Cack =/= Art

[laughinggaszone]

I'd rather call it a sensible critique to your one-way plan.
You are not offering us other viable options.
It's either do it your way, or do it your way.
You decided this forum needs your guidance.
You informed mods of your plans.
You never asked anybody's opinions.

Kal, will all do respect, you don't approve of my plan and I don't need
your approval. You do things your way and I will do them mine.

I think your plan is ultimately disurptive, especially the way you mean to carry it out.

Fair enough

Does my opinion count?
I don't know.
I haven't thrown my weight in with mods yet, so I don't really know how much it counts.
We can find out.

As much as mine, I'm sure. However, I didn't "throw my weight around."
I offered them a suggestion and they agreed to give try. If it works, then
we can see where we'll go from there.

And, for the Nth time I reply: you should give constructive attention to ppl who have some use for it.
And especially, to ppl who ASKED for it.

Again, your opinion. I don't share that for the reason stipulated over these 11 pages of discussion.

I never said you should kill weak artists off.
Maybe their fans.

Neither is going to happen.

...

My point stands.
At least I'm true about my intentions: I want visibility, and I am not ashamed to ask for it.
If I am any good, I deserve it.
If I am struggling, I need help, just any other weak artist.

However you put it, I get the short end of the stick, and I don't see why I should be happy about it.

And I am not true about my intentions? Kal, I don't know how to convince you that paying special attention to the "slow kids" isn't going to diminish
the attention you recieve. This isn't a high school classroom with 50 kids and 1 teacher.

It *has* happened and quickly died off.
We refrained ourselves from naming ppl, so fanboys couldn't chime in and voice their opinions.

Perhaps you mistake lively discussion for kindling. This thread has been
remarkably civil.

First, nobody asked our opinion.
Second, if they really gave you the green light, something I intend to investigate on, stop this nonsense and let's see what you can do.

Kal, this is a discussion. There is no cause for us to stop discussing it. I have already started putting together tutorials and contacting artists whose help I think would be beneficial. You do not support the idea, so I have not asked you. If you change your opinion, I would welcome any
contribution.
webmaster joe

 

[Myriads]

TMF policy on this issue:

All art is welcome on the forum regardless of quality.

We want any member who feels that they wish to share something they create with us welcome to do so.

Any attepts to dissuade people from sharing work will be looked upon as violations of posting rules and be dealt with as such.

Criticism should always be conducted by the rules we defined in the sticky post at this forums top.

Educational threads will be posted in the How To forum and will be left unlocked so all artists can comment and add to them. In this way a procactive set of information can be built up for any artists who wish to look for advice.

But mark me, this art forum will not become exclusionary. All are welcome to post and share here regardless of level of skill.

Myriads

 

[laughinggaszone]

But your local adult web site is not obligated to fix this particular social ill.

No one is obligated to do anything. Feel free to do nothing. I happen to feel
that I should do something. I believe I have as much right to do something as you have to do nothing.

Let me clarify my position: people should feel free to post their stuff, and if they're not good then they're not good. If they don't improve then they don't improve. The art cops won't arrest you. You don't have to get better.

Nope, you sure don't, but you will be hard pressed to convince me that there is a singlr artist in this community who does not wish to improve his art.

This is all cool, just as long as people who want to view decent art can find what they want, without clicking on threads they don't want to see. People who are looking for m/f can find it without accidentally clicking on m/m. People who are looking for videos can find them without accidentally clicking on requests. Requests are okay, as long as people don't click on them by accident and get frustrated. That's why we have a separate requests forum. The TMF is thoughtfully organized to make our lives easy.

It's all about arranging the forums so people get to what they want to see, without accidentally stepping in something that they really didn't want to see. Disturbingly bad drawings fall into this category, because they creep some people out. The solution is not to give people online lessons until the average quality of drawings improve several years later. The solution is to simply arrange the forums so that caca is not intermingled with pictures people want to see.

The only problem is, who gets to decide what is caca? I think this would definately lead to the flame war Kal has been suggesting. Segregating or banning is not a viable option. Offering tactful criticism and tutorial references for ANYONE to use is the best way to go. People will always post
opinions. If they are more thoughtful and constructive then that is better than the casual praise and one line insults. As for the tutorials, they will simply be there. It will be a resource that can be used. as it stands, there is very little on this site for artists to tap into.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

TMF policy on this issue:

All art is welcome on the forum regardless of quality.

