Lakers miss playoffs for first time in over 10 years

[vampirecult]

It's almost the NBA Playoffs (April 23th i believe). and we're still having this on going topic about the soap saga of Shaq and Kobe? 🙄

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

Vampirecult- good topics die hard. I just found it today and thought I should throw my 2 cents worth into it since I am an advid sports fan. 🙂

 

[vampirecult]

Vampirecult- good topics die hard. I just found it today and thought I should throw my 2 cents worth into it since I am an advid sports fan. 🙂

Fair enough. Then let's talk about other NBA teams then if we're gonna be talking about Shaq fu and Kobe

Sebastian Telfair (Stephen marburys little cousin)

 

[primetime]

the Shaq-Kobe feud keeps going because the media wants to keep it going. Shaq is always blasting the Lakers, the media keeps hammering on it, the ONLY person in this feud that doesnt talk about it is Kobe Bryant. considering the fact that everyone seems to hate Kobe, you have to admire the way that he has handled himself. he doesnt say anything negative about Shaq (if it were me, i would blast that lazy bastard every day) and he just wants to play basketball.

but always remember this, the Lakers may be down, but we WILL be back. how many of you others can say that with confidence?

 

[vampirecult]

but always remember this, the Lakers may be down, but we WILL be back. how many of you others can say that with confidence?

Yeah if Phil Jackson mr. cocky comes back and coaches your team the La Lakers. The Lakers are kind of like the new york yankees in a way. Most people can not stand them (because money spending wise winning alot etc....) but at the end of the day you still have to respect them for what they do. Not this year your not like that (because of them missing the playoffs and having a failing season in the eyes of many la fans) but in years past they were always like that. so i give them credit where credit is do! i still don't like them though

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

the Shaq-Kobe feud keeps going because the media wants to keep it going. Shaq is always blasting the Lakers, the media keeps hammering on it, the ONLY person in this feud that doesnt talk about it is Kobe Bryant. considering the fact that everyone seems to hate Kobe, you have to admire the way that he has handled himself. he doesnt say anything negative about Shaq (if it were me, i would blast that lazy bastard every day) and he just wants to play basketball.

but always remember this, the Lakers may be down, but we WILL be back. how many of you others can say that with confidence?

Primetime I respect a lot of your posts but why aould Kobe say anything? Charged with rape( never proven ) chases the Big fella out of town by stating if he is here I am out of here. Then rips into Karl Malone one of the most respected players in the league. Then you call Shaq lazy? Correct me if I am wrong, Who worked hard enough to get his team to the playoffs? Who got the Lakers to the Finals last year through all the controversy? And who created that controversy? I believe if Kobe would have kept his sexual activites to just his wife then these problems never occur to begin with. The problem is Kobe wants to be the man. He just isn't though. If Shaq wins it all this year with the Heat then he proves he can win without Kobe. Can Kobe say the same without Shaq? I say know. It is just an opinion right now. I hope it becomes fact in June. I HATE the Heat. But this one year I will root for the Heat just so " silent Kobe" is proven wrong.

 

[vampirecult]

I think it was the owners and management to began with that split apart the Lakers and all it's remaining players NOT Kobe. It was the front office people for the Lakers the GM etc... that did the dirty work and made the final choices to split a part shaq and all the rest of the other playes on the La Lakers and to send them off to other nba teams around the league in the off season.

some of you may of course disagree with me though

 

[vampirecult]

2005 NBA Draft

Sun Ming Ming

18 years old 7' 8 1/2''

Sun's grasp on a basketball resembles most people holding a softball. (Joseph Rodriguez/©News & Record)



Quote:


Nearly 7-foot-9 player from China training for NBA in Greensboro
4-13-05

By Kellie Dixon, Staff Writer
News & Record

GREENSBORO — The hoop hangs within arm's reach of Sun Ming Ming.

Sun Ming Ming, whose head measures above most door frames, follows Keith Gatlin into Fitness by Design for a late morning workout. (Joseph Rodriguez/©News & Record)

The 7-foot-8 3/4 center positions himself under the basket and awaits a pass from trainer Keith Gatlin.

Ball in hand, Sun muscles his 350-pound frame into training partner Dshamal Schoetz, a 7-footer who played at Greensboro College who is nearly nine inches shorter. Sun pivots and places the ball firmly into the hoop. Swish.

Sun, who is from Harbin, China, is training in Greensboro for a shot at the NBA. His agent, Charles Bonsignore, paired the prospect up with former client and former professional basketball player Keith Gatlin. Gatlin, a managing partner with 334 Sports, a local firm that trains athletes, has worked with Sun for about five weeks.

"With his size, that intrigues everybody," Gatlin said. "He can really shoot the ball to be that size. The challenge for him now is to get mobile, to get up and down the court."

Sun also can handle the ball and has a sweet outside shot that swishes with the quick flick of his wrist. When it comes to dunking, he doesn't need to leave the ground.

Basketball, Gatlin will tell you, is not Sun's problem.

Sun's weakness is his flexibility and his lack of weight training. While playing for the Junior Olympic team and then Da Qing, his province's club squad, Sun never lifted weights and is just now building upper-body strength.

Trainer James Wilson, who coaches track and field at High Point University, has worked with Sun on his mobility for about five weeks.

During the first workout, the color drained from Sun's face, and he tired easily. Now Sun completes the workouts. His flexibility has improved to where he can lift his knees higher, and he gets up and down the court smoother.

Wilson said Sun is young in terms of his training years.

"I treat him like he is a high school senior lifting weights," Wilson said. "You build from that. ... There's a progression that you need to go. You can't just go everyday hard, hard, hard. It just doesn't work like that."

Sometimes the language barrier can be a problem, Wilson said, because Sun is mentally tough and wants to complete the workouts. An "OK" from Sun isn't always good enough for Wilson, who looks for other signs. Is he wincing? Is there color in his face?

