Cack =/= Art

[scorpionldr]

I have never posted here, yet i've been looking at the forum since it started way back when. Though, this whole thing right here got even me to respond. I have to somewhat agree with scorpionldr.
Who really cares what people post? I mean it does get annoying seeing the same bad drawings each time, but you must admit that they slowly improve. Have we all forgotten the point of having a artwork forum? It's to post art. Said and done, and if people don't like your artwork, get better, or quit. I like what I like, and I don't put any artist down, because in perspective, atleast they are kind enough to post their drawings in the first place.

That is all, just needed to get that out there.

lol well i mean....I've seen cack posted by people that state deliberately that "it's my style"....and you and everyone else can see that it's crap that always looks the same....it is annoying in the fact that there are people out there that don't intend to improve, but it just comes down to looking and going "oh, this sn....yea, crap" and moving on after a while.

 

[keeganbarton]

lol well i mean....I've seen cack posted by people that state deliberately that "it's my style"....and you and everyone else can see that it's crap that always looks the same....it is annoying in the fact that there are people out there that don't intend to improve, but it just comes down to looking and going "oh, this sn....yea, crap" and moving on after a while.

It has been like that for me lately, though once in a blue moon i'll click on the more repetitive posts just to see how they've been doing in the month i've been ignoring them. Usually just the same, but, alas, what can be done but hope?

I'm not one for putting anyone down though, because, I suck at drawing myself.

Atleast I don't pollute with it.


Oh, and I added you on myspace scorpionldr, just because we all need more friends on myspace...
I'm sure you'll know me when you see the friend addition link.

 

[Boone]

Joe's said most of what I thought... there are many creative solutions to this IMO

How about designating a forum asshole and a forum carebear, one that replies the harshest possible way to all art, the other the nicest possible way, and it is aggreed that we don't comment on their comments... or we could have one person do both... or everyone could do both

OR we could make a separate forum where people who are willing to hear constructive criticism could go, (where criticism would be welcomed rather than shunned) and subtly suggest to certain artists that we'd like to criticise to post their work there. At that point it'd be entirely up to them, so "If you can't take the heat..." stay out of the "Suggestions for improvement" forum,or we could make it a topic tag --CC wlecome-- or whatnot

That way people who are sensitive can keep posting their work in the main forum and those who can tough it up and are curious can improve their work through suggestions while ignoring the blatantly spiteful ones

This may not help with newcomers and cack artists as they would probably avoid that forum tag or forum, but they would have to face the reality of people suggesting to them that they "post in the constructive criticism" forum

There's no simple solution to this, as human nature and variety of personalities provide for plenty of chaos, misunderstanding and conflict... and no utopian situation comes around without some very restrictive rules when dealing with a large enough population

Feel Free to constructively criticize this post 😀

 

[Laugh704]

Just my 2 cents..

All this banter and ranting is exactly why I never post art on the TMF anymore. It's not the criticism that counts. What's more important is how the artist deals with it and what, if anything, the artist does with it.

Let us not forget this is a FUN forum. It's not a professional art school. It's not meant as a professional artist outlet. If you are a professional and wish to post here - fine. Since the consensus is that only maybe 5 or 6 artists here are actually professionals, why not restrict it to only those artists? That's the purpose of this thread isn't it? To 'eliminate' bad artists, clutter and 'cack'? It's not like people come here to have fun and share with friends and actually have a good time. Right?

 

[Kalamos]

Just
Let us not forget this is a FUN forum. It's not a professional art school. It's not meant as a professional artist outlet.

Exactly my point.

Since the consesus is that only maybe 5 or 6 artists here are actually professionals, why not restrict it to only those artists?
Right?

Wrong.
Of course.
I would never want the art forum to be restricted to a few hand-picked individuals with a special clearance.
There are several good reason, not to.

And how are we going to choose them, anyway?
We let mods choose?
We take a poll?
We let ppl duel to death?
Now, that would be fun...

 

[Boone]

I just realised that Rajee saw his work being called cack and replied "I take that as a challenge!"

That is a great way to respond to that... shows that he's got the guts to improve

props to rajee on his attitude

 

[JPC_Poserartist]

When I first posted my reply I had only skimmed this topic; now after reading through it all I think I understand the issue better.

While I've been a very long-time lurker @ TMF, I haven't really been around the Art Forum that much. I still don't really see the problem (but that might be due to my lack of experience with this particular Forum). Are people who are contributing low-quality artwork (in any form) doing so on such a massive scale that it overshadows everything else (of which migh be higher-quality material)? Pardon the stupid question.

