being a LEE vs being a SUB

[theObsessed1]

And Obessed1..................I will gladly tickle you PINK!

Promises, promises! 😉

LOL Well, this is about what I expected to get out of this thread. Everyone has their own background and experiences that lead to a variety of conclusions about what defines certain roles. I think it's safe to say that, as long as those involved are freely enjoying themselves, it really doesn't matter all that much about what you're calling it. I think we in the TK community have adopted many terms from the BDSM community and are often using them a bit differently. I don't see this as a problem as long as we're clear on what we're actually refering to when we are negotiating play/relationships. 'Tis all fun!

Hazel

 

[steph]

Come to me baby... This is really interesting thread and I'm learning a lot!
XOXO

One who truly understands, not just intellectually but emotionally as well, that the sub/dom roles we wear during tickle play need not have any effect on the rest of our lives, nor do they have to affect the rest of two people's relationship with each other!
a couple can be 'lee and 'ler at play and still live as complete equals in all other shared aspects of their lives, or not, as they choose.

 

[tickled7]

People seem interested in putting people into boxes!

People seem interested in putting people into boxes!

I thought this was a tickling related web site!

I'm not into box-ing!

 

[theObsessed1]

I would agree about trying to avoid sticking people in boxes, etc. You've even managed to do that with your own statement. (Easy to do, isn't it?) Yes. This IS a tickle-related site. But, there are a lot of people who cross over between different interests. I think this is part of whey the terminology gets mixed together and often left with a less specific definition. One group uses it to mean one thing. Another group uses it to mean something totally different.

This happens in all cultures. It's how slang terms and the like come about. I don't think it's a bad thing. We can all learn from one another. But, it does point out the need to be very clear about what each individuals particular interests are.

 

[steph]

eye of the beholder...

Also too, I think a lot of this is subjective. People don't want to admit they're subs, but they're "subbing" in a lot of minds, simply by their behavior, etc...
XOXO

I would agree about trying to avoid sticking people in boxes, etc. You've even managed to do that with your own statement. (Easy to do, isn't it?) Yes. This IS a tickle-related site. But, there are a lot of people who cross over between different interests. I think this is part of whey the terminology gets mixed together and often left with a less specific definition. One group uses it to mean one thing. Another group uses it to mean something totally different.

This happens in all cultures. It's how slang terms and the like come about. I don't think it's a bad thing. We can all learn from one another. But, it does point out the need to be very clear about what each individuals particular interests are.

 

[Eroticklee]

I am a lee, a ler, a dominant, and a submissive all rolled into one girl. I wouldn't categorize myself in any one single way. My personality, like my life is a changing, living thing. Even though I'm spending more time these days in the dominant ler role, I really see myself becoming well rounded in all areas.

 

[TickleMePleeze]

Straight, Gay, Bi, Male, Female, there are always more subs than doms.

Then why are there so many more lers than lees in the tickle community?

 

[lk70]

Then why are there so many more lers than lees in the tickle community?

Are there?

 

[TickleMePleeze]

Maybe it just seems that way because of so much moaning about where are all the lees

 

[steph]

HA!
We wish!
XOXO

Then why are there so many more lers than lees in the tickle community?

 

[Thanatos]

As a 'lee, I am always internally conflicted in how to interact with the 'ler. I want to let her know what will put me through the most torture, but I don't want to come across as "topping from the bottom." But I have enjoyed most of my tickling experiences, so I guess everything is alright.

 

[Avenger314]

'lees are a subset of subs.
For those who never took or flunked freshman logic in college, that can translate this way;
All 'lees are subs, but not all subs are 'lees.
In similar fashion, 'lers are a subset of doms.
Now, a 'lee may not manifest ANY other sub behavior, or they may.
A 'ler may not engage in any other dom behavior, or they may.
Personally, I'm a full on Pack Alpha Male.

introduction.

allow me to disagree with you, Tank, but to use your example to make my point.

Consider a 4-circle venn diagram. On the upper left is being a ler. On the lower left is being a lee. Upper right is being a dom, bottom-right is being a sub.

So we have:

Ler Dom

Lee Sub

The horizontal distinguisher is what type of fetish you have (whether you're into tickling or BDSM).
The vertical distinguisher is what role you play in your particular fetish.

