Cack =/= Art

[Kalamos]

Several people have come in here saying or joking this would become a flame and that has not only not happened, but it doesn't seem like it will. Years ago we wouldn't have dealt with it this well.

For the sake of completeness, years ago you told that guy he drew "Gollum's eye" to his chibi character, and then helped turning Gripped Chimp's celebratory thread into a flame fest.

Dave had to close threads like there was no tomorrow, and finally came up with the Decorum of Criticism, because ppl started calling you names, and he had to put a stop to it.

...

I remember telling you back then.
I'll repeat that now.
I see no point in bursting ppl's bubble.
Not out of generosity. Out of laziness.
I have no time to spare on amateurs.
I'm already looking after a bigger amateur. Myself.

And...
If I REALLY think somebody could use my help, I'll give support behind the scene.

Else...
I'll quietly let ppl blunder by, and I'll just mind my own business.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

For the sake of completeness, years ago you told that guy he drew "Gollum's eye" to his chibi character, and then helped turning Gripped Chimp's celebratory thread into a flame fest.

Dave had to close threads like there was no tomorrow, and finally came up with the Decorum of Criticism, because ppl started calling you names, and he had to put a stop to it.

...

I remember telling you back then.
I'll repeat that now.
I see no point in bursting ppl's bubble.
Not out of generosity. Out of laziness.
I have no time to spare on amateurs.
I'm already looking after a bigger amateur. Myself.

And...
If I REALLY think somebody could use my help, I'll give support behind the scene.

Else...
I'll quietly let ppl blunder by, and I'll just mind my own business.

Yes, I did tell someone that the character looked like it had Gollum eyes, and I did have a part in the flame you are refering to. These two things are irrelevant in the present, because everyone has moved on, I can only assume. Also, I look at other people's art differently than I did before, so instances such as the ones you refer to aren't necessarily important if thats not how I'd handle it now. Its also not a reference to what I'm refering to in this thread.

Yes, Dave did have to close some threads, but it was in the realization that I presented a point of view that was not yet tolerated in small doses. He had to do something not because I was under attack (if that was the case I'd be told to leave or not post if I cannot handle it, which you know I can handle it so its not a problem), but because it would become necessary and inevitable as the state of things were changing. He did create the Decorum sticky to tackle the question of critiquing. It gave people a clearer standard and understanding that had not been established up to that point. And really, I noticed people were starting to be more forthcoming with their replies as well, and this would hasten the need for official staff clarification. None of that could have happened if it was just me, nor would rules be made because of me (making rules because of one person would be ridiculous and would only serve to demostrate the effect one person can have on an entire website, which is not what you want to do). They would be made because of the realization that art is more than just posting and telling people how great it is and for both sides to be more considerate of the other. His posting that was an admittance to how things cannot be one-sided and to not criticize the other side for their opinion. He was trying to bridge a gap, and I'm sure we can all appriciate that. Its the realization that most in this thread right now are realizing and agreeing with eachother on. This is what I'm refering to- bridging the gap and respecting other people's opinions.

Be that as it may, right NOW we're talking about whats happening NOW, and I am seeing that most people here are on the same page as I am. That is all that I'm saying. I am seeing people say things now that only I would have been willing to. I see people admitting things that, back then, may have gotten them in trouble. I'm seeing people who would have opposed critiquing back then looking at it more favorably now. But now its not really an issue anymore and the artists aren't attacking back nor are the fans and the mentality of this all has evolved and matured. Its almost like this forum evolved. And I'm not sure how to feel about that other than be pleased with it.

The people here are more tolerant now. This is a good thing.

 

[Kalamos]

The people here are more tolerant now. This is a good thing.

The ppl here are different.
Different disposition.
Different persons altogether.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

The ppl here are different.
Different disposition.
Different persons altogether.

Many of them are different, yes.

I wouldn't say that its a different disposition entirely. I'm trying to give everyone credit here, rather than saying its only this way because a new batch of more tolerant people has come along. While that is undoubtedly true, its not the only reason.

The standards, ideals, and examples we set (in threads like this) are going to be carried down to new people as well. When people see how we roll here, they'll adjust themselves to that, either because they want to fit in or they see that its simply how its done. If they don't agree with how its done, then they're outcasting themselves and won't be given any more notice than a troll.

 

[laughinggaszone]

For the sake of completeness, years ago you told that guy he drew "Gollum's eye" to his chibi character, and then helped turning Gripped Chimp's celebratory thread into a flame fest.

Dave had to close threads like there was no tomorrow, and finally came up with the Decorum of Criticism, because ppl started calling you names, and he had to put a stop to it.

...

I remember telling you back then.
I'll repeat that now.
I see no point in bursting ppl's bubble.
Not out of generosity. Out of laziness.
I have no time to spare on amateurs.
I'm already looking after a bigger amateur. Myself.

And...
If I REALLY think somebody could use my help, I'll give support behind the scene.

Else...
I'll quietly let ppl blunder by, and I'll just mind my own business.