"You push a person, but you don't want to push a person where they get injured, and that happens with a lot athletes with a lot of willpower," Wilson said. "It's better to undertrain than overtrain."

The risk of injury is too great, especially with NBA teams already asking about Sun. The possibility of making the NBA thrills Sun, who is happily working toward his future.

"I have more opportunities here," Sun said through interpreter Hsiao-Yin Chu. "I have the opportunity to play with the best players in the world and get into good basketball."

Bonsignore saw the raw potential while watching Sun play for the Junior Olympic team in China and again when he played for Da Qing.

"More than anything I saw his size," Bonsignore said. "I just thought it was a complete waste of a kid's life: That he's so big, and they don't have the resources to train him."

That's why Bonsignore asked Gatlin to train Sun. Gatlin spent eight years playing professional ball in Europe, so he understands what it's like to adjust to a new culture.

"Keith believes in basically the old style of basketball fundamentals," Bonsignore said. "With his personality and demeanor, I knew he'd make Sun comfortable."

Since arriving in North Carolina in early March, Sun has become more comfortable with his surroundings, particularly around his support team and host family Rocky and Celeste Manning, friends of Gatlin's.

During the week, Sun climbs into the back seat of Gatlin's SUV and rides to the Greensboro Sportsplex or Fitness by Design. His days are devoted to basketball, but he spends the evenings lounging around the Manning's house in Summerfield. He is another member of the Manning family whether he's cooking on the grill, driving the golf cart or writing in his journal.

The Mannings don't speak Chinese, but sign language does the trick.

"He's been great," Rocky Manning said. "He totally changed from when he first came here. He didn't seem that happy, but now he smiles and laughs and knows a couple hundred words in English. He's a very smart guy."

Sun will stay in Greensboro until May when he'll return to China for 45 days to play in the national games with his club team. He is expected to return in June for the NBA Draft, but Bonsignore isn't interested in hyping Sun's situation because it could create unfair comparisons to recent China product Yao Ming.

If Sun is drafted in June, Bonsignore hopes he'll be picked by a team willing to develop Sun's skills.

If he's not drafted, he will become a free agent, and Bonsignore said they will consider taking next year to continue building his skills.

"If a team doesn't show that they are willing to be patient," Bonsignore said, "we'll just wait and show him when he's ready."

 

[primetime]

if anyone truly thinks it was because of Shaquille Oneal who got the Lakers to the NBA Finals last year, then you know nothing of Laker basketball. there was no way in hell Shaq carried the Lakers to the NBA Finals last year. it was the Laker team! different guys showed up to make their run possible. who can forget Derek Fisher's .4 second shot to save the Laker season? who can forget Karl Malone's valuable leadership. who can forget Kobe Bryant's heroics? in fact, it was Kobe Bryant that won the Pacific Division title for the Lakers when he hit not one, but TWO buzzer beaters against Portland. that gave the Lakers the #2 seed in the playoffs instead of #3. if it wasnt for Kobe Bryant's heroics, the Lakers get SWEPT in the NBA Finals.

it drives me crazy that people think it was Shaq ONLY who was responsible for getting the Lakers to the playoffs and the NBA Finals. people, if you claim that, you really werent paying attention. that Laker team was carried by NO ONE. it took a tremendous team effort to get to the playoffs. no one gives Kobe his due for what he has done for the Lakers. i remember last year, when Kobe was hitting game winner after game winner after game winner, i told almost anyone who would listen, SIGN KOBE BRYANT. now, i didnt think Shaq would leave, but you do NOT let Kobe go. Kobe can win games for teams. Shaq cant. Shaq is a LIABILITY in a close game. all you have to do is foul him. he says he makes free throws when they count, fact is, he DOESNT. if the Lakers are down by one or two or even three points and have the final possession, guess who gets the ball? that's right, Kobe Bryant. if you give it to Shaq, do you trust him to make free throws? NO. i wouldnt.

the Lakers were not a Shaq only team. i keep saying it over and over and over. it is because of Kobe Bryant the Lakers make it past the Spurs as Shaq is controlled with them. it has been Kobe Bryant's heroics that killed the Spurs. no Kobe, Lakers DO NOT BEAT THE SPURS. repeat. without Kobe Bryant, the Lakers DO NOT BEAT THE SPURS. is Kobe soley responsible for the Lakers success? OF COURSE NOT. if Robert Horry doesnt hit that 3 pointer against Sacramento, the Lakers do not make it past the Sac Kings. no ONE guy is responsible for the Laker title runs.

as for the Heat, yeah they have a great record, but consider the fact that the East is CRAPPY. the Chicago Bulls (i know, go figure) have the 3rd best record in the East. if they played in the West, they would be tied for EIGHTH. the #3 seed in the East, the Boston Celtics wouldnt even be in the playoffs. so, the Heat got fat on a crappy conference, while the Lakers had to fight in the West. dont let the Heat fool you. the Heat are good, but they arent THAT good. hell, the Dallas Mavericks are 1 win away from matching the Heat's record. the Phoenix Suns have no Shaq and they have the best record in the NBA AND play in the toughest conference. let's see what happens when they play Detroit in the playoffs....

 

[vampirecult]

Wow your really obsessed over the Lakers aren't you primetime. They will bounce back they always do (after all there the La Lakers) come on. Just because they missed the playoffs for the first time in over 10 years and they have all this off court trouble with shaq and kobe and legal matters. Does not mean that they will suck like the Atlanta Hawks from now on. I don't see that ever happening in the near seasons at all. keep and hold the faith man

 

[tickletoy3]

I think the original title of this thread says it all. Point is, you win you make the playoffs. You don't, you stay home. Doesn't matter which conference you are in, doesn't matter what any other team does. You win, you make the playoffs. The great awesome mighty Kobe couldn't get it done. He - and the Lakers - are staying home this year.

