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Is polyamory just a feel-good euphemism for adultery?

Is Piety a feel-good euphemism for bigotry and intolerance?

Reading the previous posts on this thread, and on the 'master's creed' thread, I have to conclude that for a great many of the people who posted on those two threads the answer is a resounding YES.
It gets very tiresome, the way they keep trotting out the same old fallacies time after time, trying to bully people who know better into belief by mere stridency and vituperation.
Even though such tactics worked in the far distant past, when sources of information could be controlled and literacy was limited, you'd think they'd have learned by now; that kind of thing just won't work in a country where most people are literate and have wide ranges of information sources available. Those old lies don't work any more, because people just know better now!

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.
 
Don't worry yourself, Isabeau. You didn't set this thread on the course it took. That was established as soon as it began.
 
Redmage said:
Don't worry yourself, Isabeau. You didn't set this thread on the course it took. That was established as soon as it began.

o ooops Redmage i accidentally deleted my post when i meant to edit it. lol anway as i was saying, i was just wondering about adultery is all, and if its forgiveable.. but as i said, that is something that has no place in this thread.

isabeau
 
I'm almost sorry I even asked the question. But to give everybody a fair shake I did read through two threads. One was called Tickling vs Pain and the other was called The Masters Creed. From what I can see this whole thing started with a clip that graphically showed a woman stripped naked and brutalized. Drew objected to the clip due to humanitarian reasons, and things went downhill from there.

I do agree that Drew shouldn't have responded to the Masters Creed thread. I don't agree with it any more than he did but he'd already made his point in the first thread. I guess when people feel really strongly about issues of right and wrong, it clouds their judgement.

But I still don't see what all the fuss is about with THIS thread. He's just asking a question, not pointing fingers yet as Johnny pointed out, he's once again being attacked by the very same people. Coincidence? I guess anything's possible.
 
Scarlett Moon said:
I still don't see what all the fuss is about with THIS thread. He's just asking a question, not pointing fingers yet as Johnny pointed out, he's once again being attacked by the very same people. Coincidence? I guess anything's possible.


Howdy Scarlett luv,

Let's do talk about coincidences, shall we?

I find it fascinating that you, Jackpot$, and a few other 'people' I could mention all joined the TMF on the same exact day, and all post with a strikingly similar writing style and most often for the same cause-to support one person in particular who's turn of phrase is remarkably like your own and who tends to need someone, anyone, to support him. Will wonders never cease, the mind boggles. :wow:

My musings and deductions could be my imagination. In fact, there are a few things around here that could be...imaginary. Wouldn't you say?

Bella
 
I'm impressed, Scarlett - you read through those 360 messages in about 8 hours. At least, I'm assuming that you read them all carefully before you came to any conclusions.

To answer your question, though, it's the perception of a number of folks that on this thread and the two you mentioned Drew was primarily pursuing personal agendas directed against specific individuals, more than any "humanitarian" reasons. That, and a consistent pattern (seen there and again here) of declaring that his personal morality is normative is what gets him the responses he gets.
 
Let me clarify a few things here.

1) This thread was started for the purposes of discussion...period! Nobody was attacked until Mimi arrived. The only reason Lindy's name was mentioned was because she was the one who mentioned polyamory in another thread. Not wanting to hijack that other thread, I needed to transfer the discussion to this new thread. If you look at the first post of this thread, you'll see I not only quoted Lindy, but myself, and Icycle. I defy anybody to tell me where in this thread I've said polyamory is wrong, or that the people who practice it are in any way morally inferior. I said it was "adultery" for those who are married to practice it. If adultery is defined simply as a married person having sex with somebody other than his/her spouse than I don't see how anybody could not agree it is adultery. I never said adultery was bad. I never said anybody who commits adultery is bad. If adultery is concensual as in the case of Redmage and Lindy, and any legalities are squared away in this regard, who honestly cares about their sex life? I sure don't. Again, the only reason this thread was started was to discuss whether or not polyamory wasn't just a feel-good euphemism for adultery. Our politically correct society employs countless euphemisms. He's not short, he's "vertically challenged." She's not crippled, she's "locomotionally challenged." It's not adultery, it's "polyamory." Whether you agree with this or not is supposed to have been the topic of discussion, not who's standing on the higher moral ground.

2) Mimi had no grounds whatsoever to accuse me of moral superiority, self-righteousness, or piety. I was wrong to let myself get sucked into that ridiculous bitchfest, and I apologize. The only reason I responded at all is because she's a mod and she said my opinions were unwelcome. Next time I'll know better.

3) We've got to get over this notion that any discussion of a sexual practice ought to be prohibited. We talk about sexual tickling, feet fetishes, straight sex, gay sex, just about everything under the sun. Why should the subject of polyamory be taboo?
 
Scarlett Moon said:
But I still don't see what all the fuss is about with THIS thread. He's just asking a question, not pointing fingers yet as Johnny pointed out, he's once again being attacked by the very same people. Coincidence? I guess anything's possible.
Yes, he is pointing fingers. By asking the question "Is polyamory just a feel-good euphemism for adultery?" he is attempting to frame the debate in a worldview that polyamory is immoral as are the people who practice it. The people who do not believe it is immoral are justifiably upset by the characterisation.

Imagine if someone started a thread titled "Is spanking children as punishment just a thinly vieled example of child abuse?". That would probably provoke a strong response against the thread starter by people who believe spanking is a proper part of child rearing.
 
Oh for the luva...

Let me clarify a few things here.

I do believe that this thread was at least partly started for the purpose of discussion. The problem is that it was insulting from the very beginning. Drew, I've met you and I know you have some sense. You knew good and well that several TMF members are polyamorous. And you knew that insinuating that poly may be a 'euphemism for adultery' (what??) would annoy us. Please, give me the courtesy of not denying that. You know better. You live on this planet, in theory anyway, and you know that adultery is considered a highly negative thing whether you actually said it on this thread or not. And those of us who are proudly, openly and honestly poly do *not* take kindly to being unjustly compared with adulterers. It's a vastly different situation and you're fully aware of such. We even listed the dictionary definitions for you to illustrate the difference and still you continue. That little "fucking around" line? Oh come now. Why not just start poking people with a pointy stick? It would be more direct, your attempts at subtlety are anything but.