And I totally agree; I assume this forum is for fun and enjoyment, and not solely a place for top-quality artwork. Is the so-called "cack" really that rampant?

JPC

 

[laughinggaszone]

Just my 2 cents..

All this banter and ranting is exactly why I never post art on the TMF anymore. It's not the criticism that counts. What's more important is how the artist deals with it and what, if anything, the artist does with it.

Let us not forget this is a FUN forum. It's not a professional art school. It's not meant as a professional artist outlet. If you are a professional and wish to post here - fine. Since the consesus is that only maybe 5 or 6 artists here are actually professionals, why not restrict it to only those artists? That's the purpose of this thread isn't it? To 'eliminate' bad artists, clutter and 'cack'? It's not like people come here to have fun and share with friends and actually have a good time. Right?

You're right, it is more important how the artist deals with it. In my opinion, you are not dealing with it very well. You cannot realistically expect people to not offer opinons and criticisms. Reguardless of whether or not this is a professional artist's forum. It just won't happen. A more realistic expectation is to encourage more meaningful and thoughtful criticisms. I have sai dthis many times, if you put your work in the public eye, expect criticism. To expect any less is unfair of YOU, the artist.

The suggestion that this thread was created to "eliminate" bad artists is yet another indication that artists need to develop thicker skins. No where in this thread has ANYONE suggested this. You have merely interpreted it to the farthest negative extreme. The true purpose of this thread was simply to someone voicing their annoyance at the large amount of unskilled art and the casual praise that feeds it. The responses, largely, were suggestions on ways to make those casual feedbacks more meaningful and tactful. If there is any "elimination" it is one of growth, where unskilled artists become skilled artists through constructive feedback, not casual praise or derogatory criticism.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

I just realised that Rajee saw his work being called cack and replied "I take that as a challenge!"

That is a great way to respond to that... shows that he's got the guts to improve

props to rajee on his attitude

I agree. It is much better than to simply stop posting, which some artists have suggested they have done. This suggests that they can't accept criticism, where Rajee can.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

Is the so-called "cack" really that rampant?

JPC

Actually, yeah. Piece for piece, there is more unskilled work, what some refer to as "cack" or "crap", than skilled work. Personally, it doesn't bother me. I can ignore it and just look at what I want, but there is more unskilled art than skilled art. I'd like to see that change. I'd like to see those unskilled artists develop skills. This is not going to happen with casual praise.
webmaster joe

 

[Laugh704]

You're right, it is more important how the artist deals with it. In my opinion, you are not dealing with it very well. You cannot realistically expect people to not offer opinons and criticisms. Reguardless of whether or not this is a professional artist's forum. It just won't happen. A more realistic expectation is to encourage more meaningful and thoughtful criticisms. I have sai dthis many times, if you put your work in the public eye, expect criticism. To expect any less is unfair of YOU, the artist.

The suggestion that this thread was created to "eliminate" bad artists is yet another indication that artists need to develop thicker skins. No where in this thread has ANYONE suggested this. You have merely interpreted it to the farthest negative extreme. The true purpose of this thread was simply to someone voicing their annoyance at the large amount of unskilled art and the casual praise that feeds it. The responses, largely, were suggestions on ways to make those casual feedbacks more meaningful and tactful. If there is any "elimination" it is one of growth, where unskilled artists become skilled artists through constructive feedback, not casual praise or derogatory criticism.
webmaster joe

If you bothered reading the latter of my post, you now realize the suggestion of 'posting only professional artists work' was totally being sarcastic. As Kirk said in 'Wrath of Khan', "How we deal with death is just as important as how we deal with life." I just don't like to lose. Like Kirk, I simply changed the conditions of the test.

 

[laughinggaszone]

If you bothered reading the latter of my post, you now realize the suggestion of 'posting only professional artists work' was totally being sarcastic. As Kirk said in 'Wrath of Khan', "How we deal with life is just as important as how we deal with death." I just don't like to lose. Like Kirk, I simply changed the conditions of the test.

Please, no Star Trek metaphors.

 

[Laugh704]

I agree. It is much better than to simply stop posting, which some artists have suggested they have done. This suggests that they can't accept criticism, where Rajee can.
webmaster joe

Criticism is but a subjective opinion based on individual scales. For anyone to take such opinions seriously at the sources involved they should seek immediate help. When someone chooses not to fight it sometimes means they choose peace. It doesn't always mean they can't take a punch as your reference implies.