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

Yeah Primetime. I know who did what. But there were games when Shaq carried the team while Kobe was doing his I will have sex with anyone but my beautiful wife thing. The girl was probably trying to make some money off of his name but he still had sex with the lady. Dumb. Very dumb. He was the reason there were problems in Laker Country. You can't deny that. If you do then it is you that knows nothing. Kobe should have done some bailing out. He created the situation. Do you hear any problems out of Miami? I know I hear from Kobe with this whole Karl Malone thing. Then Kobe acts jealous in regards to his wife. Did anyone ask where his loyality to his wife was the year before. But poor Kobe. Let's cry a river of tears for him. But lets watch Shaq play in the playoffs while Kobe goes and has sex with someone else.

 

[vampirecult]

Hmmm thinks. With all this NBA Talk going on still i should just make a NBA Draft thread then to see what we all have to dicuss about it.


(even though the playoffs haven't even began yet)

 

[tickletoy3]

If you don't win - you don't make the playoffs. Doesn't matter what conference you are in. Doesn't matter what the other teams do. Without Kobe the Lakers do not beat the Spurs? What a joke. Without Shaq the Lakers don't win enough games to worry about it.

 

[primetime]

one day, people are going to realize that Shaq doesnt carry teams. how can he if he is a LIABILITY in the 4th quarter of a close game? case in point: Miami played the Philadephia 76ers recently and the game was close. Miami could have pulled closer to the 76ers as they were down by 2 or 3 points and Shaq has the ball. he gets fouled, now it is time for free throws. can Shaq, who always says "i make them when they count", sink these IMPORTANT free throws? he BRICKS THEM BOTH. you cant count on him in the clutch. if Dwyane Wade is injured or fouls out and the game is close, it WONT be Shaq to save them.

as for MVP, Steve Nash totally deserves the award. if it wasnt for him, the Suns would still be crappy.....

give credit where credit is due. it took the LAKER team to win those titles. not Shaq, not Kobe, but the team. hell, you might as well say it was Phil. Shaq did do squat until Phil got there.....neither did Michael Jordan.... something to think about.

 

[tickletoy3]

Ok, I've heard "Shaq doesn't carry a team" and "If not for Kobe the Lakers get swept in the Finals" and finally "Shaq is a liability".. ok folks, here are some stats and facts from last year's Finals. After seeing the FACTS and STATS you be the jury and tell me who actually showed up.. Shaq or Kobe?

Game1: Shaq had 34 points and goes 13-16. The remaining Lakers go 16 of 57 for 28%. They made only three more shots than Shaq actually made and shot 57! Kobe had 25 points on 10-27. In other words, he took 11 more shots (that's 22 potential points) than Shaq and scored 9 points less. Mitch are you watching?? The Lakers still lose.. hmm.. wonder why people?

Game 2: The game Kobe supposedly "won" with last minute heroics to keep LA from the brooms. Try this: After their listless performance in Game 1, one had to wonder whether the Lakers had enough left for a comeback. Lost in the excitement of Bryant's heroics was Shaquille O'Neal's bucket and a Ben Wallace foul with 35.9 seconds left.

Shaq, who's shooting .427 from the line for the playoffs through Game 1, hit the free throw to bring the Lakers within three and set up Bryant's shot. O'Neal is 17-for-26 (.654) from the line in the Finals.

So Shaq misses the free throw and there IS NO KOBE SHOT and there is no overtime. Hmm.. and he's a liability? Can't hit from the charity line when it counts? ok.. (scratching head)

In this game Shaq scored 29 points, breaking Michael Jordan's record of 20 straight FINALS games with 25 or more points. Yeh, that's a liability for you. Mitch are you actually watching this game?? Shaq was 10-20 and Kobe was 14-27 from the field.

Game 3

Shaq 14 points on 14 field goals. His worst ever in the playoffs. Kobe? 11 points. The Lakers shot 27 three pointers (Kobe was 0-4 from 3pt land) that game as the rest of the Lakers (after Shaq) shot just 22% for the game. Shaq was 7-14 while Kobe was 4-13. Mitch are you watching?? Admittedly, this was a terrible game for Shaq (even though he did still shoot 50%). The "rest of the Lakers" have no room to complain. Look at the stats.

Game 4: Shaq 36 points and 20 boards. That's freaking awesome. The ONLY other player to do that in the finals was Tim Duncan. Kobe? 20 points, 32% on 8-25 shooting. Shaq was 16-21 while Kobe was a whopping 8-25. Hello?? MITCH ARE YOU ACTUALLY WATCHING THIS GAME?? Yes folks, the Lakers still lose. Seeing a pattern yet?

Game 5: This is the ONLY game other than game 2, where Kobe's play was comparable to that of Shaq. Large partly because of Shaq's early foul trouble. Shaq had 20 points going 7-14 (50% from the field with 6 free throws) where Kobe had 24 on 7-21 (33%) shooting and 10 free throws. Note: after Shaq had early foul trouble and was sitting the bench - the Pistons scored 8 straight points and led 15-14. Hmm.. can't blame that one on him. Then again if he's a "liability" would it matter he was on the bench? At this point, I really think Shaq had the attitude of "To heck with it. Why am I busting my ass if the rest of the guys don't even show up?" And you really wonder where he gets his attitude? Wouldn't you get tired of busting your chops when every game you are shooting 50+% and the rest of the team shoots 20+%?? Gee go figure that one.

Did Mitch Kupchek even watch the Finals? Did Laker management?? And they actually said "We will do whatever is necessary to keep Kobe." ???.. NO WONDER Shaq had the attitude he did. I think I would have told them where to go too! If Shaq would have had any help at all, the Lakers would still be world champs. Look at the stats above people, that's FACT. If Kobe had hit anywhere near half of the shots he took, and the rest of the Lakers had bothered to show up, the outcome of the finals might have been a different story. No one player alone can win you games (see proof above), but certain players can carry teams. For LA - Shaq was definitely that player. Compare the stats and facts people. Now if you had to choose between Shaq and Kobe who would you HONESTLY pick? Look at the stats in the Finals - when the games count most of all - and decide. Then, tell me who carried this team.

