Bret Hart Tribute: The True King of Kings.

[SlaverTickler]

Me too

I wish Vince McMahon had remembered all of that.

You and me both.

 

[SlaverTickler]

However, the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 of wrestling fans disagree with me and generally idolise the man, so I am in a minority of very few against a majority of zilions.

Being in the minority doesn't make you wrong Jim, the majority is sometimes just a group of close minded followers who are willing to swallow what ever load is laid across their lips.

 

[BigJim]

I don't think Vince is the Devil I think Vince is the guy the Devil looks up at from the pits and say's "Man I wish I was that damn evil.". I am glad that you respect Brets skill, but after reading Flairs book and his comments on the Owen Hart trial I can't respect him as a person. Plus I never saw Flair have a match where anybody other then him came out looking good, so he never really helped make anybody. The truth is that Flair politiced his way to everything he ever got, his bolgraphy is solid proof of this because it is 300+ pages of sucking McMahon's dick. The only reason he even had a job in the wrestling buisness after the Vince bought out WCW was because Steph was involved with Trips and Flair is Trips favorit wrestler from his youth.

If most people will remember Hart for the Montreal Screw Job then I'll probably remember Flair as the guy who spent the last 5 year of his carreer with his tongue so far up triple h's ass he could taist McMahon's load before Hunter could.

My God, and I thought I didn't like Vince!

Question: Owen Hart trial? What was this, a judicial investigation into the accident that killed Owen? Also, what comments did Flair make on it?

My own distaste for Flair outside of the ring comes from his in-built love for nepotism and imcompetence he showed as a WCW booker. Left to compete normally, WCW would have crashed and burned long before it did. Despite the figures that saw Nitro outpace Raw for so long, it was only Ted Turner's feeding money into a financially (not to mention artisically) dead business that kept it afloat. What Turner thought he was doing is anyone's guess. It looked to me as if he were running it as his own private fantasy and didn't give shit how much money it lost.

 

[BigJim]

Being in the minority doesn't make you wrong Jim, the majority is sometimes just a group of close minded followers who are willing to swallow what ever load is laid across their lips.

Well in this case the majority included Mick Foley, a man who's opinion I respect above nearly all others.

I think that right and wrong are subjective concepts here, much open to interpretation. Ric Flair was one of the best of all time, according to millions of people who watched him wrestle. I personally couldn't stand him; he made me itch. Great and crap are defined by what the majority of people think they are in this case I think.

So much as I disagree with the verdict, Ric Flair is one of the GOAT.

 

[SlaverTickler]

My God, and I thought I didn't like Vince!

Question: Owen Hart trial? What was this, a judicial investigation into the accident that killed Owen? Also, what comments did Flair make on it?

Flair says Bret stoked the flames to get Martha Hart to press charges against Vince McMahon, and the (then) WWF. I'm sure she didn't need Bret in her ear for that.

My own distaste for Flair outside of the ring comes from his in-built love for nepotism and imcompetence he showed as a WCW booker. Left to compete normally, WCW would have crashed and burned long before it did. Despite the figures that saw Nitro outpace Raw for so long, it was only Ted Turner's feeding money into a financially (not to mention artisically) dead business that kept it afloat. What Turner thought he was doing is anyone's guess. It looked to me as if he were running it as his own private fantasy and didn't give shit how much money it lost.

As I understand it Truner never cared if WCW drew a dime he was just a big ol' wrestlin' fan. WCW took off for two reasons and niether of them were Ric Flair. 1 was the skills and international apeal of the lads in the Cruiser Weight Divition, and the story line of the nWo (mainly Hogan's heel turn). The best thing Flair could have done for wrestling was put over an up and commer at Mania 24 and he wan't even classy enough to do that.

 

[BigJim]

Flair says Bret stoked the flames to get Martha Hart to press charges against Vince McMahon, and the (then) WWF. I'm sure she didn't need Bret in her ear for that.

If I'd been Bret, I would've stoked the flames if I thought there was a culpability issue.

What was the outcome of said trial?

As I understand it Truner never cared if WCW drew a dime he was just a big ol' wrestlin' fan. WCW took off for two reasons and niether of them were Ric Flair. 1 was the skills and international apeal of the lads in the Cruiser Weight Divition, and the story line of the nWo (mainly Hogan's heel turn). The best thing Flair could have done for wrestling was put over an up and commer at Mania 24 and he wan't even classy enough to do that.

That pretty much sums up my opinion of WCW too.

Dunno what happened at 24, as I stopped following WWF after the ludicrous brand split, the moronic number of titles and the ridiculously short length of time title reigns came in.