We want any member who feels that they wish to share something they create with us welcome to do so.

Any attepts to dissuade people from sharing work will be looked upon as violations of posting rules and be dealt with as such.

Criticism should always be conducted by the rules we defined in the sticky post at this forums top.

As it should be.

Educational threads will be posted in the How To forum and will be left unlocked so all artists can comment and add to them. In this way a procactive set of information can be built up for any artists who wish to look for advice.

This is what I spoke to the mods about. The "How to forum" was a great idea that was just never realized. I want to try and build on the idea.

 

[Redscript]

Is this the longest thread ever?
Just curious...

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

No, this is not the longest thread ever. As long as you're counting the entire website. As for longest thread ever in the artwork forum, its possible, but there have been other long threads, so I don't know about that.

One must remember that we don't have threads like this often, so when the opportunity presents itself we make the most of it. We honestly did make the most of it this time though, unlike the other times. Something productive came out of this and we can walk away refreshed and inspired rather than tired and empty-handed.

Of course, when it comes down to the individual, thats debatable. For me, at least, knowing (as a fact now, not merely a thought) that many of you support critiquing and wouldn't fault an honest critiquer, hopefully that will give others a renewed sense of participation and they won't be bashful about being critical. If we're going to have honest balance in praise and criticism, we need people who are going to step up to the plate.

 

[Ayla ny]

I hope that I am not keeping this thread from dying its long overdue death but I just saw it and wanted to post.

I am going to post my opinion as a fetish website / art lover (every art needs its audience). 🙂

Thank you, every single one of you who post your scribbling, doodles, and museum quality art (and they seem to run the gamut here)! I don’t post to all of the drawings I like, but if I do, it’s because I really really like it! It has that balance of “Oh, I like what’s happening there!” and “Wow, that’s beautiful!" There is a balance that will forgive on either side.

Crude talent is talent in the making and is pretty easy to spot (and appreciate). I would hate to discourage anyone from posting their work… but do agree that telling horrible singers that they can sing, could land them on American Idol shaming themselves. They should still sing! But, they should know that they sing because they love to… not because we need to hear them.

 

[Kalamos]

Kal, will all do respect, you don't approve of my plan and I don't need
your approval.

Now, wait, things are subtler than that.

First, I don't like *how* you plan [planned?] to carry it out.
Second, while you don't need *my* approval, you can't start out something that might change ppl's habits, without meeting some resistance.
Third, as you said yourself, you could use support.
Your plan won't work if you won't listen to ppl's concerns and adapt a bit.

The way I see it, you're shoving your idea down ppl's throats.
If you can't relate to me peacefully, how do you expect to relate to other ppl?

Fair enough

Nope. That's not fair.
It is something you should consider, before acting out your idea.

I offered them a suggestion and they agreed to give try. If it works, then we can see where we'll go from there.

The way you worded it to mods is different from what you've laid out for us, here.

You only briefly mentioned expanding the How-To forum, and when I said it was a bad idea to give critiques in art threads themselves, you never made it clear you really planned on using the How-To only as I suggested.

I had to ask.
You could have simply said so.
That would have been different, and I could have supported your idea from the beginning.

Again, your opinion. I don't share that for the reason stipulated over these 11 pages of discussion.

You shouldn't dismiss my, or anybody's, opinion so easily.
This is not a private web page.
This is an open forum.
It is built upon the collective efforts of a large number of individuals.
While nobody is a nexus, you can't disregard users without making the whole forum poorer.

Neither is going to happen.

Well, we could clobber them just a little bit.

And I am not true about my intentions?

You teased me about being jealous.
So I made it clear that I had no hidden motives.
Mostly, I dislike my cosy habits being challenged.
And you did nothing to put my concerns at rest.
You simply said I was wrong.
That is not the kind of attitude likely to win somebody over in an argument.

Perhaps you mistake lively discussion for kindling. This thread has been remarkably civil.

So far.
But as you had to admit with Ngauntjsmith, there are the germs for fan war.
You should be extra thoughtful and thorough in explaining your plans.