Even Phil Jackson said he would choose Shaq to begin a dynasty. The man has a 72% winning percentage as coach. His record is 832-316. His 175 playoffs wins are the best ever. His 71% coaching success in the postseason is the NBAs best. His nine NBA titles tie the record for the most - and he did it with different teams - and different players. My point? Umm.. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to players.

Also as a side note (this has nothing to do with basketball).. how can Kobe complain that Malone is flirting with his wife.. and Kobe is sleeping around behind her?? WTF??

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

Ok, I've heard "Shaq doesn't carry a team" and "If not for Kobe the Lakers get swept in the Finals" and finally "Shaq is a liability".. ok folks, here are some stats and facts from last year's Finals. After seeing the FACTS and STATS you be the jury and tell me who actually showed up.. Shaq or Kobe?

Game1: Shaq had 34 points and goes 13-16. The remaining Lakers go 16 of 57 for 28%. They took only three more shots than Shaq actually made. Kobe had 25 points on 10-27. In other words, he took 11 more shots (that's 22 potential points) than Shaq and scored 9 points less. Mitch are you watching?? The Lakers still lose.. hmm.. wonder why people?

Game 2: The game Kobe supposedly "won" with last minute heroics to keep LA from the brooms. Try this: After their listless performance in Game 1, one had to wonder whether the Lakers had enough left for a comeback. Lost in the excitement of Bryant's heroics was Shaquille O'Neal's bucket and a Ben Wallace foul with 35.9 seconds left.

Shaq, who's shooting .427 from the line for the playoffs through Game 1, hit the free throw to bring the Lakers within three and set up Bryant's shot. O'Neal is 17-for-26 (.654) from the line in the Finals.

So Shaq misses the free throw and there IS NO KOBE SHOT and there is no overtime. Hmm.. and he's a liability? Can't hit from the charity line when it counts? ok.. (scratching head)

In this game Shaq scored 29 points, breaking Michael Jordan's record of 20 straight FINALS games with 25 or more points. Yeh, that's a liability for you. Mitch are you actually watching this game?? Shaq was 10-20 and Kobe was 14-27 from the field.

Game 3

Shaq 14 points on 14 field goals. His worst ever in the playoffs. Kobe? 11 points. The Lakers shot 27 three pointers (Kobe was 0-4 from 3pt land) that game as the rest of the Lakers (after Shaq) shot just 22% for the game. Shaq was 7-14 while Kobe was 4-13. Mitch are you watching?? Admittedly, this was a terrible game for Shaq (even though he did still shoot 50%). The "rest of the Lakers" have no room to complain. Look at the stats.

Game 4: Shaq 36 points and 20 boards. That's freaking awesome. The ONLY other player to do that in the finals was Tim Duncan. Kobe? 20 points, 32% on 8-25 shooting. Shaq was 16-21 while Kobe was a whopping 8-25. Hello?? MITCH ARE YOU ACTUALLY WATCHING THIS GAME?? Yes folks, the Lakers still lose. Seeing a pattern yet?

Game 5: This is the ONLY game other than game 2, where Kobe's play was comparable to that of Shaq. Large partly because of Shaq's early foul trouble. Shaq had 20 points going 7-14 (50% from the field with 6 free throws) where Kobe had 24 on 7-21 (33%) shooting and 10 free throws. Note: after Shaq had early foul trouble and was sitting the bench - the Pistons scored 8 straight points and led 15-14. Hmm.. can't blame that one on him. Then again if he's a "liability" would it matter he was on the bench? At this point, I really think Shaq had the attitude of "To heck with it. Why am I busting my ass if the rest of the guys don't even show up?" And you really wonder where he gets his attitude? Wouldn't you get tired of busting your chops when every game you are shooting 50+% and the rest of the team shoots 20+%?? Gee go figure that one.

Did Mitch Kupchek even watch the Finals? Did Laker management?? And they actually said "We will do whatever is necessary to keep Kobe." ???.. NO WONDER Shaq had the attitude he did. I think I would have told them where to go too! If Shaq would have had any help at all, the Lakers would still be world champs. Look at the stats above people, that's FACT. If Kobe had hit anywhere near half of the shots he took, and the rest of the Lakers had bothered to show up, the outcome of the finals might have been a different story. No one player alone can win you games (see proof above), but certain players can carry teams. For LA - Shaq was definitely that player. Compare the stats and facts people. Now if you had to choose between Shaq and Kobe who would you HONESTLY pick? Look at the stats in the Finals - when the games count most of all - and decide. Then, tell me who carried this team.

Even Phil Jackson said he would choose Shaq to begin a dynasty. The man has a 72% winning percentage as coach. His record is 832-316. His 175 playoffs wins are the best ever. His 71% coaching success in the postseason is the NBAs best. His nine NBA titles tie the record for the most - and he did it with different teams - and different players. My point? Umm.. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to players.

Also as a side note (this has nothing to do with basketball).. how can Kobe complain that Malone is flirting with his wife.. and Kobe is sleeping around behind her?? WTF??

I want you to know that I have defended Shaq and those stats back me up for my defending him. I want to say thank you. Very well done. I like your ending too. He sleeps around on his wife then he gets jealous? Give me a break. Kobe is a spoiled brat who cares about nobody but himself. Well like I said earlier, Kobe can watch Shaq in the playoffs with Miami. I am not a fan of Shaq or the Heat but I will root them on to win it all. And even if they don't we already know Shaq is the MAN. He got his team to the playoffs while Kobe got his team an early vacation. I will take Shaq over Kobe and find myself a winner everytime. I must stress once again I am a Knicks fan who was and still is a Patrick Ewing fan. Everyone blames Patrick for not getting the Knicks a title but what everyone forgets is that the Knicks don't make the playoffs without Patrick Ewing. Kobe and the Lakers took the big man for granted. When you score 30 points and 15 rebounds a game you just can't replace those numbers

 

[tickletoy3]

*small correction on the game one stats. I have edited it in the original post.

