Are safewords really necessary?

[ManOMann100]

But I think a good alternative to safewords could be time. You tell a person, "I'm going to tickle you for 20 minutes" or however long, no safewords, and if they agree to it, it might be more fun for the 'ler.

aaaah yes...the longest 20 minutes of my life....lol. Agreed. You know you won't pass out from being unable to breathe but you'll also still be at their (and time's) mercy. 🙂

 

[chicago]

Also, I like tickling to be enjoyable. And I don't like being overly uncomfortable, in pain, or panicking.

I usually don't panic when being tickled unless I can't breathe and that's only happened a few times, but when it has it wasn't "no big deal" which kind of seems to be the tone of this thread in terms of prolonged tickling anyway, and I wouldn't want to ever have an experience that went too far and risked ruining tickling for me forever.

Therefore, during more serious play, safewords are a yes.

But I'm not really into real serious bondage anyway.

 

[ManOMann100]

As I said before, the time thing would work well, but for those such as myself whose bondage/tickling experiences are none, safewords would be a good thing to have starting out, esp. if people are just finding their limits and how much bondage they are into.

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

The fact that you would sit there and say safewords are overused is really very selfish and self-centered. ... .Are all you Ler's doctors??? Do you have you PHD??? You know this is suppose to be about the safety of the Lee. It is not suppose to be about the Ler. The fact that you have a Lee isn't good enough, it has to be the safeword is overused. That is just plain selfish.

I have to disagree with you there, tf4f. To say that safewords are overused is a matter of opinion. And, we have to remember that we're all coming from at least somewhat different perspectives in the choices of play partners as well. Some agree and some don't. But, unless you know the person, it's unfair to assume that they are being selfish or self centered in their sense that they are overused. Max clearly stated that he's speaking of people he knows well enough. While I've never had the opportunity to play with him, I've seen him play with others. He's very much aware of what's going on and what they might need. He never stated that they should never be used or that he wouldn't honor one if it was used...only that he feels that they are used at times when they really aren't necessary.

IMO, any serious/intense play scene (TK or otherwise) where bondage is used should only be done between people with whom a certain degree of familiarity and trust have been established. I think it's likely the fact that so many people hook up and play without getting to know one another first is one reason for the stress on safewords. When you put yourself into a situation where you've given control to someone who amounts to be a stranger, it's an absolute necessity. However, if people are using common sense and sticking with people they really know and trust, they shouldn't be necessary in every situation.

Just my two coppers worth

 

[LeeAllure]

I've seen a few comments which make it seem as though
a tickler is tying and tickling a stranger to within an inch
of their life, or a serious medical condition, and the tickler
is completely oblivious to that.

While I'm sure that there are some people out there so
desperate for ticking contact that that kind of event can
happen, I'm equally sure that that isn't the norm.

As a tickler, I don't want to touch just anyone. And I am
pretty sure that most ticklees are as particular. I like to
talk with people to get to know them before I tickle them.
I like knowing about allergies, medical conditions, problem
joints, etc. And perhaps that wasn't stated becase it's SO
obvious that that's the right thing to do.

I also like to know that the person I'm playing with wants
to be there, can handle the kind of tickling I choose to
do at that moment, and that we're both going to enjoy
ourselves. It seems as though there are ticklers out there
who don't have the same goals.

I'm sure that there are FAR more good tickling events than
bad ones out there, and that bad ones just receive more
press. Like most things - There are hundreds of millions of
car trips every day, and so few accidents comparitively,
but those are what capture our attention - and yet, people
get in their cars and drive the next hour/day. It doesn't mean
that they aren't more cautious, especially if they're the one
who caused, was in, or who narrowly avoided that accident,
but they don't let that fear stop them - they make plans to
have their next drive be better, and I wish people would
focus on making every tickling encounter as good as it can
be, instead of bringing out their fears.

Lee

 

[wendynpeter]

I hope it's clear that I'm not saying that anyone should "refuse to respect safewords." I'm just saying, to quote Max, "they're way overused and overemphasized."

