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If you ran TNA, what would you do?

thetmfobserver

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This morning, I watched Thursday's episode of TNA. Well, that's not entirely true. I fast forwarded Thursday's episode, because, barring the Samoa Joe / Abyss match, which stunk, there was not much else I found interesting. (Ok, the Mr. Anderson / Bischoff segment was fun, and the Anderson / RVD match had its moments). It got me thinking. . .

If you ran TNA, what would you do?

Now, I know we're not promoters, or have any inside knowledge of how to run a company, but I just watched a 2 hour program with 2 matches (I refuse to count Victoria and the hot girl, whatever her name is). I think I could do better.

---

1. First things first, every TNA program would begin and end with a wrestling match. A 10-20 minute, action packed, no stupid ending wrestling match. There are enough talented wrestlers in TNA to pull this off for a month without repeating wrestlers, I think.

2. All interview / promo segments would have a maximum length of 3 minutes. Come on out, say what you need to say, and be done with it. If someone else is coming out, I'll stretch it to 5 minutes, but that's it. There's nothing that needs to be said that will take longer than that.

3. Of the "old and decrepit" category (Hogan, Bischoff, Flair, Nash, Sting, and even Foley), only two members will be allowed to appear on each program, and only one of them may speak. Though the Flair / Hogan hug was worth a chuckle, I spent wayyyy too much time watching their mouths move really fast as I sped through the opening 45 minutes.

4. Knockouts will be given one match per program, and one promo per program (3 minutes). Unless I decide to go through with my "oiled and tickled gauntlet", in which case, I might change the entire program from top to bottom.

5. The ratio of wrestling to talking / any other segment will be AT LEAST 2 to 1. TNA's best chance of success is to have the best actual matches in the world, and not by having 3-4 factions.

---

Your thoughts and ideas?
 
Get rid of hogan, bishoff, sting, nash. Let the x division shine and have quality, entertaining matches. I would give full, creative, freedom to paul heyman.
 
Get rid of hogan, bishoff, sting, nash. Let the x division shine and have quality, entertaining matches. I would give full, creative, freedom to paul heyman.

Heyman wanted full control and said he would be in TNA now if they had given it to him. I think that ship has sailed.
 
At this point, as much as I hate to say it, I would probably sell it to Vince McMahon. However things I would do (if I ran things) would include FIRING RUSSO! I would also get rid of the entire booking staff. I would lose Hogan, I would lose Flair, I would lose Bischoff, I would get rid of every single guy who was a mega star in the 80's or 90's who isn't prepared to play ball and put over the up an coming guys. Then I would start a REAL wellness program, and force guys like Angle and Hardy to clean themselves up. If they didn't then they would be GONE.

Then, once all the trash has been cleared away, and order has been restored to the locker room, I would hire Paul Heyman or Jim Cornette and bring TNA back to what got them on Spike to begin with... being different from the WWE. That means building the show around the in ring performance of the wrestlers, and not on lame ass skit comedy that nobody wants to see on TNA anyway. If you are doing the exact same thing WWE is doing then what is anybodies motivation going to be to watch you show. You do the opposite of what the other guy is doing, you build the wrestling, you push the work horses, and you respect the loyal performers.

Promo's are important, but when the other guy has more talking then wrestling on his show, you go the other way and put more wrestling then talking on your show. You may start out appealing to a small audience at first, but over time word of mouth will bring you up. Most importantly you never, ever count McMahon out. Turner and Bischoff made that mistake and look what happened to WCW. You don't compete with Vince, you just focus on doing the best show you can do, and try to be unique.
 
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At this point, as much as I hate to say it, I would probably sell it to Vince McMahon. However things I would do (if I ran things) would include FIRING RUSSO! I would also get rid of the entire booking staff. I would lose Hogan, I would lose Flair, I would lose Bischoff, I would get rid of every single guy who was a mega star in the 80's or 90's who isn't prepared to play ball and put over the up an coming guys. Then I would start a REAL wellness program, and force guys like Angle and Hardy to clean themselves up. If they didn't then they would be GONE.

Then, once all the trash has been cleared away, and order has been restored to the locker room, I would hire Paul Heyman or Jim Cornette and bring TNA back to what got them on Spike to begin with... being different from the WWE. That means building the show around the in ring performance of the wrestlers, and not on lame ass skit comedy that nobody wants to see on TNA anyway. If you are doing the exact same thing WWE is doing then what is anybodies motivation going to be to watch you show. You do the opposite of what the other guy is doing, you build the wrestling, you push the work horses, and you respect the loyal performers.

