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HA HA. It looks like Lucas did tinker with the DVD releases for The OT of STAR WARS
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Dave2112
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It will be.
There's a history behind the relatively tame fight between Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH. Dooku kept up with his lightsaber technique, and was a dedicated master of Form II (there's a thread for this somewhere that I wrote).
At the time of ANH, there weren't any lightsaber-wielding opponents left for Vader to fight. He'd gotten a bit rusty and was still coming to grips with his cybernetic body. He was also incredibly strong in the Force and utilized Form V, which is a power form without the acrobatics of Form IV. Obi-Wan became a master of Form III after watching Qui-Gon get cut down. Form III is a defensive form, and old Ben was a master practitioner. He also hadn't truly fought anyone in decades.
The whole point of the fight between Vader and Kenobi wasn't a duel to the death for Ben. Both knew that he didn't stand a chance anymore. The point was that Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to allow the others to escape. It wasn't so much a duel of the blades as it was a showdown of wills. Final vengeance for Vader, atonement for Obi-Wan. For all of Vader's power, Kenobi's Form III held him off until he chose to sacrifice himself.
Sometimes you have to look beyond the effects and understand the underlying story. And that's what bothers me so much about people griping about changes. Did the overall story change? No. What amazes me is that the ones who complain are self-proffesed "fans". I for one love the new discs and am happy to see the story told the way Lucas envisioned it.
There's a history behind the relatively tame fight between Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH. Dooku kept up with his lightsaber technique, and was a dedicated master of Form II (there's a thread for this somewhere that I wrote).
At the time of ANH, there weren't any lightsaber-wielding opponents left for Vader to fight. He'd gotten a bit rusty and was still coming to grips with his cybernetic body. He was also incredibly strong in the Force and utilized Form V, which is a power form without the acrobatics of Form IV. Obi-Wan became a master of Form III after watching Qui-Gon get cut down. Form III is a defensive form, and old Ben was a master practitioner. He also hadn't truly fought anyone in decades.
The whole point of the fight between Vader and Kenobi wasn't a duel to the death for Ben. Both knew that he didn't stand a chance anymore. The point was that Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to allow the others to escape. It wasn't so much a duel of the blades as it was a showdown of wills. Final vengeance for Vader, atonement for Obi-Wan. For all of Vader's power, Kenobi's Form III held him off until he chose to sacrifice himself.
Sometimes you have to look beyond the effects and understand the underlying story. And that's what bothers me so much about people griping about changes. Did the overall story change? No. What amazes me is that the ones who complain are self-proffesed "fans". I for one love the new discs and am happy to see the story told the way Lucas envisioned it.
Greetings master! Padawan Jimmikin reporting back after completing my latest solo mission. I regret to report a calamatous failiure: Domino's said they were out of Ham & Pineapple.
Anyway, to business...
I remember that. Form II was the version that most resembled the dueling of the 19th century, wasn't it? Classical poses, more one-handed work and more focus on facing an opponent also armed with a lightsabre?
Let's clarify my feelings here. I'm not sad that George chooses to tweak the films in certain places; indeed many are changes for the better. What annoys me is that the bearded bugger won't let me buy the old version. The last time I saw the original versions of the Star Wars films I was three or four years old and way too young to appreciate them, let alone take in the detail.
I didn't even become a SW fan until April 2002, when I bought myself a box-set of the VHS re-mastered original trilogy and the TPM DVD. I've not seen them the way most got to know them and because of George being a selfish bastard I won't ever get to, unless I get lucky on eBay.
If none of the other versions had existed, this new one would be still a groundbreaking, bollock bashing impactor of a trilogy. On their own, they're excellent.
Anyway, to business...
Dave2112 said:
I remember that. Form II was the version that most resembled the dueling of the 19th century, wasn't it? Classical poses, more one-handed work and more focus on facing an opponent also armed with a lightsabre?
Dave2112 said:
Let's clarify my feelings here. I'm not sad that George chooses to tweak the films in certain places; indeed many are changes for the better. What annoys me is that the bearded bugger won't let me buy the old version. The last time I saw the original versions of the Star Wars films I was three or four years old and way too young to appreciate them, let alone take in the detail.