Right. Not aimed at you, Jeff. However, this does spark a thought -- WHO are we saying overuses and overemphasizes safewords? In my experience, when getting ready to play for the first time, the only bottoms who don't initiate a conversation about limits and safewords are the VERY inexperienced ones. In those instances, I have to say I feel absolutely obligated to bring it up myself, and stress that it's perfectly OK for her to bring the subject up in the future with me or anyone else, that it's expected, etc... If I didn't I'd feel like I wasn't doing what I should to help an inexperienced bottom learn the ropes ;-) and keep herself safe.

With regard to the subject being raised by an experienced bottom, *I'm* certainly not going to reply with "I think safewords are overused or overemphasized (or whatever)," because (a) I think they are generally very useful, (b) I'm not going to make her safeword unless she really just can't take it at all, and (c) I want to play, not watch her ass as she walks out the door!

What I'm saying here is that let's say we agree that safewords are overused and overemphasized. Now what? How would that actually work out in the real world? Aren't tops still going to do whatever it takes to make a bottom feel comfortable enough to play, regardless of what they think about the importance of safewords?

 

[wendynpeter]

IMO, any serious/intense play scene (TK or otherwise) where bondage is used should only be done between people with whom a certain degree of familiarity and trust have been established. I think it's likely the fact that so many people hook up and play without getting to know one another first is one reason for the stress on safewords. When you put yourself into a situation where you've given control to someone who amounts to be a stranger, it's an absolute necessity.

However, if people are using common sense and sticking with people they really know and trust, they shouldn't be necessary in every situation.

This is a common sentiment, I'm noticing, in this thread.

It is true that the concept of safewords was born of the Safe, Sane and Consensual motto adopted by the BDSM community, which promotes safe play, especially when playing with people who are not boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives. It promotes safety in "casual play."

While no one has come out and said "You shouldn't engage in BDSM play casually," it's been implied in several posts here. I think we should be careful not to seem judgemental here. Casual BDSM play is a fact of life for the BDSM community, and there's nothing wrong with it, and the rules of safe play do a good job of facilitating safe, fun, casual play.

I'll be the first to agree that you probably don't need a safeword when playing with your longtime girlfriend or your husband. But I do think safewords are a very good good idea for people who are attracted to each other and want to share a bdsm experience, but don't know each other well enough to play without a net.

If we're just talking past each other here, and we essentially agree that they are not so necessary with partners you know very well, but are crucial for casual play, then it seems like we're resolved!

 

[toneus79]

Okay very good topic so I will add my tuppencehapppeny worth as a male lee.

Before I do though one direct question to MTP Jeff which I think is relevant to your opening statement: Namely what are your personal experiences of being a LEE ?

Now with regard to myself as a Lee, lets say pretty much all of my Tickling experiences take👎 place with various professional Dommes (people may look down on me for that, but I don't see that as any different then paying to tickle models and then putting the results on clips for sale or whatever) so if that's a problem for anyone pm me or start a new thread.

Now basically I want to be taken to extremes, in the same way as when I exercise (say running or martial arts) I have always pushed myself to the point of collapse. I think a lot of people who like to be tickled feel the same way. The loss of control is a both a release, and overides a certain level of embarrasment that I for one feel about the whole submissiveness of the thing. Finding a professional Domme able to do this though is a lot harder than you may think.

In the past I have said pre session that I did not want a safeword, only for the domme to stop mid session and ask if I am alright (which from my point of view puts me back in control, and loses the edge of the whole session). I have also found that most dommes are likely to be a lot more ruthless operating with a safeword than without, leading me to the conclusion that in Tickle terms a safeword is for the protection of the Ler not the Lee.

As a Lee I do want to be taken past the edge of the envelope, but are likely to chicken out mid session given the option to do so. As an analogy I turn up for karate training always hoping it will be an easy training session. More often than not it is extremely hard and you and your fellow karateka end up being physically pushed far harder and far more than you could ever do on your own. Yet when the training is over, everyone is smiling and joking, agreeing what a great session it was (self included). Yet if I had known beforehand how hard it was going to be, more as likely I would make an excuse not to turn up. See my point.

One other different example is last year I had a Tickle session with a domme I met through this forum, and no safewords were agreed upon. However mid session my right foot was going numb due to an overtied rope. Yet the session was easily paused until that was corrected. Not least because as I explained at the time, the pain of my numbing foot was overiding the tickling anyway.