Mimi was right to tell you exactly how weary she and others are of you cloaking judgement in supposedly innocent questions 'for the sake of discussion'. If you don't wish to be accused of such, you might want to stop using such friendly phrases as 'fucking around' when referring to what we do with full consent of our spouses. You may wish to quit with comments about how we shouldn't marry if we don't wish to commit. Yes, you have a right to your opinion. But that's insulting and judgemental. Stop. Please. Enough. Your opinions are most definitely unwelcome if they're hurtful and based on false assumptions. And since the poly folk here are in long term happy marriages and are devoted to making our spouses happy, to indicate a lack of commitment is very, very false.

To be blunt, if you don't want people to jump your sh*t you need to stop being a pest. Or, by all means continue, but try not to whine about how you're treated in response-it's unbecoming in an instigator :upsidedow.

Bella

drew70 said:
Let me clarify a few things here.

1) This thread was started for the purposes of discussion...period! Nobody was attacked until Mimi arrived. The only reason Lindy's name was mentioned was because she was the one who mentioned polyamory in another thread. Not wanting to hijack that other thread, I needed to transfer the discussion to this new thread. If you look at the first post of this thread, you'll see I not only quoted Lindy, but myself, and Icycle. I defy anybody to tell me where in this thread I've said polyamory is wrong, or that the people who practice it are in any way morally inferior. I said it was "adultery" for those who are married to practice it. If adultery is defined simply as a married person having sex with somebody other than his/her spouse than I don't see how anybody could not agree it is adultery. I never said adultery was bad. I never said anybody who commits adultery is bad. If adultery is concensual as in the case of Redmage and Lindy, and any legalities are squared away in this regard, who honestly cares about their sex life? I sure don't. Again, the only reason this thread was started was to discuss whether or not polyamory wasn't just a feel-good euphemism for adultery. Our politically correct society employs countless euphemisms. He's not short, he's "vertically challenged." She's not crippled, she's "locomotionally challenged." It's not adultery, it's "polyamory." Whether you agree with this or not is supposed to have been the topic of discussion, not who's standing on the higher moral ground.

2) Mimi had no grounds whatsoever to accuse me of moral superiority, self-righteousness, or piety. I was wrong to let myself get sucked into that ridiculous bitchfest, and I apologize. The only reason I responded at all is because she's a mod and she said my opinions were unwelcome. Next time I'll know better.

3) We've got to get over this notion that any discussion of a sexual practice ought to be prohibited. We talk about sexual tickling, feet fetishes, straight sex, gay sex, just about everything under the sun. Why should the subject of polyamory be taboo?
 
Scarlett Moon said:
This is one really interesting thread. I think that Bagelfather, Lindy and Redmage have made a great case for polyamory, a word I confess I'd never heard of before reading this thread. It sounds like it's a type of relationship that could either really work well or fail miserably.

What I don't get is why Drew was attacked so viciously for starting this thread? I don't really see anything that tells me he thinks he's better or morally superior. Just because he has questions about a lifestyle doesn't make him Jerry Falwell.

Thank you. I am not trying to make a case for polyamoury, I am only trying to make a case for those who wish to practice it are not bad people or adulterers. Just to clarify.

Secondly I think the thread and discussion in general is not a bad one. I have no problem with the fact that Drew wishes to address this question. I feel that many people are upset at Drew in the manner in which he broached it. Some people may take it as an antagonistic approach. If you consider the people he quoted are ones he has had written spars/flames with in other posts (where it has become ugly in the past), then his quoting those people, and in the way he quotes them, come across to some in an inflamatory fashion. There are people who may view this post not as an open discussion but a venue in which to attack the people he is quoting on a personal level while making it look like an open discussion. Personally I try to believe in the good in people and feel that he is only trying to have an open discussion and was not intending to attack anyone on a personal level.

How would I do it better, I am not here to make that call. Just to address your concerns.
 
drew70 said:
Let me clarify a few things here.

1) This thread was started for the purposes of discussion...period! Nobody was attacked until Mimi arrived.

Upon reading back this seems to be untrue. You have made a degrading comment in attacking Lindy right off the bat at the start of your post. Instead of going into a discussion from scratch saying "people keep talking about polyamory, is it adultry, etc. etc." you decided to use quotes which were demeaning and insulting.

Your Words in response to Lindy explaining what polyamory was:
Originally Posted by drew70
Oh, cool! Kind of like adultry with built in amnesty!

So right at the beginning of your statement you have made a judgment stating that polyamory is adultry. Do you feel that adultry is moral? Do you think adultry is okay. If you want us to believe:

drew70 said:
I defy anybody to tell me where in this thread I've said polyamory is wrong, or that the people who practice it are in any way morally inferior. I said it was "adultery" for those who are married to practice it. If adultery is defined simply as a married person having sex with somebody other than his/her spouse than I don't see how anybody could not agree it is adultery. I never said adultery was bad. I never said anybody who commits adultery is bad.

You never said it was bad directly but the context in which you address this issue implies it is bad, and that you are making a moral statement that it is indeed bad. Your comments are not ambiguous, they are right to the point that adultry is bad, polyamory is adultry, therefore polyamory is bad.

By equal point I ask you to point out where you made a statement at any time saying you had a neutral position, or that adultry was good. An absence of a statement is a statement in and of itself.

You did not have to quote ANYONE to start this thread, the fact that you did and the fact that you are denying anything seems like passive aggressive behavior to me.

drew70 said:
My opinion is that if you're single, there is little to no impediments that would keep one from such a lifestyle. For a married person, you've entered into a commitment and if you "fuck around" so to speak, it's adultery, whether or not your spouse approves.

