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Another great has left us

The greatest fighter, the master of psychology, and the icon of resistance to war. Muhammad Ali, rest in peace.
 
Just heard about this.

Truly saddened about Mr Ali's passing. He was The Greatest fighter of all time.

R.I.P. Mr Ali.
 
FANTASTIC documentary about the first Ali-Frazier fight.....so happy it's on You Tube.....


The other must-see documentary is "When We Were Kings" about the Ali-Foreman fight, an amazing film. (not on You Tube)
 
Heard about this on the way to work today, just couldn't believe it. There is an ESPN documentary on boxing that is very good and chronicles Ali's life. A lot of things I didn't know. I was young during his reign and only knew what I read of him.

One moment that had tears running down my cheeks that I did see live was when he lit the cauldron for the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. I watched a replay of that today and had the same reaction.

The world has lost not only a great sportsman and entertainer, but a wonderful human being. RIP Greatest of all time.

Barbershopman
 
I'm old enough to remember the Ali-Frazier fight, the Rumble in the Jungle and many more. An American icon is gone. Sad that his last years were plagued with health problems. R.I.P.
 

Another great? Eh.... Idk about that.

His mentor was Malcom X, leader of the Racist (Anti-white) terrorist group, Nation of Islam. Ali Looked up to a guy who believed whites were inferior to blacks, and encouraged black Muslim Americans to engage in anti-white violence.

Yeah... He was good boxer and all... But he had waayyyy too many anti-American and anti-white views for me to consider him a respectable person.
Plus he used his religion to try and get out of his patriotic duty of fighting in war, by skipping out on the draft.

He never denounced black on white violence, nor did he denounce Malcom X' terrorist ideology.


 
Well first off, let's address your first hilarious pronouncement about whether or not Ali was one of the greats:


Another great? Eh.... Idk about that.

Yeah... He was good boxer and all...

...."idk about that." yeah, that's right...you obviously don't! For one thing, he was not a "good" boxer, he was a GREAT boxer, possibly the greatest, so right off....you're hanging a sign around your neck that says "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Your understanding of Malcom X, and definitely The Vietnam War, is even more hilarious (and, typically, simplistic)! But of course it is: you're an ideologue! The worst kind! If you think black people in this country - especially then - were going to clap hands and say "oh, thank you America!", you need to have your head checked. Your profile says you're a 23-year old....and though not all 23-year olds are the same - it would help explain why your understanding of American history (and Ali!) is so one-dimensional, dim and dripping with right-wing cultspeak.

Apparently the only people who are allowed to (incessantly) complain about America are white militants, Tea Partiers, and ring-wing media junkies.

(Also, A.V., you need to work on your English skills, what words get capitalized, and what words don't. You describe yourself as "intelligent" in your profile, fair enough, but it's not particulary evident here, kid.)
 
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Another great? Eh.... Idk about that.

His mentor was Malcom X, leader of the Racist (Anti-white) terrorist group, Nation of Islam. Ali Looked up to a guy who believed whites were inferior to blacks, and encouraged black Muslim Americans to engage in anti-white violence.

Yeah... He was good boxer and all... But he had waayyyy too many anti-American and anti-white views for me to consider him a respectable person.
Plus he used his religion to try and get out of his patriotic duty of fighting in war, by skipping out on the draft.

He never denounced black on white violence, nor did he denounce Malcom X' terrorist ideology.


Frankly, in a post that has so many things wrong, I'm impressed you managed to spell Ali's name correctly.
It seems your grasp of history, sports, and race relations in the U.S. is as solid as your grasp of human sexuality and neuroscience.

By the way, speaking of "patriotic duty"...when did you serve?
 
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Ali was a fantastic boxer, one of the best, and much more admirable than "my" generation's icons like Mike Tyson. I am not a boxing fan (I prefer MMA), but my working-class father is, and he taped some of Ali's most outstanding fights. I watched them all while growing up, and I was always amazed by his technique. Really amazed, and I am not even that much into boxing to begin with.

