Howard Dean's Comments

[kyle]

Former Vermont governor Howard Dean was harshly rebuked by several of his Democratic rivals here Tuesday night for offending whites and blacks alike by recently saying he wanted "to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

Link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20031105/ts_washpost/a64780_2003nov4

This is some Bull #@$%!

I live in the South. I do not have a confederate flag in my truck but I could name about ten dozen that do. The ones I know that sport this symbol with pride don't do it because they were so supportive of the civil war (even though the Civil War was faught over federalist vs. anti-federalist beliefs, but that's another argument), but because it symbolizes southern pride. Not pride in white or black or any other BS like that, but pride in simply being brought up in the South with conserative beliefs and shared interest in hunting, fishing, and muddin' (you can guess).

The fact that Dean was rebuked for his remarks eats at me. Even though Dean did generalize and say it was a symbol of poor whites, which I know is not true; I know plenty of kids from the private school sector as well as the trailer park that love the flag. But that isn't the issue. This bothers me so much because it is one symbol I know so many Southern males relate to. By criticizing Dean they are also saying it's wrong to relate to that symbol in any positive way.

I know this issue has taken many forms (Diff. southern states battle's over the state flag, etc.) but it seems Dean was trying to appeal to a less-offensive side of it. I'm getting more and more tired as I write so I'll cut to the chase. If a local mayor candidate in the south were to point out the Afro-Centrics store, which sells items related to pride-in-africa-and where-you-came-from stuff (simplest way for me to define it in my fatigued rambling). And this candidate suggested they close because that the store did not promote community unity and brotherly love amongst everyone. Most likely black people would tell him to shut the hell up, and the general response from the american public would agree. That's not happening on this issue. Hence the double standard.

Sorry for any errors but I'm working on one hour of sleep here.

That's my $0.02

 

[Limeoutsider]

Some people just look for stuff to bicker about, petty as they are.

 

[Dave2112]

Exactly. With the state of politics today, the intention of a statement is never considered before the exact quote is plastered all over every magazine and newspaper...dissected, misquoted and interpreted to fit every possible viewpoint.

People who fear an end to the Good Ol' Boy Network have yet another thing to pick apart and twist to thier needs, while those with enough intelligence to understand the underlying concept will see the rebukes for what they are. Desperation.

 

[Limeoutsider]

"Anything you say can and will be misquoted and used against you"






<-- big brother is watching

 

[His Divine Shadow]

People just can't pass up the cance to argue about something, regardless of whether they truely understand it or not.🙄 Quacks.

 

[Krokus]

The guy's just a typical moron....and statements like that prove it.

 

[Knox The Hatter]

It mattereth not. I'm voting for him regardless.

 

[ShiningIce]

Southern pride..................riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight 🙄

 

[Moses25]

Shining Ice........riiiiiiiiiiiiight. 🙄



Quiet, you.

Cheers.😀

 

[WorkInProgress]

Okay, here's my view.

First of all, as a scholar of American history, I can tell you that the Civil War was fought over the combined issues of federal power versus states rights, and slavery. Chief among the states' rights that Confederates were defending was the right to own slaves.

Secondly, yes I do believe that white Southerners are telling the truth when they say that the flag is not a symbol for slavery to them. However, when I look at the record of Southern racism in the 20th century, and at how hard many white Southerners fought to maintain a caste system that inflicted barbaric violence and daily psychological indignities and debilitations on the black population, I consider it reasonable for black people to consider the Confederate flag to be a symbol of that, and I consider it reasonable to ask Southern whites to find a new symbol, one which is unambiguously anti-racist.

Put further, I do not ask any Southern white person to be ashamed of being a Southern white person, or to be on the defensive about racism. I do, however, ask all Americans of every stripe to be in agreement that racism is this country's greatest evil, that the only legitimate vision of America at any given time was one in which whites and blacks would live together as equals, and that every person who has ever fought for a vision of America in which whites and blacks did not live together as equals, in any time or place, was an illegitimate American.

(On a side note, I think the whole thing with Afrocentrism is complex. I consider it inevitable that it exists, but I'm not a fan of it. I would just say, if you're an opponent of Afrocentrism, that's fine, but make sure that you're unequivocally devoted to making this country into one where no black person would ever want to be an Afrocentrist. After all, this country's white society has a long history of saying to blacks, "We'll let you know when you can call yourselves Americans, but when we give you permission you'd better show your gratitude.")

As for Howard Dean, I consider his remark insensitive. I consider it clueless rather than malevolent. I also think we've had enough clueless presidents. I'm for Gephardt.

 

[kyle]

...and I consider it reasonable to ask Southern whites to find a new symbol, one which is unambiguously anti-racist.

WorkinProgress,

Judging by your post I will assume you're probably an intelligent guy. But to ask some souther whites to change their symbol?!?! Nah. Nope. Never gonna Happen. Anyone with half a brain should no that's a rediculous thought. I would love to see you ask one of my redneck buddies to remove the flag bumper sticker from his truck. He'd light into your ass. Maybe you just don't understand.