The term "fuck around' is not a neutral term, it is a derogatory term, it is a demeaning term. And you connect adultry with the term fuck around, and in previous context connect it to polyamory.

You state that polyamory is like adultry but with built in amnesty. Using the term amnesty you imply something wrong, amnesty is given to people who have done something wrong, not people who have done something right.

If you feel it is wrong, that is one thing. But to start a fight and then hide behind mixed messages saying "I never said that," is classic passive aggressive behavior. You are acting like nothing more than a moral bully. If you have a position at least be willing to stick to it and not hide behind your words and metaphors afraid to face what you are saying.

drew70 said:
3) We've got to get over this notion that any discussion of a sexual practice ought to be prohibited. We talk about sexual tickling, feet fetishes, straight sex, gay sex, just about everything under the sun. Why should the subject of polyamory be taboo?

There is nothing wrong with an intelligent discussion of these topics. There is a problem using them as a smoke screen for personal attacks.

I wish I had read on before my reply before this one.
 
Bagelfather said:
Upon reading back this seems to be untrue. You have made a degrading comment in attacking Lindy right off the bat at the start of your post. Instead of going into a discussion from scratch saying "people keep talking about polyamory, is it adultry, etc. etc." you decided to use quotes which were demeaning and insulting.
I quoted Lindy's comments word for word. Exactly how is that in any way demeaning? Is there some hidden TMF rule that prohibits us from quoting people in another thread? Instead of explaining about the initial conversation, I just copied the conversation itself to the new thread. What could be simpler?

Bagelfather said:
Your Words in response to Lindy explaining what polyamory was:

Originally Posted by drew70
Oh, cool! Kind of like adultry with built in amnesty!

So right at the beginning of your statement you have made a judgment stating that polyamory is adultry.
Yes, I did. I stand by that judgment, and I've explained why at least twice. But you're reading that as an attack on Lindy when in reality all it is an issue of semantics, as in does polyamory = adultry? At no time is it implied, suggested, or even questioned that Lindy = bad person. You are reading into the post something that is simply not there. If anything, I gave Lindy an approval with the phrase "Oh cool!"

Bagelfather said:
Do you feel that adultry is moral? Do you think adultry is okay.
You're asking me this now, but you're accusing me as if I've already answered those questions from the outset of this thread which of course shows the very inconsistancy of your allegations. How I personally feel about adultry isn't the issue here, and never was. Only whether or not polyamory constituted adultry.

Bagelfather said:
You never said it was bad directly but the context in which you address this issue implies it is bad, and that you are making a moral statement that it is indeed bad. Your comments are not ambiguous, they are right to the point that adultry is bad, polyamory is adultry, therefore polyamory is bad.
You keep saying I'm making moral statements, but you can't seem to quote any. You're erroneously deriving conclusions that aren't supported by the body of evidence. I meant what I said and nothing more. Anything else you are taking from that is from your own making, not mine.

Bagelfather said:
By equal point I ask you to point out where you made a statement at any time saying you had a neutral position, or that adultry was good. An absence of a statement is a statement in and of itself.
Don't be ridiculous. If I don't make a statement, that's just what it is...no statement. If I don't say it's good, and I don't say it's bad, you're saying that means I'm saying it's bad. This is what I'm talking about when I say that you are putting words in my mouth, reading things into my statements that are clearly fabrications.

Bagelfather said:
You did not have to quote ANYONE to start this thread, the fact that you did and the fact that you are denying anything seems like passive aggressive behavior to me.
It's true that I didn't HAVE to quote anybody to start this thread, but having done so does not in any way warrant an attack. I have no idea what you mean by the rest of that sentence. You lost me entirely.

Bagelfather said:
The term "fuck around' is not a neutral term, it is a derogatory term, it is a demeaning term. And you connect adultry with the term fuck around, and in previous context connect it to polyamory.
While I agree it's profane, you can't derive malicious intent simply from a choice of slang. I said "fuck around" simply to add a little spice and color to the conversation. I do this all the time. Somebody might ask me over the phone, "Hey Drew, what're you doing right now?" Often my answer will be, "Nothing. Just fucking around." It's a phrase that most certainly can be used neutrally, and as the one having used it, I can assure you it was.

Bagelfather said:
You state that polyamory is like adultry but with built in amnesty. Using the term amnesty you imply something wrong, amnesty is given to people who have done something wrong, not people who have done something right.
In the context I was using the word amnesty, all I meant by it was the absense of any consequences. I said it was LIKE adultry with built-in amnesty, not that it WAS adultry with built-in amnesty. It was more of a joke than anything else, in case you haven't figured that out.

Bagelfather said:
If you feel it is wrong, that is one thing. But to start a fight and then hide behind mixed messages saying "I never said that," is classic passive aggressive behavior.
I never started any fight. You can thank Mimi for that. The only reason I'm clarifying my statements is because you and some others seem insistent upon interpreting them in a way radically different from how they were originally intended.

Bagelfather said:
You are acting like nothing more than a moral bully. If you have a position at least be willing to stick to it and not hide behind your words and metaphors afraid to face what you are saying.
Look who's talking. You are making unfounded allegations about the intent of my thread, in the thread itself. You are putting words into my mouth I didn't say, and you are making false accusations in an attempt to malign my character. You tell me who's doing the bullying here. All I've done since this thread started was fend off attacks. Can't you just agree or disagree and have done with it?

Bagelfather said:
There is nothing wrong with an intelligent discussion of these topics. There is a problem using them as a smoke screen for personal attacks.
Practice what you preach, brother.