Promo's are important, but when the other guy has more talking then wrestling on his show, you go the other way and put more wrestling then talking on your show. You may start out appealing to a small audience at first, but over time word of mouth will bring you up. Most importantly you never, ever count McMahon out. Turner and Bischoff made that mistake and look what happened to WCW. You don't compete with Vince, you just focus on doing the best show you can do, and try to be unique.

if you get rid of the icons , theres no product...


There is very limited new talent that carry a main event much less try to carry a wrestling organization.

The Flairs, Hogans, Stings, Jarretts, Nashs, Steiners, Foleys are still the wrestlers people wanna see . People dont want to see Hogan wrestle ; but they still wanna see him working for the organization in some capacity.


There are tons are great wrestlers who never put over younger talent . why put yourself out of a job ?


Who really wants to see Desmond wolfe vs. amazing red in a pay-per-view main event ?


truth of the matter is there are very few wrestlers under 30 who are capable of main event status. Even guys around 30 or a bit older have been in the biz over a decade and have learned the ropes from guys like Big Show, hbk, flair, Hart, or similiar legends.
 
Despite how the storylines have been slacking and rehashed, its resulting in higher ratings for TNA and thats what matters for TNA

In regards to the current storyline
Build up the Immortals storyline, have them crush everyone, yes it will get boring but it will build. Eventually you have to have a break in Fortune, Possibly Styles and maybe Kaz or both. AJ goes back to his old character of being a TNA icon with Kaz or Lethal and they feud with the Immortals, esp if AJ wants the world title.

That or they somehow have a Immortals vs Fortune feud. 2 heel groups going at each other would be well, esp when you got good talent on both sides. It could also rehash a good Hogan/Flair feud.

If Matt Hardy does come to TNA, that could start either a Hardys feud or start an alliance which then could begin to degrade the Immortals and cause more breakups. Either way it could lead to a Hardy Boys reuniting vs a very capable tag team division.

Despite how much of a genius Heyman is/was, he is proven to be a fool with money so in a company that is not financially invincible, theres no reason to prove that he could run a company that big
 
if you get rid of the icons , theres no product...

If there was any real "product" would this thread have even been started.


There is very limited new talent that carry a main event much less try to carry a wrestling organization.

Of course there isn't, that's what happens when you fire good talented young performers to hire over the hill hacks like Hogan and Flair.

The Flairs, Hogans, Stings, Jarretts, Nashs, Steiners, Foleys are still the wrestlers people wanna see . People dont want to see Hogan wrestle ; but they still wanna see him working for the organization in some capacity.

Oh, so raiting are like golf scores, the lower the number the better you are doing.

There are tons are great wrestlers who never put over younger talent . why put yourself out of a job ?

That question is beyond stupid.

Who really wants to see Desmond Wolfe vs. amazing red in a pay-per-view main event ?

I have seen Red live at an indie, I would rather watch him now, then Hogan or Flair 30 years ago.

truth of the matter is there are very few wrestlers under 30 who are capable of main event status. Even guys around 30 or a bit older have been in the biz over a decade and have learned the ropes from guys like Big Show, hbk, flair, Hart, or similar legends.

That's funny, because AJ was main eventing TNA, Joe has main evented TNA, Daniels has Main Evented TNA, hell Joe vs Daniel vs Styles was one of the best Triple Threat Matches I have ever seen. Then again when none of the Geriatric Mafia will put you over it is hard to get to the top, even when the entire arena chants your name every night.

By the way, the only legends in the Hart Family are Owen and Stu, the rest of them are puss sucking Maggots.
 
If there was any real "product" would this thread have even been started.




Of course there isn't, that's what happens when you fire good talented young performers to hire over the hill hacks like Hogan and Flair.



Oh, so raiting are like golf scores, the lower the number the better you are doing.



That question is beyond stupid.



I have seen Red live at an indie, I would rather watch him now, then Hogan or Flair 30 years ago.