You live by your own philosophy. Personally, if it wasn't for bubble bursting artists willing to give me honest assesments, I would have never improved at the rate I did. I would have simply wandered aimlessly through the medium of drawing. If this site and the folks who make up its community decide that this will be a warm and fuzzy place for artists, where honest (but polite and respectful) will not be given for the sake of their fragile egos, then that is a true shame. It is a collective disservice to those artists, whether they want to turn pro or not.

As the internet has grown over the the years, I have seen a lot of these "fuzzy and warm" places show up as a backlash to the "cruel and cold" sites and blogs of the net. Neither of these two extremes is healthy. Onen offers only discouragement, while the other offers blind and ingenuine flattery and encouragement. Ideally, the best of both worlds is the healthiest and soundest philosophy.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

You live by your own philosophy.

Yeah. I guess so.
I think there are other, subtler ways to help ppl.
Waltzing in and blurting out in their face what's wrong about their art is... just not my current style.

Besides, I tried in the past to give out unsolicited advice on minor things, such as inking or smoothing lines.
Few ppl took notice. I stopped.
Life is tough enough.

Personally, if it wasn't for bubble bursting artists willing to give me honest assesments, I would have never improved at the rate I did.

They believed in the greater good of art.

Besides, it's not like I don't help ppl at all.
I just do so behind the scene. Sending sketches, infos, and so on.
You see a guy get suddenly better.
Maybe it was me lending support.

Sure, it's a gamble. They might get better than I am.
But I usually get to watch their progress, and in turn I get a bit better myself.

As the internet has grown over the the years, I have seen a lot of these "fuzzy and warm" places show up as a backlash to the "cruel and cold" sites and blogs of the net. Neither of these two extremes is healthy.

Guess so.

🙂

 

[laughinggaszone]

Besides, it's not like I don't help ppl at all.
I just do so behind the scene. Sending sketches, infos, and so on.
You see a guy get suddenly better.
Maybe it was me lending support.
🙂

You have to do it the way you feel comfortable. I have no issue with giving
fair and tactful advice, on occasion. I also tend to PM an artist, rather than
do laundry in public. Any kind of criticism can attract the unsavory critics.
What, in my opinions, is largely a waste of time for any artist intent on improving is casual flattery. Sure, it boosts the ego, but says little for the actual skill.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

I also tend to PM an artist, rather than do laundry in public.

Yep.
That's what I'm usually against, with unsolicited criticism.
No need to go public, when private will do.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Yep.
That's what I'm usually against, with unsolicited criticism.
No need to go public, when private will do.

Just remember, that is a tactful and diplomatic way of going about it.
As I mentioned to Lurker, you should never expect that, nor should
anyone be expected to voice a critique or criticism in that fashion.
The moment you put your work in the public eye, you invite criticism,
positive or negative. To simply say, "Look at my work. Praise it, but do
not voice any criticisms." No, that is unfair. If you choose to display it,
then you must accept the opinons and critiques that come your way.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

If you choose to display it,
then you must accept the opinons and critiques that come your way.

To some extent.
As they mentioned before, this is a fetish forum. Not art school.
Ppl choose to display stuff for the fun of it, not to be cut to ribbons by self-appointed critics.

I mean, good artists usually get some kind of recognition in the form of awards or commissions, or both.
Undeserved praise won't tip the balance too much.
And even technically poor pics can give new ideas.
I've learnt a lot from everybody, not just from ppl with a sound grasp of art.

Maybe it was a negative example, showing me what I should NOT do, but ppl need to try, before giving up.
I don't want to discourage anybody, even if they are going to post weak art.
Maybe they'll give me some kind of insight, and I'd owe them anyway.

The whole concept of "you suck, I must tell you" is just too straightforward for me.
Some guys show promise but lack ideas.
Others are weaker at drawing, but come up with great scenarios.

The forum is big enough to accomodate all kinds.

...

I mean, ppl keep posting pics of their significant ones.
Sometimes they look ok, sometimes they are gorgeous.
Sometimes they are a bit on the homely side.
I'm not going to tell their gf, or bf, looks like a tusked horror.

Same with art.

If you guys think some artists suck, bump the good ones.
Same effect. Less flaming.
Weaker artists will get the hint, and maybe they'll get better.
Complaining because "bad" artists get too much good feedback is like complaining because an ugly guy gets all the chicks.

Maybe there is more to that. More than meets the eye.
Maybe they deserve praise, and it's our fault not understanding why.

 

[laughinggaszone]

To some extent.
As they mentioned before, this is a fetish forum. Not art school.
Ppl choose to display stuff for the fun of it, not to be cut to ribbons by self-appointed critics.

Again, comes with the territory.

I mean, good artists usually get some kind of recognition in the form of awards or commissions, or both.

Alex Ross gets awards, I get a paycheck. Most artists recieve very little recognition.

Undeserved praise won't tip the balance too much.

It tips it enough that I think, without some solid techical critiquing, the artist can form an inflated opinion of his work.

The whole concept of "you suck, I must tell you" is just too straightforward for me.

True, that kind of opinion is nothing more than spiteful. It has no more place
in these forums. However, it isn't likely to ever go away. Not completely.

I mean, ppl keep posting pics of their significant ones.
Sometimes they look ok, sometimes they are gorgeous.
Sometimes they are a bit on the homely side.
I'm not going to tell their gf, or bf, looks like a tusked horror.

