Gay at birth?

[TKpervert]

Getting back to the real world for a moment here.... nature has nothing to gain by creating 'gays' at birth, whether they be humans, mice, coyotes, TMF posters, whatever.

The whole idea as intended by nature is to procreate. Gays don't procreate.

Nature makes mistakes, but not in large enough numbers to account for the quantity of gays I see around me. (can't speak for the mice or coyotes, just the humans).

Homosexuality is a choice, acquired after birth.

 

[ShiningIce]

The whole idea as intended by nature is to procreate. Gays don't procreate.

Ah, but thats where you're wrong. A homosexual is perfectly capable of reproducing. Just because someone has a sexual PREFERANCE doesnt mean he isnt physically capable of having sex with one of the opposite sex.

 

[TKpervert]

I'll agree that a homosexual has the necessary hardware to copulate and keep the species going, but the PREFERENCE of male for male, or female for female, flies directly into the face of nature's original intent.

 

[Oblesklk]

How can you be gay at birth? Doesn't this defy science and logic? When one is born, doesn't the child have to learn these traits?

Don't know that it defies any logic. I was born with a tickling fetish, yet I stand before you now. I don't think I defy any logical rules by existing. My love of tickling has existed since conscious thought, it was never "learned." It just is, and always has been.

I had a very good friend of mine in college that I talked with about this stuff. He always liked men, he just didn't realize it until later in life. I've always loved tickling, I just didn't realize it until later in life.

Growing up, I was just a tickler. It wasn't until later than I knew what it meant. So my revelation about myself was not an "abomination against God" or some such, it was just the result of a bit of research and soul searching. So it was with him, too.

Naturally I can't speak for all ticklers or all gay people. Just my own experience, and the experiences of my friend, inasmuch as he shared them with me.

Then again, what is it that you find in a gay relationship that you can't find in a natural one? that is the one question I have yet to find a honest answer to

Situation reversed.

What do you find in a hetero relationship that you can't get from a homo relationship?

Last time I looked, we're all human. We're all capable of eternal greed, love, anger, pain, despair, empathy, and thoughfulness. So if you're insinuating that another man is not capable of a loving and productive relationship, then why in in the world would any woman be hetero?

 

[Ticklebell]

Ok. I don't have a lot to say. But here I go. Saying whatever. I'm not straight. I have not labeled myself, but I know what I'm not. I've only within the last couple months been coming out to my family and friends, who have all, by the way, been incredibly supportive and understanding, for which I am sooooo grateful. Man, I love my family. I believe this is what I naturally am, and always have been. I had a huge crush on Paula Abdul when I was six, and didn't even know what it meant, etc. I do not believe that people learn solely from experience, or that they are born with natural instincts as to everything. I don't care if you follow Plato or Aristotle, or whoever in their philosophies about human nature and behaviour. I don't think there's a clear-cut answer to just about anything. I think most things are a mix. It's dangerous to define. How do you explain dogs who were separated from their mamas as puppies, and then a few months later they're humping everything. No one taught them that. It's natural. Not that I'm comparing humans to dogs necessarily, but we ARE all just animals, no? 😉 So a kid gets to be twelve, and discovers something in his pants. He didn't learn to do anything about that, but usually he does. Society tells him who THEY think it's OK to be attracted to, and if that happens to be what he is actually attracted to, that's great. If not, it's going to be a tough row to hoe for him, but he deserves love and happiness nonetheless. In my opinion and experience, homosexuality is NOT a choice. The CHOICE is whether or not be honest with yourself and act on it. Tons of married people are in the "closet". Now, I know I'm a girl, but I figured using a boy as an example would be simpler.
As for the what can't you get out of a [heterosexual] relationship that you can out of a homosexual one question... attraction. Comfort. Honesty with that person and with yourself. Honesty in general. Dude, you love who you love. I can't live a lie. And lying is a sin isn't it. So gay people, in AND out of the closet, seem to be screwed no matter what aren't they.
Meanwhile, I don't think of nature as an entity possessing "intent" in the first place. People evolve. And if there IS an intent, perhaps the fact that this planet is rather overpopulated has something to do with Buddy Nature's decisions of late. Many homosexual couples want children. Many would love to adopt, which I think is wonderful, as that way they are not adding to overpopulation, but giving a child who already needs them a home and a family and love. Not everyone SHOULD procreate, frankly. And that includes a lot of straight folk. AND that doesn't mean that gay people shouldn't procreate either. There are just a helluva lot of people on Earth. I don't think we are in need of bigger numbers for survival. We're not dying out just yet. 🙄

Mwah!
-Bell

PS: Hey, I'm a leftie with long ring fingers! Who knew? Hehehe...