But there is definitely a darker side to him, no pun intended. I can understand his reasons for draft-dodging in the highly sensitive context of the civil rights movement. I mean when people call you things like nigger and stuff all day, and try to undermine your rights as a citizen (some proponents of segregationist policies tried to prevent the blacks to vote, among other things). In this situation it makes sense if you are not too keen to defend your country, when said country treats you so badly.

But then what would he say to all the black people who fought and died for the motherland before him? Should they have abstained? Were they wrong to go fight against Nazism or global Communism? I think a great deal of people around the world can be grateful that not all blacks dodged draft like he did, wore the US army uniform with pride, and earned on the battlefield the respect of their white mates that was denied to them back home. Ali made a choice, and it is his honor to have stood by it his whole life and never denounced it, all the while taking his punishment like a man. But in my own humble opinion, that was the wrong one, especially as black activist. The wrong example to give the young blacks who looked up to him.

Also, Malcolm X... Whatever way you put it, that guy was the head of a dangerous and vindictive organization that was responsible for the brutal murder of other Americans. If tomorrow a white boxer presents the leader of groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nation as his mentor, you can be sure any athletic commission won't think twice before banning him for life, and rightfully so in my opinion. It was a poor choice of a mentor, to say the least.

Psychological warfare is part of sports, and Ali was a master at it. At times though, he went too far. For the bout in Kinshasa, he had used the race card a little bit too outrageously in my opinion, calling Foreman "white", "Uncle Tom" and other racists epithets. I mean, racism is wrong, regardless of your skin color or the victim's own. It was just plain wrong.

With all that being said, I'll still raise a glass for him. One of the truly best, and a complex, fascinating character. But I see no reason why we should not be critical of his most controversial aspects.
 
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Ali was a fantastic boxer, one of the best, and much more admirable than "my" generation's icons like Mike Tyson. I am not a boxing fan (I prefer MMA), but my working-class father is, and he taped some of Ali's most outstanding fights. I watched them all while growing up, and I was always amazed by his technique. Really amazed, and I am not even that much into boxing to begin with.

But there is definitely a darker side to him, no pun intended. I can understand his reasons for draft-dodging in the highly sensitive context of the civil rights movement. I mean when people call you things like nigger and stuff all day, and try to undermine your rights as a citizen (some proponents of segregationist policies tried to prevent the blacks to vote, among other things). In this situation it makes sense if you are not too keen to defend your country, when said country treats you so badly.

But then what would he say to all the black people who fought and died for the motherland before him? Should they have abstained? Were they wrong to go fight against Nazism or global Communism? I think a great deal of people around the world can be grateful that not all blacks dodged draft like he did, wore the US army uniform with pride, and earned on the battlefield the respect of their white mates that was denied to them back home. Ali made a choice, and it is his honor to have stood by it his whole life and never denounced it, all the while taking his punishment like a man. But in my own humble opinion, that was the wrong one, especially as black activist. The wrong example to give the young blacks who looked up to him.

Also, Malcolm X... Whatever way you put it, that guy was the head of a dangerous and vindictive organization that was responsible for the brutal murder of other Americans. If tomorrow a white boxer presents the leader of groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nation as his mentor, you can be sure any athletic commission won't think twice before banning him for life, and rightfully so in my opinion. It was a poor choice of a mentor, to say the least.

Psychological warfare is part of sports, and Ali was a master at it. At times though, he went too far. For the bout in Kinshasa, he had used the race card a little bit too outrageously in my opinion, calling Foreman "white", "Uncle Tom" and other racists epithets. I mean, racism is wrong, regardless of your skin color or the victim's own. It was just plain wrong.

With all that being said, I'll still raise a glass for him. One of the truly best, and a complex, fascinating character. But I see no reason why we should not be critical of his most controversial aspects.

Tenebrae, bravo for such an articulate post and you make some fair points.

I never said Ali was perfect, nor did I say he didn't have contradictions....he was a man. A human being. In the documentary above, it goes into great length about his taunting of Frazier (which was worse than how he spoke of Foreman). Being critical of him is fine. DISMISSING him is not fine.