Same with art.

Not quite. Excluding plastic surgery, we are pretty much stuck with what we're dealt. Your arguement is steering back to the notion that art is simply "in the eye of the beholder" and that, as I have demonstrated, is not the case. Folks can like rajee's art (and it is art...I'll agree to anything being called art since that is just too big a quandry to get into) but you cannot argue that he has little grasp of the fundamentals of art that even the barest trained artist has. This is my point, when I say that there is a difference. It doesn't have anything to do with whether people like it or not. I like Bandito's stuff over yours, but you are a far superior artist in skill and mastery. Bandito simply pushes the right buttons. Do I wish his work was better? Hell yes!

Complaining because "bad" artists get too much good feedback is like complaining because an ugly guy gets all the chicks.

This thread was started by a member who had gotten frustrated with the whole notion of bad art flooding the forums. Yes, there are plenty of novice artists who qualify as "bad" and I would even say there are times when there is more technically "bad" art than good, but this is one of those isolated times when someone chose to voice their opinion. Threads like this come up once or twice a year. Not too bad.

Maybe there is more to that. More than meets the eye.
Maybe they deserve praise, and it's our fault not understanding why.

Again, you're comparing apples with oranges. Ugly guys get hot chicks because they have A)money or power or B)personality. Some have both. Women like hot guys, but they also like confident and charming men. You can look like Ron Jeremy, but date Angelina Jolie, if you are a confident and charming man. It's simple, but most guys don't get that or can't seem to swing either the confidence or charming part.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Again, comes with the territory.

Depends on the territory.
This is a fetish forum.
Calling things as we see them is a thing.
Getting anal because some kids have fun with [what we consider] weak art, is another.

You see: there is a fine line between giving insightful criticism, and trampling a stranger's ego.

Alex Ross gets awards, I get a paycheck. Most artists recieve very little recognition.

And you want to give weak artists even more exposure, by bumping their threads with unsolicited suggestions?

What you do over PM is none of my business.
But when you encourage users to focus on bad artists, so they can get better, well, you are actually making my job tougher.

Maybe I've got an over-active fantasy, but I can just picture it in my mind: one tries telling them how to paint eyes in a different way, and the whole thread turns into a flame-fest, with different parties of fanboys throwing muck at each others.
No, thanks.

You want to tell somebody how to get better, you begin with me.
You can bump each and every thread of mine, and tell me what's wrong with my stuff.
I want visibility, you give me visibility.
Besides, I get paychecks too, so my ego should be able to take the punishment without cringing too much.

Telling ppl to be more upfront only promotes strife.
In my humble opinion.

It tips it enough that I think, without some solid techical critiquing, the artist can form an inflated opinion of his work.

Maybe you should start criticising fans.
Not artists themselves.

Not quite. Excluding plastic surgery, we are pretty much stuck with what we're dealt. Your arguement is steering back to the notion that art is simply "in the eye of the beholder".

But some of our artists just do it for fun.
Not to get better.
You should recognise those who could use the advice, before handing it out.

Folks can like rajee's art (and it is art...I'll agree to anything being called art since that is just too big a quandry to get into) but you cannot argue that he has little grasp of the fundamentals of art that even the barest trained artist has.

I'm not arguing anything.
As long as he's having fun, I'm not going to kick him over and say "man, you should stop that".
Why on earth? Nobody is giving him my paychecks, he's not hurting me.
He actually bumps my threads, and he's being nice.

I don't want to become an arse, just because I've been drawing for longer than most, and I get money from it.
Ppl would start calling me a jerk.
And if they really have to, I'd rather be called a jerk for my opinions on politics, religion and culture.
NOT on pics.

I like Bandito's stuff over yours, but you are a far superior artist in skill and mastery. Bandito simply pushes the right buttons. Do I wish his work was better? Hell yes!

I've been drawing for magazines and museums.
I've learnt watching classic sculptures. I can restore medieval frescoes.
I've been studying art, history, archaeology, ethnology.

You should ask me why I do fetish art at all.
Not why you like Bandito's stuff over mine.

I had to learn how to draw all over again, to do fetish pics.
And I've been doing that for just 4 years.
4 years out of 30 spent drawing.
Why don't you tell ME how to push those buttons?
Easier task, and in turn I could teach other ppl how to get a better mastery of art.
I am actually good at teaching.
Been doing it for a part of my life.
And I wasn't teaching art.
I used to teach latin and history.
I have a rough idea on how to teach ppl hard stuff.

Again, you're comparing apples with oranges.

Not at all.
If you say Bandito can push the right buttons, he's like the ugly guy with a winning attitude.

Successful art is not just about being good with a pencil.
Else, as you mentioned, I'd be earning triple digits, and you wouldn't like Bandito's pics over mine.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Depends on the territory.
This is a fetish forum.
Calling things as we see them is a thing.
Getting anal because some kids have fun with [what we consider] weak art, is another.

You see: there is a fine line between giving insightful criticism, and trampling a stranger's ego.

Yes, and as an artist, you should get used to that line being crossed.
You can control your own actions, but you cannot control other people.

And you want to give weak artists even more exposure, by bumping their threads with unsolicited suggestions?