Good topic

 

[TMF Jeff]

Before I do though one direct question to MTP Jeff which I think is relevant to your opening statement: Namely what are your personal experiences of being a LEE ?

Fair question: I have no experience as a lee that doesn't date back to the most distant recesses of my childhood memories.

But in my own defense, I have been the ler to literally hundreds of lee's of varying degrees of ticklishness and comfort levels, so I'm not just talking out my ass.

What I'm saying here is that let's say we agree that safewords are overused and overemphasized. Now what? How would that actually work out in the real world? Aren't tops still going to do whatever it takes to make a bottom feel comfortable enough to play, regardless of what they think about the importance of safewords?

I guess I think that everyone should do with this information whatever they think is appropriate for their own comfort, safety and enjoyment. I really just want the discussion, not some specific result. I think we take safewords for granted as a community and that it deserves more consideration than that. That's it.

 

[Dave2112]

From reading all of the comments here, it seems that two things are prevalant. One, as has been said by others, the assumption for some here seems to be that the players don't know each other well. Two, each couple has thier own way of doing things. I don't really see a right or wrong in any of this.

Summed up very simply, I think that if you're inexperienced or playing with someone new, a Safeword sure couldn't hurt, and can always be abandoned later as you either gain personal experience or become more and more familiar with your partner. And, each couple has thier own way. Nobody here has the right to tell other people how to play. I generally don't use them, but if I'm playing with someone new and she wants a safeword, there's no way I'm going to say "No way! Get out of here you newbie! Homie don't play 'dat." It's about respect, and that goes pretty much for all D/S activities.

All of that being said, I would like to add that this has been a very informative and intriguing discussion...one of the types that this board has been made for. Good thread, Jeff.

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

While no one has come out and said "You shouldn't engage in BDSM play casually," it's been implied in several posts here. I think we should be careful not to seem judgemental here. Casual BDSM play is a fact of life for the BDSM community, and there's nothing wrong with it, and the rules of safe play do a good job of facilitating safe, fun, casual play.

Hmmm. Guess I did it again. So, I'll make myself painfully clear this time. I have no problem with casual play. I think it's perfectly acceptable. I just meant that those who engage in more casual play (my definition of that here being play with people they don't know well) need to take more precautions and would, therefore be more likelly to want a safeword. If people know one another well enough, I totally agree that they shouldn't be necessary. If they don't know one another and choose to go without anyway, that's their choice. It just wouldn't be mine.

 

[Eroticklee]

I don't research this as much as Shadow does, but what is the worst that could happen? The lee might pass out? How much tickling does it take to reach that point, and wouldn't there be a whole lot of distress signals to show that the lee has been taken way past their tolerance?

It just seems like common sense should be the rule of the day when it comes to tickling a restrained playmate. Especially if the session is used for tickle "torture" instead of tickling play scenes. But, like I said, I don't know that much about casual tickling. Even though its something I'd like to do, I've only done it with Shadow, so I'm just wondering.

 

[LeeAllure]

This is a common sentiment, I'm noticing, in this thread.

It is true that the concept of safewords was born of the Safe, Sane and Consensual motto adopted by the BDSM community, which promotes safe play, especially when playing with people who are not boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives. It promotes safety in "casual play."

This got me thinking about safewords and my experiences
with family as a child.
If someone had too much, they cried Uncle.

That word as "stop" came about as a sign of submission in a
fight, and was first used in the early 1900s.
Here's a link for anyone interested: http://www.wordwizard.com/ch_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6764
There are other words (i.e. give!) which have had the same effect over time.

I find it interesting that we have to give a name to an action which has been around for a very long time. On the other hand, I've also been amused to see
people with incredibly long safewords trying to get them out (And for the over-cautious, this was just in fun, not in a dangerous situation).

Lee

 

[Capnmad]

I don't research this as much as Shadow does, but what is the worst that could happen? The lee might pass out? How much tickling does it take to reach that point, and wouldn't there be a whole lot of distress signals to show that the lee has been taken way past their tolerance?