Ppl won't be bothered to read through this whole thing.
They just read bits and assume things.
Not necessarily the right things.

Either you keep your plans to yourself and the mods alone, and let them act your ideas out.
Or, if you discuss them in the open, you shouldn't rush things or you'll be met with stubborn resistance over simple misunderstandings.

I have already started putting together tutorials and contacting artists whose help I think would be beneficial.
You do not support the idea, so I have not asked you. If you change your opinion, I would welcome any
contribution.

I'm not one to say "never ever", without talking things over *extensively*.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Now, wait, things are subtler than that.

First, I don't like *how* you plan [planned?] to carry it out.
Second, while you don't need *my* approval, you can't start out something that might change ppl's habits, without meeting some resistance.
Third, as you said yourself, you could use support.
Your plan won't work if you won't listen to ppl's concerns and adapt a bit.

The way I see it, you're shoving your idea down ppl's throats.
If you can't relate to me peacefully, how do you expect to relate to other ppl?

Kal, I have done nothing but relate to you peacefully. I agree, adaption is
part of the process and I have adapted to some suggestions, just not yours.
Nothing personal, I just don't consider them points I need to adapt to.

Nope. That's not fair.
It is something you should consider, before acting out your idea.

I've considered it as far as I think is necessary. If you want to consider it further, be my guest.

The way you worded it to mods is different from what you've laid out for us, here.

You only briefly mentioned expanding the How-To forum, and when I said it was a bad idea to give critiques in art threads themselves, you never made it clear you really planned on using the How-To only as I suggested.

I had to ask.
You could have simply said so.
That would have been different, and I could have supported your idea from the beginning.

I did say that. You were busy telling me how bad the idea was. I have encouraged folks to give more thoughtful critiques to art posts. They must
simply follow the rules laid out for this forum, which my suggestions run parrallel with.

You shouldn't dismiss my, or anybody's, opinion so easily.
This is not a private web page.
This is an open forum.
It is built upon the collective efforts of a large number of individuals.
While nobody is a nexus, you can't disregard users without making the whole forum poorer.

I agree. In the same respect, I can't take every user's suggestions or wishes to heart. You just happen to be one of those users.

You teased me about being jealous.
So I made it clear that I had no hidden motives.
Mostly, I dislike my cosy habits being challenged.
And you did nothing to put my concerns at rest.
You simply said I was wrong.
That is not the kind of attitude likely to win somebody over in an argument.

Really Kal, I'm not interested in soothing insecurities or winning people over.
Being self absorbed isn't going to win any points with folks. A person should keep their own nose clean before trying to wipe mine for me. Folks have already started creating tutorials and leaving constructive criticisms because they were won over by the spirit of the idea, not by me placating to their ego's. Artists (pros) have started contacting me about creating tickling specific tutorials, which I think is a wonderful idea. They chose to join this effort because they think it's a worthwhile one and not because I kissed their ass.

So far.
But as you had to admit with Ngauntjsmith, there are the germs for fan war.
You should be extra thoughtful and thorough in explaining your plans.

Actually, no I don't have to admit that. I'm not going to make that assumption. You may know more about him than I do, but I judge a person on what I see him do, not what other people tell me.

Ppl won't be bothered to read through this whole thing.
They just read bits and assume things.
Not necessarily the right things.

Some will and some won't and just because someone doesn't agree with something doesn't make it wrong.

Either you keep your plans to yourself and the mods alone, and let them act your ideas out.
Or, if you discuss them in the open, you shouldn't rush things or you'll be met with stubborn resistance over simple misunderstandings.

The only "stubborn resistance" I've met so far is you, Kal. I may meet more, but only the mods can stop this and there really isn't a reason to since I'm only putting a resource, that they created, to it's fullest potential. Any encouragement to post more thoughtful opinions will allways be tempered by the rules of this forum as Myriads pointed out.

I'm not one to say "never ever", without talking things over *extensively*.

Well Kal, I don't see any point in talking it over anymore than we have.
And I have things to do. 🙂
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Kal, I have done nothing but relate to you peacefully. I agree, adaption is part of the process and I have adapted to some suggestions, just not yours.
Nothing personal, I just don't consider them points I need to adapt to.