That's funny, because AJ was main eventing TNA, Joe has main evented TNA, Daniels has Main Evented TNA, hell Joe vs Daniel vs Styles was one of the best Triple Threat Matches I have ever seen. Then again when none of the Geriatric Mafia will put you over it is hard to get to the top, even when the entire arena chants your name every night.

By the way, the only legends in the Hart Family are Owen and Stu, the rest of them are puss sucking Maggots.

TNA drew its highest rating last thurs since January, thats with the aging stars. Its also the highest thursday rating they have had this year, with the highest going to the failed attempt to go up against Raw. Theres a reason why they finished that fan voting ranking system. The Marks(like myself) will naturally vote Wolfe or Styles or Samoa Joe as the top contenders(or RVD now since hes a challenger) but you need to build a feud around it. Look at right now, you can't start a feud with Wolfe and Hardy cuz theres no heat there. Also, TNA is iffy to use Wolfe cuz he is a concussion risk

Point is simple though, people tune in to see Hogan and the other legends. They also show up for Legends. TNA ran a house show in Illinois this week, 2500 capacity, it filled only 500 seats. The only legend there was foley and to use a good reviewer quote
Don’t get me wrong, I had fun, but No A.J., No Pope, No Desmond Wolfe, No MCMG, Anderson couldn’t wrestle, RVD, Kurt and Jeff sat this one out… basically TNA sold this show on, well, the name of TNA which means Trust No Advertisements…
 
TNA drew its highest rating last thurs since January, thats with the aging stars. Its also the highest thursday rating they have had this year, with the highest going to the failed attempt to go up against Raw. Theres a reason why they finished that fan voting ranking system. The Marks(like myself) will naturally vote Wolfe or Styles or Samoa Joe as the top contenders(or RVD now since hes a challenger) but you need to build a feud around it. Look at right now, you can't start a feud with Wolfe and Hardy cuz theres no heat there. Also, TNA is iffy to use Wolfe cuz he is a concussion risk

Point is simple though, people tune in to see Hogan and the other legends. They also show up for Legends. TNA ran a house show in Illinois this week, 2500 capacity, it filled only 500 seats. The only legend there was foley and to use a good reviewer quote

thank you !!
 
If there was any real "product" would this thread have even been started.




Of course there isn't, that's what happens when you fire good talented young performers to hire over the hill hacks like Hogan and Flair.



Oh, so raiting are like golf scores, the lower the number the better you are doing.



That question is beyond stupid.



I have seen Red live at an indie, I would rather watch him now, then Hogan or Flair 30 years ago.



That's funny, because AJ was main eventing TNA, Joe has main evented TNA, Daniels has Main Evented TNA, hell Joe vs Daniel vs Styles was one of the best Triple Threat Matches I have ever seen. Then again when none of the Geriatric Mafia will put you over it is hard to get to the top, even when the entire arena chants your name every night.

By the way, the only legends in the Hart Family are Owen and Stu, the rest of them are puss sucking Maggots.

AJ Styles is 32 and has been wrestling since 99

Chistopher daniels is 39 and has been wrestling since 91; thats nearly two decades.

Samoa Joe is 31 and has been wrestling since 99.


None of the guys you have mentioned is new or young. When you are trying validate your argument it always helps NOT to give information which contradicts your side and actually benefits the opposite :shrug:

you said it

everynight the entire arena chants the names of the legends. Seems like that is a pretty good sign the fans are showing up to see the icons and legends and not the new talent


you make this way too easy...:thumbsup:
 
I would leave all the decisions--matches, booking, etc., to the talent, and not just the experienced talent, but ALL talent, for good or nil. Let all the egos clash with no leadership to take charge, while I'd obliviously sit back in my office, like Mayor Adam West. I'd also change the name to T.N.C. (Total Non-stop Chaos Wrestling). 😀 It'll make things more "real" and interesting, and will reveal to the world the side of professional wrestling that people don't see unless reading it second-hand from half-wrong dirt-sheets. People will watch purely because of how bad of a train-wreck it would be.

I would also let people wrestle who have no business being inside ring-ropes, because of how bad they'd botch things, and in rare moments of taking charge, I'd pit them against the best talent to create a high-stress working environment from fear of getting a career-ending injury from a clutz like David Otunga. I figure that should create some honest, negative emotion that will reflect well in promos.

Oh, and in mockery of NXT, I would sometimes have title-shots dictated by completely pointless segments that require the talent to "connect to the T.N.C. fan-base" by utilizing strange words, like "follicle" or "horseshoe", in a manner that will draw cheers or heat.