Rock's been champion what, six or seven times? And all of them added together don't equal either of Hogan's longest two.

 

[Texas_Tickle]

However, the Screwjob will probably be the thing he is remembered for the most. .

All because he wouldn't suck up to McMahon's ego. All because he wouldn't bend over and kiss his ass.

 

[Texas_Tickle]

It looked to me as if he were running it as his own private fantasy and didn't give shit how much money it lost.

Yeah, but when you can shit on a million-dollar bill and not think twice, what else do you expect?

 

[BigJim]

Yeah, but when you can shit on a million-dollar bill and not think twice, what else do you expect?

I'm glad he did it that way to be honest. WCW was an artistic pile of shit with little or no internal ethics, particularly with pushing no talent. Vince, no matter how low he could sink at times (a'la the Screwjob) had more creative genius in one of his arse cheeks than Ted Turner and Ric Flair had in both their whole bodies put together. That is presumably why Vince bought the remants of WCW for a buck fifty and then buried it in the invasion storyline.

 

[InspectorJapp]

In every good match ever had, the other guy carried him. He was 14 times the man in a company most people didn't watch, and ony 2 times the man where most people see it as important (Hart was 5 times the man in that company). Triple H isn't the king of anything... except maybe the Pig Pen Henry Godwin threw him in at one of the PPV's before he hooked up with Steph.

Hahaha, I'm getting to like you, Slaver.
I disagree with pretty much everything you write, but I'm getting to like you.

 

[SlaverTickler]

All because he wouldn't suck up to McMahon's ego. All because he wouldn't bend over and kiss his ass.

Mmm sort of. It had more to do with things HBK said to him going into the Survivore Serries 97 then anything that had to do with Vince. Bret himself has said "Anybody who is 100% on my side or 100% on Vince's side doesn't know the ful story." My hatred for Vince stems more for his past disregard for the well being of the people who work for him. This wellness policy is about as on the level as the drug testing from the 90's, the second nobody is looking anymore it will vanish. Wresting needs some sort of union or 3rd party intervention to make sure stuff like 30 wrestlers dieing in 10 years from heart attacks related to pain killers and roid use don't happen anymore. Just because nobody forces you to become a wrestler doesn't mean you shouldn't have the safest working conditions possible. This also goes for TNA, Ring of Honour and any promotions. Their is a reason why you don't hear about Japanese wrestlers dropping like flies you know.

 

[SlaverTickler]

If I'd been Bret, I would've stoked the flames if I thought there was a culpability issue.

What was the outcome of said trial?

Well that is probably the saddest part of all. Two of Bret's sisters sold out their Sister In-Law as well as Stu and Helen (the parents) by fax's a file one of them found on thier mothers desk to Titan Sports (aka Vinnie-Mac's office). And those sisters were ))))))Drum Roll Please((((((( Diana Smith and Ellie Niedhart. Thats right boys and girls Mrs Anvil and Mrs Bulldog. In case you are wondering Bret hate these two sisters and when I last read up on it he wasn't talking to them. He is still on good terms with Jim because all Martha Hart had asked was that nobody talk to the media, and Jim had respected that request. Owen's death wasn't just hard on the Hart family it basicly destoryed them as a family.

 

[SlaverTickler]

I'm glad he did it that way to be honest. WCW was an artistic pile of shit with little or no internal ethics, particularly with pushing no talent. Vince, no matter how low he could sink at times (a'la the Screwjob) had more creative genius in one of his arse cheeks than Ted Turner and Ric Flair had in both their whole bodies put together. That is presumably why Vince bought the remants of WCW for a buck fifty and then buried it in the invasion storyline.

And that was a wait of an incredable resorce. WCW had some of the most gifted in ring performers in the biz. With one line from the Rock "Who in the blue hell are you?" he destoryed everything Booker T had busted his ass to build for himself (and thats why Sting won't go to WWE). Having Austin jump over and "Win the WWE title for Team ECW/WCW" was a load of horse shit, as was having the Rock win the WCW title. If Vince was so smart and such a creative genius he would have seen the value in keeping the WCW roster strong, and even giving them SmackDown if they won the Invation PPV. Infact I would have held off on the ECW wrestlers turning on the WWE guys for another 6 months. As far as I am concerned he handled the Invation angle as well as he did Owen Hart after Montreal. He abused them out of spite.

 

[SlaverTickler]

Dunno what happened at 24, as I stopped following WWF after the ludicrous brand split, the moronic number of titles and the ridiculously short length of time title reigns came in.