But once again, it depends on person and circumstance. Jeff himself (a man with more experience than most in this sort of thing) mentioned that even he accidentally and regrettably overstepped once and made a 'lee cry because he was short of cues (circumstance of type of bondage). But that only emphasizes that anyone can overstep.

If you're asking what's the worst that could physically happen -- passing out, maybe. Muscle cramps. Staggeringly more unlikely, yet still possible is heart attack, and if using poor bondage as someone mentioned before, some other physical injury from thrashing about.

But I think every responsible person is concerned about the total welfare of their 'lees, mental as well as physical. Some 'lees may like being taken to where they're crying, some may not. Learn and know their limits, learn and know their desires, and don't push them unless they have expressed interest in having those boundaries explored and envelopes pushed. Acting otherwise is simply not cool, and will likely result in you finding you have fewer trusting mates to play with.

Mental and emotional traumas are alot harder to fix than physical ones, so I have a great concern as well in the mental and emotional well-being of 'lees under my hands. I want them to have a good time and come back again. Let's not assume the worst that could happen is merely physical.

 

[wendynpeter]

what is the worst that could happen? The lee might pass out?

You say that like it's nothing much to worry about. You have to understand that most bottoms would have an absolute shit fit if things went so wrong that they passed out. And rightly so. Being a bottom yourself, surely you understand how someone would be very interested in avoiding something like that.

 

[Eroticklee]

You say that like it's nothing much to worry about. You have to understand that most bottoms would have an absolute shit fit if things went so wrong that they passed out. And rightly so. Being a bottom yourself, surely you understand how someone would be very interested in avoiding something like that.

Is that really how I said that? How would you know? You weren't here when I said it. I have actually passed out from being tickled too long, so I know what that feels like. It was an innocent question, because I was wondering what else could happen. I wasn't saying it like there was nothing to worry about. i was saying it like I didn't understand.

 

[Eroticklee]

But once again, it depends on person and circumstance. Jeff himself (a man with more experience than most in this sort of thing) mentioned that even he accidentally and regrettably overstepped once and made a 'lee cry because he was short of cues (circumstance of type of bondage). But that only emphasizes that anyone can overstep.

If you're asking what's the worst that could physically happen -- passing out, maybe. Muscle cramps. Staggeringly more unlikely, yet still possible is heart attack, and if using poor bondage as someone mentioned before, some other physical injury from thrashing about.

But I think every responsible person is concerned about the total welfare of their 'lees, mental as well as physical. Some 'lees may like being taken to where they're crying, some may not. Learn and know their limits, learn and know their desires, and don't push them unless they have expressed interest in having those boundaries explored and envelopes pushed. Acting otherwise is simply not cool, and will likely result in you finding you have fewer trusting mates to play with.

Mental and emotional traumas are alot harder to fix than physical ones, so I have a great concern as well in the mental and emotional well-being of 'lees under my hands. I want them to have a good time and come back again. Let's not assume the worst that could happen is merely physical.

Thank you for the information Cap. I guess I didn't look at it that way before. I guess there's all kinds of things that could happen if the tickler is really irresponsible. I'll have to keep that in mind. thank you again for taking the time to explain. 🙂

 

[tklcouple]

hmmmm

Some very interesting discussion (strokes beard pensively).

Seems that some folks have strong opinions on a subject which to me (and I gather to most) is simply a matter of personal choice. I am fascinated that this idea has created such an active thread. (Tips hat to MTP Jeff).

To me the safeword is a matter of the understanding of one option between tickler and ticklee. You could have the IDENTICAL discussion about bondage, and if I remember correctly that has been hashed out here in at least one previous thread.

I do not think anyone would disagree that safewords are an option. As a tickler you can decline to tickle anyone who requires them if you find them not suited to your style of fun. As a ticklee you can have one and just decide not to use it should you wish. It is an option based on personal taste and the level of comfort of the ticklee predominantly.

Second, I do not think anyone (as was earlier affirmed) who prefers not to use them would consider it acceptable to not respect them if used anyway.

This discussion just reinforces that tickler and ticklee really should ideally know each other on a personal level to some extent and that the use of safewords is optional by lee, ler and situation (e.g. you may use safewords when playing with new people at gatherings but decide to forego them with a regular play partner to allow a level of intensity otherwise not experienced with less familiar partners).