 

[asutickler]

Thousands of men fought and died under the Confederate flag. The majority of these men did not own slaves, and were not fighting to defend state's rights OR the institution of slavery. Rather, they were fighting for the noble purpose of defending their homes and families against an invading force. As such, they should be remembered with honor and dignity, and many see the flag they fought under as a symbol of these brave men.

The Confederate flag has, since the Civil War, been adopted as a symbol of hate and bigotry by certain disgusting racist elements of society... but this is certainly not the affiliation of all who choose to display it. The Ku Klux Klan uses a burning cross as one of their symbols, yet Christians who display the cross aren't uniformly branded as racists. The same respect should be accorded to those who choose to display the Confederate flag in remembrance of the lives sacrificed during the Civil War, or as a representation of Southern pride.


Just my two Yankee cents...

 

[MrPartickler]

good points asutickler....

Now explain to us why similar statements are not made in defense of present-day use of the swastika and the Nazi flag to honor those German soldiers who died defending their homes for similar reasons?

Would any politician today who made such statements--even with the best of intentions--have a political future? 🙄

 

[WorkInProgress]

>> But to ask some souther whites to change their
>> symbol?!?! Nah. Nope. Never gonna Happen. Anyone
>> with half a brain should no that's a rediculous
>> thought. I would love to see you ask one of my
>> redneck buddies to remove the flag bumper sticker
>> from his truck. He'd light into your ass. Maybe
>> you just don't understand.


Oh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not predicting that they will, I'm only saying, I think less of them for the fact that they won't. I have no quarrel with what has been said about the motives of the Confederate soldiers in the war, and I certainly do know that the soldiers themselves tended not to be slaveholders: many resented having to give their lives to defend the power of the slaveholders. That's not what I'm taking issue with. My issue is, people need to know what the Confederate flag symbolizes today, currently, in the minds of many people, including the fact that the South Carolina state legislature started flying it in 1963, plus or minus a year, as an unmistakable symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement.

Let me also say, I do believe that, legally, freedom of speech includes the right for private individuals (not to be confused with state or local government agencies) to fly the Confederate flag. But I won't date a woman who flies it, and I won't vote for a presidential candidate who has in any way, even by implication, encouraged or condoned it. By the way, our current president made a speech in South Carolina during the 2000 campaign, saying that it was time for people who don't live in South Carolina to "just butt out," referring to the NAACP campaign against the Confederate flag on state property. That sounds eerily close to the days when the term "outside agitators" was commonly used to refer to the civil rights movement.

By the way, I said earlier that I wasn't going to address Afrocentrism, but I think now I will. Historically, part of racism was always a set of strategies to keep black people feeling inferior as well as being treated as inferiors. Part of that set of strategies was the caricaturing of Africa as nothing but a continent of dimwitted savages running around. That induced, in the black population, an ongoing struggle not to feel inferior, and with Afrocentrism we find part of that struggle. Does Afrocentrism include some mythologizing of history to make Africa look more glorious than it really is? Of course. Did the Afrocentrists invent the behavior of making myths about Africa to define the place of American blacks? No, they didn't. They joined late in the game. And by no means is Afrocentrism equivalent to white supremacy. One is a struggle against the impulse to feel imperior; the other is a struggle to maintain an undeserved position of superiority. What we need is a society that isn't anything-centric, and when it comes to working toward that society, a good first step is to hold yourself to the highest standard of behavior (in terms of going to lengths not to be associated with any symbols that could even remotely be perceived as racially hateful), something that the people who still fly the Confederate flag are, in my own opinion, not willing to do.

 

[Oblesklk]

Fun with taking quotes out of context 101

I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR.

So in a nutshell he's complaining about the politics of fear that have been institutionalized in the south for the past generation; that most of the families down there should reanalyze their political leanings to see what would benefit their family best.

Is he right? Who knows.

It's too bad we force politicans to talk like idiots in order to get their point across; they cannot speak their mind, or say the things that really need to be said, or get crucified for it.

I believe in political correction to a very small extent, basically to the point that people should think about what they're saying, before it's said. However, if you take it too far, it really lobotomizes our ability to be elequant in a public arena.

 

[ShiningIce]

Take Stars and Bars and burn it. The civil war is over the south LOST. Move the @#%% on. 🙄

 

[kyle]

I suppose this argument just comes down to personal beliefs. I know my friends that like that flag are good peole, and that race is no factor to them. Today I asked several of the black guys that I hang out with what they thought about it, and they hold the same views as I do. If you're looking for something to bitch about, you'll find it.

 

[WorkInProgress]

Wow, if that quotation above is what it's actually about, then yes, you're right. If every reference he made to the people with Confederate flags included a suggestion that they should put down those flags as well as vote Democratic, then I apologize for what I said.

I will add, he does romanticize the FDR thing a little. Yes, blacks voted for FDR, but mainly in the North. Blacks in the South were still heavily disfranchised. What's more, because the Democrats representing the South in Congress were put there by whites only, FDR steered carefully away from upsetting the racial status quo in the South because he needed the Southern Democrats' support.

(I teach college history.)