 

[natural tickler]

point taken, Oblesklk, however, what I have found out that being hetero gives ya more options sexually than homo. the feelings in a hetero are more natural, real, emotional. Can you get those feelings homo without moving from man to man? I doubt you could

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Can you get those feelings homo without moving from man to man? I doubt you could

You didn't ask me. But, I'll answer anyway. I've known a number of gay people who slept around all over the place with members of the opposite sex before realizing that they were gay. They were never satisfied or fulfilled and felt a need to keep searching. Once they recognized that they simply weren't drawn to the opposite sex and tried a relationship with the same sex, they quickly found someone with whom they were compatible, settled down and were happy.

Obviously, this would be on an individual case basis. Just like in hetero relationships, there are plenty of people who simply like to sleep around and not make a commitment with any one person. But, this has little, if anything, to do with their gender orientation.

AFA being "natural, real, whatever"... That is also on a case by case basis. Of course homosexual inclinations would feel foreign to you. You're hetero and happy with that. But, it would be just as foreign for those who are gay to try to fit into hetero relationships. It's simply a matter of our drawings.

Ann

 

[Ticklebell]

That's a stereotype. Are you saying that feelings in a hetero RELATIONSHIP are more real, or that feelings in a hetero PERSON are more real. To say that homosexuals do not have real feelings as individuals OR as couples is a bit ridiculous. How can one things be more "real" than another. That's like saying "so unique". You're real or you're not. Gay people are just as likely to love one person in their life as a straight person, though I do not know of very many straight people anymore who are successful with that anyway. I am definitely not hopping around just looking for some ass. I'm looking for a meaningful, loving relationship. Horny people, be they gay or straight hop around. Not everyone's a rabbit. And meanwhile, something I already touched on before, a gay person hiding behind a heterosexual relationship would certainly NOT be realer or more natural. It's a mask. Mwah!
-Bell

 

[Ticklebell]

Yay Ann!

 

[natural tickler]

point taken, Ann and Ticklebell.

 

[natural tickler]

btw Ann, how bout' dem Redskins??? hahahaha

COWBOYS 4 life

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

btw Ann, how bout' dem Redskins??? hahahaha

COWBOYS 4 life

LOL I didn't say they knew how to play worth shit...just that they're my team. 😛

Ann

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Very good point, Telemain. There are many people for whom no "label" is an exact match. I applaud your courage in accepting your own sexuality with integrity. With the leanings of society as a whole, it's often very difficult to do.

Ann

 

[Knox The Hatter]

"...however, what I have found out that being hetero gives ya more options sexually than homo. the feelings in a hetero are more natural, real, emotional. Can you get those feelings homo without moving from man to man? I doubt you could"

Natural will now tell us how he KNOWS about the ways homosexuals can't feel anything natural, real, or emotional, won't he?

And will some so-called expert out there please tell he how Adam and Steve violate the sanctity of THEIR marriage? What kind of bullshit is that? I have a healthy marriage, how do the activities of homosexuals violate the sanctity of MY marriage?
I've read in places that homosexuals MAKE more options for themselves in regards to the enjoyment of sex. Some of it certainly does not sound pretty. But it sounds like they make do. None of it has any effect on me or the queen size I share with the miz.

I'm thinking about a very young, impressionable 20 year old kid I was in the Navy with. Rather than deal with being gay, and forcing himself to become sexually attracted to girls, like some of you think proper, he cut his wrists and jumped off a bridge. Wow. What an idea. I'm sure his parents sat there at the funeral, thinking, well, he made the right choice. Look at the alternative...

 

[Ticklemmmeeeeee]

wow....so many great and (not so great...lol) points made in this thread. I am posting on this not because I really know much of anything atall but because I feel strongly about something that has such a great impact on human beings and essentially my life in an inadvertent yet powerful way. No, I am not gay.

I have and still do ponder whether or not I may have bi-sexual tendencies simply because I find myself attracted sexually to some other females sometimes. I know I am not gay because I adore men and when I think about being in love it is a man that I envision that with, never a female. Though I fantasize about having sexual experiences with women. I don't understand it completely.

So who is to even say that this great "attraction" I feel for females is supposed to be sexual? Perhaps I "make it that way"

Perhaps the strong attraction I feel for females is indeed as powerful as I feel but I am mistaking sexual energy for something intimate and intense I never had with my own mom.

Why does attraction, intensity and intimacy have to be associated with sex?