Ooh! I almost forgot! I would release a DVD about "the Rise and Fall of T.N.C.", with candid interviews with all the talent, talking about how much of a "whack-job" I was, and my "horrible business sense". Naturally, I would be the one interviewing the talent, and I would also be interviewed in one or more segments. I would also release this DVD before the business actually went under, and I would keep all rights to the DVD.
 
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TNA drew its highest rating last thurs since January, thats with the aging stars. Its also the highest thursday rating they have had this year, with the highest going to the failed attempt to go up against Raw. Theres a reason why they finished that fan voting ranking system. The Marks(like myself) will naturally vote Wolfe or Styles or Samoa Joe as the top contenders(or RVD now since hes a challenger) but you need to build a feud around it. Look at right now, you can't start a feud with Wolfe and Hardy cuz theres no heat there. Also, TNA is iffy to use Wolfe cuz he is a concussion risk

Point is simple though, people tune in to see Hogan and the other legends. They also show up for Legends. TNA ran a house show in Illinois this week, 2500 capacity, it filled only 500 seats. The only legend there was foley and to use a good reviewer quote

Ever since TNA brought in Angle, it has been going down hill. The fact that it drew it's highest raiting to date (witch was what exactly?) with the people they have at the top, proves how stupid their fan base it. There is no long term future with Hogan and Flair, and they will not make money building a company around them. You can't sell tickets to House Shows with Hogan and Flair as your top draws, because they are to old and broke down to work house shows. When people look at the roster for the show, they will see Hogan and Flair are not on it, and they will not buy the tickets. If they had kept building on the guys that have been there long turm they would not be in the shit hole they are in now.

For the record, I don't blame Angle, he was a good aquasition for TNA, but his fued with Samoa Joe was poorly booked, and thier was no real build up to it. Word of mouth is the best advertiser, and the friends I have that still watch wrestling have told me TNA is a total joke. They are worse now then they have ever been. If it wasn't for Panda Energy they would probably have folded 2 or 3 years ago.

By the way, Flair doesn't even like TNA, he is only there bacause Vince doesn't want him in the WWE anymore.

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I would leave all the decisions--matches, booking, etc., to the talent, and not just the experienced talent, but ALL talent, for good or nil. Let all the egos clash with no leadership to take charge, while I'd obliviously sit back in my office, like Mayor Adam West. I'd also change the name to T.N.C. (Total Non-stop Chaos Wrestling). 😀 It'll make things more "real" and interesting, and will reveal to the world the side of professional wrestling that people don't see unless reading it second-hand from half-wrong dirt-sheets. People will watch purely because of how bad of a train-wreck it would be.

I would also let people wrestle who have no business being inside ring-ropes, because of how bad they'd botch things, and in rare moments of taking charge, I'd pit them against the best talent to create a high-stress working environment from fear of getting a career-ending injury from a klutz like David Otunga. I figure that should create some honest, negative emotion that will reflect well in promos.

Oh, and in mockery of NXT, I would sometimes have title-shots dictated by completely pointless segments that require the talent to "connect to the T.N.C. fan-base" by utilizing strange words, like "follicle" or "horseshoe", in a manner that will draw cheers or heat.

Ooh! I almost forgot! I would release a DVD about "the Rise and Fall of T.N.C.", with candid interviews with all the talent, talking about how much of a "whack-job" I was, and my "horrible business sense". Naturally, I would be the one interviewing the talent, and I would also be interviewed in one or more segments. I would also release this DVD before the business actually went under, and I would keep all rights to the DVD.

Dude, for a minuet I almost took you seriously LOL.
 