Bagelfather said:
I wish I had read on before my reply before this one.
I can certainly see why you would wish that. The entire thrust of your current argument is based on the contention that the opening post of this thread was a clear attack on Lindy. Of course if that were true, you probably wouldn't have responded with "The initial question by Drew is a fair question at the core level." That is how you initially responded to me, isn't it? Now suddenly my "fair question" has morphed into "personal attacks" by a "moral bully." It's clear you are just jumping on the lynchmob bandwagon, Baglefather. Safety in numbers? 😀
 
Hey friends!

Thank you all for your support, and for wanting to defend me from hurtful personal attacks. You know I love you all. :grouphug:

Look, I don't think any of us need convincing that that this entire argument was framed from the beginning to make it sound like we poly folks are doing something morally wrong. Anyone who speaks English beyond the proficiency of a third-year foreign language student knows that words like "adultery" and "fuck-around" are not value-free in our language, whatever a dictionary or a lawyer might say. The moral judgments are obvious in the language of the thread title, and are sprinkled liberally throughout Drew's posts, all his protestations aside. And I sincerely doubt that Drew is dumb enough to think that isn't so - he's a good enough rhetoritician to know exactly what he's doing.

So let's just leave it alone, shall we? Point out to Drew how his postings constitute moral judgments and personal attacks, and he'll just pick apart your post in his usual oblivious, sidestepping legalese. He's not fooling anyone, least of all himself. We don't need to play his game - we'd just be fanning the flames, so to speak. 😛

Those of us on this thread who are in loving poly relationships have already done a great job explaining why and how they work for us. Those of you who aren't poly yourselves, but are tolerant of others loving as they choose, have also spoken and listened admirably. And we are under no obligation to care or cater to the opinions of anyone else.

All right? Now let's go have a big orgy!!! :woot:

(BTW, that last part was a joke, people! Polyamory does not equal orgies.) 😛
 
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Aw, Drew, ya know better, man.

Polyamory. Loving many. Taken to a sexual context, a group of people involved in something sexual. Like a gathering? Dude, you just insulted every one of us that hosts gatherings. Me, Max, Jan... Not kind, man.

Thought we had a mutual respect. Deeply disappointed.

Adultery is playing out of your DECLARED relationship. If you AND your partner(s) DECLARE you're open to multiple people, that's polyamory.

IF you declare to ONE person you're ONLY sexually involved with them AND you then involve sexually with another person, THAT'S adultery.

This is a case of fanning flames, man. Poly kids are poly. You aren't. You aren't gay, either, last I recall. There are ALL kinds of sexual proclivities, and there are socio-sexual proclivities separate from 'em. Messin' with people who are into their own gender, or into multiple simultaneous partners is as bright as supporting blockheads who say tickling isn't sexual. For US it is. For THEM, polyamory's viable, declared, negotiated.

Yer in the wrong place to discuss what's fair loving versus adultery/cheating/harmful to partners. Many here are poly. Met many of 'em. Some of 'em have been MARRIED and poly longer than my last TWO significant relationships.

If ya wanna discuss, PM me. This thread came to my attention 'cause I was defending you. Arguing that you were beyond this AMT style piss-up. That you weren't being divisive for the sake of arguing. I appreciate good debate, but you don't agree with points well made. It's their side, and they're entitled to it.

If you don't like it, don't practice polyamory, and know that pissing about with it here shows prejudicial behavior, same as callin' a gay member by some derogation for his interest in men.

We get enough of that shit as ticklephiles as it is. Don't add, please.

I know ya like to argue. Pick something that don't insult so many people, and doesn't argue that picking on sexual interest, ESPECIALLY socio-sexual focus, is good and fair, here. It's neither, brer.
 
He Liiiives!!! :bowing: Dude, I thought you disappeared off the face of the earth?!? Somebody told me you moved to Alaska. Whatever the case, you are a sight for sore eyes, buddy! But Jesus, is this what it takes to hear a few words from you? A perceived insult? I'm hurt, man. I really am. Do you really think that loving many is new and/or abhorant to me? I'm a child of the sixties, brother. I grew up with the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, and Blue Cheer. I used to pay $15 for an ounce of Mexican, $20 if it was a "four-finger" ounce, and a whopping $35 for an ounce of Columbian. I was a ringleader in our high school protest over a girl who was suspended for walking through the school hallway topless. The entire school walked out because of us. 😀

So yeah, I'm the last guy in the world to be judging people's sex lives, even assuming I cared about them. I love a good argument, but if you and Max and Jan are insulted by this thread, then let me sincerely apologize for starting it, as I have the utmost respect for you four. You guys are my heroes, and no argument is worth jeopardizing that respect.

I apologize to anybody and everybody who was insulted by this thread! From now on, consider me jolly when it comes to poly! 😀 :woot:
 
Naw, man. I know you aren't hatin'. That don't help, here. There's but a handful of us from USENET days, y'know? Most these folks don't know you like stirrin' up thinkin'. It *reads* like you're confrontin' folks, takin' sides.

That don't help anyone, you included. Thank you muchly for makin' nice wit' the crew here, man. They don't know how you think. Heck, I don't always, either, but I know you'll take confrontation. Delicate like me, you are. 😉

Yeah, I don't get to these threads much anymore. Busy these days. I did move north, and I've a kid keepin' my attention much of the time. Diggin' papa-dom, y'know? That I gotta marry Kraftie makes it easy to lull on bein' online.

Everybody cool now? Excellent...
 
Hmmmmm…

People’s viewpoints here are going to start from whatever system of morality they embraced. Given that Americans are the main participants in this thread and that America is the world’s single most huge and diverse melting pot of religions, ideologies and philosophies it’s not surprising that viewpoints are varied.

Here is mine and try not to twirl fingers or wonder if I’ve been smoking some illegal herbs when I attempt to explain why I’ve arrived at my conclusions…

Although I despise religions in general, I do have a deal of sympathy for and belief in Wicca. The cornerstone of morality in Wicca is “and as it harm none, so mote it be”. If all parties are adult, fully understanding of all implications and consensual, then I don’t think there is such a thing as an immoral sexual practice. A lot of emotions such as jealousy, anger, possessiveness and guilt are the ones through which humanity has long been held in check and nothing provokes these more than sexual relationships.