I don't want to "give" weak artists anything. My only suggestion was that
among the meaningless praise, we see some constructive and tactful criticisms and suggestions.

What you do over PM is none of my business.
But when you encourage users to focus on bad artists, so they can get better, well, you are actually making my job tougher.

How?

Maybe I've got an over-active fantasy, but I can just picture it in my mind: one tries telling them how to paint eyes in a different way, and the whole thread turns into a flame-fest, with different parties of fanboys throwing muck at each others.
No, thanks.

Pretty good chance. You do it or you don't. It's up to you. I can understand your reluctance.

You want to tell somebody how to get better, you begin with me.
You can bump each and every thread of mine, and tell me what's wrong with my stuff.
I want visibility, you give me visibility.
Besides, I get paychecks too, so my ego should be able to take the punishment without cringing too much.

Well, and no offesnse, I don't bump anybody. I purchase the persons art or I commision them. Your art is good. More than good, but it isn't my bag. If you are looking for exposure, that is largely self promotion.

Telling ppl to be more upfront only promotes strife.
In my humble opinion.

If they choose not to be tactful, yes. I'm not disagreeing with what all too often happens. I'm merely saying that keeping the status quo isn't helping a
lot of these doodlers and scribblers reach their potential.

Maybe you should start criticising fans.
Not artists themselves.

Who is more likely to adapt? The fan who makes casual (and often offensive comments) or the artist who develops an understanding of the fan and his
comments, and learns to roll with it. Yeah, I could lecture the fans, but lets deal with reality here. It's far wiser (and logistically feasable) for artists to
develop thicker skins than for fans to be polite, tactful and respectful.

But some of our artists just do it for fun.
Not to get better.
You should recognise those who could use the advice, before handing it out.

See, I really don't agree with the second half of that statment. I do believe that many are quite content to remain amatuer, but I also believe that they would like to improve. Now, whether they actually want to go through the hard work it takes to improve...that is another matter.

Also Kal, I think you should back off a little. You seem to be getting a little hot over this matter and directing your aggression at me. I did not start this thread. Nor do I even care if doodlers and scribblers post here. Largely, I ignore their posts, popping in, only occasionally, to see if they have improved. I merely joined this thread as an opportunity to offer a more constructive option than simply labelling scribblers and doodlers as "cack."

I'm not arguing anything.
As long as he's having fun, I'm not going to kick him over and say "man, you should stop that".
Why on earth? Nobody is giving him my paychecks, he's not hurting me.
He actually bumps my threads, and he's being nice.

Have I said stop? Again, Kal, you are running in a direction that I am not even in. Perhaps it's because I "commandeered" this thread that some folks
might think that I started it. I did not. Nor do I agree with the notion that these artists should stop.

I don't want to become an arse, just because I've been drawing for longer than most, and I get money from it.
Ppl would start calling me a jerk.
And if they really have to, I'd rather be called a jerk for my opinions on politics, religion and culture.
NOT on pics.

That's your choice. If you offer critical opinions in a respectful and tactful way, there is no reason anyone should have to call you a jerk.

I've been drawing for magazines and museums.
I've learnt watching classic sculptures. I can restore medieval frescoes.
I've been studying art, history, archaeology, ethnology.

You should ask me why I do fetish art at all.
Not why you like Bandito's stuff over mine.

Kal, while I'm sure your story is fascinating, it isn't relevant.
Why you draw the way you do or why you draw fetish content
has nothing to do with why I like Bandito's art over yours. And really,
why do I care why you draw fetish art? Is it important that I divine
the motivation? It's not going to make me like it any more or less.
No one really gives a shit why I draw cartoons more than real life. They just like the cartoons.

I had to learn how to draw all over again, to do fetish pics.
And I've been doing that for just 4 years.
4 years out of 30 spent drawing.
Why don't you tell ME how to push those buttons?

You want to push my buttons? Ok...throw in big tits, wild tickling,
sexual situations (or very suggestable ones) and strong chicks (superheroines,
secret agents, policewomen ect)

Not at all.
If you say Bandito can push the right buttons, he's like the ugly guy with a winning attitude.

Bandito is an up and comer because he offers what a lot of people like.
His style is actually more mainstream than yours. This is why a lot of
old style comic artists (80's comic book artists) find it harder to keep up. Their style just isn't what the majority are into. The public's taste are fickle and unless you adapt, you fall behind. Even the great painting masters had to
obey the same rules. If they weren't inventing some new avante guard style, they were imitating one.

Successful art is not just about being good with a pencil.
Else, as you mentioned, I'd be earning triple digits, and you wouldn't like Bandito's pics over mine.

True, but it is very important.

 

[Lurker]

Polite and respectful criticism is great, that's just not the vibe I was getting from this thread. I'm guessing that this site has been "warm and fuzzy" for so long, that people feel the need to go to the other extreme and make a rant. People do love extremes.

 

[Kalamos]

You can control your own actions, but you cannot control other people.

In the same vein, you cannot control ppl who keep praising weak art, just because they dig the genre, or the artist.

I don't see the need for this kind of searing hot truthfulness.
Then again, I tend to work on the situation, not by the principle.

How?