Your idea of "peacefully" leaves a bit to be desired.
At any rate, whether you adapted to my suggestions or to somebody's else, is of no consequence.
You've changed your plans.
We'll see how they work out.

I did say that.
You were busy telling me how bad the idea was. I have encouraged folks to give more thoughtful critiques to art posts.

I was busy describing the weak points I found.
You told me to trust you on the basis of.. what?
The fact you knew better than me?

Really Kal, I'm not interested in soothing insecurities or winning people over.

You might try.
Comes cheaper and smoother.

Folks have already started creating tutorials and leaving constructive criticisms because they were won over by the spirit of the idea, not by me placating to their ego's. Artists (pros) have started contacting me about creating tickling specific tutorials, which I think is a wonderful idea. They chose to join this effort because they think it's a worthwhile one and not because I kissed their ass.

Mmm. It's already settled then.
And you haven't asked a single user opinion around, before starting the whole thing.

At least, this is quite different from your original "let's tear somebody's art to ribbons" plan.

The only "stubborn resistance" I've met so far is you, Kal.
I may meet more.

Considering how you related to me, would be no wonder.
Maybe it's my weak ego speaking here, but you did a poor job at describing your plans.
No idea is good enough, when you try shoving it down ppl's throat, claiming "trust me, it's good for you".

It is not kissing ppl's butts.
It is being polite to strangers.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Your idea of "peacefully" leaves a bit to be desired.
At any rate, whether you adapted to my suggestions or to somebody's else, is of no consequence.
You've changed your plans.
We'll see how they work out.

I haven't changed a thing, Kal. I'm sorry that you seem to think otherwise, but I'm not going to walk you through 15 pages of discussion. If you didn't get it, you didn't get it. Maybe I'll draw you a tutorial. 😉

I was busy describing the weak points I found.
You told me to trust you on the basis of.. what?
The fact you knew better than me?

I never asked for you to "trust" anything. We were having a discussion.
I spelled out my points, you spelled out yours. We disagreed. I don't believe
that is a request for you to trust me.

You might try.
Comes cheaper and smoother.

No thanks, I have little time for that. Particularly the former.

Mmm. It's already settled then.
And you haven't asked a single user opinion around, before starting the whole thing.

At least, this is quite different from your original "let's tear somebody's art to ribbons" plan.

Really Kal, where did I ever say that? And your wrong, I did ask quite a few opinions. You're just getting a case of sour grapes because I didn't adapt to yours.

Considering how you related to me, would be no wonder.
Maybe it's my weak ego speaking here, but you did a poor job at describing your plans.
No idea is good enough, when you try shoving it down ppl's throat, claiming "trust me, it's good for you".

It is not kissing ppl's butts.
It is being polite to strangers.

Odd that others had no problems grasping my plans. And it's hardly shoving, when people have the option of using it or not...doing it or not. Again, a case of sour grapes ole man. Not very dignified.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

I haven't changed a thing, Kal. I'm sorry that you seem to think otherwise, but I'm not going to walk you through 15 pages of discussion.
If you didn't get it, you didn't get it.

...

Odd that others had no problems grasping my plans. And it's hardly shoving, when people have the option of using it or not...doing it or not. Again, a case of sour grapes ole man. Not very dignified.

You know? This little chat of ours was really eye-opening.

You took credit for my idea, using the How-To forum, and you're now trying to convince me I was wrong all along.
I might ask you what I should be jealous about, since you never planned on bumping cack art itself with criticism.
But I digress...

At any rate, you are quite right.
Tutorials might come in handy, and whatever you say, I won't deny myself the chance of learning something new from pro artists.

Maybe you might avoid that familiar tone of yours.
A stranger minding my grapes is quite unsettling, considering we never shared tea and biscuits.
But I guess it is part of your charm: rough and... well... rough.

We're waiting for the tutorials now.
Make it quick, you've made promises and all these people can't wait forever.

 

[isabeau]

i'm not going to sift through fifteen pages of reading, i read the first three..could you post an example of what cack is? because i don't understand at all..also, is anyone perfect? from what i am understanding, cack is a drawing that would be on a child's level? is that right? let's put this in another perspective...not all the stories written on this forum are commercial quality, but i haven't seen any complaints about one story appearing badly written or thought out..what i do, is start to read a story, and almost immediately i can tell if it's something i will enjoy or not..and if i won't enjoy it, i simply close the thread...am i on the right direction here or not?