 

[JPC_Poserartist]

Actually, yeah. Piece for piece, there is more unskilled work, what some refer to as "cack" or "crap", than skilled work. Personally, it doesn't bother me. I can ignore it and just look at what I want, but there is more unskilled art than skilled art. I'd like to see that change. I'd like to see those unskilled artists develop skills. This is not going to happen with casual praise.
webmaster joe

Ok, I had no idea. I agree; it would be great if those lacking skills could improve, and yes, people shouldn't be hesitant to give HONEST criticism (and not sugar coat it). But I also share a similar view....if I click on a new thread to check out the art, and it's just not to my liking, I do one of two things: I hit the back button and totally ignore it/move on, or if I'm able to offer some helpful advice/criticism, I'll do so. You really can't go wrong doing either.

JPC

 

[laughinggaszone]

Criticism is but a subjective opinion based on individual scales.

Sorry, that is relativist BS. Opinions are opinions, critiques are critiques.
If you read back to my earliest post in this thread, you'll see where the two
differ. A critique can be objective and based solely on the skill level that
any artist must master to be able to call their work a true creation and not simply an artifact of their inefficiencies.

For anyone to take such opinions seriously at the sources involved they should seek immediate help. When someone chooses not to fight it sometimes means they choose peace. It doesn't always mean they can't take a punch as your reference implies.

As far as the peaceful response. Again, BS. A peaceful response is taking it and continuing to post your work. By stopping, you are doing exactly what you claim should require them to "seek immediate help." You are letting the opinion decide for you. That isn't peaceful or argumentative...it's just giving up.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

I do one of two things: I hit the back button and totally ignore it/move on, or if I'm able to offer some helpful advice/criticism, I'll do so. You really can't go wrong doing either.

JPC

Well, the latter of the two leaves nothing but casual praise, which feeds
the unskilled artist, but does not nourish her. So, you can go wrong by simply doing nothing. But it is a daunting task. Most of us don't want to take the time to give meaningful criticism to every unskilled artist on the forum. But if they are going to grow, that is what needs to be done. Otherwise, look foward to endless unskilled art with posts of meaningless praise that spur more unskilled art.
webmaster joe

 

[Laugh704]

Sorry, that is relativist BS. Opinions are opinions, critiques are critiques.
If you read back to my earliest post in this thread, you'll see where the two
differ. A critique can be objective and based solely on the skill level that
any artist must master to be able to call their work a true creation and not simply an artifact of their inefficiencies.




As far as the peaceful response. Again, BS. A peaceful response is taking it and continuing to post your work. By stopping, you are doing exactly what you claim should require them to "seek immediate help." You are letting the opinion decide for you. That isn't peaceful or argumentative...it's just giving up.
webmaster joe

If you hit your head on a brick wall enough times you will eventually make a very small indention. I simply choose to go around the wall and avoid the needless headache. To each their own.

I think you might be getting the TMF confused with a professional art forum with real professional artists. You might find that here, but in a very small percentage. Loosen up and try having fun here.

 

[ngauntjsmith]

I think a big part of the problem is that "underdeveloped" artwork sorta creeps people out.

This is an adult forum. When I see a crayon-level drawing fill my screen, I feel embarrassed to have displayed that on my computer, and sort of creepy. It would be like going to a porn site and downloading a 12-year-old's pencil drawing of a naked woman. Yeeeeeeeesh.

I know that's unfair of me to associate bad art (and bad grammar) with someone too young to be here, but I think a lot of us react that way reflexively. And we have a policy of warning people if they're going to download/view something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Article subjects denote */f, */m, nudity, so you know in advance if you're about to see a huge cock on your screen.

See, it isn't a matter of people being snobbish and picky, it's a matter of people feeling uncomfortable seeing certain things without warning.

 

[laughinggaszone]

If you hit your head on a brick wall enough times you will eventually make a very small indention. I simply choose to go around the wall and avoid the needless headache. To each their own.

Your analogy is flawed. The wall you speak of is not indestructable, nor are we hitting it with our "heads." Suggesting that the injury incurred is not worth the gains made. You can choose to side step an arguement, an issue or a problem, but that does not make that choice a peaceful one, ipso facto. More often, it's simply the lazy choice of avoiding the problem and letting it exist rather than dealing with it.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

I think a big part of the problem is that "underdeveloped" artwork sorta creeps people out.