Regarding dodging the draft, to compare Vietnam to fighting the Nazis, or any other war, is off the mark. Vietnam was not an immediate threat to the U.S., and black people were disproportionately the ones being sent over to fight. Regarding Malcom X and the Nation of Islam (which Malcom X left), we are looking at this perspective of hindsight. From the perspective of a black man in 1963, Malcom X and the Nation of Islam was the only organization that seemed to be "standing up" to rampant civil rights abuses that had been going (still goes on) since the beginning of the country. And that were ramping up during the 20th century, after the KKK reconstituted itself around the time of the first World War. If it put fear in the hearts of white people? Good! Let them see black anger for themselves, palpable and completely justified. This is why the appeal of Malcom X (and Ali) continues to this day.

The difference between a white racist and a black racist is the black racist at least has reason to be angry, distrustful and fearful of the white man. Maybe people should reacquaint themselves with Emmett Till, with the four little girls bombed in the Alabama church, with the three civil rights workers killed in Mississippi in the summer of '64 and a host of other incidents that make you want to vomit your guts out just to hear about them.......that's the climate in which Malcom X, the Nation of Islam, and Muhammed Ali came up. At what point do you say "we're not going to take it any more?"

Ali was a one and only. A character, as you say, a character in the great mosaic of American characters of the 20th century. He was quintessentially American (I say that to those who make him to be some kind of traitor). We haven't even talked about his awesome word skills or his sense of humor! He was a great, great champion. A hero. He was a boxer, not a statesman.

But if there ever WAS going to be a boxer that was also a statesman.....Ali was the guy. And THAT is why we call him the greatest.

I'm going to miss him.
 
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First and foremost, thank you for not burning me alive 😉 I really hesitated before hitting "send" as I was afraid that a foreigner's point of view on a sensitive moment of American history may not be very well received.

This is an homage to Ali, so I am not going to derail this thread by conjuring historical facts ad nauseam. However, in times such as these, I have to voice my disagreement: no, terrorism is never, and I mean never the solution. While I can understand the hate a black person may feel, it is no justification for assaulting people, setting bombs, destroying property, etc... No, the Nation of Islam, while undoubtedly supported by a part of the African-American community, was not the sole organization fighting for equality. The Catholic Church, most protestant organizations (Martin Luther King Jr being its most prominent minister), Hollywood (Charlton Eston, Frank Sinatra, Paul Newman, so many...), foremost politicians, magistrates, policemen, soldiers, entrepreneurs, etc... in all layers of society were vocal in their defense of equal rights. They were white, black, latinos, asians, and all contributed to the end of segregation. I have read Malcolm X, as well as more recent proponents of the supremacy of the Black Race as they call it; it is more or less the same wacko ideas that were defended by the proponents of the superiority of the Aryan Race, mixed with enough neo-marxist garbage to get funding from Moscow. Oh and the same Islamic fundamentalism that sent two planes crashing into the World Trade Center. I cannot condone such an ideology, no matter how just the cause may seem. I simply cannot.

That does not mean one should not fight for one's rights. In a way, Ali embodied that fight, because he was there, fighting in the most literal sense of the term. His rhetoric gave people a sense that he was not just fighting against his opponents; he was fighting a system, with his fists, sort of. Hence his appeal, and beyond the race issue. My father was as white as one could be, but he admired the way that this American man was standing by his beliefs, accepting his ban like a man for dodging the draft. He also admired his modest origins, and like you said, his sense of humor.

But racism... if anything, responding to racism with racism is a godsend to the proponents of separation, the ones that defend, on either side of the fence, that blacks and whites cannot live together. Everybody remembers "I have a dream", but a lot of people seem to forget the rest of the sentence: "I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood." In other words, Martin Luther King Jr was calling for coexistence, at the same table, while Malcolm X was all for burning the white people's table down so that he could set a bigger one upon the ashes for his black family. Shame a great guy like Ali supported him, although once again you are right when you say the contest was extreme, and the oppression suffered by the blacks was an every day, bitter reality.