 

[laughinggaszone]

You know? This little chat of ours was really eye-opening.

You took credit for my idea, using the How-To forum, and you're now trying to convince me I was wrong all along.
I might ask you what I should be jealous about, since you never planned on bumping cack art itself with criticism.
But I digress...

Interesting interpretation. I feel obliged to warn you that you are making yourself look like a whiney, self absorbed ass.

At any rate, you are quite right.
Tutorials might come in handy, and whatever you say, I won't deny myself the chance of learning something new from pro artists.

always a sound approach

Maybe you might avoid that familiar tone of yours.
A stranger minding my grapes is quite unsettling, considering we never shared tea and biscuits.
But I guess it is part of your charm: rough and... well... rough.

The grapes are yours, Kal.

We're waiting for the tutorials now.
Make it quick, you've made promises and all these people can't wait forever.

Sorry, but I'm not on your schedule. They'll be done when they're done.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Interesting interpretation. I feel obliged to warn you that you are making yourself look like a whiney, self absorbed ass.

Woah, you're hurting my feelings now. 😉

The grapes are yours, Kal.

That was my point.
Mind your own business, and leave my grapes alone, Joe.

Sorry, but I'm not on your schedule.
They'll be done when they're done.

And for a second I hoped you'd be for real.
So far, big talk, no gold.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Woah, you're hurting my feelings now. 😉

Not my intention, but I suspect that is the case.

That was my point.
Mind your own business, and leave my grapes alone, Joe.

You made it my business when you directed it at me. If you don't want me to
comment, don't iniate dialogue.

And for a second I hoped you'd be for real.
So far, big talk, no gold.

Kal, I suspect that you'd enjoy nothing less than to see this project turn out to be a total failure. This is a possibility. Fortunately, I have nothing to prove to you. I will not be baited into something as ridiculous and transparent as what you are attempting. I have started this project and any further discussions with you are not worth my time. Feel free to continue commenting, but I have nothing more to contribute at this time.
webmaster joe

 

[isabeau]

Actually, it is. In fact, so is yours. Although the term, cack, is derogatory, I don't mean it as such. I simply mean that you meet the qualifications. Both of you have improved quite a bit over time, but your art is still very untrained When I say untrained, I mean you still have not mastered many basic techniques in drawing. Your "style" is not something you created as much as it is a reflection on your lack of training. In order to develop a true style, you must have a command of the fundamentals, otherwise, you are not truely creating anything as much as you are at the mercy of your limitations. As Sun TZu, the chinese warlord and philosopher wrote, to feign cowardice, one must master courage.
webmaster joe

ps...to be fair...I've been critiquing without having posted an example of my own work. Below is the very first picture I drew (as an adult) and the other is a quick geometric cartoon I drew and computer colored. There are several years between the two. Huuuuge difference. And I actually thought that 7of9 pic was good when I first drew it. What was I smoking!

very nice..and i'm not smoking anything..i'm not exactly a reliable critic of artwork, since my forte is music and writing, but i do recognize good artwork when i see it.. if i chose to draw, it would definitely be cack..gesh that word reminds me of dope..

 

[Kalamos]

Not my intention, but I suspect that is the case.

😉

You made it my business when you directed it at me. If you don't want me to comment, don't iniate dialogue.

Woah, you mean business, eh? 😉
Don't mess with you or else...

I stated my concerns about your *original* plan.
Whether I misunderstood your real intentions, or you managed to fuel my fears, your current idea is different from what I criticised in my previous posts.

What I suggested was, keeping art critique outside actual art threads, so as to avoid flames and clutter.

As long as you keep it to the How-To forum, I am not going to complain.
And from what I've seen, nobody else should have reasons to.

Kal, I suspect that you'd enjoy nothing less than to see this project turn out to be a total failure.

Mmm. So the aliens kidnapped you...?

Fortunately, I have nothing to prove to you. I will not be baited into something as ridiculous and transparent as what you are attempting.

Ach! You are smarter than I expected.
Foiled again!

I have started this project and any further discussions with you are not worth my time. Feel free to continue commenting, but I have nothing more to contribute at this time.