I didn't even become a SW fan until April 2002, when I bought myself a box-set of the VHS re-mastered original trilogy and the TPM DVD. I've not seen them the way most got to know them and because of George being a selfish bastard I won't ever get to, unless I get lucky on eBay.
If none of the other versions had existed, this new one would be still a groundbreaking, bollock bashing impactor of a trilogy. On their own, they're excellent.
Dave2112 said:
Quick question Your Master-fullness...
Wouldn't that strategem have been more effective if he'd fought until he fell over or Vader knocked him down? It would've bought more time instead of just letting himself be bi-sected like that.
Of course, such a stance may have been necessary to "become one with the Force" as Obi-Wan did, in which case it was important because he couldn't have figured so prominently in Luke's future without doing it.
BigJim said:
Yeah, one. You're running short on Natalie Portman, uh, study material aren't you? 😉
BigJim said:
Well, OK, you know, one event causes another, OK, but sometimes, you just gotta say, the laws of time and space? Who gives a smeg!
And at the risk of offending his sithliness, the Vader / Kenobi fight scene makes sense IF (and I'm not even pretending to have the same knowledge as Dave here) Kenobi had to be on line-of-sight to Luke in order to not only become one with the force but to activley help him (no other dead Jedi's ever spoken to the living in the flicks have they?). Or, on a less Force-y thought, if he was really looking to motivate Luke to go after Vader knowing he might find out about the whole "yeah, most evil man in the galaxy = your pop" thing. Think you might be right as to the 'passive' self-sacrifice being necessary though, Qui-gon didn't do the vanishing act did he?
To my knowledge the only two Jedi ever to become "one with the Force" were Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Luke certainly had the knowledge required to do so later in his life when he was the grandmaster of the New Jedi Order, but had never actually done it, although he did come within seconds of it once.
Apparently Jacen Solo topped Obi-Wan and Yoda by becomming one with the force while he was actually still alive. He did this in order to slaughter vast numbers of the Yuzaan Vong and drop their leader. This act won the war against the Vong for the Jedi and the New Republic, and Jacen was still alive after it.
Apparently Jacen Solo topped Obi-Wan and Yoda by becomming one with the force while he was actually still alive. He did this in order to slaughter vast numbers of the Yuzaan Vong and drop their leader. This act won the war against the Vong for the Jedi and the New Republic, and Jacen was still alive after it.
BOFH666 said:
Nope, Anakin didn't become one with the Force. At least, Anakin senior didn't. Lei's third child Anakin might have. This is an inncorrect statement in several Star Wars books, which say that he de-materialised at his death, leaving Luke to burn only his armour on the funeral pyre. As anyone who's watched Return of the Jedi can see, Anakin emphatically does not evaporate when he dies. Subsequently appearing as a spectre doesn't constitute becoming one with the Force as far as I know, as many figures do this. And the ability to dematerialise like that comes only from years of specific light side training. Anakin wasn't advanced enough when he was on the light side to know it, and his years on the dark side wouldn't have helped much.
Dave, any chance of a casting vote on the specifics of these matters eternal?
I think Anakin junior does appear as a spectre to Jaina at some point and the manner of his death (using the Force to turn himself into a nuclear bomb) may constitute the same thing as the physical disintegration of Obi-Wan's and Yoda's corpses. Again, I'm not sure.
Ah... this kinda depends on whether or not becoming one with the force is a requirement to do the ghost thing I think. I'm sure Anakin appears to Leia at some point in the extended universe, though only once (it's been years since I read the books though) and of course we see him at the end of ROTJ. Plus the fact we now see him as the younger Anakin Skywalker might suggest his sprit joined the force when he left the light side... or something.
My brain hurts
My brain hurts
Anakin Snr. appeared to Leia on the day after the Battle of Endor, in the novel Truce at Bakura.
As for the ghost thing, there's such a thing in the real world of mediumship that's known as an "enabler". This is a spirit of someone who's been "over there" for longer and is more acclimatised. When a person who's only recently died wants to make contact through a psychic medium the more experienced spirit acts as an enabler to bring their spirit through, as they couldn't do it on their own.
I doubt George Lucas knows this, but maybe Anakin was brought through by Obi-Wan and Yoda? *shrugs*
As for the ghost thing, there's such a thing in the real world of mediumship that's known as an "enabler". This is a spirit of someone who's been "over there" for longer and is more acclimatised. When a person who's only recently died wants to make contact through a psychic medium the more experienced spirit acts as an enabler to bring their spirit through, as they couldn't do it on their own.