Very interesting discussion spurred here. I take away from this discussion that observation once again that tickling, as we appreciate it to be anyway, is not just about the physical act of tickling but rather relating to other people as people.

Just $0.02 from ol' Professor.

Best regards,

Professor Tkl​

 

[Bagelfather]

Yes, the lee yelling "Pain" "Cramp" "Heart Attack" should be enough for the LER to know to stop and do so.

So how is this different than a safeword? The point of a safeword is when things get to far out of control. It is not just sensation overload. If you want to go with the "total control" aspect then nothing should stop the top. this is why I don't see it as absolute values. Yes safewords can be used for "too much end it now," and "help I'm in trouble" but either way it is a safeword even if used for just things like that.

A good top/ler will learn to read their partner and learn to read their body languages and adjust tickling (or other play) so as to the person not saying safeword. If I ever made someone call safeword then that means I have failed (unless you are doing a scene where that is a goal such as an interogation scene).

Ow is generally a safeword in the tickling community (when doing a tickling scene).

 

[Bagelfather]

Now that's good advice!

And someone who has excercised induced asthma might need to use their safeword more often. The fact that you would sit there and say safewords are overused is really very selfish and self-centered. You don't know what the LEE's medical or... It is not suppose to be about the Ler. The fact that you have a Lee isn't good enough, it has to be the safeword is overused. That is just plain selfish.

Hallelujah! You said it brother! I agree! Yes the idea of no safewords for ultimate and total control for your OWN needs is selfish.

If you are negotiating a scene where the bottom/sub/lee gives up control and wants to be pushed beyond anything stopping only for actual pain and such then that is different. In common and ordinary tickling yes safewords are necessary. Not thinking of your lee, not doing aftercare, etc, are all signs of selfishness and will eventually lead to a life of not having regular play partners with love and affection.

 

[Bagelfather]

Safewords

It is interesting in discussions to the BDSM community the "extreme" stuff is conjured up as weights no nipples, flogging, electrical play, blood play, etc. There is a lot of extreme stuff in the lifestyle that does not have to do with such painful actions. There is a lot of play which is all within the sub's mind that is just as powerful. No the sub is not likely to suffer physical harm but the emotional energy in such scenes can sometimes go too far.

Safewords are essential for bringing NEW people into the scene. Without safewords I know that most gatherings would be non existant.

Whether or not you use a safeword is up to you and your partner. To make a blanket statement that they are not necessary is ludicrious. That is strictly between you and your partner so long as your partner agrees to it. Other people want a safety net, other people do not want to be tickled beyond their limits.

With my sweety (whose laugh I will be hopefully posting shortly) is someone I play with regularly and whom I have gotten to know her limits, and she has gotten to know mine. I have not had to say yellow or red to her once. She knows how far to take things, how far to push me.

With her I made her say red once only early in the relationship of getting to know her. Since then I have made her say yellow once and close to saying yellow twice. In those two other times I recognized the point of "I am going too far" and backed off. She did not want to be "tickled beyond her limits" or to my complete discretion. There is a point to her where it is no longer good for her. That is what safewords are for, for letting the top/dom/ler know that the sub/bottom/lee has had enough and it is no longer good for them. To pretend otherwise is being self centered.

Yes we have adopted rules from the BDSM community because those are the rules and standards which have kept THEIR community together. Do you think they would have munches, private parties, and dungeons if there were no safewords? No the fabric of their community would come appart because trust is a LONG thing to build up to.

I was able to bind and tickle my sweety for the first time this gathering. She said to me the same words I said to her when she restrained me for the first time, "I trust you." Those three words are incredibly powerful in this context. They mean that the person trusts you enough not to put them in a dangerous situation, not to push them to the point where safewords may become necessary. I took those three words very strongly to heart and it meant a lot to me and I was not going to violate that trust.