ok first off you have to remember tna was coming of a big paper view that alot of people thought was better then wrestlemania. the need to explain the storyline why people choose to do what they did. obviously the immortal angle is the nwo angle. the show was taped the next night after BFG so the talent did need some rest. thirdly this can now be the true handing of the torche that wcw never got to do 10 years ago. think of it hardy who has pretty much always been a face can now be the heel similar to hogan. i mean he is a really good heel. anderson can and which i think u will see with the injury become like sting. anderson now is very close to what sting was like in early to mid 90s but just a bit more edge (due to the times). i would also get better announcers. tenay has always been a third man broadcaster and tazz well is tazz. if u watch those old wcw clips. what made that story seem so real was bobby the brain henay and tony schavoni and larry zybesko hyping it up. yeah sting coming down from the rafters in the 90s was great. What made it incredible was Tony yelling "oh my God its Sting!!!!!!! Sting is here!!!!!! and bobby saying look at hogan now he has no where to run. i like they way they are going about this feud its gonna finally bring closure for us long time wcw fans and its gonna jump start a new era of legends if they do it right... could u imagine we see anderson briefly and they allow hardy to keep his title for a year and at BFG 11 he takes it from hardy. after playing mind games and keeping everyone out of the loop
 
ok first off you have to remember tna was coming of a big paper view that alot of people thought was better then wrestlemania. the need to explain the storyline why people choose to do what they did. obviously the immortal angle is the nwo angle. the show was taped the next night after BFG so the talent did need some rest. thirdly this can now be the true handing of the torche that wcw never got to do 10 years ago. think of it hardy who has pretty much always been a face can now be the heel similar to hogan. i mean he is a really good heel. anderson can and which i think u will see with the injury become like sting. anderson now is very close to what sting was like in early to mid 90s but just a bit more edge (due to the times). i would also get better announcers. tenay has always been a third man broadcaster and tazz well is tazz. if u watch those old wcw clips. what made that story seem so real was bobby the brain henay and tony schavoni and larry zybesko hyping it up. yeah sting coming down from the rafters in the 90s was great. What made it incredible was Tony yelling "oh my God its Sting!!!!!!! Sting is here!!!!!! and bobby saying look at hogan now he has no where to run. i like they way they are going about this feud its gonna finally bring closure for us long time wcw fans and its gonna jump start a new era of legends if they do it right... could u imagine we see anderson briefly and they allow hardy to keep his title for a year and at BFG 11 he takes it from hardy. after playing mind games and keeping everyone out of the loop

Hardy, as in Jeff Hardy? The guy who's only talent is his ability to jump off of high places. Now I have even less motivation to watch TNA.
 
i dont know man i think ur underrating hardy i think he may prove to be a great heel

I will say this much, I don't think it was right for HHH to cut off his push when he was in the WWE, but I have never been a fan of his style. He overcompensates for his lack of size with stupid ECW style stunts, that are the main reason for his current addiction to Pain Killers.

In short, he is an incompetent moron where performing is concerned.
 
Here's how I'd run TNA....

First: As much as everyone hates the idea, you got to let Bischoff be Bischoff. In my opinion, he not Ted Turner owned WCW, and for two years owned Vince and the then WWF, Eric Bischoff needs to channel that guy again, but I would keep a filter on him to make sure he just doesnt run wild.

Second: Id have TNA grow a set of FUCKING BALLS!!!!
No more of this scared little kitten in the cornor. Perfect example: TNA Impact's monday duel with Monday Night Raw and TNA backs out after a few weeks? Are you kidding me?!

If Im running TNA, Im having a company meeting and the first thing Im saying is "As of right now, we are going play like big boys! This company is going to grow a set and we're going right after WWE and we're going to go all out!" If you wanna play with the big boys, you gotta drop the Osh Gosh Begosh and put on the big boys jeans.

Third: No more momentum killing, no more having ideas and then letting them fall to the wasteside (i.e. The Main Event Mafia vs. The TNA Frontline, The TNA Monday Night special)

This new story with the Hogan/Bischoff Immortal faction Im not getting excited about because I know what's going to happen to it in a few weeks, its going to disappear. If we think we got something going with a storyline, let run with it, put everything we got behind it.

Also with the older icons (Sting, Ric Flair, Kevin Nash and so forth) if they still want to be apart of the business, Im not going to stop them, but Im not going to let them embarress themselves either. If you want to wrestle, have at it, but its going to be very limited, except maybe Sting and Kurt Angle and a few others, if they can still perform at a high level then fine, but Nash, Hogan, and Flair you guys are getting scaled back and we're going to the WWE style of working with superstars. Build up what we got, let them come into there own, market them and then start looking to the future.

Those are the moves I would make.
 
Second: Id have TNA grow a set of FUCKING BALLS!!!!No more of this scared little kitten in the cornor. Perfect example: TNA Impact's monday duel with Monday Night Raw and TNA backs out after a few weeks? Are you kidding me?!.