I said that before: the whole deal here is about exposure.
Open criticism promotes even higher posting rate, as artists and critics sort it out.
Weak art would stay under the limelight even longer.

Now, I'm not defending my position as if I had barbarians at the gates.
I'm just portraying a scenario I'd rather stave off.

Well, and no offense, I don't bump anybody.

But when you comment on somebody's pic, to give criticism, you effectively bump the thread.

Even when you mention somebody, anybody, you give exposure.
Criticism gives exposure.
Even more than praise.
Unless you go through PMs, something few ppl do.

...

For instance, a guy kept bumping Lou Panther's thread telling ppl just how much he disliked his art.
Remember that?
LP's thread was on top for days.

Ppl can spare just so much time.
There is no time or room for criticism.
The first thread on top should be the one users deem the best.
Not the most controversial one.

I'm merely saying that keeping the status quo isn't helping a lot of these doodlers and scribblers reach their potential.

I'm not promoting status quo.
Quite the opposite.

I just explained why *open* criticism is not the best course of action, IMHO.

Yeah, I could lecture the fans, but lets deal with reality here. It's a far wiser (and logistically feasable) for artists to
develop thicker skins than for fans to be polite, tactful and respectful.

I wasn't speaking of bad feedback.
I was speaking of GOOD feedback.
If we think weak artists get good feedback without deserving it, humbling them so they see the light is not effective.

We should go and bump good pics, and tell them, there, this is HOW things should be done.
And point their mistakes out over PMs.

You and Headsnap are suggesting "cold turkey".
I would promote good examples over bad ones.

Now, whether they actually want to go through the hard work it takes to improve...that is another matter.

Ask them.
Don't say "X, Y, Z suck as drawing artists".
If you care for them, ask if they'd like the advice from a pro.

Also Kal, I think you should back off a little. You seem to be getting a little hot over this matter and directing your aggression at me.

I am not directing my aggression at you.
I just happen to be *lively* in my responses.
I usually spend my energy talking about politics or religion.
But I got involved in this stuff and I'm just debating my point.


For example, the whole "it's a tough world, learn to cope with it" idea does not sound appealing to me.
Sounds like drill camp.

This is an adult site.
Some ppl come here for a thrill. Not to sift through art-related debates.
And I would love to debate art... but, seriously, ppl stop replying after a while.

You said you can't control users.
If you believe that, don't give them tools you can't take away, later.
Open criticism is a lethal weapon, in the wrong hands.
It's happened before.

Have I said stop?

The whole sentence should have sounded more like "stop drawing shit".

I like ppl to show some guts, but if you walk to some guy and tell him: "you suck, you should try harder", it feels deranged.

And I am not saying you would do that.
But give the green light on it, and I can see ppl doing that with boundless abandon.

That's your choice. If you offer critical opinions in a respectful and tactful way, there is no reason anyone should have to call you a jerk.

Well, I tried that, and it backfired.

😀

Kal, while I'm sure your story is fascinating, it isn't relevant.

Well, it's over now.
You won't bleed dead from boredom.
Hope it wasn't too painful to bear.

😉

No one really gives a shit why I draw cartoons more than real life. They just like the cartoons.

I think you forget the setting.
Ppl buying comics online don't get to know the artist.
Over a community forum, ppl DO get to know each others.
And if they get friends with somebody, they'll bump their threads out of friendship.

And this leads us back to the whole visibility argument.

The public's taste are fickle and
unless you adapt, you fall behind. Even the great painting masters had to
obey the same rules. If they weren't inventing some new avante guard style, they were imitating one.

I call it diversity. Ppl who dig Bandito's buy Bandito's.
Ppl who dig my stuff, buy my stuff.
Sure, I'd like to expand my "fan" base, but I don't want to change beyond recognition...

Besides, overlapping genres is not going to help.
Market can accomodate for just so many products for a given target crowd.

We are not talking about mainstream public.
We are talking about a 50.000-75.000 units strong community.

This is niche market...
We don't count sales by thousands.
Or do we?

😀

 

[greenapplesoda]

another problem we have is... well this isnt an art forum, people come here to show/promote their art, or, like me, just read.

btw i do draw stuff, just not tickling related (not easy to hide that stuff around on my computer, or sketch book). i post my work in another forums to get comments and critisizms from the more experienced. the comments people there recieves are way more harsh than just "oh i think you have some human anatomy, and here's how to fix it*attached the pic, with red marks*", which i did once after the artist said "constructive critisizm welcome", and then i was called "pathetic" for "bashing" the piece.

maybe we should open another section? just for c&c?

 

[laughinggaszone]

Polite and respectful criticism is great, that's just not the vibe I was getting from this thread. I'm guessing that this site has been "warm and fuzzy" for so long, that people feel the need to go to the other extreme and make a rant. People do love extremes.

Yes, sometimes the need to rant overcomes people . As far as the tome of this thread. It's a lot more civil than many of it's predecessors. Hence, it has not been locked. Also, try to remember that these are just typed words. If the meaning or intention is ambiguous, don't assume it's negative. I cannot tell you how many times this very thing has happened to me and that I have also been guilty of. When in doubt, ask, don't assume a malign spectre in the words.
webmsater joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

In the same vein, you cannot control ppl who keep praising weak art, just because they dig the genre, or the artist.

