Cack =/= Art

[iggy092]

What's lower then cack?

I didn't even make the list so i guess i'm lower then cack.

 

[Kalamos]

Fair enough. Maybe it was the glowing red eyes that threw me off! 🙂

It was just the eye-strain from too much drawing... 😉

As a "moonknight" I'd go for something like this myself
http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/H1001_SpangenHelm.JPG

Yeah, looks classy.

And you just had to put the vino in your hand didn't you?

Eh, that was a celebratory pic.
I don't drink much myself... but you sometimes have to play by the stereotype, not against it.

😀

But for the record, since you seem to thrive on encouragement, I will say that more than one of your artworks has grabbed my attention.

Eh! Encouragement is bread and butter to any artist out there, whatever the tools or art form.
I just happen to be more vocal than others.

When you post free pics, the only reward you get is feedback.
Plus, you take feedback away, how is one supposed to know what ppl like?

Even publishing becomes a gamble.
If we were to judge from hit and reply count alone, we should have never bothered with an e-zine at all.

In particular, I enjoyed one of a Hobbit (or Halfling) who had her foot stuck in a gopher hole and was being tickled by the resident rodent. Bravo!

This is the kind of feedback I need! 🙂
Thanks!

😀

I think your work is awesome Kalamos - but I have rarely taken the opportunity to tell you.
And how would you know that, unless I take the time to tell you.

The point is, posting is complimenting in itself.
Even when one posts negative feedback, he/she is taking notice of the pic.
And by replying, in turn bumps the artist's thread, awarding more exposure and potentially more feedback.

No matter how good or bad art is, replying is a big reward, in a system that revolves around exposure and visibility.

I'll tell ya what - Kalamos, let's make a pact. You fawn over my work, and bump my threads, and I'll do the same for you LOL.

Aren't they going to see right through us, now? 😉

I've realised this for about a couple of years now. Ever realised that when a very popular member of the TMF who almost never visits the art forums posts very average art, and some just isn't tickling at all, their little clique comes around and posts on how fantastic it is while making a conversation in that thread, appearing that the art/thread is more important than it actually is.

I know you have.
And I marked your words, and they now make sense to me.

I still remember when you complained about ppl posting just one or two pics per thread, spreading their stuff all over the forum, and thus getting more visibility than raw contents could have afforded them.

That really annoys me, given that the quality here is ignored by many brown-nosing peanuts who are only bigging up their friends. What's even worse is that certain "higher-ups" in the TMF are repeat offenders.

Well... there is nothing wrong with having friends.
I just wish I had more of mine own.

🙂

As I often say, half joking, half serious, I should have picked Necromancy, and learnt how to raise myself a posse of undead fans, and field them as relentless thread bumpers.

😀

This kind of thing makes not bother drawing here in the first place.

At first it was tough: I thought I was failing at pleasing the crowd.
Then it dawned on me maybe it wasn't my fault.

Now I'm posting outside TMF, too, and my ego isn't hurting as it used to do.

🙂

 

[Rgevskiy]

iggy092
Nope. Your art is not cack. You are have nice cartoon style. True cartoon is not cack. =)
It's my opinion.

 

[laughinggaszone]

iggy092
Nope. Your art is not cack. You are have nice cartoon style. True cartoon is not cack. =)
It's my opinion.

Actually, it is. In fact, so is yours. Although the term, cack, is derogatory, I don't mean it as such. I simply mean that you meet the qualifications. Both of you have improved quite a bit over time, but your art is still very untrained When I say untrained, I mean you still have not mastered many basic techniques in drawing. Your "style" is not something you created as much as it is a reflection on your lack of training. In order to develop a true style, you must have a command of the fundamentals, otherwise, you are not truely creating anything as much as you are at the mercy of your limitations. As Sun TZu, the chinese warlord and philosopher wrote, to feign cowardice, one must master courage.
webmaster joe

ps...to be fair...I've been critiquing without having posted an example of my own work. Below is the very first picture I drew (as an adult) and the other is a quick geometric cartoon I drew and computer colored. There are several years between the two. Huuuuge difference. And I actually thought that 7of9 pic was good when I first drew it. What was I smoking!