I doubt George Lucas knows this, but maybe Anakin was brought through by Obi-Wan and Yoda? *shrugs*
Hang on a mucking finute...
I'm watching ANH through for the first, complete time and I've noticed something. When Alec Guiness disarms the tractor beam on the Death Star I remember the words "tractor beam controls" or something written above the panel. Now they appear to be written in Japanese or something. Anyone else noticed this?
I'm watching ANH through for the first, complete time and I've noticed something. When Alec Guiness disarms the tractor beam on the Death Star I remember the words "tractor beam controls" or something written above the panel. Now they appear to be written in Japanese or something. Anyone else noticed this?
Yep, they replaced all the english with Aurebesh, the official font of the star wars universe (ask for it by name!). Uh, wait, make that MOST of the english, I believe the needle on the interogation droid still has "Made In England" written on it.
Aurebesh? Sounds like a silly idea to me. First time I've heard of it. They speak the common language of the dominant race's planet of origin, so why don't they use the written alphabet of it too?
Strange. 😕
Strange. 😕
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It's been around for.. oh, I think ten years or so, something like that. Started off in a star wars role playing/adventure game of the non-computer variety called "Star Wars Miniatures Battles Companion" published in 1993. It's appeared in at least the first movie on the readout of Anakin's Naboo Starfighter when Artoo is 'talking' to him, and I think it's in the Correscant (I never can spell that right) scenes as well on some of the buildings and signs.
At least I think that's right, where's the Jedi when you need him?
At least I think that's right, where's the Jedi when you need him?
I-M-P-E-R-I-A-L C-E-N-T-E-R
(Sorry, that's heading into way geeky star wars fandom even for me)
The stuff in the x-wing I haven't got a CLUE about, red on black is hard enough to read at the best of times, add in the quality of VHS and.... But as far as I know that's not Auerbesh (though god knows what it actually is).
God this is getting sad... quick get back on Red Dwarf and other BBC comedy quotes, that way everyone will just asume we're insane.
(Sorry, that's heading into way geeky star wars fandom even for me)
The stuff in the x-wing I haven't got a CLUE about, red on black is hard enough to read at the best of times, add in the quality of VHS and.... But as far as I know that's not Auerbesh (though god knows what it actually is).
God this is getting sad... quick get back on Red Dwarf and other BBC comedy quotes, that way everyone will just asume we're insane.
I may be making assumptions here, but I think the funeral pyre scene in ROTJ, with the camera tilting to the sky at the end, is supposed to represent Vader/Anakin's spirit (the smoke) leaving his body and ascending to the next world. I believe there is even something like this mentioned in the novel by James Kahn. But that could just be metaphorical, I guess.
A quote from the extremely bad novelisation of Return of the Jedi
As the flames enveloped the corpse, smoke rose from the vents in the mask, almost like a black spirit, finally freed. Luke stared with a fierce sorrow at the conflageration. Silently, he said his last goodbye.
I'd say it was being metaphorical personally. The joy of such a book is that you can emply your own interpretation to it and be buggered to anyone else's.
The big beef I have with novelisations, is that the writers unfailingly write them from reading the script, and often an earlier version of it that is subsequently heavily edited. The novelisation of Terminator 2 has huge differences between it and the film. ROTJ has some significant ones.
It is also sterile. The description of Luke losing his temper at Vader's taunting about Leia, bursting out and beating his father's arse into the ground carries no emotion or flourishing description with it at all. I honestly believe that I could have done a better job myself. I've actually contemplated doing just that with the final three or four scenes from ROTJ and posting them here to see what people think.
As the flames enveloped the corpse, smoke rose from the vents in the mask, almost like a black spirit, finally freed. Luke stared with a fierce sorrow at the conflageration. Silently, he said his last goodbye.
I'd say it was being metaphorical personally. The joy of such a book is that you can emply your own interpretation to it and be buggered to anyone else's.
The big beef I have with novelisations, is that the writers unfailingly write them from reading the script, and often an earlier version of it that is subsequently heavily edited. The novelisation of Terminator 2 has huge differences between it and the film. ROTJ has some significant ones.