Finally, it pains me to say that I also think you are off the mark about Viêt-Nam. The USA were fighting the exact same totalitarian oppression that they had fought in Europe and in Korea. It is the genius of the Viêt propaganda machine to have turned the American public opinion against itself, and apparently it still has lasting effects. The goal of the 1944 landing in Europe was not to as much to defeat Hitler (Stalin had done 80% of the job already) as it was to protect the Western European nations (mine, especially), from the Red Army. Without the US army, Stalin would have swept across the whole of Europe instead of half of it, and America may not have won the Cold War in the end. Same in Korea. Same in Viêt-Nam. Same in Latin America. Prevent the enemy to expand its influence to the detriment of the USA's.
 
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First and foremost, thank you for not burning me alive 😉 I really hesitated before hitting "send" as I was afraid that a foreigner's point of view on a sensitive moment of American history may not be very well received.

This is an homage to Ali, so I am not going to derail this thread by conjuring historical facts ad nauseam. However, in times such as these, I have to voice my disagreement: no, terrorism is never, and I mean never the solution. While I can understand the hate a black person may feel, it is no justification for assaulting people, setting bombs, destroying property, etc... No, the Nation of Islam, while undoubtedly supported by a part of the African-American community, was not the sole organization fighting for equality. The Catholic Church, most protestant organizations (Martin Luther King Jr being its most prominent minister), Hollywood (Charlton Eston, Frank Sinatra, Paul Newman, so many...), foremost politicians, magistrates, policemen, soldiers, entrepreneurs, etc... in all layers of society were vocal in their defense of equal rights. They were white, black, latinos, asians, and all contributed to the end of segregation. I have read Malcolm X, as well as more recent proponents of the supremacy of the Black Race as they call it; it is more or less the same wacko ideas that were defended by the proponents of the superiority of the Aryan Race, mixed with enough neo-marxist garbage to get funding from Moscow. Oh and the same Islamic fundamentalism that sent two planes crashing into the World Trade Center. I cannot condone such an ideology, no matter how just the cause may seem. I simply cannot.

That does not mean one should not fight for one's rights. In a way, Ali embodied that fight, because he was there, fighting in the most literal sense of the term. His rhetoric gave people a sense that he was not just fighting against his opponents; he was fighting a system, with his fists, sort of. Hence his appeal, and beyond the race issue. My father was as white as one could be, but he admired the way that this American man was standing by his beliefs, accepting his ban like a man for dodging the draft. He also admired his modest origins, and like you said, his sense of humor.

But racism... if anything, responding to racism with racism is a godsend to the proponents of separation, the ones that defend, on either side of the fence, that blacks and whites cannot live together. Everybody remembers "I have a dream", but a lot of people seem to forget the rest of the sentence: "I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood." In other words, Martin Luther King Jr was calling for coexistence, at the same table, while Malcolm X was all for burning the white people's table down so that he could set a bigger one upon the ashes for his black family. Shame a great guy like Ali supported him, although once again you are right when you say the contest was extreme, and the oppression suffered by the blacks was an every day, bitter reality.

Finally, it pains me to say that I think you are dead wrong about Viêt-Nam. The USA were fighting the exact same totalitarian oppression that they had fought in Europe and in Korea. It is the genius of the Viêt propaganda machine to have turned the American public opinion against itself, and apparently it still has lasting effects. The goal of the 1944 landing in Europe was not to as much to defeat Hitler (Stalin had done 80% of the job already) as it was to protect the Western European nations (mine, especially), from the Red Army. Without the US army, Stalin would have swept across the whole of Europe instead of half of it, and America may not have won the Cold War in the end. Same in Korea. Same in Viêt-Nam. Same in Latin America. Prevent the enemy to expand its influence to the detriment of the USA's.