 

[Redscript]

Retrospect

O.K. Here is what I did.
I have a friend that has a really annoying personality. He always speaks his mind, at least when he's talking to me. I showed him some of my artwork. Then I found out that he has another annoying trait: no matter how good i draw something, it's never good enough.

After taking that kind of abuse for a while, even an average human would be able to take anything anyone can dish out at him. Now I improve my drawing skills just to annoy him .

What i'm trying to say is this: an artist cannot develop if he is not criticised, be that from himself, or others (of course yourself is always better).

Now for something off the subject:
Are there any tutorials that explain tickling artwork? If not, would anyone be interested in one? I would very much like to make one, or two, or...

 

[laughinggaszone]

O.K. Here is what I did.
I have a friend that has a really annoying personality. He always speaks his mind, at least when he's talking to me. I showed him some of my artwork. Then I found out that he has another annoying trait: no matter how good i draw something, it's never good enough.

After taking that kind of abuse for a while, even an average human would be able to take anything anyone can dish out at him. Now I improve my drawing skills just to annoy him .

What i'm trying to say is this: an artist cannot develop if he is not criticised, be that from himself, or others (of course yourself is always better).

Now for something off the subject:
Are there any tutorials that explain tickling artwork? If not, would anyone be interested in one? I would very much like to make one, or two, or...

I have a friend like that. Making fun of my art is actually a running joke with him. It gets rather annoying. I refuse to "improve" for him and simply don't show him my work.

Yes, criticism is vital, but it must be constructive. Encouragement, in healthy doses, is also vital to most artists.
webmaster joe

 

[Rgevskiy]

laughinggaszone
I have not improved a lot, because I have no goal becomes high-level artist. I have pessimistic views about my style.
But I have some ideas. I search for the artist-co-author for creation a e-comic for selling (my sister are perfect candidate, but she too lazy).
But I do not hasten, because I have unusual ideas. The Most of my posted pics it's like passive public-opinion poll. I try to probe a market to not make fatal mistakes in the future.
I don't want to uncover all my plans...

 

[laughinggaszone]

laughinggaszone
I have no goal becomes high-level artist. [/COLOR]

Still, no reason you can't improve on a much larger scale. No one says you have to improve, but it's seems a waste not to grow in any endevour you undertake.
webmaster joe

 

[moonknight80200]

Kalamos, you are right of course. Encouragement to artists is like water to plants.

And Scavenger, I've long admired your work too. Not only do I enjoy the subject matter and the style, but also the obvious amount of painstaking work and attention to detail you pour into each creation. You're one of the few artists (and I refuse to use that word for the scribblers and doodlers) who shows us a little of the process before the finished product, and I really appreciate that. That only serves to widen the gulf between you and the "cack" artists who obviously do not take the time to sketch things out beforehand, but rather just sort of let their chosen implement vomit onto the canvas.

Point being, your stuff rocks.

I've learned something from this discussion. Encourage those whose work I enjoy. In fact, I'd be willing to offer encouragement to anyone at all who seems to be a halfway decent artist. But by the same token, I'm sure I'd be reviled and flamed if I criticized someone's favorite "cack" artist, even if my reasons were sound. Some of them seem to have a following for whatever reason.

And lastly, is that Nightcrawler's daughter Blink up there, or am I way off? Your style sure has improved over the years, joe. It's funny how in that early pic one of 7of9's boobs is pointing straight up and the other straight down.

But I still wouldn't call that pic "cack" and here's why. My definition of "cack" is very narrow indeed. At least in the 7of9 pic you can tell that the artist had some perception of anatomy, etc., while the cack stuff cannot really even be said to be "cartoon" style. It looks like an eight year old did it. Has anyone ever seen Jack Kirby's comic strip stuff? It's much different than any of his Marvel/DC stuff. Same is true in reverse for Bill Watterson. But both men, like most who REALLY draw in the cartoon style, have a mastery of basic technique, anatomy, etc., as opposed to those who churn out drek and then call it "a style" or "cartoon" so they or their supporters can use the cop-out "you just don't appreciate his style". I don't think it's wrong to make a distinction between one and the other.