It is also sterile. The description of Luke losing his temper at Vader's taunting about Leia, bursting out and beating his father's arse into the ground carries no emotion or flourishing description with it at all. I honestly believe that I could have done a better job myself. I've actually contemplated doing just that with the final three or four scenes from ROTJ and posting them here to see what people think.
Okay, A New Hope is now entirely watched. Here's the changes and tweaks I noticed...
1/ Yavin is a hell of a lot more noticeable in the sky over Yavin 4 as the Rebellion fighters take off. Deeper colour too.
2/ Han's money boxes have changed colour from white to green; the ones he's loading into the Falcon when Luke trys to persuade him to stay.
3/ The explosions during the battle of Yavin are now a very dark orange instead of yellow and white.
4/ Something is different about the sound, especially when two or more people are talking. One of them will sound the right distance away, the other one will sound like they're 20 feet away. Odd.
5/ This one is actually a worseening of the SFX, not an improvement! The TIE fighters are all surrounded by shaded boxes as they cross the screen thata re lighter in colour than the surrounding sky. I didn't notice this in the VHS special editions.
6/ The rebel pilots helmets seem to be different colours and designs now.
7/ The interior of the TIE fighters look different, although I'm not sure how.
8/ The TIE fighter that knocked Vader out of control seconds before Luke lowers the boom on the Death star now just looses control trying to fly evasively instead of being shot by Han and flying out of control due to damage. Han only get vader's starboard wingman now.
9/ Vader's electronic breathing as his TIE advanced spins away from the Death star has been removed.
10/ When the Death Star goes supernova, there is now a nebulous aura at the edge of the explosion.
11/ The Death Star's detonation has a different sound.
12/ Leia's eyeshadow at the medal ceremony on Yavin 4 is a different colour.
13/ The lightsabre blades in the Obi-Wan Vs. Vader duel are more defined now, like in Episodes 1 & 2. Not so when Luke tests his lightsabre in Ben's cave though.
14/ Jabba has a different appearance in the scene added prior to the departure from Tatooine. New CG effects I guess.
Anyone spot any others?
1/ Yavin is a hell of a lot more noticeable in the sky over Yavin 4 as the Rebellion fighters take off. Deeper colour too.
2/ Han's money boxes have changed colour from white to green; the ones he's loading into the Falcon when Luke trys to persuade him to stay.
3/ The explosions during the battle of Yavin are now a very dark orange instead of yellow and white.
4/ Something is different about the sound, especially when two or more people are talking. One of them will sound the right distance away, the other one will sound like they're 20 feet away. Odd.
5/ This one is actually a worseening of the SFX, not an improvement! The TIE fighters are all surrounded by shaded boxes as they cross the screen thata re lighter in colour than the surrounding sky. I didn't notice this in the VHS special editions.
6/ The rebel pilots helmets seem to be different colours and designs now.
7/ The interior of the TIE fighters look different, although I'm not sure how.
8/ The TIE fighter that knocked Vader out of control seconds before Luke lowers the boom on the Death star now just looses control trying to fly evasively instead of being shot by Han and flying out of control due to damage. Han only get vader's starboard wingman now.
9/ Vader's electronic breathing as his TIE advanced spins away from the Death star has been removed.
10/ When the Death Star goes supernova, there is now a nebulous aura at the edge of the explosion.
11/ The Death Star's detonation has a different sound.
12/ Leia's eyeshadow at the medal ceremony on Yavin 4 is a different colour.
13/ The lightsabre blades in the Obi-Wan Vs. Vader duel are more defined now, like in Episodes 1 & 2. Not so when Luke tests his lightsabre in Ben's cave though.
14/ Jabba has a different appearance in the scene added prior to the departure from Tatooine. New CG effects I guess.
Anyone spot any others?
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BigJim said:
Basic
Dave2112
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Gezz...get called away on a mission and I miss everything!
As far as the "one with the Force" thing surrounding the concept of Jedi ghosts and such...