Well I haven't followed WWE since Eddie's death, but as I understand it a guy going by the name "MVP" had 1 win and 1 loss against Flair. Goining into Mania Flair was doing a lose and your fired angle. His second match with MVP was during this time and he beat him (leaving room for the "rubber match"). I would have put the IC strap on Flair, then have MVP win a Battle Royal to get a shot at the belt for Mania, and then beat Flair for the title and finnish his carreer. This would have been a massive push for MVP and set him up to fued with all of Flair's buddies like Hunter, HBK, Batista and Randy Orton. They could have even had him refuse to come out and shake Flairs hand on RAW the next night. It could have been great, but Flair had his match with HBK instread and months or even a year of story line were killed off.

 

[Texas_Tickle]

Mmm sort of. It had more to do with things HBK said to him going into the Survivore Serries 97 then anything that had to do with Vince. Bret himself has said "Anybody who is 100% on my side or 100% on Vince's side doesn't know the ful story." My hatred for Vince stems more for his past disregard for the well being of the people who work for him. This wellness policy is about as on the level as the drug testing from the 90's, the second nobody is looking anymore it will vanish. Wresting needs some sort of union or 3rd party intervention to make sure stuff like 30 wrestlers dieing in 10 years from heart attacks related to pain killers and roid use don't happen anymore. Just because nobody forces you to become a wrestler doesn't mean you shouldn't have the safest working conditions possible. This also goes for TNA, Ring of Honour and any promotions. Their is a reason why you don't hear about Japanese wrestlers dropping like flies you know.

The 'wellness program' is a joke in itself. People like Randy Orton, Batista, Cena are given a free pass because of their main event status.

But those who are not as 'over' or perhaps have not achieved the status as those mentioned, are made a public example of if they violate the policy.

Hardy is a walking pharmacy and what do they do? Give him the Title.

And Brock Lesner is (was) a multi-time champ and please don't tell me his physique is natural

Granted Lesner is no longer competing in the WWE, but the same policy was in place.

 

[Heeko]

Isn't "bulldog jr" and "anvil's daughter" wrestling in WWE at the moment?

Also, Slaver everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I seriously doubt anyone beating Flair at mania would have been put "over". Someone is only put over when the match outcome is in doubt or the match is extremely exciting to watch. Neither was the case in this match no matter the opponent for Flair.

MVP would be thought of the same if he had - or hadn't - beaten Flair.

I also think you put way too much into those garbage wrestling bios you read. Those rags are designed to sell. That means saying anything that sells the book. I wouldn't put much stock in it, no matter who writes it or who it is about. It's purpose is to sell and make the writer money.

Am I calling the writer a liar? They could be. I don't know them personally or know anything past their on-screen character. I don't stick my nose up their ass to find out what they do off camera or in their personal lives.

They certainly don't give a rat's ass about me as long as I buy a ticket the next time they are at the local arena.

But on the topic of Bret Hart: I thought he was a great wrestler and a good performer. The only knocks I have on him are his mic skills were dry and boring to me. I also never bought him as a bad guy. But again, that's just me.

 

[Goodieluver]

I'm glad he did it that way to be honest. WCW was an artistic pile of shit with little or no internal ethics, particularly with pushing no talent. Vince, no matter how low he could sink at times (a'la the Screwjob) had more creative genius in one of his arse cheeks than Ted Turner and Ric Flair had in both their whole bodies put together. That is presumably why Vince bought the remants of WCW for a buck fifty and then buried it in the invasion storyline.

WCW took the artistic genius from WWF to try and revitalize wcw(russo\fererra)

They then did the opposite fans wanted, but this time acknowledged that they were doing it

Pretty much both companies suffered when they raided ECW to death and ECW couldnt supply any more ideas to be stolen

 

[Goodieluver]

The 'wellness program' is a joke in itself. People like Randy Orton, Batista, Cena are given a free pass because of their main event status.

But those who are not as 'over' or perhaps have not achieved the status as those mentioned, are made a public example of if they violate the policy.

Hardy is a walking pharmacy and what do they do? Give him the Title.

And Brock Lesner is (was) a multi-time champ and please don't tell me his physique is natural

Granted Lesner is no longer competing in the WWE, but the same policy was in place.

He was big when he amateur wrestled and is big in MMA and both have strict drug enforcement policies

 

[SlaverTickler]

Isn't "bulldog jr" and "anvil's daughter" wrestling in WWE at the moment?

Bulldog jr was suspended because of some stuff he was using, funny how all the guys who are getting suspended arn't married to the bosses daughter. Also where else are Harry and Nellie suposed to work in the buisness if they want to make a good living?