Oh, and Iggy, for what it's worth...I for one don't think your stuff is cack, bro. I like a lot of your latest. Something has to be really wretched for me to call it cack. 🙂

 

[laughinggaszone]

And lastly, is that Nightcrawler's daughter Blink up there, or am I way off? Your style sure has improved over the years, joe. It's funny how in that early pic one of 7of9's boobs is pointing straight up and the other straight down.

Yep, that's Blink. Although I don't believe she's nightcrawler's kid. You're probably thinking of the blue skinned chick in the Exiles series, which Blink stars in.

As for the 7of9, it's probably not bad enough to be cack, but it's very amatuerish. The boobs are ALIVE!!!!!!
webmaster joe

 

[moonknight80200]

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of Nocturne or whatever her name is. Blink's the one who was Apocalypse's great-great-grandkid or something. I haven't read any of the X-titles since the Dark Phoenix/Hellfire Club days. Geesh, I'm getting old.

And speaking of Nightcrawler, he's one of us for sure. On panel, he's nailed Phoenix (Rachel Summers), Rogue, and Meggan (ironically, not on her always bare feet). You know what? I'm gonna go start a thread about female comic book characters who can be verified to be ticklish on panel in the tickling discussion section.

 

[greenapplesoda]

i dont know how derailed this thread is after 5 pages already
but i think the true problem is lack of origionality, and it's kinda hard to come up with a piece of work that is origional concepts while worrying about your style and drawing skills... the only way i see "origional" is to draw comic strips, multiple pages/cells, to have wee bit deeper plot. but most of us probably are too lazy for that 😛

 

[Kalamos]

i think the true problem is lack of origionality, and it's kinda hard to come up with a piece of work that is original concepts while worrying about your style and drawing skills...

Well... artists usually provide what users requests.
Try posting a pic with a mundane thread title.
Then, post the same pic, naming the thread something like "Teen Titans", "Kim Possible", "Manga"...

You can fight the flow just so much, before you stop swimming.
And then, you get your stuff away, and show it to a different crowd, hoping they'll be more responsive.

...

Now, I know it's an egg/chicken problem.
Who's to be blamed first? Drawers for settling for easy mainstream pics, or viewers for rewarding them with comments and visibility?

...

Maybe the true mark of genius is coming up with original chars, overcoming probs such as style and skills.

...

Personally, I grew up trying to copy Elmore's art.
I set myself an aloof goal, and even if I'm still far from reaching it, I feel much better from it despite all.

...

The problem is not being original.
Maybe the problem is setting our goals too low.

That, and the blasted fanboys that scream out with ill-restrained glee when somebody posts something related to their favourite toon char or genre...

😉

 

[Powertickle]

Not too bad. Got fourth.
Out of 4...

...

As usual, I don't even qualify for bronze.

Don't worry dude
see the image attached 😉


about the thread - i basically tend to agree with the opening post.

i really like a good drawing. it is far more enticing than a regular picture or even most videos since it empowers my imagination. but there are times when imagination is streched ... too far 😉

Obviously each has his own taste. I for instance would often save a lesser drawing, if it has a certain fantasy setting or a "feeling" to it. Or perhaps it just features u/b tickling and not foot tickling. who knows?

but there ARE basic standards. Some pictures I won't save, no matter what they are 'supposed' to depict. And I really don't lurk here enough to remember artists by name (except BAC or something 😀).

I think that possibly we should have two forums. One for newbies and one for more mature posters, that get alot of credit.

perhaps, the other forum would be locked, and the entrees would be voted in? say - a thread has received over 30 votes of 4 stars or more - or something. then a mod would move that to 'classics' or something.