Game1: Shaq had 34 points and goes 13-16. The remaining Lakers go 16 of 57 for 28%. They made only three more shots than Shaq actually made - and shot 57!

I repeat: Did Mitch and Laker management even watch the Finals???

 

[primetime]

did either of you, tickletoy or ticklingfeet4u, realize what you posted? look at the stats you posted. Shaq had great numbers, yet the Lakers still lose. Kobe Bryant had subpar numbers and the Lakers lose. so, couldnt you say if Kobe was Kobe, the Lakers win? wouldnt Kobe had been the difference maker if his stats were better? so, who really was the important piece?

now, why did Kobe have poor stats? he just decided to show up in the Finals and tank? NO. both of you have forgotten what caused Kobe's bad showing. it is called the Detroit Piston defense. Kobe Bryant was constantly triple teamed all series long. first, you have condor arm Tayshaun Prince guarding him, if Kobe made it past him, the Chauncey Billups was in his face. IF Kobe made it past him, then Rasheed Wallace or some other Piston was in his face. Larry Brown decided that there was no way in hell Kobe Bryant was going to beat them. here's a shocker and i hope you BOTH realize this. Larry Brown decided to SINGLE COVER Shaquille O'Neal. SINGLE COVER??????!!!!! when was the last team to SINGLE COVER Shaq the whole game? Shaq usually faces double and triple teams a LOT. but Detroit dedicated their defensive game plan to stopping Kobe Bryant, NOT Shaquille Oneal. why? because Shaq cant beat you like Kobe can. look at game 2. tickletoy, you say Shaq hit A free throw. he is SUPPOSED to make them BOTH. again, if it wasnt for Kobe's heroics to tie the game and HIS DOMINANCE in overtime, the Lakers get swept. FACT. PERIOD. write it down, pay attention and learn it.

Detroit will employ the same game plan when the Heat faces the Pistons. single cover Shaq, STOP Dwyane Wade and prevent their shooters from killing them. Shaq can score a lot, but those others, ESPECIALLY Wade, will not beat them.

by the way, it wasnt because of Shaq the Lakers made the playoffs. HELLO? Shaq missed a bunch of games during the season. remember that? of course not. i guess Kobe, GP, and the rest of the Lakers sat back and watch Shaq score. yeah right. again, take away Kobe Bryant and the Lakers fail to make it out the first round.

i dont care how much you love Shaq, you HAVE to give Kobe his due. he played a MAJOR part in their three championships. it wasnt about Shaq ONLY. Kobe is a game winner. without him, the Lakers DO NOT, i repeat, DO NOT win a championship. Shaq dominates for three quarters, then Kobe takes over in the 4th. no one can stop Kobe Bryant. he makes free throws. notice there is no such thing as "Hack-a-Kobe". see, as much as you dont like Kobe, you wont give him credit. i KNOW Shaq was an important part, but he didnt carry the team. Kobe didnt carry the team. it was a combination of them both. look at the Heat now. they are supposed to be peaking and they are losing games. the Pistons are peaking right now. let's see what happens when they face off. if Shaq DOES NOT win a championship, that MYTH of him being responsible for championships will go away. the only way i will excuse him losing is if Dwyane Wade goes down to injury. because if he does, the Heat ARE DONE. if Shaq gets hurt, they will actually have a chance still. no Wade, NO CHANCE.

as for the Kobe-Karl Malone thing. now, if you signed a 140 million dollar contract and your wife is still pissed at your whole cheating thing and you want to prevent from having that 140 million dollar contract become a 70 million dollar contract, you will be your wife's BITCH. Kobe HAS to defend her, otherwise, half of his assets go to Vanessa. yes, he's a punk right now to his wife, but losing 70 million dollars? yeah, i would yell at Karl too. by the way, how come neither of you are upset that Karl even came on to Vanessa? Karl did admit he did.......ah yes, Kobe haters never pay attention to details. just blind rage......

 

[tickletoy3]

Shaq had great numbers, yet the Lakers still lose. Kobe Bryant had subpar numbers and the Lakers lose. so, couldnt you say if Kobe was Kobe, the Lakers win?

That's the point. If Kobe was so great, why would he be subpar? Shaq did his part. Where was the great Kobe? Where were the rest of the Lakers for that matter? 20+% from the field?? So they double-triple Kobe.. was LA a two man team??

both of you have forgotten what caused Kobe's bad showing. it is called the Detroit Piston defense.

Once again, more excuses for Kobe. Did Michael Jordan complain when every team in the league triple teamed him in the finals? Did you see HIS numbers drop?? Oh wait - he actually tried PASSING the ball when that happened. Also, if beating LA was a simple as "let Shaq score, just stop Kobe".. don't you think every team in the league would have tried that? I expected more from you PT.

you say Shaq hit A free throw. he is SUPPOSED to make them BOTH.

In this case he only made one because he made a basket while being fouled. It's called a 3 point play. The 3 point play that set up Kobe's shot that led to overtime.

if it wasnt for Kobe's heroics to tie the game and HIS DOMINANCE in overtime, the Lakers get swept.

If Shaq missed his free throw on the 3 point play, there would have been no 'heroics' to worry about. And if Kobe had showed up the other 4 quarters, instead of shooting just over 20% for the game with the rest of the Lakers, there would have been no overtime - because the Lakers would have already won. FACT. PERIOD. write it down, pay attention and learn it.

by the way, it wasnt because of Shaq the Lakers made the playoffs.

PT buddy, that has to be the absolutely funniest thing you have ever posted on this topic. You also said Shaq couldn't carry a team - yet you stated "Let Shaq dominate for three quarters." Umm.. I think that's pretty much 'carrying' a team.

Kobe is a game winner.

And the Lakers record this year was.. ??

if Shaq DOES NOT win a championship, that MYTH of him being responsible for championships will go away.