Polygamy/polyamoury can express both extreme negative and the ultimate positive. Someone who is in a relationship with someone and is devoid of all the foresaid negative emotions can actually find that it enhances the relationship. One of my favourite examples when I think of this sort of thing is from the film Love Actually with the characters played by Alan Rickman and Emma Thompson. Rickman is a middle-aged geezer who has a certain something missing from his self-esteem. He falls for the charms of a sexy young office worker at his company who obviously finds something sexy about an older man. His wife finds out before they actually do have a shag and has a near emotional breakdown. She feels rejected, hurt and useless. Why? Mostly because since she was born she’s been conditioned to believe that her partner having sexual feelings for anyone but her is “wrong”, if not “sinful”. If he feels that way she must not be providing something he needs or wants. So he may be, but so what? No-one possesses everything. Most possess a long fucking way from everything! Rickman’s character could conceivably have gained a great deal from that extra-marital relationship without demeaning or lessening his feeling for Thompson’s at all. Indeed, what he gained could have had a beneficial effect on his marriage. The reason this didn’t take place is because of those negative emotions, which are nothing more than software programs fed into someone through social conditioning of whatever source. What would have happened if they hadn’t been? What would have happened if Thompson’s character or a real life counterpart had been happy for Rickman’s to have sexual relations with the office goil? One thing that wouldn’t have happened is that the sky wouldn’t have fallen. Right and wrong, good and bad, comforting or traumatising are all frames of mind dependent on certain programs of social “software” for what response elicits them. If Thompson’s character had had a different upbringing that resulted in her not regarding her partner as being good only if he was monogamous, nothing negative would have resulted and Rickman’s subsequent rise in self-esteem would have brought positive things to the matrimonial table.

Now the negative…

Many people confuse the principal of sexual freedom and polygamy with pointless promiscuity. I’ll be clear about this: pointless promiscuity is uncontrolled, ultimately fruitless (although enjoyable for a while it brings no real benefits – possibly it is necessary to go through this phase to learn though?) and can do real harm, both physical and emotional. It is done mostly because the person doing it lacks knowledge of themselves and others. They do it because making love has become all about the two second squirt/splurge and not about the other nineteen twentieths that really make it up. Hell, who hasn’t gone through this phase whose name isn’t Ezra, Ezekiel or Jedadiah? Some of us still are. There are also the cases of people who have affairs outside of marriage through deceit. That isn’t the same as polyamoury. That’s just adultery. Granted some people might consider any sexual relations outside of marriage to be adulterous, but this is adultery without proper reason. No relationship can last and be good without trust, acceptance and truth between the partners. If it’s going to happen then it needs to be with the knowledge and consent of both and both should have equal right to behave that way.

These two extremes are not “balance”. I think there is middle ground and that can include polyamoury, depending on the persons involved. Two people may meet and become each others’ perfectly complimentary partner for life. Good for them, if that’s what enriches their lives the most. But just as often, in my opinion probably much more often, there are people who would benefit hugely from the chance to have sexual relations outside of their relationship or marriage if they could do it without the needless baggage of negative emotions. Having physical sex with someone else doesn’t mean your partner loves you any less or thinks badly of you. It’s more likely to be a deficiency of theirs. If you think about it, even going to a marriage guidance counsellor is mental adultery because you’re seeking enrichment from outside of your partnership to help the two of you.

And that’s the way it was. 😀
 
Has Anybody Ever Thought About This?

I've avoided the dating scene completely (thank to watching WAY too many movies and standup specials) and I've noticed that being an outside observer gives you an interesting perspective. Have any of you noticed the following?

Society likes to think that its values are the standard by which all others follow. And if people are exposed to the right endorsements, they'll fall in line despite what natural/unnatural instincts they might individually have. If there's a subculture or underground avenue, society tries to cut it off with propaganda or liegislation. This is a practice older than spoken language: if you remove all unsanctioned outlets, the people will have no direction to go but yours. Monarchs used to do this with literature, and governments with pornography, and lately, corporations with accuracy. Everybody found out a long time ago that you can use ignorance or confusion to manipulate people to doing anything you want.

For this reason, society restricts the dating pool. Sure, you can find places like Speed Dating for Conservative Jewish Realtors, but aside from these little niche groups, everybody has to frequent the same places for dates: monogamists, polyamorists, scumbags, goldiggers and serial daters all have to drink at the same pond, and that makes it near IMPOSSIBLE to determine who's right for you. Quality control is a massive undertaking, and society at large would rather see to it that people force themselves into dealing with relationships rather than making it possible to evaluate the quality of each candidate. This is one of the reasons our education system sucks...it's cheaper to leave it alone than renovate it.

I believe humans are monogamous because the estrus cycle of the human female is different than that of promiscuous species. So it would make sense that people favor monogamy over all other things, but there's a problem: quality control. When people talk about "The One" they probably talk about the 1 in 138,000 who are compatible enough with you to be completely satisfactory. If you came face to face with those odds, most people would kill themselves out of hoplessness, and they settle for the 1 in 52 who are "okay." And a big reason for this is politics.

There is so much political maneuvering in dating I am amazed that anybody can find anybody at all. If you've been married 60 years, there's no more pretense or attempts at subterfuge; but when you first met, you always had your game face on, and the relationship's rocky periods came from the conflict between nicety and reality. And many of these things are enough to break an otherwise healthy relationship in half. A side-effect of this social-conformity thing is that it affects people's sense of want, and many times people go through life looking for something they know not what. How many homosexuals go through life hating themselves because society says they should?

Take tickling for instance. How many people here have had rocky relationships because tickling wasn't on the other person's agenda? How many people got divorced because of it? How many people advertise "Selling All My Videos!" sales because the fiancee says "no way"? It's one thing if you grow out of an interest because it loses its flavor, but it's another thing when someone says you can't have it. After a while, those cravings turn into dependencies and then into necessities (like addiction), and most people can only take so much before they're driven to find it elsewhere.