I never said you could. I merely said that their praise can be harmful.
It's unlikely they will stop praising, or simply add more meaningful comments
to the praise. Hence, I suggests artists add those meaningful comments.
Hence, the best of both worlds, praise and comment.

I said that before: the whole deal here is about exposure.
Open criticism promotes even higher posting rate, as artists and critics sort it out.
Weak art would stay under the limelight even longer.

Now, I'm not defending my position as if I had barbarians at the gates.
I'm just portraying a scenario I'd rather stave off.



But when you comment on somebody's pic, to give criticism, you effectively bump the thread.

Even when you mention somebody, anybody, you give exposure.
Criticism gives exposure.
Even more than praise.
Unless you go through PMs, something few ppl do.

Yes, but to say bad press is better than no press is inaccurate.
Particularly in a community where reviews can sway a person to
buy or not...to look or not.

...

For instance, a guy kept bumping Lou Panther's thread telling ppl just how much he disliked his art.
Remember that?
LP's thread was on top for days.

Yes, I recall that thread. It's arguable whether or not that exposure was beneficial to Lou.

I wasn't speaking of bad feedback.
I was speaking of GOOD feedback.
If we think weak artists get good feedback without deserving it, humbling them so they see the light is not effective.

Again, I'm not interested in humbling them. It's not their fault that folks casually praise their art. This is why I feel that a balance should be struck with tactful criticism.

You and Headsnap are suggesting "cold turkey".
I would promote good examples over bad ones.

Again, I am promoting no such thing. I am promoting a balance.

Ask them.
Don't say "X, Y, Z suck as drawing artists".
If you care for them, ask if they'd like the advice from a pro.

First, I don't feel I have to ask them, to give an opinion. They post it, they
open themselves to criticism. However, if i'm going to criticise, i want to balance it and not merely dash their ego. Once again, a blance.

I am not directing my aggression at you.
I just happen to be *lively* in my responses.
I usually spend my energy talking about politics or religion.
But I got involved in this stuff and I'm just debating my point.

Well, your liveliness is definately picking a target. 😉

For example, the whole "it's a tough world, learn to cope with it" idea does not sound appealing to me.
Sounds like drill camp.

But it is a difficult world and we do have to deal with it.

This is an adult site.
Some ppl come here for a thrill. Not to sift through art-related debates.
And I would love to debate art... but, seriously, ppl stop replying after a while.

I wasn't looking for rolling threads of arguement, simply a little more substance to go along with the fluffy praise.

You said you can't control users.
If you believe that, don't give them tools you can't take away, later.
Open criticism is a lethal weapon, in the wrong hands.
It's happened before.

It's not something for us to give or take. You will always have rabble rousers who abuse the tool. We need more even keeled and sensible people to drown out the rabble with clarity of tact and diplomacy througha balance of criticism and encouragement.

The whole sentence should have sounded more like "stop drawing shit".

I like ppl to show some guts, but if you walk to some guy and tell him: "you suck, you should try harder", it feels deranged.

And I am not saying you would do that.
But give the green light on it, and I can see ppl doing that with boundless abandon.

Yes, people will do that (I don't). But that is the right of the individual. The only way to allow the right and prevent or (more realistically) lessen the number of vile criticisms.

 

[Kalamos]

Yes, but to say bad press is better than no press is inaccurate.
Particularly in a community where reviews can sway a person to buy or not...to look or not.

Maybe it's me, but I think you are mixing things up.
Giving a bad review is a thing: "don't buy. This guy doesn't deliver. It's a scam".
And even then, somebody will give a peek, out of spite or curiosity.

With threads, it is another matter.
The longer a thread stays on top, and the great chance users stand to be exposed to it.
Even if you are bashing somebody.

Bear with me, follow my example.
You have artist X and artist Y's threads.
They are both selling ezines.

You consider X's skills lower than Y's.
You start commenting on X's thread, giving him advice.
Y's only gets normal fan response.
After a month, Y's thread slips to page 2.
X's thread is still on top of page 1.
Who's reaching more prospective customers?

This is my gripe with open criticism.
It is just the other side of camping threads with fluffy banter.
Just worse, because you add criticism to fanboy comments.

Yes, I recall that thread. It's arguable whether or not that exposure was beneficial to Lou.

Well, he caters to a very specific audience.
If somebody said: bah, that comic suck, no plot, just naked bimbos showing off their boobs, what would you do?

This is why I feel that a balance should be struck with tactful criticism.

I believe in balance too, but we claim we have a problem with weak artists getting too much exposure.
You'd fight that by giving them EVEN more exposure with criticism.

Do you see my point?
Ok, we can say that some bad press is actually bad.
But MOST bad press is just press. You get to show your stuff to more ppl, ppl that would have never heard about you otherwise.

I got to star in a fetish video because I was replying to a flame!
It would have never happened without a flame to begin with.
That is why you shouldn't give more chances to shine to ppl you consider weak.
This is not balance. This is feeding mediocrity.

And no, I'm not speaking of anybody in particular.
But I want[ed] my share of the exposure pie too.

😉

They post it, they open themselves to criticism. However, if i'm going to criticise, i want to balance it and not merely dash their ego.

