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Alpha males?

billylee

TMF Poster
Joined
May 19, 2003
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When I went to Nest the last couple of years I enjoyed watching the m/f tickling (and of course, f/f) but was uncomfortable participating. I certainly would have enjoyed doing m/f but held back just the same... I simply wanted to avoid feeling like the cliche of an older man lurking after younger women. Now m/f is more appealing after I read a series on "How to be an Alpha Male," a tongue in cheek article on a website called Halley's Comment. This is a woman who enjoys the idea of alpha males in society - she thinks men should WANT To be alpha and not apologize for it.

Still, the alpha male idea is itself a cliche - isn't it?
 
Alpha males...get better jobs, make more money, work less, have more friends, more sex...ect ect while the "beta male" goes without. Being beta is synonymous with being a loser....they lose out on alot of fun and good things that life can offer. Forget cliches...caring about them is so cliche. Being alpha is not inherently bad...but it can end up upsetting people...so apologize when you're in the wrong. Jumping in on the fun at NEST is not hurting anyone so go have a blast like everyone else is.
GQguy
 
billylee said:
Still, the alpha male idea is itself a cliche - isn't it?

The term "alpha male" is mostly from primates research. It has been speculated that apes have similar behaviour to humans, and in many ways they do. But I've read recently that new research shows that there are also fundamental differences -- chimpanzees and the likes seem to be unable to get "rid off" a dictator; the weak stay weak, unless one grows strong enough to challenge the alpha male. Humans in contrast seem to solve problems rather by cooperation. It has been speculated that spoken language is a major force in this development. I don't have any references now but the interested could probably look it up via Google. The research has also shown that humans seem to be inherently more peaceful than other, less developed monkeys, which is an astonishing fact, considering the many wars and violence that is still raging today. But who knows what the situation would be if chimps had tanks? :shock:
 
GQguy said:
Alpha males...get better jobs, make more money, work less, have more friends, more sex...ect ect while the "beta male" goes without. Being beta is synonymous with being a loser....they lose out on alot of fun and good things that life can offer. Forget cliches...caring about them is so cliche. Being alpha is not inherently bad...but it can end up upsetting people...so apologize when you're in the wrong. Jumping in on the fun at NEST is not hurting anyone so go have a blast like everyone else is.
GQguy

Well said GQ.
 
Not a cliche at all

Having worked as bouncer in numerous singles bars, both up and down scale, there was one thing I observed across the socio-economic spectrum;
The guys who got the most attention from the women and girls, and had the most sucess with them, were not the best looking, the seemingly wealthiest or the most humorous. It was the ones who recieved the most respect and deference from the other guys; in other words, the dominant alpha males!

The discrepancies between human and other primate behaviors are a major problem for the anthropology profession; here's what I think the answer is (from a study I did a few years ago)
My take on the origins of DS goes to an ongoing problem in Paleoanthropolgy; why is it so consistently difficult for professionals in that field to find analogues to human behavior patterns in other primates? The answer is that they are ignoring a major fact of evolutionary biology; the genetically selected behaviors any animal species keeps and passes on to future generations are determined primarily by the ecological niche that species occupies in its environment.

The pretribal, indeed precultural human animal occupied an ecological niche called 'cursorial hunter'. No other primate has ever occupied a niche even remotely similar, hence the lack of analogous behavior patterns. The only other species to occupy that niche in the history of this planet have been Wolves and Feral Dogs.

If one looks at the behavior patterns found in Wolf and Dog packs, EVERYTHING you see has close analogies in human behavior patterns!
Wolf packs have dominant Alpha males, secondary Beta males and submissive Gamma males. The female Wolves have their own, separate dominance order. In general, there is one chief dominant Pack Alpha and one or more Deta lieutenants, totaling one third of the male adults in the pack. All the females and all theGamma males are submissive to the Alphas and Betas. The Gammas are submissive to the females.

Anyone familiar with the scene has noticed, and perhaps wondered why, submissives seem to outnumber dominants in all categories. Straight, Gay, Bi, Male, Female, there are always more subs than doms. It's a holdover from a time when the survival of the species was furthered by such patterns of subordination. In any survival-critical emergency, there had to be someone in charge, whose orders would be obeyed without question.