Out of ammo yet?

At any rate, these tutorials could be a good idea.
I hope they work out well.
I also hope they'll benefit myself as well as others.
I also hope you lay caffeine off a bit, but that's just wishful thinking.

Now, if you don't mind, I got my grapes to look after.
Season is late and wouldn't want them to turn sour...

😉

 

[Dave2112]

You know, I really should have commented on this far earlier, but have just come across it tonight. Life's been busy.

While this is a discussion that's extremely subjective, I'm going to come out and say to begin treading carefully. Some of the things being said and the overall direction of this thread is coming dangerously close to flaming.

First off, the "list" of artists and thier "levels of talent" was in extemely poor taste. I cannot begin to describe how utterly embarrassed I was for this forum and the art community as a whole that it's come to this.

Of late, I've had lightherated talks with other members of the staff about the "good old days" of the forum, and how I sometimes miss them. While change is good and growing is a neccesity, there are some things I do miss about those days. The "oneness" of the art community is one of them. I remember a time when we all stood as one, regardless of talent levels. We supported each other and gave each other tips, advice and encouragement. We were all on the same side, having discovered our fetish and a way to express it. I'm shamed by this line of discussion, to be quite honest. Very much so.

Where does anyone get off dissing anyone's talent level, since it's all subjective anyway? If you don't like someone's "cack" (which I personally find to be a very offensive term) then don't click on thier threads.

Second, these "tutorials" in How To should not be seen by newer or (as you put it) "less talented" artists as being sponsored by the TMF. Nor should they be seen as an endorsement of "better" artists. The How To sub-forum is for everyone to add thier tips and styles. It is not exclusive. The entire sub-forum is about tutorials and stickying only some of them seems rather exclusionary. That's why there will be no stickies for certain tutorials.

I feel for those who may be feeling singled out as "cack" artists. You know, for a long time, I've heard all kinds of things about my own art. First it was "CGI isn't real art". Then it was "Well, only this or that program is really used by pros". Then it was that I didn't do "traditional" styles of Poser art and my stuff was too "comic-y". And you know what? I could give a shit about any of it. Three Golden Feather Awards later, I still don't care. Because it's all subjective.

To all of you who may be feeling bad about this thread, don't. Keep doing what you do. Keep expressing yourself and don't worry about what others say. Yes, there are points to be made about accepting criticism. I wasn't that good when I started and only got better because I listened to what others had to say and loked at my stuff honestly. And like I said in the sticky thread that someone else already linked to, I did mention that people have to be willing to accept such things. This isn't about everyone holding hands, singing Kumbaya and pretending to like things they don't. But it is about class and taste. Art is what you make of it. And it's what you see in it. AND...it's about what you put into it. There are folks here doing the best they can and openly sharing it with others and it makes them feel good. So what? Lay off.

After 15 pages, I'm growing weary of this thread. It has broken no rules and won't get pulled just because it's pointless...but I can see it getting hairy. So, like I said, tread carefully.

I really do miss the old days when we were all a community that stuck together and supported each other. Thanks for making that a thing of the past. It's truly appreciated.

 

[laughinggaszone]

You know, I really should have commented on this far earlier, but have just come across it tonight. Life's been busy.

While this is a discussion that's extremely subjective, I'm going to come out and say to begin treading carefully. Some of the things being said and the overall direction of this thread is coming dangerously close to flaming.

In fairness Dave, you're a little late to the game. If you noticed, this thread hasn't been touched in days and probably would have died. You just breathed new life into it.

First off, the "list" of artists and thier "levels of talent" was in extemely poor taste. I cannot begin to describe how utterly embarrassed I was for this forum and the art community as a whole that it's come to this.

If you are referring to the list I used to measure artistic technical skill, I must disagree. Art is art and skill is skill. It was an objective observation of the training (formal or informal) the artists in the example had. I'm a professional artist and art editor, so I am more than qualified to judge a work of art on it's technical merits and skill. It's artistic value is a matter of individual opinion and cannot truely be measured.