I wonder sometimes if people find themselves strongly attracted to same sex acquaintances and acknowledge that it can be very, very intimate but not sexual. I have been very intimate with my good friend Katie , who is gay, and have never acted upon the intimacy to take it to a sexual level.

This was a choice because I acknowledged that she was what i needed that night and sleeping together was good because she loves me and what I needed was to be close to someone who loves me not have sex because of it. I don't consider having slept with her and letting her hold me as a homosexual act. I wonder though, sadly , how many men would feel comfortable or give themselves permission to do that with a guy friend and not feel "funny" about it.

My point , I'll get bashed for this but what if all the people who think they are gay are only in need of love and tenderness f rom someone and they happen to find that in the same sex? Why then does that have to turn sexual?

Being close and intimate can be just that , we can make the choice to keep it that way. Too often we confuse decisions we make as our very nature. Someone else may have acted upon the strong feelings and had sex, I know my friend wanted to. Then , what happens next, next morning you decide you're gay because you had this incredibly intimate and beautiful experience and you rationalize because let's face it, men have been treating you like shit as of late so you guess you're gay. I will get so bashed for that...lol 🙂

What is so interesting about writing this right now is what I am learning of myself. I never really take time to thnk about this issue so this is therapeutic, regardless of whether anyone reads or responds to my mad ramblings,lol.

Someone here mentioned the un naturalness (if that is a word...lol) of being gay and I have to agree that it is not natural....our bodies fit together for a reason....if I were having "sex" with a woman I would not be able to experience the act of penetration...so that would not feel natural to me...something important and intimate would be missing in that relationship for me....that said, I do not feel that it makes us bad people to want or not want or to feel one way or another....it is the judgements we should work on and cast aside what we think (because we are imperfect) and rely upon (for the final decision) what God says...just a thought....

I also don't think we should take every little comment that is made here to the extreme and attack it linguistically to indicate that there is hypocracy involved....I mean essentially we are all just trying to figure this stuff out as we go along....(well, aside from the know-it-alls...lol...I don't think we should be quick to judge one another as hypocrites really........I think there is hypocracy in most things in life, in being human and possessing emotions that range from black to white and every shade therein all the time depending upon the information we may be taking in at any given time.

We may regulate these feelings and beliefs to a great degree but to what standard do we rely upon to do that?. Too often we rely upon what we know to be right or wrong and have decided what is right or wrong. Based upon what exactly? We base what is right or wrong upon what we have learned from personal experience and influence by those around us...other imperfect human beings!

I feel that as a christian myself I am in conflict most of the time with what I feel the bible says I should do and not do to show my love for God and be in his kingdom with him one day when my physical body no longers functions for me. This conflict is not a pretty thing.

I do not know of the word homosexual being in the bible. Any mention of marriage that I have seen states or indicates that marriage should be between a man and a woman. I haven't seen any scriptures that specifically state that a man and a man or a woman and a woman should not have sex or get married...but there is plenty of scripture indicating Gods desire for man and woman to be together.

If I am wrong I am sure someone here will correct me...lol.

Interesting how this thread isn't really about what the bible says about homosexuality it is about whether or not we are born gay or if it is something we learn. However, if we are to acknowledge that not any one of us has the wisdom and supreme knowledge or objectivity to determine what is right or just for anyone...there is only one supreme being so it is His word upon which we should rely when in doubt of what is moral and just or not...but we rarely do.

Myself included...because we don't want to hear what we already know. We want what we want and we want to do what feels good not always what feels right. We need on a social emotional level to believe we are "good" people and good christians and we kid ourselves into believing that we can serve God and love him yet still go on and do anything that feels good....the bible says otherwise, God tells us through His word how we are to worship Him. He has given us a choice to do it or not becaus ehe wants us to make the right one. God doesn't hate homosexuals any more than he hates murderers. God is a lover of people. He wants us to love people as his disciples. He hates sin and the bible views homosexuality as a sin.

I think , in the absence of any real scientific data showing the facts about this we are all left to our own interpretations based upon .,..what else...our life experiences and personal opinions....that is why, not-so-ironically how every discussion about homosexuality evolves into a discussion of the bible because to what are we to measure by when faced with indecision about anything moral?

If we do not measure the levels of morality by someone greater than ourselves we are only bouncing ideas around from imperfect human being to imperfect human being.

If there was an object that was to be measured and several people all stood around guessing at their opinion of its size who would be right? No one.

What if one person pulled out a ruler and measured the object in question, showing factually how long it was, I wonder how readily the people who were incorrect would be to judge the accuracy or validity of that ruler. Many I think would still argue that it was indeed the length they said it was. My point...when in doubt of what is right or wrong maybe rely upon the bible not our imperfect selves.