There are vertical intersections since it's within the same fetish but different behaviors. There are healthy horizontal intersections as well. Leeing and subbing have much in common. However, one circle is not contained in the other. There are aspects of leeing that are quite separate from subbing, and aspects of subbing that are different from leeing. Likewise, lering and domming are quite separate. There's probably not much diagonal intersection at all, though there's a hair.

So there you have it. =)

 

[TickleMePleeze]

HA!
We wish!
XOXO

I'm just a confused newbie of no rank or experience. From reading posts and going to a couple of munches I actually did think it was common knowledge that there were more lers than lees.

I've been too intimidated to go to a tickle party to see for myself because I heard there were 12-15 male lers for 4 female lees and that half the female lees are paid to be there. I heard the guy lers switch around from lee to lee (so there would be 3-4 lers tickling a lee at a time) and the lees don't get to pick who tickles them as long as the lers don't break any rules.

I'm probably too uptight and vanilla for TMF. I feel like I don't understand anything around here. It's so overwhelming. I guess I like tickling but not BDSM. Is there a board somewhere for people who just like gentle tickling?

 

[theObsessed1]

Is there a board somewhere for people who just like gentle tickling?

You can find plenty of that here, hon. It's just that there is a crossover in the group and you'll find that some threads cross with it. If your interest is in more playful/gentle tickling, perhaps you can start a thread that better suits your interest. There'll be others to come along as well.

 

[steph]

Ah, ok I see. Well don't leave too quickly~really. I'm one who ONLY likes it gentle too (no spanking or any of that.) You're lucky, you're in one my favorite areas to party~LOTS of opportunity!

Now, your impressions are partly correct. When we party at Passive Arts, some of the girls are paid pros, true. Listmom/Goddess intentionally hires some subs so the guys have a good choice and us "regular girls" don't get nuked! BUT there are dommes that party with us there as well. Mistress Feral and Mistress Stephanie Locke NEVER sub for anyone, they are so much fun, so sexy and funny and the guys absolutely worship the ground they walk on. And yes, the guys tend to walk around from girl to girl but it's cool because you get to experience different styles, many bring their own toys, etc. You can see in a public, safe environment if there's anyone who you might click with for a private session!

BUT~you absolutely can pick who plays with you, just say the word. The lee calls the shots. There's a certain guy who's been banned from playing with me for life~he's just too rough and doesn't get it. See, it's to the ler's advantage for you to like their touch. You'll recommend them to friends AND they get to play with you again~this is NOT the kind of place you want people spreading bad word about you~the community is MUCH smaller than people think.

So stick around ok? This place always needs more girls and I occasionally get down to LA~I can intro you to some VERY sweet, respectful friends, both male and female, some right there in SD! And, if you check out my profile, you can see I've been here awhile. I'm NOT a newbie with no rank! 😉 I've partied with some of the forum's biggest players and swear we'll keep you safe. Deal?
XOXO

I'm just a confused newbie of no rank or experience. From reading posts and going to a couple of munches I actually did think it was common knowledge that there were more lers than lees.

I've been too intimidated to go to a tickle party to see for myself because I heard there were 12-15 male lers for 4 female lees and that half the female lees are paid to be there. I heard the guy lers switch around from lee to lee (so there would be 3-4 lers tickling a lee at a time) and the lees don't get to pick who tickles them as long as the lers don't break any rules.

I'm probably too uptight and vanilla for TMF. I feel like I don't understand anything around here. It's so overwhelming. I guess I like tickling but not BDSM. Is there a board somewhere for people who just like gentle tickling?

 

[simulated]

I've been too intimidated to go to a tickle party to see for myself because I heard there were 12-15 male lers for 4 female lees and that half the female lees are paid to be there. I heard the guy lers switch around from lee to lee (so there would be 3-4 lers tickling a lee at a time) and the lees don't get to pick who tickles them as long as the lers don't break any rules.

I'm probably too uptight and vanilla for TMF. I feel like I don't understand anything around here. It's so overwhelming. I guess I like tickling but not BDSM. Is there a board somewhere for people who just like gentle tickling?

You should head up north for one of our Bay Area gatherings, it might be more your style 😛

As for the lee's not being able to pick who tickles them, in my mind that's totally inappropriate. I doubt thats the way that things are run, but if you wouldn't let someone touch you while you're unrestrained, how would introducing the idea that you couldn't do anything even if you wanted to supposed to help the situation?