You can't look at it too literally. Obi-Wan appearing to Luke isn't so much a learned ability as it is Obi-Wan's destiny in the Force. (This is what is meant by "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful...") The New Jedi Order explains so much more of this that you can't really get it from the films. Kenobi and Yoda are far from being the only ones who've done it, although they are the only ones in the films. The whole "body dematerializing" mystery should be somewhat alluded to to in Revenge of the Sith. Some do, some don't. The #1 rule of the Force is that there are no rules. The bottom line is, who knows what Ben spent his time on Tatooine doing. There's a lot more to being a Jedi than whipping out the blade and taking names. It is likely that his place in the Force was cemented in those years, and he came to fully understand it. You can't think of "using the Force" as a strictly learned ability. The Force is (for lack of a better word) an entity in and of itself. When Jacen Solo became a true Force beacon, it wasn't an ability he learned, it was a complete and total surrender to the Force, while the Force itself defeated (left blank for those who haven't read it yet). If Jedi spend there entire lives trying to understand the Force, you can't explain it all here.
In NJO, Jedi come to realize that truly becoming One with the Force is an act of pure symbiosis, of allowing the Force to do what it needs to through a living being. Following the will of the Force, if you will.
As far as the debate about Aurabesh...it's called Basic for a reason. During the early development of the Republic, when worlds were first coming together through hyperspace travel, it was realized that so many divergent species and cultures would need a common language. Commerce and trade alone would demand it. Take the writing on the Death Star panel for instance. How many differnet beings and different cultures and companies contracted to build that damn thing? How is the guy working on the turbolifts going to know how it fits into the palns for the infrastructure if it was built by another company from another species? This is why a kid from Tatooine can understand the readouts on something possibly designed by a species a half a galaxy away. This is also why people in the Star Wars Universe often speak so many languages...it's just part of the culture of growing up in a completely connected galaxy. Kids growing up in military families are often bi- or multi-lingual for the same reason.
Here's a link to the monster thread on the Nature of the Force.
http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37044&highlight=Nature+of+the+Force
As far as the "one with the Force" thing surrounding the concept of Jedi ghosts and such...
You can't look at it too literally. Obi-Wan appearing to Luke isn't so much a learned ability as it is Obi-Wan's destiny in the Force. (This is what is meant by "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful...") The New Jedi Order explains so much more of this that you can't really get it from the films. Kenobi and Yoda are far from being the only ones who've done it, although they are the only ones in the films. The whole "body dematerializing" mystery should be somewhat alluded to to in Revenge of the Sith. Some do, some don't. The #1 rule of the Force is that there are no rules. The bottom line is, who knows what Ben spent his time on Tatooine doing. There's a lot more to being a Jedi than whipping out the blade and taking names. It is likely that his place in the Force was cemented in those years, and he came to fully understand it. You can't think of "using the Force" as a strictly learned ability. The Force is (for lack of a better word) an entity in and of itself. When Jacen Solo became a true Force beacon, it wasn't an ability he learned, it was a complete and total surrender to the Force, while the Force itself defeated (left blank for those who haven't read it yet). If Jedi spend there entire lives trying to understand the Force, you can't explain it all here.
In NJO, Jedi come to realize that truly becoming One with the Force is an act of pure symbiosis, of allowing the Force to do what it needs to through a living being. Following the will of the Force, if you will.
As far as the debate about Aurabesh...it's called Basic for a reason. During the early development of the Republic, when worlds were first coming together through hyperspace travel, it was realized that so many divergent species and cultures would need a common language. Commerce and trade alone would demand it. Take the writing on the Death Star panel for instance. How many differnet beings and different cultures and companies contracted to build that damn thing? How is the guy working on the turbolifts going to know how it fits into the palns for the infrastructure if it was built by another company from another species? This is why a kid from Tatooine can understand the readouts on something possibly designed by a species a half a galaxy away. This is also why people in the Star Wars Universe often speak so many languages...it's just part of the culture of growing up in a completely connected galaxy. Kids growing up in military families are often bi- or multi-lingual for the same reason.
Here's a link to the monster thread on the Nature of the Force.
http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37044&highlight=Nature+of+the+Force
I noticed this, too, Jim. It seemed actually that they didn't bother to improve the lightsabers at all until the Vader/Ben fight. Luke's blade looks white for most of the movie.
But if you think that's bad, check out ROTJ. The bit where Luke goes to slice the Emperor's head in half and Vader blocks it is done appallingly. The blades kind of meld into each other in a way that doesn't make any sense. You'll know what I mean when you see it.