Of late, I've had lightherated talks with other members of the staff about the "good old days" of the forum, and how I sometimes miss them. While change is good and growing is a neccesity, there are some things I do miss about those days. The "oneness" of the art community is one of them. I remember a time when we all stood as one, regardless of talent levels. We supported each other and gave each other tips, advice and encouragement. We were all on the same side, having discovered our fetish and a way to express it. I'm shamed by this line of discussion, to be quite honest. Very much so.

Dave you sound like your getting out of touch with the times. Your good old days were not that good. I was here. You had groups of people in fighting and mods shutting down flames on a regular basis. You should be thrilled that a thread went the distance without devolving into a flame war. As for encouraging support, I agree. However, there are many ways to do this. I DO NOT support the casual praise and even more casual put downs given to artists. Constructive support is intregal to any artist's growth. You're an artist and you know damn well that praise is nothing but ego stroking.

Where does anyone get off dissing anyone's talent level, since it's all subjective anyway? If you don't like someone's "cack" (which I personally find to be a very offensive term) then don't click on thier threads.

Ok, let's leave the world of political correctness behind. Yeah, cack is derogatory and in my opinion, the poster could have been more tactful. However, he is entitled to his opinion. Unless you ban opinions, he can have his say. This is why I have suggested that their be more constructive opinions to art posts. If you hate somthing, tell them why. Don't just say "it sucks" or "total crap". In the same light, don't just say "great job" or "super duper". Make the opinion or critique meaningful

Second, these "tutorials" in How To should not be seen by newer or (as you put it) "less talented" artists as being sponsored by the TMF. Nor should they be seen as an endorsement of "better" artists. They will not stay stickied for long. The How To sub-forum is for everyone to add thier tips and styles. It is not exclusive. The entire sub-forum is about tutorials and stickying only some of them seems rather exclusionary.

Actually Dave, take another look. That forum has scant few tutorials. Certainly visual ones, which are what most artists need. Stickying visual tutorials gives artists the much neede resources until that forum can be developed into what it was meant to be; a resource for all artists.

I feel for those who may be feeling singled out as "cack" artists. You know, for a long time, I've heard all kinds of things about my own art. First it was "CGI isn't real art". Then it was "Well, only this or that program is really used by pros". Then it was that I didn't do "traditional" styles of Poser art and my stuff was too "comic-y". And you know what? I could give a shit about any of it. Three Golden Feather Awards later, I still don't care. Because it's all subjective.

True, but again, there is a difference between skill and art. I don't like poser art, but it takes great skill to master it. Just as friends of mine question the art of comic drawing by computer. No pencil work. Again, it takes skill to master computer illustration. We can go on an on...the pencil vs the mechanical pencil...nib pens vs ink pens. My arguement is over its skill...not whether it's art.

To all of you who may be feeling bad about this thread, don't. Keep doing what you do. Keep expressing yourself and don't worry about what others say. Yes, there are points to be made about accepting criticism. I wasn't that good when I started and only got better because I listened to what others had to say and loked at my stuff honestly. And like I said in the sticky thread that someone else already linked to, I did mention that people have to be willing to accept such things. This isn't about everyone holding hands, singing Kumbaya and pretending to like things they don't. But it is about class and taste. Art is what you make of it. And it's what you see in it. AND...it's about what you put into it. There are folks here doing the best they can and openly sharing it with others and it makes them feel good. So what? Lay off.

If they feel bad, that is their choice. Most of this thread was directed towards constructive criticism and trying to move away from the casual praise and put downs. As for laying off, really, you would expect to post your art with the disclaimer, "only post positive opinions of my work?" You have no more right to ask that than people have to ask unskilled artists to stop posting.

After 15 pages, I'm growing weary of this thread. It has broken no rules and won't get pulled just because it's pointless...but I can see it getting hairy. So, like I said, tread carefully.

Again, you breathed new life into this. I think you should have made these comments earlier on (which Myriads did) or simply refrained and let it die. But like the person who started this thread, you had a burning desire to say something on a matter you disagreed about. Keep it in mind when you ask that of others. Many, but not all, do it for much the same reason.

y do miss the old days when we were all a community that stuck together and supported each other. Thanks for making that a thing of the past. It's truly appreciated.

Gee, I wish I could remember those days. I just can't seem to find those memories. Ah well, it's subjective.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

As for laying off, really, you would expect to post your art with the disclaimer, "only post positive opinions of my work?" You have no more right to ask that than people have to ask unskilled artists to stop posting.