If anyone is still reading this...lol...you're probably wondering what this has to do with whether or not gays are born gay or it is a learned behavior.....I think based upon what the bible says it is impossible to be born gay...it is a choice that we can either control or not....much like everything we do on a daily basis.....that said, there is hypocracy in even what I write here though I am being as honest as I know how to be....~sigh

 

[Deleted member 2452]

i accept your challange ticklemeee

i have a best friend who i've known since 1971.
i love him more than a brother, and he feels the same way.
the night he was thrown out of his home by the shariff, his wife had filled for divorce w/o telling him (and made some horrible lie about him abusing her and their kids), he came to me. i held him crying through the night. when the last time my wife cheated on me, and i thought i had a heart atack because of it (i didn't want to live so i didn't go to the hospital) he stayed with me all night, talking, and holding me.
so yes we straight guys can be sensitive, and we're not even bi-curious!
geez talk about sterotyping!
steve

 

[natural tickler]

"...however, what I have found out that being hetero gives ya more options sexually than homo. the feelings in a hetero are more natural, real, emotional. Can you get those feelings homo without moving from man to man? I doubt you could"

Natural will now tell us how he KNOWS about the ways homosexuals can't feel anything natural, real, or emotional, won't he?

And will some so-called expert out there please tell he how Adam and Steve violate the sanctity of THEIR marriage? What kind of bullshit is that? I have a healthy marriage, how do the activities of homosexuals violate the sanctity of MY marriage?

Knox, very simple, my friend. Let me clarify my earlier statements if anyone was offended. First of all, we had grown up learning that the relationships between two people were man and woman. Anything else was considered wrong. That's the way we grew up. Now as society has become more tolerable and understanding more homo relationships are out there now, and the people who grew up on old fashioned beliefs and values see this as wrong or weird. Second, I talked about naturalness. It is more natural for heteros because you get true, honest real feelings towards that person, relationship. I truly believe you can't in a homo relationship because that person is always thinking about moving from man to man, woman to woman, etc., so the real feelings can't be displayed because subconsciously that person is not thinking about relationships, what others is thinking, and the scrutiny involved in such a relationship. And Knox, the sanctity of your marriage is not violated, but the Bible does not promote same sex marriages, never will, and as youngsters we were raised on these principles

 

[Ticklebell]

"It is more natural for heteros because you get true, honest real feelings towards that person, relationship. I truly believe you can't in a homo relationship because that person is always thinking about moving from man to man, woman to woman, etc., so the real feelings can't be displayed because subconsciously that person is not thinking about relationships, what others is thinking, and the scrutiny involved in such a relationship. "

You assume here that we're all raging sluts, and that the relationship is about sex and nothing else. I'm not looking to hop around at all. In fact my libido is not even high for the average STRAIGHT person. And I feel just as deeply and genuinely as anyone else. Sexuality does not define how human you are. Just as you should never say never, never say always. Nothing is always. You gotta stop relying on stereotypes. It's not fair. "Peoples is peoples."

 

[Oblesklk]

because you get true, honest real feelings towards that person, relationship. I truly believe you can't in a homo relationship because that person is always thinking about moving from man to man, woman to woman, etc., so the real feelings can't be displayed because subconsciously that person is not thinking about relationships

The best response to this is from another anti-homosexual...

areenactor
geez talk about sterotyping!

Indeed.

 

[ShiningIce]

nature's original intent.

I'm glad you said that Pervert. Did you know that there ARE homosexual animals.

 

[BellaRisa]

It is more natural for heteros because you get true, honest real feelings towards that person, relationship. I truly believe you can't in a homo relationship because that person is always thinking about moving from man to man, woman to woman, etc., so the real feelings can't be displayed because subconsciously that person is not thinking about relationships, what others is thinking, and the scrutiny involved in such a relationship.

I was quietly reading this thread until this popped up.

Having been raised by loving, monogamous lesbians, may I say that the above statement was proven quite false by my upbringing, and that of MANY of my friends. My mother and her life-partner were truly, madly, deeply in love, and gave me a fine and stable household until I went to college. With all due respect, may I ask who you are to say what all people in a "homo relationship" are thinking? What does sexual orientation have to do with honor and devotion and loyalty? Frankly, I don't even believe in monogamy, I feel that humans weren't meant for just one mate. But my mom and her partner proved to be the exceptions to that rule. While straight couples were getting divorced left and right, becoming single moms and weekend dads, most of the gay couples I knew were celebrating 10th and 15th and 20th anniversaries.