Another pattern which ensured the strongest possible offspring was that the females simply would not mate with the Gamma males, who often engaged in homosexual relationships to relieve their needs. This is seen in Wolf and Dog packs today. This was biologically engineered into our genetic makeup by evolution, and explains why even the most liberated woman feels attracted to a dominant man, while even the most liberated man feels the need for some degree of submissiveness from his woman.

The fact is, of course, that modern technological society has made these patterns of D & S totally unnecessary, which is why I prefer D & S ONLY in the bedroom. The fact we no longer need these patterns does not cause them to automatically go away, for two reasons.

First, it takes about 100,000 years for evolution to effect any major change in a species, and conditions which made male dominance/female submission no longer a survival advantage are less than 100 years old IN THIS COUNTRY. In many parts of the world, Male D/female S is still a powerful survival advantage.

Second, an evolved trait does not evolve away just because it is not an advantage anymore. Look at our tail bones and appendixes. To evolve away, a trait must become a significant disadvantage, so that those who do NOT have it are much more likely to survive and have children than those who do.
That has not happened with D & S, in fact quite the contrary.

This all relates to tickling too. Among Wolves and Dogs, in order to resolve dominance disputes without actual injury to a valuable pack member, they have evolved a submission behavior which turns off further aggression by the dominant victor like throwing a switch; flipping onto the back and exposing the vitals to the dominant animal. The dominant responds by very lightly touching the tips of it's fangs to the throat or belly of the submissive, symbolizing that the dominant could have fatally injured the submissive but chose not to.

In humans, the analogous behavior is tickling. If you look at all the places on the human body that are usually ticklish, they are all areas where an injury would be fatal to an animal whose survival depended on running with a hunting pack, or take away it's ability to successfully have/rear offspring.
Toes/soles of feet-ability to run
backs of knees/kneecaps-ability to run
inner thighs-femoral artery (if it is cut, the individual bleeds to death in 30 seconds)
backs of thighs-hamstring tendon
hips-pelvic joints
lower belly-reproductive organs
ribs/sides-all the major organs in the body trunk
underarms-major nerves and arteries
neck/throat/under chin-major nerves and arteries/windpipe
breasts(women)-ability to feed newborns.

This is why for a human to allow another to tickle/tease them is a profoundly submissive act, and to choose to take advantage of that permission is a profoundly dominant act. One thing makes this expression of deep submission and dominance different for humans than dogs or wolves.

While wolves are sexually active only once a year when the females come into heat and their females activate the sex drives of the males, and for dogs it's about every month and a half, humans alone are sexually active 24/7/365 while physically capable. For this reason, expressions of dominance and submission among humans tend to take on sexual overtones.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.
 
Mastertank......that was pretty awesome. I actually learned something. I like your take on what tickling represents.
GQguy
 
We hesitate to think of alpha males; it seems so 1950's. The truth is women and men both feel more comfortable around a man who is in control of himself: unapologetic, unhesitating. He is polite not because he is weak, but because he refuses to react to whatever nuisance floats by. He owns his emotions, he owns his time, he owns the very way he walks and speaks. Look at the TMF personals and you will find as many people seeking lers as there are seeking lees. In church, in university, at work, we always feel more comfortable knowing someone is in charge. Some of us want to be extra-polite, extra cautious, but that just irritates everyone, ESPECIALLY women.
 
interesting...

I do consider myself a feminist but LOVE the alpha males in my life . What does that make me? :manicd:
XOXO

commander said:
We hesitate to think of alpha males; it seems so 1950's. The truth is women and men both feel more comfortable around a man who is in control of himself: unapologetic, unhesitating. He is polite not because he is weak, but because he refuses to react to whatever nuisance floats by. He owns his emotions, he owns his time, he owns the very way he walks and speaks. Look at the TMF personals and you will find as many people seeking lers as there are seeking lees. In church, in university, at work, we always feel more comfortable knowing someone is in charge. Some of us want to be extra-polite, extra cautious, but that just irritates everyone, ESPECIALLY women.
 
Mastertank1 said:
Having worked as bouncer in numerous singles bars, both up and down scale, there was one thing I observed across the socio-economic spectrum;
The guys who got the most attention from t....lotsofstufftoread....humans alone are sexually active 24/7/365 while physically capable. For this reason, expressions of dominance and submission among humans tend to take on sexual overtones.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.

Jeezus Fucking Krist, dude, you just made my WEEK! That was an AWESOME READ!