I've never been into S&M type stuff; its just never appealed to me. Tickling for me is more about fun and release than domination. I guess that makes me less intense than some people on the forums, but thats the way I am and they have to respect that.

 

[Mastertank1]

It's that way in the clubs too;

There often APPEAR to be more doms than subs, as well as more 'lers than 'lees here.
There is a reason for this. It takes a LOT more courage to actually come out and admit to the fetish as a 'lee than as a 'ler, just as it takes more courage to come out as a sub in the club scene than it does to come out as a dom.
To a newbie who has no idea what to expect, coming out from behind the lurkers curtain can be an absolutely terrifying prospect.
They have no idea what kind of reception they're going to get, and how they'll be expected to respond.
It's even worse in the club scene. A first time sub has to wonder if they will be coerced into participation in a scene, and maybe get injured or worse. They just don't know! It's scary for them!
In clubs I visited regularly, on any given night there were usually more doms present than subs, but over time I noticed that the same doms were there all the time but the subs were an ever changing group, and in total far outnumbered the doms.
At venues that came to be known as safe, the subs came out in swarms.
When I bouncered at the Chateau 19 and the Hellfire Club in NYC, the main 'danger' to sub women was the sub men who would swarm around them, trying to persuade them to switch.
As the bouncer, I had WAY more trouble from aggressive male subs bothering female subs than anything else. When a male dom approached the female sub, some of the male subs tried to physically block him, feeling that if she connected with the male dom she had come looking for they would lose their chance to talk her into becoming a domme! A lot of those guys ended up banned from every club in the city. I know I had to ban dozens of them.
The hellfire eventually made it a rule, posted on the wall; trying to persuade anyone to change their declared orientation was forbidden, would get you tossed with no refund of the stiff cover charge, and a second offense got you banned.
This went for trying to convert gays to straights, straights to gay, subs to dom or doms to sub.
Not that it ever worked very well, trying to make converts, but it annoyed the hell out of the objects of the efforts.

Wild days, back then. Here on TMF, I bet there are way more 'lees than 'lers among the lurkers out there. A lot of them are probably reluctant to sign on because they've read the posts about how every new female member gets flooded with crude PMs from males. I can't blame them, really. Some women members here have dropped back into lurking, or even gone away entirely because of that immature behavior.

I wish the guys who do that would wake up to how self-defeating their behavior is, to the fact that those crude PMs will not get a positive reply from anyone they would actually WANT a positive reply from!

Sighs. Living proof that people with low IQ have more kids than those with high IQ.

 

[Strider]

As the bouncer, I had WAY more trouble from aggressive male subs bothering female subs than anything else. When a male dom approached the female sub, some of the male subs tried to physically block him, feeling that if she connected with the male dom she had come looking for they would lose their chance to talk her into becoming a domme!

Y'know, I've observed this too. And for some reason, it's almost exclusively male submissives who behave this way. I'm sure there are cases of it happening the other way around, but I've personally never seen it.

 

[tickles]

......IK70..I totally agree with you...

 

[fttickler]

Hmmm...

Well I once heard and agree with the LEE is the one with the power. Without LEES we LERS would only have.. well ourselves ( and we know there are alot of those around...lol ) Also some LERS ( though they will deny it alot ) are subs also. What I mean by that is that and I will use me for an example. Most who know me know that even though I am an all around LER.. I have a prefernce to feet. That being said I also have a foot fetish which if you think about it.. can make you a subbie too.. So anyway I do beleive as a LER that the LEE has all the power ( winks at Steph ) and that a Ler can be a subbie sometimes too.

 

[bellystrokes]

I just want to build on something that my goddess, Steph, started. A few posts seem to be equating "lees" with "females" and when I finally got off my butt and attended my first gathering (two years ago this month) that was pretty much the case. Since then, more and more males, even those who are excellent lers, are embracing their lee side or at least giving it a try. And of course, some females are also checking out the ler side of the scene.

mmmmmmm this goddess loves equality and balance. heheheehe

 

[Mastertank1]

At this point I would have to ask why are the calves(at least they tend to be) and wrists so much less ticklish? Also the tops of the feet seem to be less ticklish, but an injury there would handicap the ability to run? Then again why are some people not ticklish in these areas while others are? This is not to say the theory is wrong, but it still leaves us with some interesting questions.