If there's only 1 or 2 things missing from your life, you aren't going to upend the stability of what you have just for those things: instead, you'll get them on the sly and go back and as long as no one's the wiser, nothing will change. And the biggest reason why these issues never get discussed is because politics makes everyone defensive. if you tell your SO that you're unfulfilled, 99% of them interpret it as an attack, they get defensive, and then the relationship is poisoned by resentment and vitriol. All because the politics say that you can't talk about unpleasant things.

Monogamy is about a hell of a lot more than just resisting temptation; when you find the right person, those temptations lose their appeal. Why? because they can't offer anything that you don't already have. AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES LOVE WORK: TOTAL MUTUAL FULFILLMENT. Do you know how fucking HARD it is to get that right? The right chemistry between 2 people to make everything else unimportant is so specific it makes Vodka purification look like dirt sifting. And most people are totally unaware of it; all they have to go on is the dating procedures they've been taught in life.

THAT SAID...there are people who practice polyamorous relationships because for some reason still unknown THEY WORK. I've known swingers and they will tell you that the sex is fun, but it's not the center of the relationship. There's so many other things of such deeper meaning than sex that it can actually be shared with other people at no substantial loss to the marriage. And maybe that's what makes sex so integral to people's idea of monogamy: it's tangible and visible. The meat of a relationship is abstract and intangible, and takes more effort to process and understand.

Finally, I believe that recreational sex can work but only if done responsibly. Any recreational sport always has safety features, spotters, equipment, and failsafes built into it. Casual sex failed in the 70s because it was reckless and careless, and nobody took precautions. We know better now, and if we weren't so damned lazy and selfish, we could revisit it with better results. As far as the STD arguments go, kis is quite right about her first-hand experience with the AIDS cases...but keep in mind that all precautions, including hygeine and sterility only inhibit the proliferation of disease, but nothing's 100%. Just like the antibiotic-resistant bacteria strains, diseases always find a way around our defenses, and the best we can do is hope to stave them off as far as we can for as long as we can.
 
Wow Amnesiac, bump from the past! 😛

How do you figure that "society restricts the dating pool?" As far as I can tell, it's restricted to anyone who's single and/or looking. Aren't you complaining that that's exactly the problem, that everyone who's looking for dates is in the same pool? Actually, I wouldn't even agree with that - you never meet all the eligible people in your area. You tend to meet people with whom you share a common interest. If you're polyamorous, then you're likely to meet friends of friends who are poly, too. If you're not, then your odds of just running into one in a bar are slim to none.

Amnesiac said:
Quality control is a massive undertaking, and society at large would rather see to it that people force themselves into dealing with relationships rather than making it possible to evaluate the quality of each candidate. This is one of the reasons our education system sucks...it's cheaper to leave it alone than renovate it.
What do you suggest?

Amnesiac said:
I believe humans are monogamous because the estrus cycle of the human female is different than that of promiscuous species.
How so? You mean because human estrus isn't directly observable, increasing paternity uncertainty? I suppose, but I think the more plausible biological explanation is paternal investment. Humans mature very slowly, and the male has child-rearing responsibilities, so monogamy tends to be preferred.

However, I think the more relevant point is that, as intelligent human beings, we have the ability to divorce our behavior from what might have been advantageous to our evolutionary ancestors. Murdering our stepchildren might be "good for our genes" (preparing the mate to bear our children sooner), but since it's bad for us, relationship and legality-wise, we don't do it. Similarly, sexual jealousy might have been advantagous to our evolutionary ancestors for increasing paternity certainty, but in the modern age of birth control, trust, and verbal communication, jealousy doesn't have to control our behavior now.

Amnesiac said:
So it would make sense that people favor monogamy over all other things, but there's a problem: quality control. When people talk about "The One" they probably talk about the 1 in 138,000 who are compatible enough with you to be completely satisfactory. If you came face to face with those odds, most people would kill themselves out of hoplessness, and they settle for the 1 in 52 who are "okay." And a big reason for this is politics.
I don't understand the "politics" part, but the rest of it does make sense to me. The spin is awfully cynical though, so I'll try to put it another way. It takes a lot of pressure off your primary relationship if that person doesn't have to be everything to you. Say you meet a person who is perfect for you in every way except one, like tickling. It takes a lot of pressure off that person if you can fulfill that need with someone else. You can still love each other, build a life, and have babies together. And assuming you're being open and honest with each other, I don't see any problem.

Amnesiac said:
If there's only 1 or 2 things missing from your life, you aren't going to upend the stability of what you have just for those things: instead, you'll get them on the sly and go back and as long as no one's the wiser, nothing will change. And the biggest reason why these issues never get discussed is because politics makes everyone defensive. if you tell your SO that you're unfulfilled, 99% of them interpret it as an attack, they get defensive, and then the relationship is poisoned by resentment and vitriol. All because the politics say that you can't talk about unpleasant things.
And that's really too bad. It shouldn't have to be this way.

Somehow, the morally-outraged keep trying to claim that polyamorous relationships are broken in some way, because we can talk about our needs openly, and because we don't hate each other for sharing intimacy with more than one person. If you ask me, it's the relationships where people can't communicate honestly about what they need that have some growing to do.

Amnesiac said:
Monogamy is about a hell of a lot more than just resisting temptation; when you find the right person, those temptations lose their appeal. Why? because they can't offer anything that you don't already have. AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES LOVE WORK: TOTAL MUTUAL FULFILLMENT.
I hear that idea floating around a lot, but I think it's worth looking at more closely. It seems to me that no matter how great your life is at home, you'd still be able find "extra" enjoyment outside of it. No matter how great sex is with your SO, sex would still be great, and novel, with someone else, provided you could experience it without negative emotional baggage or relationship conseqences.