Where can I find more stuff like this?

*goes and reads his psychology book*
 
A couple years after

ViperGTS said:
Jeezus Fucking Krist, dude, you just made my WEEK! That was an AWESOME READ!

Where can I find more stuff like this?

*goes and reads his psychology book*

Hi Viper;
A couple years after I first wrote this Desmond Morris, author of The Naked Ape and other books about anthropology wrote a book explaining the great affinity between humans and dogs. I don't recall the title exactly. I do recall that he confirmed everything I said above, and theorized that the reason humans and dogs get along is because both were once pack hunters, and now relate to each other as members of the same pack. Like, to your dog, you're the pack alpha leader, and he or she is a beta or a gamma. Anyhoo, Morris expanded on my ideas and went into way more detail than I did.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.
 
Probably

steph said:
I do consider myself a feminist but LOVE the alpha males in my life . What does that make me? :manicd:
XOXO
Dear Countess; 😛
It probably makes you an alpha or beta female. :wow:
See my post above in this thread.
I, of course, am a pack alpha: the leader of the pack. :dogpile:
(Bet you didn't know Mark IV tanks ran in packs!) :Hyrdrogen
The kitchy koo kreature is stalking you, Steph. :firedevil

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.
 
Hee!

You're so cute for this honey... :smilelove
XOXO

Mastertank1 said:
Dear Countess; 😛
It probably makes you an alpha or beta female. :wow:
See my post above in this thread.
I, of course, am a pack alpha: the leader of the pack. :dogpile:
(Bet you didn't know Mark IV tanks ran in packs!) :Hyrdrogen
The kitchy koo kreature is stalking you, Steph. :firedevil

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.
 
Mastertank1 said:
Hi Viper;
A couple years after I first wrote this Desmond Morris, author of The Naked Ape and other books about anthropology wrote a book explaining the great affinity between humans and dogs. I don't recall the title exactly. I do recall that he confirmed everything I said above, and theorized that the reason humans and dogs get along is because both were once pack hunters, and now relate to each other as members of the same pack. Like, to your dog, you're the pack alpha leader, and he or she is a beta or a gamma. Anyhoo, Morris expanded on my ideas and went into way more detail than I did.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.

I have always noticed this behaviour is dogs, but never recognized it as you put it. When I go to my mother's house, my little springer spaniel flip out in happiness, but only when I am in a good mood. Baron, who is IrishGirl's Germap Shepherd, loves to play and fight with me, but as soon as he goes over the line and I get upset, he dissapears with his tail down.

It makes me proud that we've domesticated the species, for the most part. They are a HELL of a companion.
 
Much more.

maryallison said:
I still don't get it...is it about sexual dominance or just acting confident?
Dear Maryallison;

Being a true Alpha male is about much more than just acting confident, and much more than just sexual dominance. A real alpha is actually confident, and is not just a dominant to his sub, but also a protector and guide.
He does not just dominate his sub, he also nurtures her mind and her spirit and protects her against the cruelties of the world, and for this she repays him with her trust and submission.
It's been that way with every relationship I've ever had.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.
 
Sorry, pal, you're off the mark.

It's true that an Alpha male is actually confident, not just acting that way, but it has little to do with dom/sub. It's in how we dress, how we react to people's requests, how long we put up with sales calls before we hang up on them. It is 24/7. With a woman, it begins the minute we meet them: if we want to ask them out, then its measured in how long it takes to do the asking; if they are married, it's in how much we flirt without crossing the line. Maryallison is a bit right in saying it's "acting" confident, because we can play the part of an Alpha as training to become one.
 
Actually, no, I'm not.

commander said:
Sorry, pal, you're off the mark.

It's true that an Alpha male is actually confident, not just acting that way, but it has little to do with dom/sub. It's in how we dress, how we react to people's requests, how long we put up with sales calls before we hang up on them. It is 24/7. With a woman, it begins the minute we meet them: if we want to ask them out, then its measured in how long it takes to do the asking; if they are married, it's in how much we flirt without crossing the line. Maryallison is a bit right in saying it's "acting" confident, because we can play the part of an Alpha as training to become one.

What you're describing is a beta, not an alpha. Yeah, training to eventully try to become an alpha, but not there yet, although already stepped up from gamma.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by you who hear no music.
 
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