Didn't that happen last year?? Unlike Mitch and Lakers management - the rest of us actually watched the Finals.


by the way, how come neither of you are upset that Karl even came on to Vanessa? Karl did admit he did.......ah yes, Kobe haters never pay attention to details. just blind rage......

Maybe Karl didn't think such a pretty woman should be mistreated or ignored. Can you blame him? Big deal. He flirted. What is there to get upset about? She had the option of saying "no". It's not like he tried to rape her.

Here's a frightening thought: Suppose Shaq had not even bothered to show up in the Finals? Or shoot 20+% like the rest of the team? That would have been the most embarassing loss in NBA Finals history.


I repeat: Did Mitch or Lakers management even watch the Finals??

 

[primetime]

wait, wait, wait, wait. you're asking if Laker management watched the Finals. did you? ask yourself, if Shaq was so dominant and it was because of him the Lakers made the playoffs, why did the Lakers lose in the Finals? you're saying Kobe had subpar numbers. so? Shaq is there. what does Kobe's subpar numbers have anything to do with it? he wasnt the reason the Lakers were in the Finals. Kobe had NOTHING to do with the Lakers success at all remember? it is all about Shaq. as long as he's there, the Lakers will win right? or just maybe Kobe was a bit more important than you think....

as for Michael Jordan not complaining about triple teams and beating them. Kobe isnt Michael. we all know that. what's your point?

can you tell me why Detroit would dedicate their game plan to stopping Kobe Bryant instead of Shaq? after all, Shaq is the reason the Lakers made the Finals.

as for this year. this Laker team was entirely new. Devean George missed over 60 games. Slava Medevenko is........Slava Medevenko. Luke Walton is a 2nd year player. that means the only guy from that championship era is Kobe Bryant. who was the coach? Rudy T. did he stay the entire year? no. so, you have a new team, Kobe misses 14 games because of an injury and the coach resigns midway through the year and people are surprised the Lakers didnt make the playoffs? people amaze me. as soon as Tomjanovich stepped down, the season was over as far as i was concerned. it was going to take a miracle for them to make the playoffs.

as for Malone, he never intended to come back to the Lakers. Karl has had people blast him for decades and he has ONE tiff with Kobe Bryant and now he cant play with him? Karl says he and Kobe were "buddies". one fight and Karl leaves. Karl admitted he flirted and because Kobe reacted, he leaves? Kobe never told him to NOT play for the Lakers. it was a personal issue between the two and Karl leaves. he never intended to play this year, that was his way out.

you cant go back and forth on this. stay with your argument. you are basically telling me that it was Shaq who was responsible for the Laker success. Kobe had nothing to do with it. so, if Shaq's numbers were great in the Finals, how do the Lakers lose? how do the Lakers lose during the 1996-97, 97-98, 99 seasons if Shaq was the reason for the success? admit it, Kobe had a HUGE part of the success. without him, there are no titles. i will admit, no Shaq, no titles. but it wasnt BECAUSE of him they won. no, it took BOTH of them. neither one wins without the other. FACT. learn it......

 

[tickletoy3]

First off, I never said Kobe played no part in the Lakers success. Have you even read my earlier posts? I was simply stating from the beginning that Shaq was the Leader of this team -something that Kobe has NEVER given him credit for, or respected him for in that regard - and Shaq was 'primarily' responsible - not totally responsibile for - that success. That's what LEADERS do. That's why they are called leader and team captain. That's not a slam on Kobe or putdown on Kobe. If anyone was disrespectful here, it was Kobe to Shaq.

How do you pick a guy who shoots 20%+ in the Finals, the biggest games of the year - over a team leader who shoots 50%+? Did you watch the Finals? In fact, the only one who did anything in the Finals for the Lakers was Shaq - not Kobe - not anyone else. Check the stats. Yet Laker management says "we will do whatever is necessary to keep Kobe." Apparently they didn't watch the Finals or didn't pay attention to who did what on the court.

If you read my post, that was my point. If Shaq had any help at all the Lakers would still be world champs. To some extent you are correct. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. After watching the finals and reviewing the stats (which apparently Laker management didn't bother with) - we both know where the weak link was - and it certainly wasn't Shaq. But look at the stats and tell that to Laker management.

As far as MJ goes, I made the comparison completely out of no regards for Michael and I owe him a personal apology. Anyone who compares MJ with Kobe has to plead temporary insanity. I made the comparison to say Michael simply PASSED the ball when double-triple teamed. Was LA a 2 man team?? He didn't shoot 20% then complain and tell the world they single covered Bill Cartwright or Scottie Pippen so they could shut him down. Michael never whined or complained and made excuses. On this point, you are absolutely correct. This proves Kobe will never be a Michael.

No one man can win games alone. Not Shaq. Not Kobe. Not Michael. That's common knowledge with sports fans. BUT one man can lead a team to success. Shaq has, Michael has and so far Kobe has not. Shaq won in Orlando without Kobe. Shaq won in Miami without Kobe. Every team Shaq has been part of has been successful. Not entirely, solely and completely by Shaq alone - but because Shaq is a leader who can lead his teammates to win games. That's proven FACT. Something Shaq-haters do not like to admit and something Kobe NEVER gave him credit for. But it's FACT. Learn it. Write it down. Pay attention.

If Shaq is fat, lazy, and disrespects management - do you really think he would have gotten that help?? Do you honestly think other teams would have even wanted him?? And if Shaq was so fat, lazy and disrespectful to management.. why on earth would any GM make him a team captain?? For that matter.. why would any team want him??? Again, illogical nonsense from Shaq-haters.

What has Kobe done without Shaq? Kobe with no Shaq has yet to do anything but sit home. What has Shaq done without Kobe? Made the playoffs with two other teams besides LA. My point here is that Shaq has always done his part. He's HELPED his teammates in big games. He's been a productive team leader and a productive team captain. This is a proven fact. So they lose the Finals even though Shaq produces 50+% from the field and Laker management treats him like dirt. Go figure.

