said fuck the Hoe's, started eatin cheese cake
scrambled eggs and steak, strawberrys and grapes
damn that sounds great, hold on wait (Bizzy)
ok, back to the bitches, wash the dishes after that
give me stitches. a fuckin half Indian chick, suck my dick
this time tommorow, I wont remember shit
got respect for a player, got on snoop gators
and they aint now and laters bitch.


[Chorus]


[Kuniva + Kon Artis]
[Hey baby whats up with you?]
Aiiyo your man here with you?
nah, you single, I can tell [you came with them hoes didnt you?]
no he mean friends girl, excuse him, it's the liquor
[aiiyo lets get this party crackin these bitches ain't got bitches]
now you know he didnt mean that (come on you seen that)
[she all whinin' and shit, get this bitch a kleenex]
(what did he say?)
Nothin, he said you seem stressed
[naw, you gots a big butt]
and you wearin your nice dress(cuz i was gonna say)
[you wasn't gonna say shit]
(excuse me?)
he said Michael Jackson jus got another face lift
[dumb hoe]
(oh,. . .nigga!)
no, gumbo, he wanna cook it for you tonight
[bitch, what up though jus fuck for a buck, do somethin strange for change,
maybe holla for a dolla, just hop in the range]
Background: shut up nigga, shut the fuck up!
(fuck both yall niggas)
see I was tryin to be polite, stank ass trick [oh somebody jackin' off tonight].


[Proof]
Are you a bitch so dont choke
I say the same to my mama.
I got Christina, Britney with me,
shit, we bangin Madonna.
watch her strip you on that 10 bitch ain't got change for a dollar
blow your tounge and give kiss on your mouth you came with a condom
quick out is the motto and jus swallow breathe,
swallow breathe, now swallow these E's
I know you moca lotti mommys wont get down on your knees
you wont some money honey damn you must be outta your weave
hit the telly fuck her belly you aint gotta go weak
plus you wanna be a mattie you need a lot of more sleep
I'm a pimp bitch dont be shy, show me them big tits
your lipstick, I want it smeared all on my limp dick
for instance, busting nuts is only my interest
so princess, don't get your feelings hurt cuz men just
party and bullshit 'til she gargle and swallow my dick
I'm takin the train to Spain, don't bother callin' bitch.


[Chorus]


[Outro]
Yeah, you heard me bitch.
did i stu-stu-studder, stupid? you aint listein to the words of this song anyways.
All you do is listen to the beats with your dumbass (BITCH).
dancin, tryin to get a nigga money in the club
with your stupid manuper self.
I was talkin bout you Do-do
you, you dumb bitch. YOU!
The one that want a drink but dont want to pay for it
spend all the money you make all week on that dress
and I spill a drink on it, actin like I'm drunk when I'm not.
I'M JUST TRYIN TO FUCK
I'M JUS TRYIN TO FUCK BITCH!


(D-Twizzy, YEah. Bitch, bitch, bitch.)

 

[lt21]

i think people are way too sensitive here.....so what if he called you a white bitch....if your white (im assuming you are cuz i dont know you 🙂....then hes stating a fact....and if you know your not a bitch then who cares...hes just an asshole....people get all bent out of shape over insults and all its gonna do is give you high blood pressure.....and a vibe im getting from alot of posts is the term should never be used cuz its degrading to women...NO ITS NOT...its degrading to the woman (singular) that it was said too...and yes there are a couple bitches out there just like there are a couple asshole guys....but to say you cant say something bad about one girl is stupid and hypocritcal...i cant count the number of times ive heard girls say guys are assholes...and if your a girl youll never convince me that you havent said it at least once in your life....it doesnt bother me though( generally theyll say except me afterwords) but none the less.....people need to stop taking little things too heart....it just makes life more difficult