You should consider the Golden Rule, though.
By his spirit and letter, you cannot ask people to stop drawing, or, what would probably bring the same effect, get better.

I still think you are being too upfront with this tutorial thing.

 

[Dave2112]

I'm going to say this quickly, as I'm on my way out. Yes, I should have posted to this earlier, but like I clearly stated, I only even saw it yesterday. Usually, I let things go, but in this case I chose not to. I really do not need permission to post to a thread.

I do NOT want people to be restricted to only saying positive things about other people's work. I ony wish to see taste and tact used. "Cack" =/= Taste.

The only point I was trying to make was why certain tutorials will not be stickied. The whole How To sub-forum is basically one big Sticky that anyone can add to. Picking and choosing who gets to have thier tutorials stickied is exclusionary. Other than that, we don't disagree on as much as you'd like to infer that we do.

I don't want to see artists stop posting because they think thier works may not be "good enough" after discussions like this. That's all. And I'll stand by that no matter how many dead threads I have to keep alive.

 

[isabeau]

i'm with Dave on this one..what if there was a term given to certains stories that don't meet up with some's particular view of what is or isn't good literature? and then went and listed the names of those whose stories didn't come up to par, and then went on to rank those that they thought did..it's hurting people's feelings on what i thought was an amateur site...meaning one done for the love of it..if i thought the people who read my stories that i've attempted to write and post on this forum would be as judgemental as some of you have shown here on the art forum, i would never have been brave enough to post a thing...and my earlier work was certainly horribly done, as far as the "correct" format was concerned...

p.s. Dave you have always been one of my favorite artists on this forum..you and 3DTickler's, who i noticed was also not ranked...

 

[laughinggaszone]

i thought was an amateur site...meaning one done for the love of it...

You thought wrong. No site is free of opinion or criticism. If it were, people would abandon it very quickly. What this basically comes down to is that some of you want to be able to post your art and stories without criticism. That is NEVER going to happen. Sorry, the world just doesn't work that way and that includes the net.

What we have are basically two types of opinions expressed on this forum, when it comes to art: casual positive and casual negative. Neither do anything more than stroke or crush egos. I have repeatedly encouraged folks to avoid both of these by posting meaningful opinions that are both honest and encouring. Some of you seem to believe that honesty equals discourage. For the last time, it does not. I did not start this thread (although some seem to think that I did) I have merely offered positive and useful alternatives to the casual opinions that have nurtured a believe that only mindless and casual opinions are good.But it isn't, it's like candy,it tastes good, but it's not good for you. You certainly can't live on it and neirther can artists live on
casual praise.

I really am getting tired of continuously explaining this to folks who come by, skim the thread and post some response that is based completely on erroneous and uninformed conclusions. So...for the last time...post more meaningful opinions than "you suck" or "good job". Artists, don't be afraid to give technical advice. Laypeople, don't be afraid to say what you like/dislike and why. Be honest, but courteous. Nurture and encourage our artists so that they will grow and mature and we will be able to enjoy the fruits of that growth. But also help to strengthen them so that they can accept criticism without falling to pieces. Tutorials will be posted in the "How do they do that" forum. I would like them to be stickied until such time as the forum has a good supply of tutorials. However, this is up to the mods. As it stands, the forum has only a few visual tutorials. I have already started putting together some basic tutorials for the beginer artists and have engaged several forum and MTJ artists who have commited to do more advanced tutorials with a tickling theme. This is not an elitists thing. Anyone can do a tutorial, but remember, you are doing it to help fellow artists, not stroke your ego. Only do it if you feel you have something to contribute, and not simply to jump on the bandwagon with some half ass stab that helps no one. This is my final post on this matter. I'm not going to keep coming in here to explain myself or my actions. There are over 15 pages worth of that. Try reading them before posting a "casual" response.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Sorry, the world just doesn't work that way and that includes the net.

I cannot agree on this one.
A single forum is not the whole net.
And a forum is what we make it to be.

The nurturing part sounds like a good thing, though.
But you should have been clearer from the beginning, instead of throwing jabs at users' ego.
People wouldn't post "casual comments", thinking you're the bad guy to put the blame on.