And if your Detroit theory has any merit, why hasn't the entire league simply ran the "Let Shaq score and stop Wade" game plan against the Heat? If it's that easy, why not??

Maybe the reason Detroit double-triple Kobe and not Shaq is because they already knew they COULDN'T STOP SHAQ?? But once again, Shaq-haters fail to see the obvious. Why waste your time on something you are not going to do? Instead use and focus your energy accomplishing something that's possible - stopping Kobe. Do NFL defenses worry about stopping Peyton Manning? No they worry about stopping the running game because you are not going to stop Manning. It's called coaching logic.

Kobe is a good player and yes he can make big shots. Shaq just has a more proven record. The teams he has played on have been successful because he HELPED make them successful. He had help from Penny, Wade and yes even Kobe. I've never denied that and I've never said Shaq wins games alone. NO PLAYER DOES. But i do accept the fact he can win without Kobe. That's a testiment to his ability and leadership. He's done it with three completely different teams and coaches.

If anyone is not sticking to their argument, it is you. You say Shaq is fat, lazy and disrespectful to management, can't hit free throws and basically plays only when feels like it. Yet, then you say no Shaq, no titles and Kobe needs Shaq to win. You say Shaq can't carry a team, then you say he can dominate for three quarters. Inconsistent, my friend. You can't have it both ways.

Shaq can win without Kobe. He's done it in Orlando. Now he's done it in Miami. How many different coaches did he have? How many different players did he have to lead as a team captain?? How many different cities did he have to move to?? And during those years he was in LA, with different coaches and players, did the Lakers ever miss the playoffs??

He hasn't done it alone and I've always said that. Kobe tried to do it alone. He didn't need Shaq and he didn't need Phil, despite his comical cover up "I could play with Shaq and Phil forever." What a joke. Now he's seen reality. He was left as team leader with a different coach and different players. How was his result as compared to Shaq's under the same circumstances?? I'm not just talking about Miami this year, I'm talking about Shaq over his entire career. He's played with three completely different teams and so many different coaches and players you lose count. Yet he's still mentioned in the same phrase as "championship". I wonder why? Afterall, he's fat, lazy and can't hit free throws. Right? Gee, go figure. Shaq-haters will never get it. I guess the Miami Heat coaching staff, sports analysts, GMs and most NBA fans have no idea what they are talking about huh?

Wouldn't you be pissed if you went out every night and busted your ass shooting over 50 percent and everyone else shooting 20%? Then management treats the team loss like it was your fault? That's how Shaq felt. I don't blame him for leaving. A true leader takes responsibility. They don't whine about "the team left", "the coach left" and make excuses. In that respect, I feel badly for Shaq. He did what he had to do because he wasn't going to stay and get kicked around by a management team that obviously ignored facts and stats. But he never made excuses. He went to Miami and did what he's done all along. Helped and led yet another team to the playoffs. Did Wade help? Absolutely and most definitely. It takes teamwork to be successful.

Hopefully, Kobe learned that this year. If Kobe could get along with other players it might be a different story in LA. He's the one who thought he was team leader and doesn't need Shaq or Phil. It's no secret he didn't like Shaq and he never got along with Phil. Do you actually think it's just coincidence that all those players left after Shaq and Phil decided to leave? After Kobe's off-court antics do you honestly think any Laker player had much respect for him?? You have to lead on the court - and off. That's part of what made Shaq a leader, and Michael a leader.

After the departures, the remaining Laker players had to assess what was left of the organization. They knew where the bread and butter was - and yes, Kobe was the jam. And when Shaq and Phil departed, all that was left in LA was crumbs on the table and Kobe the fat crust with the big bucks. He did play a big part in the Lakers success, I'm not denying that and never have. As I said, he was the "jam". But he wasn't the leader and he wasn't the general. Yet he wants to be the highest paid player on the roster? That's because he actually thought he was that good. If anything this year has been a slap to reality for him. He got what he deserved.

Why is no one upset at Karl? Karl made a pass at Kobe's wife? So what? Obviously at this point, Karl had lost all respect for Kobe. You can't play with someone you can't respect. That was the problem with Shaq/Kobe and that was the problem here. Maybe he felt she shouldn't be ignored or abused. She's an attractive lady. He flirted. No big deal. She always had the option of saying "no". It's not like he tried to rape her.

I just never understood why Laker management treated Shaq like dirt and Kobe like the second coming? You admit yourself, no Shaq, no titles. What did Kobe do in the Finals? check the stats. I hear those crickets you were talking about. Then afterwards, they say "We will do whatever is necessary to keep Kobe." The guy who produces 20% during the Finals and spends most of his off-court time in legal court. You are right. People amaze me. It's amazing how 20% just lights up the scoreboard. If Shaq had played like the rest of the team the Lakers would have suffered the most embarassing loss in NBA Finals history. Kobe tanked under pressure and the rest of the Lakers never showed up. Yet Shaq plays his ass off and has stats that prove it - and he's the bad guy. People amaze me.

And I've proven the Myth about the game 2 'heroic'. No Shaq three point play and there are no heroics. Learn it.

No Kobe and the Lakers don't get past the Spurs? No Shaq and they don't win enough games to worry about it.

But Shaq's the bad guy. Let's get rid of him. People amaze me.

I think fact is, they kept Kobe thinking at worst they could trade him 2 or 3 years down the line. At that point Shaq is nearing retirement or on the downslide. So who is going to be the better value in financial terms? Kobe. He's younger and has many years down the road. This is not a putdown to Shaq. Even the great Jordan had to eventually leave the game.


Shaq hits over 50% in the Finals while the entire rest of the Lakers, including Kobe hit around 20%. Yet Shaq is the bad guy. Let's get rid of him.

Yeh PT, I really wonder if Laker management was actually watching the Finals. I did. I checked the stats that tell who did what on the court when it counts. They must have been watching the Laker Girls.