 

[Kalamos]

Don't worry dude
see the image attached 😉

Hehehehe...
Had some chocolate, felt better.

😉

perhaps, the other forum would be locked, and the entrees would be voted in? say - a thread has received over 30 votes of 4 stars or more - or something. then a mod would move that to 'classics' or something.

Eh, same prob as with replies; artists with a lot of friends would get those vote sooner, and you'd actually promote what we're trying to stave off: clannish behaviour.

...

Besides, I don't want to become a classic because ppl spend their time chatting on my threads.
Sure, that would be fun, but *real* classic get recognised by name alone.

As you said, BAC doesn't need ppl camping his threads, to get more exposure.

...

Dunno, I'm rambling on.
Guys, stop replying here. Start bumping out there.
Pick an artist you think you might like, maybe somebody you've never bothered to comment on, and start commenting now.

I'm actively supporting a few budding artists.
They are good, so they don't really need me to make any difference, but at least they are fairly new to the scene.

Pick one. Start bumping.

 

[iggy092]

Sweet! I do suck!

Well, i'm glad that's all cleared up.

Actually, it is. In fact, so is yours. Although the term, cack, is derogatory, I don't mean it as such. I simply mean that you meet the qualifications. Both of you have improved quite a bit over time, but your art is still very untrained When I say untrained, I mean you still have not mastered many basic techniques in drawing. Your "style" is not something you created as much as it is a reflection on your lack of training. In order to develop a true style, you must have a command of the fundamentals, otherwise, you are not truely creating anything as much as you are at the mercy of your limitations. As Sun TZu, the chinese warlord and philosopher wrote, to feign cowardice, one must master courage.
webmaster joe

ps...to be fair...I've been critiquing without having posted an example of my own work. Below is the very first picture I drew (as an adult) and the other is a quick geometric cartoon I drew and computer colored. There are several years between the two. Huuuuge difference. And I actually thought that 7of9 pic was good when I first drew it. What was I smoking!

 

[Lurker]

Threads like this are a great way to discourage people from posting art here. It looks like I made the right choice by not posting mine.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Well, i'm glad that's all cleared up.

Your art is what it is. No offense is meant. This is the honest critique any art editor would give you. You obviously have folks who like your work and that is no reflection on their taste (good or bad). If you're happy doing what you do, then more power to you. However, if you want to reach a level where you are a trained artist (whether through self or schooling) proficient at his craft, you're going to have to learn and master the fundamentals. Until then, you're just a doodler or scribbler with, I'm sure, plenty of drive, but no training. Look no further than my first work (or any artists for that matter) and then look at my work after training. Artists far superior to me have gone through the same mastering of fundamentals.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

Threads like this are a great way to discourage people from posting art here. It looks like I made the right choice by not posting mine.

If that is your choice, so be it. As an artist or someone wanting to be one, you need to develop a thicker skin and a realistic perspective of your own work. Even the best artist gets scathing reviews. If you let that eat at you, then you won't last long as an artist. The negatives will drive you away. Expecting encouragement is no better. What if you're ignored? To some, that is worse than negatives. It's a message saying, "You aren't even worth complaining about." And if you get nothing but encouragement, as many do, you develop a scewed view of your own abilities. Bottom line, if you want to be an artist, you need to learn how on many different levels. Each person learns their own way, but we all learn the same fundamental things.
webmaster joe

 

[Lurker]

Art is just a hobby I have. I do try to get better, but I'm not going to expect to be paid for it, ever. I just thought the forums would be a friendly atmosphere where everyone can post their work, if not, then I'll just leave it to the pros I guess.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Art is just a hobby I have. I do try to get better, but I'm not going to expect to be paid for it, ever. I just thought the forums would be a friendly atmosphere where everyone can post their work, if not, then I'll just leave it to the pros I guess.