I would tend to disagree on that.
I am afraid we have to agree to disagree.

Well, your liveliness is definately picking a target. 😉

Nah, you're thick skinned.
Of you would have never replied to this thread to begin with.
Don't you know that posting comments opens itself to being replied upon? 😉

...

😀

But it is a difficult world and we do have to deal with it.

C'mon, what bit you today? 🙂
It's a tough life, ok, but I see no sense in making it tougher somebody else, to balance things out.

It's not something for us to give or take. You will always have rabble rousers who abuse the tool. We need more even keeled and sensible people to drown out the rabble with clarity of tact and diplomacy througha balance of criticism and encouragement.

I don't buy this argument much.
First, how are you going to get "sensible" ppl to drown the rabble out.
Second, who's to tell rabble from misguided critics?
Third, maybe I got a cold, but it smells like crusade.
My alignment deters me from taking part in it.

😉

Yes, people will do that (I don't). But that is the right of the individual. The only way to allow the right and prevent or (more realistically) lessen the number of vile criticisms.

Now, I don't want to ramble off, but sounds like the "guns don't kill" argument.

Not every right is a good right.
Not every opinion is meaningful.
This is not about rights. It is about avoiding clutter.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Maybe it's me, but I think you are mixing things up.
Giving a bad review is a thing: "don't buy. This guy doesn't deliver. It's a scam".
And even then, somebody will give a peek, out of spite or curiosity.

With threads, it is another matter.
The longer a thread stays on top, and the great chance users stand to be exposed to it.
Even if you are bashing somebody.

Bear with me, follow my example.
You have artist X and artist Y's threads.
They are both selling ezines.

You consider X's skills lower than Y's.
You start commenting on X's thread, giving him advice.
Y's only gets normal fan response.
After a month, Y's thread slips to page 2.
X's thread is still on top of page 1.
Who's reaching more prospective customers?

This is my gripe with open criticism.
It is just the other side of camping threads with fluffy banter.
Just worse, because you add criticism to fanboy comments.

After a certain number of posts, the majority of the community only scan the posts. They don't have time (as has been pointed out) to read 10 pages of back and forth. Getting 10 pages of negative press may seem like a god send for exposure, but at the end of the day, it's all BAd and will influence the response to the artists next project. This is very evident when one is selling a video or e-comic. When it comes to simply posting art, its more academic, since it doesn't cost anything to look, 10 pages of bad posts can produce exposure, but there is no guarantee that it will either pan out or last.

Well, he caters to a very specific audience.
If somebody said: bah, that comic suck, no plot, just naked bimbos showing off their boobs, what would you do?

honestly, not much, since it's just an opinion, based on taste. You're bound to get them. Only when they get out of hand, which sometimes happens when a group of people decide to attack an artist. At that point, it's a moderator issue, since it's more a personal attack disguised as a 'critique."

I believe in balance too, but we claim we have a problem with weak artists getting too much exposure.
You'd fight that by giving them EVEN more exposure with criticism.

No, the person who started this thread made that statment. Mine is that those artists should get more balanced comments, which I believe will not
only encourage, but assist in their growth as artists.

Do you see my point?

Do you see mone? 🙂

Ok, we can say that some bad press is actually bad.
But MOST bad press is just press. You get to show your stuff to more ppl, ppl that would have never heard about you otherwise.

I got to star in a fetish video because I was replying to a flame!
It would have never happened without a flame to begin with.
That is why you shouldn't give more chances to shine to ppl you consider weak.
This is not balance. This is feeding mediocrity.

As I said, it depends on the situation. You had a posotive experience from
negative press. I have personally experienced and witnessed the opposite.
You cannot count on a positive outcome. It's an "urban legend" that any press is good. People just say it, like it's a fact without actually having had any practical experience.

C'mon, what bit you today? 🙂
It's a tough life, ok, but I see no sense in making it tougher somebody else, to balance things out.

Nothing. I'm a pragmatist. the world is what it is.

I don't buy this argument much.
First, how are you going to get "sensible" ppl to drown the rabble out.
Second, who's to tell rabble from misguided critics?
Third, maybe I got a cold, but it smells like crusade.
My alignment deters me from taking part in it.

😉

It isn't our job to get. You lead by example. If it doesn't work,
then it doesn't work. I do not believe in censoring the rabble (unless
they are personally attacking the poster) and do believe that people
are capable of being civil, if they try.

Now, I don't want to ramble off, but sounds like the "guns don't kill" argument.

Guns DON'T kill people. Bullets kill people. 🙂 Seriously, I don't blame guns
for deaths anymore than I blame McDonalds for obesity. I'm not a proponent
for the NRA, but at the same time, a gun is nothing more than a misused tool.

Not every right is a good right.
Not every opinion is meaningful.
This is not about rights. It is about avoiding clutter.

So we are full circle. Let's keep the status quo. Let's keep the peace and avoid the "trouble" of differing opinions. Moderators do this all the time. It's why they exist. Necessary evil? I sometimes wonder. You and i can decide for
ourselves what is right and meaningful, but I question our right to decide it for others.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

-> Webmaster Joe.