Amnesiac said:
THAT SAID...there are people who practice polyamorous relationships because for some reason still unknown THEY WORK. I've known swingers and they will tell you that the sex is fun, but it's not the center of the relationship. There's so many other things of such deeper meaning than sex that it can actually be shared with other people at no substantial loss to the marriage.
So much for "some reason still unknown." 😉 I think you hit it just right.

Amnesiac said:
Finally, I believe that recreational sex can work but only if done responsibly.
I think there's a common misperception that polyamory necessarily equals an increased risk of STDs. First off, I'll point out that sexually rewarding activities don't have to involve the exchange of bodily fluids. Really, I shouldn't have to point this out to a forum of ticklers. Second, in my experience, poly folks are extremely knowledgable and cautious about their safety, even more so than most monogamous "serial daters" I've known. I guess it goes with the fact that polyamorous people are knowledgable and open about sex in general, so they have an easier time being upfront about precautions when necessary.
 
Uh...yeah

Mr. Bella read some of this over my shoulder just now.
We looked at each other, first thing in the morning, before our coffee: rumpled, hair askew, mismatched pajamas and breath that could end a relationship all by itself...and we both said the same thing:

TOTAL MUTUAL FULFILLMENT!!!!!!

Everybody should laugh this hard in the morning. That, my friends, is marriage, however you do it. :lovestory :blaugh:

Bella
 
Oh sweet juicy intellectualicious observer...

Ah, Lindy. A significant percentage of what you said is accurate; the remainder is due entirely to faults in my argments that I didn't see until you pointed them out. TOUCHE! I'll clarify now.

How do you figure that "society restricts the dating pool?"

2 methods: legislative and prejudicial. The former is being seen today as various law enforcement agencies are shutting down swinger clubs and on-site premises due to vaguely defined obscenity laws interpreted by moralists who have the money to influence political figures. The 2nd is by instilling within the people the OBJECTION to alternative interests. When you go to a dating scene, you have to put on your game face. Part of that is maintaining the PRETENSE OF STARTING A RELATIONSHIP. If you tip your hat to what you want, it makes the encounter seem cheap and sterile, and the other person tends to feel uneasy, objectified, or even threatened.

Example: say you're a single male in search of a fuck buddy. Nothing special or outlandish, just a regular source of sex that with someone you might actually like as a friend. If you state your intention within the first few minutes of meeting someone, you'll get slapped, and you're lucky if that's all you get. Instead, you have to maintain the illusion that you MIGHT want something else, and wait until the right moment to broach the more...lascivious nature of your interest. Now, if dating were segregated to monogamous bars, poly bars, niche bars, and done so openly instead of relying on the underground circuit (where exploitative criminal elements tend to feed) to advertise, the conflict over relatonship intentions might shrink by as much as 50%.

What do you suggest?

Nothing definitive yet because I haven't done anywhere near the research necessary to begin. But the basic premises are:

1. Reduce cultural imperatives on dating. You can see it in the grass-roots traditionalist movement where a very mechanical and business-like approach to marriage is taking place: get marriage rates back up, and restore the family. What this is basically saying is "get hitched and outbreed the immigrants before they outnumber us and inherit the land!" Nobody in these groups talks about the PEOPLE in the relationship or even the quality thereof, only numbers. And that effects people's idea of what they should do when meeting someone romantically...you follow conditioning instead of instincts.

2. Teach people conflict resolution. People aren't used to thinking in emotional matters and that's a problem. Emotionally vulnerable people are easy to manipulate, which is why cultures endorse them, but it prevents people from accepting honesty, and so people spend most of their time avoiding it. You ever seen a couple get into a fight over the dumbest shit you ever heard, and blame each other for everything EXCEPT what's really bothering them? People mistake honesty for assault or rejection, when in reality, most of the time its just an unpleasant truth. We're smart animals...we should be able to figure solutions out rather than jumping to conclusions and lashing out.

3. Expand social horizons. It's one thing for people to experiment with their sexuality...it's another thing entirely to say "it's alright to do that." A lot of people DO want sex and sex only...but they CAN'T SAY IT. Create avenues where various peoples can meet, and wider standards of what you can say and maybe then searching won't be so hard.

Everything else involves other stuff like health care reform and economic adjustments. But to divide territories up for socializing is expensive and UN-PC, so this is hard.

Similarly, sexual jealousy might have been advantagous to our evolutionary ancestors...but in the modern age of birth control, trust, and verbal communication, jealousy doesn't have to control our behavior now.

People don't like modernity; modernity looks at a sacred cow and says "it's just a cow." Yes, a lot of these tools are obsolete, but they're tied to cultural traditions, and culture is what people use to define themselves and measure their worth. Once you start renovating familiar institutions, institutions that people use to determine right & wrong/good & bad/acceptable & un-, they start freaking out because they don't know what to think...people kill for beliefs, and belief in their identity is probably the most precious thing to them. Traditions and their belief systems also influence our economies...and changing the flow of money, even if justly done, can upend people's lives enough to create armed resistance.

Besides, there's still some biology involved in jealousy; you ever get jealous about someone and no amount of logic or argument could change your emotional responses? I'm not a jealous person at all and even THAT's happened to me. It might be similar to the feeling a dog gets when a hand reaches for his bowl; something instinctual says "(s)he's gonna take your stuff."

Say you meet a person who is perfect for you in every way except one, like tickling. It takes a lot of pressure off that person if you can fulfill that need with someone else.

You know that song "I Just Wanna Be Your Everything"? Well, that's the way everybody feels in a relationship, and for different reasons. Males feel diminished if they can't provide everything...some preternatural feeling that you're open to being overtaken by another competitor, or that you are lacking, and therefore, lesser than and disposable. I don't know what the deal is with females, but they seem to feel attacked or instantly devalued if they are not "THE SOURCE OF HAPPINESS" in your life. I speculate it might be a kind of insecurity conditioned within them to gain acceptance by pleasing others, but I don't know because I'm only a male. Another thing is that women tend to interrelate; if the male finds delight in company with another female of "undesireable" traits, most women feel that they've been lied to and perceived as an "undesireable" themselves because if their man likes "that", then they must be a "that" too. Men get cravings a lotta times, and those are about as detached as you can get from anything...women seem to not have figured this out yet.