Also, Slaver everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I seriously doubt anyone beating Flair at mania would have been put "over". Someone is only put over when the match outcome is in doubt or the match is extremely exciting to watch. Neither was the case in this match no matter the opponent for Flair.

MVP would be thought of the same if he had - or hadn't - beaten Flair

You are dead wrong.

That match itself mught not have been enough, but having him refuse to come out an shake flairs hand on RAW, and wish him well awould have brought the Drama that helps get a star over. Beating Flair at Mania would have just been a big step in getting him their. It seems you don't get the idea of developin a story line.

I also think you put way too much into those garbage wrestling bios you read. Those rags are designed to sell. That means saying anything that sells the book. I wouldn't put much stock in it, no matter who writes it or who it is about. It's purpose is to sell and make the writer money.

Am I calling the writer a liar? They could be. I don't know them personally or know anything past their on-screen character. I don't stick my nose up their ass to find out what they do off camera or in their personal lives.

They certainly don't give a rat's ass about me as long as I buy a ticket the next time they are at the local arena.

Like I said about Flairs book, it was one big blow job to Vince McMahon.

But on the topic of Bret Hart: I thought he was a great wrestler and a good performer. The only knocks I have on him are his mic skills were dry and boring to me. I also never bought him as a bad guy. But again, that's just me.

It's true Bret wasn't the best on the mic, but he was believable, and that was all he really cared about.

 

[SlaverTickler]

WCW took the artistic genius from WWF to try and revitalize wcw(russo\fererra)

They then did the opposite fans wanted, but this time acknowledged that they were doing it

Pretty much both companies suffered when they raided ECW to death and ECW couldnt supply any more ideas to be stolen

Wow you memory is as good as Vince's. WCW was kicking WWF's ass for 84 weeks, that was before Russo and Fererra left Vince and came to work for Turner. Russo is the single most over raited booker in the history of the buisness, almost as over raited as Cena's work rait.

 

[BigJim]

WCW took the artistic genius from WWF to try and revitalize wcw(russo\fererra)

They then did the opposite fans wanted, but this time acknowledged that they were doing it

Pretty much both companies suffered when they raided ECW to death and ECW couldnt supply any more ideas to be stolen

I don't think it's any coincidence with my opinion of WCW that they could take guys like Bret Hart and he becomes invisible within four months, yet Vince McMahon can take two guys in their 60's (Gerald Brisco and Pat Patterson) and turn them into bigger headline stealers than they were when they were actually wrestling.

 

[The Sean Man]

I don't think it's any coincidence with my opinion of WCW that they could take guys like Bret Hart and he becomes invisible within four months, yet Vince McMahon can take two guys in their 60's (Gerald Brisco and Pat Patterson) and turn them into bigger headline stealers than they were when they were actually wrestling.

The "Stooges" were quite entertaining...like when they were getting Vince ready for his match with Stone Cold.

 

[MWhoTklsFemFeet]

Okay time for me to get in on this, and allow me a little lead way here.

First of all, I have nothing against Bret Hart the wrestler, a fantastic competitor who gave his all in the ring, and love the business more than anything.

Now having said that, the guys mention through out this thread (Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Triple H and so on) to say they aren't even worth enough to carry the jock of Bret Hart and to say Triple H never got anything unless he married into the family, I'm sorry I have to say something. Ric Flair had to have something going for the past 35 years or else they would have to him to kick rocks long ago. To me he gave great promos and winning a championship sixteen times is just giving him the belt "just because"

Second of all about Bret, Shawn Michaels and Triple H for all the controversy they've caused, not once did they ever turn they're back on the americans fans or any fans for that matter, Bret Hart had a problem with anyone bigger than him and that got more cheers than him. He hated Shawn Michaels, he hated Stone Cold Steve Austin because they didn't come from the rich wrestling back ground he came from.

Bret Hart never had to watch friends who were like family leave him like Triple H and Shawn Michaels did for Hall and Nash did, when Bret left for WCW, The Anvil and Bulldog (if memory serves me right) left right behind him.

Again, Bret Hart is easily top five, but to me, the Number one guy is Shawn Michaels and Triple H is as he says he is, that damn good.

 

[SlaverTickler]

First of all, I have nothing against Bret Hart the wrestler, a fantastic competitor who gave his all in the ring, and love the business more than anything.

I think even those of us who aren't in the "Hart Camp" would agree with that.