If anyone wants to play without safewords, go for it, it is your life. I don't advise it but that's as far as I go. If you want to condem everyone else for using them and get on a soapbox and declair that you are not like those freaks who whip people that is also your choice. You say "it is just tickling" and they will say "it is just spanking." If anyone's attitude is "it is just tickling" that means they have no concern for the other person and are trying to justify their own selfish kink desires at the expense of someone else and trying to cover it up by downplaying the significance of the issue and making the lee feel defensive and guilty is selfish.

I am not saying tickling someone is rape but the attitude of "it's just tickling" is the same one people use when they make inapropirate sexual remarks, inapropriate touching, or other sexual advances. Your rights end at the tip of the other person's nose. By putting down people who want to use safewords you are acting in a passive aggresive manner to get what you want and satisfy your own selfish desires.

Again, if both parties agree to it, great.

I use safewords, I will not play with someone who doesn't.

 

[terorizer]

I hope at this point, some folks have gone back over this thread and looked at the posts again. It really appears to me that folks opposing each other, are actually really in agreement. Some speak to the action, some speak to the theory behind the action, but for the most part, everyone's saying the same thing.

What would happen if the tickling continued?

This makes me think of all the people I've encountered who have such a violent aversion to tickling, because of some tickle-abuse inflicted on them in their childhood. Sure they are fine physically, but now associate the act with unpleasantness. Of course, it's really the violation of trust that is the issue, but tickling being the vehicle used, is what becomes more easily associated, and thus deplored.

I think this in particular cuts to the heart of what I'm trying to ask...

Is what we do really "play" in the same sense that S&M games are "play?" or have we as a community latched onto the S&M model without really considering it fully?

I think the answer here is an undeniable YES!! As Ann referenced, there's a large part of the community for whom these terms and notions quite foreign and of no use. And they play happily and safely all the time.

Aside from that, even those in the community with the heaviest of BDSM involvment, were most likely tickling many years before they became aware of the "lifestyle". Or are we now gonna say some of us were topping scenes at 6 years of age?

 

[LindyHopper]

In the past I have said pre session that I did not want a safeword, only for the domme to stop mid session and ask if I am alright (which from my point of view puts me back in control, and loses the edge of the whole session). I have also found that most dommes are likely to be a lot more ruthless operating with a safeword than without, leading me to the conclusion that in Tickle terms a safeword is for the protection of the Ler not the Lee.

I think this point is a very good one. At our gathering over this weekend, I had one of the most intense group tickling scenes I've ever experienced (thanks everyone! ). One or two of my 'lers commented that they haven't seen me anywhere this hysterical before. It would be quite possible for them to wonder, "How much is really too much?" But I had the dual safety net of a close and trusted 'ler right by my side, and a safeword. And I believe the fact that all the ticklers involved knew that I had a safeword and would use it if I needed to gave them the freedom to go all out, knowing that I would tell them if it was "really" too much.

Right after me, we had another woman, brand-new to the tickling scene, who agreed to her first gang-tickle. We asked about her safeword. But even more importantly, we paid a good deal of attention to her comfort, and backed off the tickling well before it became overwhelming or approached her limits of tolerance.

I believe you can play safely either with or without a safeword, provided that everyone involved is communicative and considerate. I don't think we've ever heard a safeword at one of our events (and we've been doing this for years!), and I think that's because our 'lees enjoyment and happiness is our overriding concern.

 

[wendynpeter]

Is that really how I said that? How would you know? You weren't here when I said it. I have actually passed out from being tickled too long, so I know what that feels like. It was an innocent question, because I was wondering what else could happen. I wasn't saying it like there was nothing to worry about. i was saying it like I didn't understand.

OK, I guess I interpreted "What's the worst that could happen? The 'lee could pass out?" kind of the same way i interpret that in real life - as a rhetorical question implying that the worst thing that could happen isn't anything to fear. You're right, I wasn't there when you said it. None of us are ever "there" when anyone types anything ... I dunno. Whatever.

 

[new2sceenbob]

It's not necessary with me

It's not necessary with me. While tickling can indeed be dangerous, if very intense and prolonged for a very long time(even fatal), I pay such careful attention to my lee that I would know if she is in any distress long before she would ever have to resort to using a safeword. However, if it would make my lee more comfortable knowing that there is a safeword, then I have no objections to agreeing to one.

Sincerely,
Bob