It seems to me that no matter how great your life is at home, you'd still be able find "extra" enjoyment outside of it.

The only reason I contest this is because I think there may be other possibilities. Keep in mind I said "possibilities" not "probabilities". You ever see 2 people "in total wuv" and think its cute...and then see them years later and they're still "In total wuv" and you say "Damn, how'd that happen?" Maybe it's something restricted to probability that we don't have the math to draw the equations to, but it does seem to happen in rare instances. Now can EVERYBODY do this under the right conditions? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not ready to close the book on this because it's unsolved. But the "In total Wuv" high tends to wear off when people become familiar, but in the soulmmate couples, the "In total Wuv" high seems to come BECAUSE of familiarity. CAN people do what you mentioned and work? Oh hell yes, but not everyone, and it requires far more introspection, open-mindedness and security than people have, and more than society is willing to give.

sexually rewarding activities don't have to involve the exchange of bodily fluids.

Yeah but...it's REALLY fun when they do.

Somehow, the morally-outraged keep trying to claim that polyamorous relationships are broken in some way, because we can talk about our needs openly, and because we don't hate each other for sharing intimacy with more than one person. If you ask me, it's the relationships where people can't communicate honestly about what they need that have some growing to do.

Check out http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?t=79105&page=8&pp=15 as it seems to have more relation to this than belongs here.
 
It's funny. Most people that are against other couples expressing feelings is usually the ones that can't handle thier own relationship outside of insecurity or selfishness.
 
Ticklerguy4u said:
It's funny. Most people that are against other couples expressing feelings is usually the ones that can't handle thier own relationship outside of insecurity or selfishness.
Interesting observation. Do you see this happening in this thread?
 
drew70 said:
Interesting observation. Do you see this happening in this thread?

well the fact is that most of us get into a relationship because of our desire to not be lonely. Which is why jealousy comes into play. Its a selfish motive of you are mine and no one elses. Some can handle the fact of dealing with being with someone that you want to make happy rather than they making you happy.

I say eighty percent of people get into a relationship because of circumstance, loneliness, geography, or lust. Very few people get into a relationship because they love the other person to the point of wanting them to be happy even when it comes to sacrificing their own self. The ones that do are the ones that last a long time because they arent in it for themselves but are looking to be together with their mate to increase what they love about them and make it better. Even if it means stepping aside and not being the one that is the answer or the solution. In my opinion, if a couple can surround themselves with others to increase their relationship without any kind of jealousy but have trust then more power too them.
 
Hey Amnesiac. :wavingguy "Intellectualicious!" I love it - I'm totally keeping that one! 😀

You brought up a lot of things, so I'll just focus on a few.

Amnesiac said:
How do you figure that "society restricts the dating pool?"

2 methods: legislative and prejudicial....
I suppose. But it still seems to me that you can find the appropriate subpool to suit your needs, if you know where to look. That's why we have munches in the tickling community, the poly community, the BDSM community, etc. And I can't say I see much in the way of an "exploitative criminal element" in any of those places. 😛 As for the fuck buddy problem... yeah, I acknowledge that's a tough one, but only for men, and that's more of a supply-and-demand issue.

Similarly, sexual jealousy might have been advantagous to our evolutionary ancestors...but in the modern age of birth control, trust, and verbal communication, jealousy doesn't have to control our behavior now.

Besides, there's still some biology involved in jealousy; you ever get jealous about someone and no amount of logic or argument could change your emotional responses? I'm not a jealous person at all and even THAT's happened to me. It might be similar to the feeling a dog gets when a hand reaches for his bowl; something instinctual says "(s)he's gonna take your stuff."
Sure - you can't necessarily control your gut emotional reaction. What you can do is decide whether or not that reaction is going to control your behavior. Even a dog can be trained not to snap at you when you take away his food.

Not long ago, I told a close friend and play partner about some new and (for me) unprecedented experiences I'd recently had with other people. I then asked him if he perceived hearing about these experiences as a positive, negative, or neutral thing. If I understood him correctly, he said that any instinctual jealousy reaction took a backseat to the opportunity to learn something new about me, and for us to grow closer because of that.

In other words, I fully understand the instinctual flashes of jealousy. I occasionally experience them myself. But the thinking part of me, and even the higher-level emotional part of me, knows that the richness I gain in my life through my partners, and the richness they gain in their lives with people other than me, is much more important and meaningful.

Well, that's the way everybody feels in a relationship, and for different reasons.
Maybe, but I think you're overgeneralizing. Our culture has trained us that the monogamous couple is the ideal. My experience was simply (or not so simply) to try to look at my relationship honestly, trying to see what was really there, and not just go with the cultural assumption. My husband and I found our way onto this path on our own, through our own introspection and experimention. Easier said than done perhaps, but certainly possible.

You ever see 2 people "in total wuv" and think its cute...and then see them years later and they're still "In total wuv" and you say "Damn, how'd that happen?"
Yes. 🙂 And I certainly wouldn't go suggesting polyamory to them. I don't believe it's right for everyone. This thread isn't about trying to push this lifestyle on the majority. The purpose is for those of us who do live this way to share our experiences with others who might be curious.

sexually rewarding activities don't have to involve the exchange of bodily fluids.

Yeah but...it's REALLY fun when they do.
😀 Yes, but they can also be fun when they don't. As one of my favorite play partners likes to say, "I'm enjoying wanting you."

Check out http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?t=79105&page=8&pp=15 as it seems to have more relation to this than belongs here.
Hmm. If you say so, but I'm not really seeing it.
 
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