 

[primetime]

do you even understand where the whole "fat, lazy and disrespectful to management" came from? no one has said Shaq was like this his entire career. after the 1999-2000 season, did Shaquille Oneal put up the same numbers he did that year? no. did he or did he not say "why should i heal my injuries on my vacation? i will get surgery and recover during the SEASON." did Shaq not say "i will always do what's best for ME."? did he or did he not say "PAY ME!!" to Laker management during training camp? did he or did he not say "i am the General Manager of the Lakers."? did he or did he not say "you have to feed the big dog the ball to keep him happy."? Shaq has said ALL of these things. is this or is this not the words of a SELFISH, ARROGANT player? because if Kobe Bryant said those same things, we both know how he would have been treated.

if you were truly a Shaq fan and honest, then you KNOW Shaq was fat and out of shape. did you or did you not read Phil's comments about Shaq's weight and how he needs to come into camp IN SHAPE? did you or did you not hear countless media people, players, Phil Jackson and fans, yes fans, talk about how Shaq is fat and out of shape. this "fat and out of shape" concept wasnt born AFTER he left, it was done WELL BEFORE he left. Shaq has even said he is "saving" himself for the playoffs. a TRUE leader doesnt take games off. a TRUE leader comes into camp IN SHAPE and ready to work. a TRUE leader works on his game in the offseason (like free throws) to improve himself. a TRUE leader doesnt go spouting off in the media about not getting the ball and how he is the real General Manager of the Lakers. a TRUE leader supports his teammates in a crisis. a TRUE leader is not a liability in the 4th quarter and *sometimes* makes free throws. Shaq is NOT a TRUE leader.

the ONLY reason Shaq is dominant is because there is no other player his size. because he realizes this, he feels he shouldnt have to work hard. it is a known fact that Shaq was lazy and out of shape. my goodness man, take the blinders off and realize that Shaq is a great player, but he did NOT carry the Lakers. since you are so fascinated by stats, can you please pull up the stats in the San Antonio series and tell me who is responsible for beating the Spurs. you make a silly argument about Shaq getting the Lakers to the playoffs. well, i can continue to make the argument that Kobe carried the Lakers in the San Antonio series. we can go around and around, but bottom line, no Kobe, no San Antonio victory. no chance for Shaq to be "dominant" in the Finals.

now as for the Laker management signing Kobe Bryant at all costs. here is a player who still hasnt hit his prime, already has made heroic save after heroic save for the Lakers, doesnt actually SAY arrogant things in the media, works hard at his game ALL the time and you would just let him go? and keep a guy who doesnt respect you as an owner? Shaq's 33 year old, lazy ass would be GONE if i was the owner. BUT, it was SHAQ who demanded the trade. i know, i know, Mitch Kupchak said "we would listen to offers.." but he never SAID they were going to trade Shaq. oh, it's implied huh? how come everyone's words but Shaq's are always bad, but Shaq opens his mouth in arrogant ways and no one cares.

your Detroit rebuttal is laughable. you say they figured they couldnt stop Shaq. okay, the rest of the league decides to triple team him on a constant basis and the Spurs actually do an effective job of stopping him, so Detroit throws that out the window. maybe that's what the league should do. let Shaq do whatever he wants, but stop everyone else. again, WHY would Larry Brown focus his attention on Kobe Bryant if the way to beat the Lakers is stopping Shaq. why not focus his attention on Derek Fisher? why not Rick Fox? no, he focused on Kobe. WHY? because who could hurt them more? Shaq or Kobe? an opposing coach doesnt use double teams for fun. there is a strategic reason for it. and as for Mr. Peyton Manning, did you bother to watch the New England game?

i know you love Shaq, but get real. without a PLAYMAKER on his team, Shaq might make the playoffs. put Shaq on the Atlanta Hawks. do the Hawks make the playoffs with the SAME roster they have now? if they do, they are #8 in the East. Shaq needs help. he isnt a player of Michael Jordan's caliber. he isnt even a Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Shaq is a great player, but his attitude the last few years as a Laker opened him to scorn. we Laker fans didnt come up with this on our own. Shaq isnt innocent. you know the story of the Laker season. hell, Kobe himself even said it was going to be a struggle before the season started. i find it amazing that everyone thinks they know what Kobe means, but Shaq flat out says things and no one seems to care. i am still waiting for Kobe to say something arrogant like Shaq. all you got is "i want to be the highest paid player...." gee, what superstar basketball player hasnt said that?

your argument is Shaq is THE reason the Lakers were successful, but now you change it to "Shaq needed help". that's MY argument. Shaq is not THE reason for the Laker's success or the Heat's. are you going to change it again?

 

[vampirecult]

Final score of tonights game for the last game of the regular NBA season (for all the teams that aren't going to the playoffs that is)

Blazers 106 La. Lakers 103


Portland on top with the Win!


i love it

 

[tickletoy3]

Ok PT, 'ding ding' ring the bell. We both agree to shake hands and go to neutral corners. I think we both have valid points about our likes/dislikes in the whole Shaq/Kobe circus that was. As you said, we could go round-and-round this debate forever. Regardless, it's past history now and doesn't matter.

I like your opinions and respect your loyalty. You never back down when a lot of people would have folded. I have deep feelings for the Lakers also. I used to go see them at the Forum during the Magic-Kareem days. 🙄 Aaah the good 'ol days. If Kobe and Shaq could have had the same chemistry that Magic/Kareem had they would still be making rings and trophies with their names on them! Heck, they would probably have made a permanent mold.

I consider you a good friend PT. You have earned my respect with your loyalty. In a time of uncertainty and confusion, loyalty is hard to come by. I hope you feel the same. Feel free to PM me anytime to discuss anything you like.

Kobe is helping to rebuild the Lakers and Shaq is doing what he can given the limited time left in his career. We both have much to look forward to with the NBA.

I welcome any sports comments you might have, even wrestling-wise. Say, have you finished the ppv yet in your stories? I'm looking forward to the Sunny match and reading about Stacey.

See you at the matches my friend!

TT3