You would finnished before spring of 2011.
 
Here's how I'd run TNA....

First: As much as everyone hates the idea, you got to let Bischoff be Bischoff. In my opinion, he not Ted Turner owned WCW, and for two years owned Vince and the then WWF, Eric Bischoff needs to channel that guy again, but I would keep a filter on him to make sure he just doesnt run wild.

Second: Id have TNA grow a set of FUCKING BALLS!!!!
No more of this scared little kitten in the cornor. Perfect example: TNA Impact's monday duel with Monday Night Raw and TNA backs out after a few weeks? Are you kidding me?!

If Im running TNA, Im having a company meeting and the first thing Im saying is "As of right now, we are going play like big boys! This company is going to grow a set and we're going right after WWE and we're going to go all out!" If you wanna play with the big boys, you gotta drop the Osh Gosh Begosh and put on the big boys jeans.

Third: No more momentum killing, no more having ideas and then letting them fall to the wasteside (i.e. The Main Event Mafia vs. The TNA Frontline, The TNA Monday Night special)

This new story with the Hogan/Bischoff Immortal faction Im not getting excited about because I know what's going to happen to it in a few weeks, its going to disappear. If we think we got something going with a storyline, let run with it, put everything we got behind it.

Also with the older icons (Sting, Ric Flair, Kevin Nash and so forth) if they still want to be apart of the business, Im not going to stop them, but Im not going to let them embarress themselves either. If you want to wrestle, have at it, but its going to be very limited, except maybe Sting and Kurt Angle and a few others, if they can still perform at a high level then fine, but Nash, Hogan, and Flair you guys are getting scaled back and we're going to the WWE style of working with superstars. Build up what we got, let them come into there own, market them and then start looking to the future.

Those are the moves I would make.

1. You can't use the WCW/WWF feud analogy. When Turner bought NWA and made it WCW, WWF was in its own world and got stagnant. WCW came in with the NWO and other angles and took the lead. WWF re branded and became the juggernaut it is now. The point being is WCW almost ran WWF to bankruptcy(SEE: Bret Hart contract issue) but since WWE is now a company with limitless cash, Bischoff can't run against that and use the same things.
2. When they ran against RAW, their ratings didn't change that much. It was the same fans if not maybe a marginal .1 up. Also, TNA wrestlers are used to the easier schedule of working taped events. Working Mondays means they must go live and it causes a strain on them. Also TNA's ratings was during the early year, not really against much else. Now they really have competition from MNF, or other playoffs going on. TNA does not have the fan base to afford the costs of permanent live telecasts

Regarding flair and others. Why would you take them away when their matches, esp the live event of Foley vs Flair which was a juice fest got the best pops from the crowd? Give the fans what they want
 
First: As much as everyone hates the idea, you got to let Bischoff be Bischoff. In my opinion, he not Ted Turner owned WCW, and for two years owned Vince and the then WWF, Eric Bischoff needs to channel that guy again, but I would keep a filter on him to make sure he just doesnt run wild.

I don't think Bischoff or Hogan care enough about TNA or wrestling to make it happen. All they had was wrestling then. Now Bischoff has shows he wants to create and Hogan has done some TV shows over the years. They're only in it to help themselves.
 
Hulk hogan cannot and with not give up the spot light. Even if he has to crawl to the ring, walk down the isle in crutches. Tna needs less talking and less womens division. Im sorry for being sexist but for the most part we dont want to see women wrestle. Less of this jersey shore rip off with cookie and whatever the other assholes name is. More wrestling please because right now im tired of listening to hogans voice and im tired of listening to tazz over hype something..
 
Hulk hogan cannot and with not give up the spot light. Even if he has to crawl to the ring, walk down the isle in crutches. Tna needs less talking and less womens division. Im sorry for being sexist but for the most part we dont want to see women wrestle. Less of this jersey shore rip off with cookie and whatever the other assholes name is. More wrestling please because right now im tired of listening to hogans voice and im tired of listening to tazz over hype something..

Some of the knockout matches are better than the men's matches

Anything with Hamada is a sight to see
 
What I wouldn't do, is turn it into WCW 2.0, which is pretty much what they're doing. And we all know how well that turned out.
 
i say fuck it let tna run its course and by years end we could see bishoff fired by vince for the second time.
 
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