Art is a hobby is no reason you can't be a good artist. I know plenty of friends who have never published a story or sold a piece of art and they put most pros to shame. They just have no real desire to become professional artists. But they are good and that comes from training. Something each is personally proud of. Keep in mind, that you can decide to post or not, but the response you get, when you post, is never a guarantee. Anytime you put your work in the public eye, professionally or amatuerly, you invite crtiticism.
To expect any less is unfair on your part. I encourage you to post, but I also encourage you to accept that fact.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

I'll just leave it to the pros I guess.

Pssst, hey you, come over here.

* Whispers conspiratively *

Wanna tell you a secret, man.
Real pros, don't bother with forums.
Real pros get rich.
Real pros draw like this:

http://img8.exs.cx/img8/7131/TRAPJAWsmallsubmision.jpg

...

This man can slap me around with a large trout, and I'm asking for more.

Since I don't draw like that, I have no right to tell ppl shit.
You can stay.
You can post.
You can chicken and run.
Your call.
Just don't blame it on me.

...

😉

 

[laughinggaszone]

Since I don't draw like that, I have no right to tell ppl shit.

Well, I don't draw like that, but I have no issues with telling ppl shit. 😉 People need to know shit. I draw well enough (and so do you) that I can give advice, but not well enough that I can't take it. No artist really does, no matter how good he or she is. To be honest, I have little patience with codling wanna be artists. You want to post, you don't want to post, it's up to you. Get some guts and show your stuff. If it gets rejected, work on it and come back. I got a stack of rejection letters for art submissions and novels (you always get more rejections than admissions). It's just part of being an artist and you can't let rejection keep you from creating.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Well, I don't draw like that, but I have no issues with telling ppl shit. 😉 People need to know shit.

I usually give solicited advice, only.
We already had probs with "generous" self-appointed critics, giving out totally unrequested heartfelt critiques, that could smash the strongest ego to minuscule fragments.

...

Besides, the guys are right: if it is just for fun, I am not going to burst ppl's collective bubble.

Publishers are much better at that.
Besides, they don't stalk ppl, telling them they'll never sell stuff ever.
They usually tell prospective artists how to get better, or cheaper.

Nobody risks being humped by a rabid critics...
And even then...
Please, mark my words, write them somewhere handy, commit them to heart.
In a system that works on visibility, even negative feedback is ultimately good feedback, because it gives you MORE exposure.

As you mentioned, being ignored is much worse.
And the real problem is not with ppl giving negative responses.
The problem is with ppl camping threads, and bumping them with idle banter.

I mean, nothing wrong with that, but bump other artists as well!
I cannot raise an army of skeleton fans, so my threads stay on top, and my ego feels warm and fuzzy.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Thank you for this thread. Its allowing people to be more honest, even if only as a group.

Its funny, actually. Back in the day this subject would be brought up, but it honestly seemed taboo back then and something you could get lynched for if you didn't have your groupe or clique backing you up. Fans, artists, and just your average user didn't seem prepared, mentally prepared to accept these truths that have been spoken here. Now, fast forward to today, and they are, they are prepared and they are ready. People are speaking out more, and the people who had something to say before are no longer alone, nor are they a minority. Their opinions are now held just as lofty as all the idle praise one could give an artist. Likewise, people aren't as sensitive as they used to be, and can take criticism alot better than people used to. I know this for a fact because I've been a part of this long enough to see the effects of time and change.

People grow this way. Threads like this both humble and encourage people and theres something to take away from it. Alot I used to say feels so validated right now, to me. Its just a shame it took some of you so long to catch up (or at least it LOOKS that way. If some of you guys always felt this way but never said anything then I'm sorry to hear that. Never displaying your true feelings on the matter must not have felt right). I feel like I don't have anything to apologize for since all of you are proving what I said to be true. This feels like deja vu and several of oyu are repeating my sentiments exactly.

Thank you for this thread. I'm sure it was an eye-opener for many, and a vote of assurance for others. I'm also glad to see people handling it in a civil manner.

Several people have come in here saying or joking this would become a flame and that has not only not happened, but it doesn't seem like it will. Years ago we wouldn't have dealt with it this well. Good form.