Now having said that, the guys mention through out this thread (Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Triple H and so on) to say they aren't even worth enough to carry the jock of Bret Hart and to say Triple H never got anything unless he married into the family, I'm sorry I have to say something. Ric Flair had to have something going for the past 35 years or else they would have to him to kick rocks long ago. To me he gave great promos and winning a championship sixteen times is just giving him the belt "just because"

Triple H was so in the dog house after the MSG insident that he was squashed and I mean like a bug by the Warrior (and Warrior was still blown out). He was getting tossed into pig pens, and all sort of dumb shit. In fact during the match with Godwin I looked over at a friend and said, "This guy must have pissed off somebody, because he is to talented to be doing this."

Shawn Micheals started out a a "good kid" but as soon as he gained some position in the company he became a loud mouth ass hole with no repect for tradtion. When he was asked to drop the IC title he would suddenly get injured or "suspended" and have to "forfeit" the championship. Add to that the fact that it was right after WrestleMania 11 when the WWF's raiting tanked and WCW became #1 was during his run with the WOrld title, I'd say he is 2nd to Hart simply because of that factor.

Flair is one of the best conditioned men in the history of the buisness, and is a legend with out a dout. It is said that the Hourse Men would do a show, party in Vegas, and then do another show the next night some place else. That would be a tough pill for most guys to swallow, but when you have Ric's conditioning, combined with doing almost the exact same match almost every time you get in the ring, well it helps. Ric's promo's were cool at times, like the one before his "Career vs Title" with Vader, but most of the time he sounded like my dear old Aunt Flow (seriously I had an Aunt Flow) when she would watch Weel of Fortune, or a Leafs games... though she wasn't so far gone that she'd scream "WOOOOOOOOOO!" when the Leafs scored. However Flair did have one gift that helped him win most of his 16 world titles, a really stong tongue.

Second of all about Bret, Shawn Michaels and Triple H for all the controversy they've caused, not once did they ever turn they're back on the Americans fans or any fans for that matter, Bret Hart had a problem with anyone bigger than him and that got more cheers than him. He hated Shawn Michaels, he hated Stone Cold Steve Austin because they didn't come from the rich wrestling back ground he came from.

Bret did not have a problem with people being bigger stars then him. The truth was that after Hogan left, and before Austin came around, Bret was the biggest star the (then) WWF had, and after winning the IC title from Hanig he was probably a top 10 or better on most peoples favorit list. He's never said anything to disrespect Shwan as a performer, but when a guy does the "honourse" for you it's not cool to tell the reff "Get him the fuck out of my ring." and when he is going to do it again it is not cool to say "Thanks, but I wouldn't do it for you.". The comment about Steve Austin doesn't make sence at all because if he hated him for not being born of a wrestling family why did he have such great matchs with him? Why didn't he refuse to work with him, or make the matchs look bad when he did? Lastly why did he have Austin induct him into the hall of fame? (I ask myself that last one considering Steve snubbed Owen Hart's funeral). Hell 99% of the guys Bret worked with didn't have anywhere near the back ground he did in the buisness for that matter.

Bret Hart never had to watch friends who were like family leave him like Triple H and Shawn Michaels did for Hall and Nash did, when Bret left for WCW, The Anvil and Bulldog (if memory serves me right) left right behind him.

I don't think Shawn and Trips shed one tear when Hall and Nash split for WCW, I think they were happy to see two of the WWF's top stars at the time leave, because it gave them better levrage with their contracts. Think about it, Hall and Nash were members of the Clique, if Vince didn't give Shawn or Hunter what they wanted he had to worry about them jumping over to the company their friends were in, and you don't think Bishoff would have loved to have HBK in WCW. Besides it wasn't like the never heard from them during that period, and probably saw them from time to time as well.

Again, Bret Hart is easily top five, but to me, the Number one guy is Shawn Michaels and Triple H is as he says he is, that damn good.

Well I'll give you a reverce opinion, Shawn is easliy top 5, Bret is #1, and Trips is the greatest politision in wrestling history. Some are born to greatness (Bret Hart) others have it thrust upon them (Hulk Hogan) and some steal it (Triple H).

 

[MWhoTklsFemFeet]

You do bring valid points to the defense of Bret Hart, but how do you explain the alienation of all fans american?

People who cheered him through out his years and when they started to cheer Austin (this was during the Austin / Hart battles) Bret Hart said that he couldn't understand why people are cheering a guy that's making his life miserable and boo him, then go on to say that fans of the U.S. have nothing on fans else where in the world?

As far as Austin inducting him in the hall of fame I've got that on the DVD of wrestlemania 22 and Im going to have to go back out of just flat curiuosity at just how that went down, Ive always wondered that.