I have known 'lees whose calves/wrists/tops of feet were VERY ticklish indeed. That is simply individual variation.
I will say this; given the physical structures there, a wound on the calf would have to be both very wide and very deep to be truly incapacitating. A person can keep running with a shalloe wound on the calf, even a very long one. I know this from personal experience. I'll show you the scar some day.
Unless a wrist wound is along the length of the major vein it will clot before you bleed out. The tendons and ligaments there are a lot of small ones; unless many of them are severed the hand retains some function, and you don't need full function there to survive on a primitive level. Again, I have reason to know this. One tendon in my left hand is gone, but I still have 96% functionality there. On the top of the foot, again we have an array of tendons, protected by bones called phalanges. Losing any one tendon only disables one toe. The animal can still run. To disable all the toes, the wound would have to cross the entire top of the foot and break all the phalanges. Even then, running would remain possible, with great pain.
Not like the hamstring tendon, a single strand per leg which makes running impossible if either is severed, just as an example. Less vulnerability may be related to less ticklishness.
Just specxulating on that.

 

[Mastertank1]

Oh, Steff honey....

Come to me baby... This is really interesting thread and I'm learning a lot!
XOXO

You know I wish I could come sweeping in with my Vast Cossack Horde and carry you off to my castle in the mountains!
These days, I can't even muster a half-vast horde.
I so wish I could get out there for a visit, or that you could come here!
Luv
Mitch

 

[Mastertank1]

Okay, a Venn chart.

allow me to disagree with you, Tank, but to use your example to make my point.

Consider a 4-circle venn diagram. On the upper left is being a ler. On the lower left is being a lee. Upper right is being a dom, bottom-right is being a sub.

So we have:

Ler Dom

Lee Sub

The horizontal distinguisher is what type of fetish you have (whether you're into tickling or BDSM).
The vertical distinguisher is what role you play in your particular fetish.

There are vertical intersections since it's within the same fetish but different behaviors. There are healthy horizontal intersections as well. Leeing and subbing have much in common. However, one circle is not contained in the other. There are aspects of leeing that are quite separate from subbing, and aspects of subbing that are different from leeing. Likewise, lering and domming are quite separate. There's probably not much diagonal intersection at all, though there's a hair.

So there you have it. =)

The 4 circles are grossly unequal in size and the overlaps are very assymetrical, even allowing for size differences.
Sub is the largest, by a huge factor.
Lee and Dom are about the same size, but lee is 98% contained within sub.
Dom has about 15% overlap with sub, and part of that will also overlap lee.
The smallest circle is ler. It is 98% contained within dom. Part of that overlap will be contained in the dom/sub overlap, and that part will also overlap lee.
The areas where dom overlaps sub and ler overlaps lee are the switchables.
The areas of lee and ler that do NOT overlap sub and dom respectively ware very small indeed, and will not be able to overlap each other without using a shape other than a circle.
I've always thought the Venn chart was utterly inadequate to represent complex real world truths.
But then, I've always been a surly curmudgeon.

 

[Mastertank1]

Perfectly legitimate fears like this

I'm just a confused newbie of no rank or experience. From reading posts and going to a couple of munches I actually did think it was common knowledge that there were more lers than lees.

I've been too intimidated to go to a tickle party to see for myself because I heard there were 12-15 male lers for 4 female lees and that half the female lees are paid to be there. I heard the guy lers switch around from lee to lee (so there would be 3-4 lers tickling a lee at a time) and the lees don't get to pick who tickles them as long as the lers don't break any rules.

I'm probably too uptight and vanilla for TMF. I feel like I don't understand anything around here. It's so overwhelming. I guess I like tickling but not BDSM. Is there a board somewhere for people who just like gentle tickling?

are why more 'lers than 'lees show up at gatherings, in the BDSM world as well as the tickling subworld. This makes it look like there are more 'lers.
First of all, I've never been to a gathering, but I would be shocked if I heard that any 'lee was forced into a scene or session they didn't want to be in, or required to get tickled by anyone they didn't choose to be tickled by.
Guys and gals who have been there, give me a reality check on this? Am I right?