Straight people are hopping from bed to bed just as casually as gays, if not more. And gays are settling down and raising children and devoting themselves to their partners. To deny that is to deny the world around you.

Bella

 

[BellaRisa]

Didn't answer the question 🙂

Sorry 'bout that folks.

I believe that our sexual preferences are with us from birth, though our environment and the belief systems imprinted from childhood channel how and if we express our true desires.

Bella

 

[mabus]

One more example of close-mindedness:

The Big Chill at the Lab
By BOB HERBERT

A list of nearly 200 scientific researchers has been compiled and given to federal officials by the Traditional Values Coalition, a conservative group that goes wild over gay issues and federal funding of research related to human sexuality.

The list, which has sent a chill through some researchers, is being used by the coalition and its government allies in attempts to discredit the researchers and challenge or revoke their federal grants. It's a sloppy, dangerous and wildly inaccurate list, put together by people who are freaked out by the content of the studies, and unconcerned about their value.

The targeted studies cover a wide range of topics related to health and sexuality, including H.I.V. and AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases and adolescent sexual behavior.

The Web site of the Traditional Values Coalition is bizarrely fixated on sexual matters. The banner headline on the home page the other day blared, "HOMOSEXUAL URBAN LEGENDS: The Series . . ."

The site complained that "nearly $100 million has gone to research many projects which reasonable people, even those with no particular religious or political perspective, would view as prurient."

For a right-wing coalition to be hung up on these matters is one thing. But the coalition's list, which includes some of the most respected scientists and institutions in the country, is circulating among members of Congress and was forwarded to the National Institutes of Health, which is responsible for awarding the crucially important grants.

"It has a lot of people very nervous," said Dr. Thomas Coates, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at the David Geffen School of Medicine at U.C.L.A. "People who have made a career out of this kind of research — well, when you see your name on a list you wonder what's going to happen to your funding."

"The list itself is less important than the context in which it's been generated," said Dr. Judith Auerbach, a vice president of the American Foundation for AIDS Research. Until recently Dr. Auerbach headed the Office of AIDS Research at the National Institutes of Health.

"The context is that in recent months there have been a series of specific inquiries to the N.I.H. from Congressional committee members, through their staffs in particular, asking about specific grants and specific grantees based apparently on the content of those grants."

The content is usually related to such matters as the AIDS virus, high-risk sexual behavior and other topics linked in some way to sexuality.

"Those inquiries come in a very negative tone," said Dr. Auerbach. "And they cast aspersions on the quality and the content of the science — from someone who doesn't know how to conduct science, and is not a scientist. So the N.I.H. has been put in the position frequently in the last year of having to re-justify research that has already been peer-reviewed, approved and funded."

Science has to suffer when the know-nothings come traipsing through the laboratories, infecting the research with their religious beliefs and political ideologies. Andrea Lafferty is the executive director of the Traditional Values Coalition, which she says represents more than 43,000 churches.

"What makes us unique among all the conservative groups," she said, "is that I believe we truly represent the body of Christ."

Ms. Lafferty said she personally gave the list of scientific researchers to Representative Billy Tauzin, a Louisiana Republican who is chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. One of its subcommittees has been reviewing the awarding of grants by N.I.H.

"We never said any grant on there was bad," said Ms. Lafferty. But she said she wanted to know why the grants were being funded, and why so many had to do with H.I.V. and AIDS.

Ms. Lafferty acknowledged that her group has a problem with homosexuality. "We're concerned that it's a behavior-based lifestyle, that you're not born that way," she said.

She insisted that the coalition does not oppose research on H.I.V. and AIDS, but added, "How many times do you have to study something to find out how to stop the spread of AIDS?"

The public officials who got their hands on this sinister list could have thrown it in the garbage. Instead, the list is circulating, like an insidious disease, and some scientists are worried that they are not immune.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

so mabus, if you're not pro-homosexual...

you should loose your first amendment rights?

steve

 

[omega]

What is marriage? What should it be?

I believe that homosexual activity is sin. But am I going to stop anyone who is doing it? NO! If two homosexuals want to get married, am I going to stop them? NO! I cannot and do not want to force anyone to stop what they want to do.

Now I know that many people are applauding the above paragraph.

So let's continue on with not stopping people from doing what they want to do.

If three men want to get married to each other, should we stop them? NO! IF two women and three men want to get married to each other, should we stop them? NO! If five people all married to each other want the employer of one to provide health benefits for all five, should we stop them? NO! If a man wants to marry his car and claim it as a dependent on his income tax, should we stop him? NO!