Ok. You've shown me your point.
I can accept that, ultimately, bad press is just that. Bad.

But raw exposure is raw exposure. You can't produce it from thin air.
You'd take it away from Y and you'd give it to X.
Y would lose even more visibility. And X would only get bad press.

It would be even worse than the current status quo.
And it would be like choosing for other ppls anyway.

...

Ok, maybe you'd be more subtle than that.
You'd comment on decent artists only, helping them so they get better and reach their full potential.

But ultimately, you reward somebody for trying hard.
Not for being good.

I mean, how is this going to help keeping "cack" down?
By forcing it down everybody's throat, so we have to bear with fanboys AND critics?

 

[laughinggaszone]

-> Webmaster Joe.

Ok. You've shown me your point.
I can accept that, ultimately, bad press is just that. Bad.

But raw exposure is raw exposure. You can't produce it from thin air.
You'd take it away from Y and you'd give it to X.
Y would lose even more visibility. And X would only get bad press

It would be even worse than the current status quo.
And it would be like choosing for other ppls anyway.

I don't agree. Yes, that can apply to a macrocosm, but this forum is
not a macrocosm. If it's anything, it's a microcosm and your exposure
is only limitedly affected by the flux of other artists. You are more likely
to see a more macrocosm effect if you were selling your work, as you would
want as much exposure as possible to maximize the highest number of buyers
who are far lower than actual viewers.

...

Ok, maybe you'd be more subtle than that.
You'd comment on decent artists only, helping them so they get better and reach their full potential.

But ultimately, you reward somebody for trying hard.
Not for being good.

Do we? Society acknowledges trying, but rewards those that do well.
It's a matter of resources. Society does not have the resources to reward
everyone, so it rewards those worth promoting. Those that have the greatest
chance to proliferate. Is it fair? For society, yes. Personally, I try to offer
to as many artists as I can handle. Like society, my resources are not infinant, but unlike society, I don't believe life has to be unfair.

I mean, how is this going to help keeping "cack" down?
By forcing it down everybody's throat, so we have to bear with fanboys AND critics?

Kal, Kal, you need to stop mixing me up with the guy who started this thread.
I never once called for a crack down on anyone. I merely suggested that
these artists could be better served by having more balanced comments.
I don't want them to stop posting, nor do I call for the casual posters to stop
posting. I have simply suggested that they put a little more substance and comment to the fluff.

 

[Kalamos]

You are more likely
to see a more macrocosm effect if you were selling your work, as you would want as much exposure as possible to maximize the highest number of buyers who are far lower than actual viewers.

Well... I *am* selling my work, after all.

😀

We, both, are.

Society acknowledges trying, but rewards those that do well.

But we just agreed that TMF isn't society.
TMF is a limited micro-cosm and works by different rules.
It rewards visibility with more visibility.

Take this very thread: as long as we debate, it stays on top, more ppl get to see it and, maybe, reply to it.
It's got more hits and replies than many other legit art threads.

Just have a look a the forum list, by hits/replies.
Some of the most visited ones don't even have a pic inside.
Just a catchy title.
Where is the reward in that?

Kal, Kal, you need to stop mixing me up with the guy who started this thread.
I never once called for a crack down on anyone. I merely suggested that
these artists could be better served by having more balanced comments.
...
I have simply suggested that they put a little more substance and comment to the fluff.

Well, I wasn't really replying to you, but commenting on the general idea.

Besides, if we assume that some art is cack, telling weak artists that they can get better if they try harder, is effectively encouraging them to draw MORE...

😉

 

[laughinggaszone]

But we just agreed that TMF isn't society.
TMF is a limited micro-cosm and works by different rules.
It rewards visibility with more visibility.

Take this very thread: as long as we debate, it stays on top, more ppl get to see it and, maybe, reply to it.
It's got more hits and replies than many other legit art threads.

Just have a look a the forum list, by hits/replies.
Some of the most visited ones don't even have a pic inside.
Just a catchy title.
Where is the reward in that?

I don't know? you tell me. There is no guaranteed reward. Just because
people see something doesn't mean they get involved in it, care about it or buy into it. Many a hyped movie that bombed out can attest to that.

Well, I wasn't really replying to you, but commenting on the general idea.

Besides, if we assume that some art is cack, telling weak artists that they can get better if they try harder, is effectively encouraging them to draw MORE...

😉

Not quite. It's encouraging them to improve. More than likely, they'll continue to draw more, reguardless. It would be better to add improvement to that plethora of postings.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Just because people see something doesn't mean they get involved in it, care about it or buy into it.

But the odds are higher, if you stay on top longer.
And with free art, hits and replies constitute the only currency.

You see, this is not just about economy.
This is also about ego-boosting.
The reward is being seen and replied to, in itself.
And if you're also catering to a paying audience, each reply effectively works as a free ad too.

That is why Chimp, for instance, was so mad about ppl camping threads with fluffy banter.

🙂

Not quite. It's encouraging them to improve. More than likely, they'll continue to draw more, reguardless. It would be better to add improvement to that plethora of postings.

Hehehe... yeah, in some case it might actually help.
"If they really have to draw, they better get good at it".

...

I stated my reservations and ideas.
Now, only future can say.

😉