Tenebrae, as you say, perhaps this isn't the thread to go off on tangents about the very complicated Vietnam War, as I'm sure yourself understand being French. I resent that you presume to know what forms my opinon about the Vietnam War, but I'll let that go! We'll agree to disagree.

Keeping it pertinent to Ali......the fact is, Tenebrae, that whites could get out of the draft alot easier than blacks. For a variety of reasons. And so it was disporportinately black people - the most-marginalized and terrorized part of the population - who had to go and do the fighting, and the dying, and the returning to society wounded or traumatized, and marginalized again. And that is why Ali refused to go. And good for him. I mean, we're talking two years or so after the Voting Rights Act of 1965! You act like these are just "regular citizens" who had a stake and a voice in the political process all along! They hadn't even been able to vote!

You are correct; the Nation of Islam was not the only organization fighting racism, and I almost included that in my original post. Yes, there was Martin Luther King. But it was Malcom X whose message was to fight back. And, as a boxer, I can understand how that point of view would resonate. Or just as an angry human being upon whom disgusting acts of injustice have been perpertrated. Again: it's easy for you and I to idly discuss this; they have to live it. And saying "Enough is enough......or else!" is as valid a response as "turn the other cheek, love thy enemy...and get your head bashed in".

I don't expect boxers to be perfect human beings. Fighting itself....I hate! I'm Athenian, not Spartan! But ultimately all of the "faults" in a "great".... they're irrelevant. Wagner was a proto-Nazi! But he was a great composer! We just have to lump it! Ali was the greatest as at what he did, and everything else was just a bonus, no matter one's opinion of him. Not one of Ali's "faults" has mystery as to their origins. Not even the trash talk, which was part of the culture and goes on to this day in rap. I mean, you may not agree with Ali joining the Nation of Islam (with whom he did not remain cozy, he was not a follower of Farrahkahn ), but it's not some enigma as to why he might be attracted to it. Ditto his Vietnam stance.

Ok? lol......
 
Haha, ok no problem <shaking hands>

You make a fair point yourself. Honestly if Ali watched our discussion from his cloud, I hope he laughed more than he cringed.

I was ready to let go but due to recent events, both in your and in my country, I tend to be passionate about terrorism. The fact that I am a history buff and a political science specialist, and above all French does not help me to shut up and avoid a good discussion.

Nevertheless, our exchange has been fruitful. You have almost convinced me, in fact. It has been a real pleasure to discuss with you~
 
Haha, ok no problem <shaking hands>

Honestly if Ali watched our discussion from his cloud, I hope he laughed more than he cringed.

Nevertheless, our exchange has been fruitful. You have almost convinced me, in fact. It has been a real pleasure to discuss with you~

Likewise, friend!
 
His mentor was Malcom X, leader of the Racist (Anti-white) terrorist group, Nation of Islam . . . nor did he denounce Malcom X' terrorist ideology.

Regarding Malcom X and the Nation of Islam (which Malcom X left) . . .

I mean, you may not agree with Ali joining the Nation of Islam (with whom he did not remain cozy, he was not a follower of Farrahkahn ) . . .

I'd just like to inject, or interject, that Ali actually left the Nation of Islam early in 1975 following the death of Elijah Muhammad, the same year as his victory in the "Thrilla in Manila." He remained a Muslim of the Sunni sect and later became an adherent of Sufism.
 
Almost sorry I started the thread. For all his faults that have been pointed out (and of course none of us have any), may we let the man rest in peace now?
 
Almost sorry I started the thread. For all his faults that have been pointed out (and of course none of us have any), may we let the man rest in peace now?
Almost.
Some people say Muhammad Ali was the greatest boxer of all time. I say it was Jim Jones. He knocked out over 900 people with one "punch".
Ok. I'm done.
 
One more story-Today when the funeral was taking place, Hannah Storm interviewed Layla Ali. She relayed a story of her daughter asking her why "papa" didn't talk, after all she only knew her grandfather after he lost his ability to speak. Her response made me laugh out loud- "Papa talked, Papa talked a lot!!"

Barbershopman
 
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