This is an adult forum. When I see a crayon-level drawing fill my screen, I feel embarrassed to have displayed that on my computer, and sort of creepy. It would be like going to a porn site and downloading a 12-year-old's pencil drawing of a naked woman. Yeeeeeeeesh.

I know that's unfair of me to associate bad art (and bad grammar) with someone too young to be here, but I think a lot of us react that way reflexively. And we have a policy of warning people if they're going to download/view something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Article subjects denote */f, */m, nudity, so you know in advance if you're about to see a huge cock on your screen.

See, it isn't a matter of people being snobbish and picky, it's a matter of people feeling uncomfortable seeing certain things without warning.

True, and we don't know the age of many of these artists. Most are adults, but with no formal training. At the same time, you might be suprised to know that a number of astonishing pieces are actually done by under age artists.
webmaster joe

 

[moonknight80200]

Sorry, that is relativist BS. Opinions are opinions, critiques are critiques.
A critique can be objective and based solely on the skill level that
any artist must master to be able to call their work a true creation and not simply an artifact of their inefficiencies.

Well said.

If you post your stuff in a public forum of any sort (whether its here, or deviantart, or a fan fiction forum, or whatever) you cannot realistically expect every single response to be enthusiastic and positive.

 

[Laugh704]

Your analogy is flawed. The wall you speak of is not indestructable, nor are we hitting it with our "heads." Suggesting that the injury incurred is not worth the gains made. You can choose to side step an arguement, an issue or a problem, but that does not make that choice a peaceful one, ipso facto. More often, it's simply the lazy choice of avoiding the problem and letting it exist rather than dealing with it.
webmaster joe

To each their own. We agree to disagree. Avoiding useless nonsense is sometimes the best way of dealing with it.

 

[laughinggaszone]

To each their own. We agree to disagree. Avoiding useless nonsense is sometimes the best way of dealing with it.

Only if it's useless nonesense.
webmaster joe

 

[ngauntjsmith]

Sorry, that is relativist BS. Opinions are opinions, critiques are critiques.
If you read back to my earliest post in this thread, you'll see where the two
differ. A critique can be objective and based solely on the skill level that
any artist must master to be able to call their work a true creation and not simply an artifact of their inefficiencies.

Right.

If people think a drawing is awful, it's probably not a disagreement over subjective matters of taste. It's probably objective matters of skill, like the dude being utterly unable to draw a face.

We get this BS argument in other arts too. Some dude sings off-key, and when confronted about it he says that he's applying "artistic license." No, it's just singing off-key. Or you're playing music in G major and some dude on a guitar strums along in B minor, and when you correct him he says, "yeah, those chords give it an interesting sound." Like screwing up is a style.

Some people just cannot accept that they lack technical skill, or that you need technical skill before you can produce art.

Plus, let's face it: this is not an art gallery, it's the TMF. It's an adult web site. Your goal is to produce drawings of erotic value, which means people actually have to like it on a visceral level. That makes for a much more concrete and very objective standard of whether a drawing is "good."

Ng

 

[laughinggaszone]

We get this BS argument in other arts too. Some dude sings off-key, and when confronted about it he says that he's applying "artistic license." No, it's just singing off-key. Or you're playing music in G major and some dude on a guitar strums along in B minor, and when you correct him he says, "yeah, those chords give it an interesting sound." Like screwing up is a style.

It's only a style if it's intended to be. To do that, the artist must have a command of what he is parodying or else he is simple doing it wrong.

Some people just cannot accept that they lack technical skill, or that you need technical skill before you can produce art.

While that is very true, I think most of the scribblers and doodlers have no real idea how unskilled they are. Yes, they willingly acknowledge they are not professionals, but I would argue that they still have an inflated perception or misperception of their work. I attribute this, partly to the casual praise they recieve and partially to the lack of critical posts they recieve.

Some people have been asking what is wrong with having "cack" art. I can answer that with a question of my own. Wouldn't you like to have a forum filled with skilled artists such as Ozzy, BAC, Kalamos and others like them? I would hazard to state that I would get a 100% response to that question. Yeah, some "cack" artists have a following, but I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone's favorite artist is a "cack" artist. We all have a myriad of tastes, but we all want good work. This comes from mastering the craft. If these unskilled artists improved and grew in skill, we would have more fine artists like the ones I mentioned, among many others. It is in our best interests to cultivate and nurture these unskilled artists, for as you pointed out, we want to see erotic art and that is, if not the single reason this art forum exists, it is certainly a primary one.
webmaster joe